*That* line!

[elisi]

So, I’ve read a great number of posts about issue one of the ‘Season 8’ comics. Some like it, some hate it. But no one has done much about looking beneath the surface (and considering how short comics are, that’s not all that surprising). But me being me, I always - sooner or later - bring the meta. Even if it is just about a single line...

Enjoy!

(Cutting for the sake of spoiler phobes, but I think the line in question is rather neatly summed up by my icon! *g*)

“Great muppety Odin, I miss that sex.”

Yes, it made me laugh. I can also see why it makes some people cross, because it seems to mock our beloved Spike, and what he and Buffy had.

And then, yesterday, I suddenly looked at it again and went - hang on! This is Joss. And this is an important line - not to mention seriously weird at the same time. Surely it’s not just there for comic relief? And then - I remembered that Odin is the God of death...

So, I hunted him down on Wikipedia and found out that he’s the god of a lot of other things too:

Odin (Old Norse: Ódinn) is considered the chief god in Norse mythology and Norse paganism.

His name is related to ódr, meaning "mind", "excitation," "fury" or "poetry," and his role, like many of the Norse pantheon, is complex: he is god of wisdom, war, battle, and death. He is also attested as being a god of magic, poetry, prophecy, victory, and the hunt.

Odin is an ambivalent deity. Old Norse (Viking Age) connotations of Odin lie with "poetry, inspiration" as well as with "fury, madness."Odin gives to worthy poets the mead of inspiration, made by the dwarves, from the vessel Ód-rœrir.

Odin is associated with the concept of the Wild Hunt, a noisy, bellowing movement across the sky, leading a host of slain warriors.

Consistent with this, Snorri Sturluson's Prose Edda depicts Odin as welcoming the great dead warriors who have died in battle into his hall, Valhalla, which when literally interpreted, signifies the hall of the slain. These fallen, the einherjar, are assembled and entertained by Odin in order that they in return might fight for and support the gods in the final battle of the end of Earth, Ragnarök.

He is also a god of war, appearing throughout Norse myth as the bringer of victory. In the Norse sagas, Odin sometimes acts as the instigator of wars, and is said to have been able to start wars by simply throwing down his javelin Gungnir, and/or sending his valkyries, to influence the battle toward the end that he desires.

Ain’t that some interesting info? Most of which spells S-p-i-k-e to me... And you know what - I don’t think it’s coincidence. Not for one tiny little moment. Joss wants the comics to be considered canon, right? Well surely he’s doing his best to add some depth the the darn things!

Now the muppety bit is fairly simple... we have Count Dracula from The Muppets (obviously), as well as Angel turning into a puppet, both signifying the vampire element (not to mention that there'll soon be a comic with Spike as a puppet!) - and of course it also somewhat softens the great big serious warrior thing that Odin brings to the table. (Also - how incredibly cute would a Muppet Odin be? It really is a very funny line!)

So - there are layers, see? Buffy is thinking about her great fallen vampire warrior poet, and - being Buffy and the AR no longer being an issue at all, kthnx! - she misses the sex. ‘Cause you know - she never had it so good as him. Never.

And that is all the meta I can manage for now.

*bows*

ETA: I don't think Buffy knows much - if anything - about Norse mythology. It's pure meta - Joss using her odd turn of phrase to let us into her mind. It's sex with Spike the Champion (whom she loved) that she misses, not Spike the Convenient (whom she used).

Comments

[ruuger]

Some days, the way your mind works frightens me. But in a good way :)

(and when I read the comic, I didn't even think that line had anything to do with Spike until I found out that people were annoyed by it - apparently in my head Buffy was having an affair with Faith during S7).

[elisi]

Some days, the way your mind works frightens me. But in a good way :)
*grins proudly* I've been wanting to share my sudden insight ever since I first thought of it, but have been too busy until now! :)

apparently in my head Buffy was having an affair with Faith during S7).
Heeee! Although post-S7 might be a better shot!

[shapinglight]

Heh! Works for me. I didn't mind the line in question so much the second time I read it (the two pages with Buffy on her own are my favourites of the whole book) but it's nice to have some explanation of that Muppety Odin thing.

The main trouble for me with it is I'd really have to suspend my disbelief that Buffy would know that stuff (or care to know about it).

[elisi]

Heh! Works for me.
It's nice, isn't it! *g*

I'd really have to suspend my disbelief that Buffy would know that stuff (or care to know about it).
Oh I don't think she does (meant to add that to the post, must go fix). It's pure meta - like Tara's line about Quasimodo in 'Crush' - but put there by Joss to tell us something about what Buffy's feeling/thinking.

[prophecygirrl.livejournal.com]

*claps*

This line was rattling around in my skull all weekend. It irked me, and then it irked me that it irked me. But my mind kept going back to it, worrying it. I even convinced myself that they were introducing B/X with it, because it sounds more like a Xander line than a Buffy on (at least when you think about it too much). Thanks for metaing it into submission for me. Now it's just a dull, infrequent, throb.

[elisi]

*claps*
*bows again*

This line was rattling around in my skull all weekend. It irked me, and then it irked me that it irked me.
You and every other fan I'm guessing!

Thanks for metaing it into submission for me.
My pleasure. :)

[deborahc.livejournal.com]

it sounds more like a Xander line than a Buffy

That's what I thought too - that it sounded like something Xander would say. It sounds weird to me coming out of Buffy's mouth. Maybe, after all the years they've been friends, some Xander-speak has rubbed off on her. I haven't read the comic (any of them, for that matter), but I didn't think about it as laying the ground for eventual B/X. But canon comics make me very nervous for that very reason. Not because I'm afraid of B/X in particular, but of whatever happens in general, because I know that it won't be Spuffy.

[kathyh]

Overall I loved the comic and the line didn't annoy me particularly, but it did strike me as odd. I'm more inclined to think that Buffy's entire mindset in the comic is a little bit to do with Spike. She seems quite dislocated from her surroundings and is definitely mourning her life in Sunnydale and I see no reason why that shouldn't include mourning Spike whether the Odin reference is about him or not (and you make an interesting case for that :)). To be honest she seems far closer to the Buffy of post-NFA fanfics here than the Buffy of TGIQ seemed to be so I'm not sure what the annoyance is about.

[elisi]

it did strike me as odd.
That's because it's coded! (Should be said in a Lindsey voice...)

To be honest she seems far closer to the Buffy of post-NFA fanfics here than the Buffy of TGIQ seemed to be so I'm not sure what the annoyance is about.
::nods::

[adoxerella.livejournal.com]

*bows to your use of wiki-fu*

What a time for me to be too broke to buy comics *busts out the credit card and makes a sacrifice to Joss that the local comic store still has a copy*

I think you're right about the need to dig deeper here, especially since, at least out of context, the Odin line isn't really a Buffy sort of thing to say. I love her, but mythology geek, not so much. It is definitely a call for the meta.

Goodness do I lurve Joss.

[elisi]

*bows to your use of wiki-fu*
Hee! Being Scandinavian I should obviously have known all this already, but...

What a time for me to be too broke to buy comics
Before you go spending money you don't have, check your e-mail... [you never met me!]

I love her, but mythology geek, not so much. It is definitely a call for the meta.
Exactly. It's very bizarreness makes it suspicious.

Goodness do I lurve Joss.
Yeah...

[herself_nyc]

So are you assuming then that this implies she had sex with him again before the big End It All fight with The First? Because it seems kind of late for her to being missing the s6 sex.

[elisi]

So are you assuming then that this implies she had sex with him again before the big End It All fight with The First?
Oh yes. Joss of course leaves us with a fade-to-black, but he says on the commentary that people can fill in whatever they want:

...and to me it’s almost the most important shot in the show, because it shows the mystery of their relationship. And that’s one where I wanted the audience to fill in the blank - I wanted whatever you want to have happened, to have happened. If people believe that on their last night together they made love - great, if people believe that on their last night together they talked all night, if people believe they had a fight - great, whatever it is it’s up to the viewer. The viewer has earned that and I love that analytical nature... that there should be work for the viewer to do in that sense. Emotionally I think that makes it more textured, and that shot of the two of them looking at each other I just find that beautiful...
Joss, Chosen commentary

[empresspatti.livejournal.com]

Thank goodness I have you to read or I would have just given up on the whole thing.

Doubt I'll actualy buy the comics - $12-$14 seems a little high if it isn't a book -esp with everyone telling the story as it gets released.

You made me feel much better about the whole B/S thing - because I'd like to think that those two ended up together somehow. It just seems to me to be a good fit, yaknow?

[elisi]

Thank goodness I have you to read or I would have just given up on the whole thing.
Hee! (And what a compliment! Thank you!)

Doubt I'll actualy buy the comics
There *are* other ways... ::looks shifty::

because I'd like to think that those two ended up together somehow. It just seems to me to be a good fit, yaknow?
Yup.

[swsa.livejournal.com]

I liked the line alot, I think just because after S7 I had no doubts that Buffy cared for Spike deeply. I did think there were lingering doubts about whether she still wanted him the way she did in S6. So, for me? Question answered. Yay! Heee. But seriously, I know we're all reading WAY too much into it, but I also know that Joss knew the SECOND he put in any line about love or sex, it was going to be analyzed. And he knew that that line was going to make most of us immediately think of Spike. So I do take it as a little gift from him. And with as little Spike or Spuffy we're likely to get from this series, I'm grabbing onto every crumb he throws.

[elisi]

So, for me? Question answered. Yay! Heee.
Oh I was the same. But there are other out there, others of little faith...

But seriously, I know we're all reading WAY too much into it
But that's the fun of it! *g*

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

Awsome! this is the post I had been waiting for!!!

And let me tell ya how really ove how your mind works, since I pretty much went "what's the deal with everyone and the sex line? she's probably been too much around Xander lately and not in an sex way, Thank Joss!" Cause foregt the lack of explicit spuffy (Finest kind there is), Xuffy is what my nightmares are made of.

[elisi]

Awsome! this is the post I had been waiting for!!!
I am very happy to have brought it to you then. :)

Xuffy is what my nightmares are made of.
It's never going to happen!

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

All I remember about Odin was the he was top God (which sounds more like Angel than Spike) and had one eye (like Xander). Oh and an affinity with ravens but I think the only crows on the show were the ones Huss turned into when he wasn't being a bear. I think Spike would be more some kind of mutant hybrid of Loki and Thor (but without the hammer).

[elisi]

All I remember about Odin was the he was top God (which sounds more like Angel than Spike) and had one eye (like Xander).
Odin was top God - the God of Death. And since Buffy is thinking of her dead Champion, I think it's wonderfully fitting. (And he sacrificed one of his eyes at Mímir's spring in order to gain the wisdom of the ages - not very Xander at all!)

I think Spike would be more some kind of mutant hybrid of Loki and Thor (but without the hammer).
I'm not saying that Spike is Odin - I'm saying that Odin is the perfect symbol for who Spike became in S7: The warrior poet who brought victory to a war, and who would most assuredly have been taken by the valkyries to Valhalla after his death if Norse mythology was true.

[scarlettgirl.livejournal.com]

I could go with this. Although I have to admit that the line really didn't bother me.

In a medium like comics where you need to tell your verbal story with absolute brevity, I can't imagine that the word choices were random or not thought out. It's like really, really good poetry - every word has to serve multiple purposes and there's no space for filler.

So, in short, you win at comics.

[elisi]

Although I have to admit that the line really didn't bother me.
My initial thought was that it was just like 'I signalled her with my eyes!' - so utterly silly that you just have to love it. :)

So, in short, you win at comics.
Heh. *grins* And yes, I think the word choices are very deliberate - considering how I dither over words when I write fic (where I can use as many as I please), I should imagine having to cut down so much is very much like poetry. And I can't remember Norse mythology ever being mentioned before (except Olaf the Troll of course, but that's hardly the same).

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

I was aware of what Odin was about ( not the whole explanation ,very interesting - which you give us here ) especially the legend that says that Odin welcomes in his realm of Valhalla the dead warriors , but didn't take it into great consideration. Not because Buffy wouldn't know who Odin is ( hey , she may know a bit of mythology ) but because i'm sure Joss didn't intent it that way.

I admit that those words 'i miss that sex ' did annoy me a bit. Although I admire how you 're forcing parallel lines to meet ( Buffy misses the unforgettable sex with Spike who has been his champion and great fallen vampire warrior poet. so she misses Spike ), I 'm not very happy with this teasing from Joss.
I never doubted that Buffy was thinking of Spike there , but honestly , there 's not so much to rejoice about if what she remembers the most ( or it seems that it's what Joss wants us to think ) is the amazing sexual encounters.

I'm grateful to J.Whedon in many ways but sadly i have little faith in him as a spuffy shipper and that doesn't convince me that i'm wrong.

[prophecygirrl.livejournal.com]

Oh dear, it bothered me, too, for the same reasons. But I am SO trying to get over it.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Ingenious. :)

While I agree that she's probably thinking about Spike here (my earlier jokes about Riley aside), he's not the first comparison that sprang to mind, to be honest.

Odin = Xander.

Odin's most famous and distinctive trait is that he only has one eye. He lost the other in order to gain the gift of wisdom, just as by the end of S7 - and reinforced in the comic itself - Xander has beome the wisest of the Scoobies.

Odin is the Chooser of the Slain, the one who starts wars between humans so that the greatest warriors can prove their honour and worthiness to fight alongside him at the Apocalyse (Ragnarok). Liikewise we see Xander in his control room, ordering Slayers all around the world to go into battle.

Odin leads the Valkyries, warrior maidens. Xander, the Slayers. And at the start of the comic we see the Slayers riding into battle in helicopters, just like in the 'Ride of the Valkyries' scene from Apocalypse Now, which we know Joss has seen because of the pastiche in 'Restless'.

Odin hangs around with a couple of birds (Hugin and Munin). I'm sure Buffy and Xander have been in the UK long enough to pick up British slang...

And finally, I'm pretty sure Xander himself would be well aware of all this - he's already shown himself to be a science fiction/fantasy, comic book, roleplaying game geek. He may even have brought up the comparison to Odin himself in conversation with Buffy - and she remembered it, and used it as an expression herself.

[elisi]

Ingenious. :)
Thank you! *g*

Odin = Xander.
Ah well I can see that, and all your reasons are very good. To be honest I'm not disputing any of it.

But... I'm not saying Spike = Odin. I'm more saying that there are great Spike associations with Odin... the madness, the fury, the poetry, the great warrior who sways the battle and then gets 'picked' by Odin to join him at Valhalla (I keep wanting to spell it 'Valhøll'...), which is how I think Buffy sees him - the big hero who brought victory to the war and now has gone to the great beyond and out of her reach.

Basically I'm interpreting it along the lines of Tara's 'Quasimodo' line in 'Crush' - the hidden meaning there purely for the sake of the viewer/reader, even though there are v. obvious straightforward reasons for what's being said (Buffy picking up the term 'Odin' from Xander).

[confusedkayt.livejournal.com]

Le sigh. I'll go down your symbolic path, but I am still puzzled by the line as a piece of voice-work. I hear Xander in my head when I read it - it's decidedly not Buffy's cadence. My charitable interpretation of this is that clearly Buffy has been spending a great deal of time with Xander and so is picking up his phrase-patterns? But even that disturbs me.

[elisi]

Le sigh. I'll go down your symbolic path, but I am still puzzled by the line as a piece of voice-work.
Well I think there are 3 layers:

1) It's very Xander-like and she's obviously spent time with Xander (and missing her other friends!)

2) It's competely ridiculous, a la "I signalled her with my eyes" - Joss is undercutting a great romance once again.

3) Underneath everything Joss is saying that Spike's a Big Damn Hero and Buffy misses him.

[deborahc.livejournal.com]

she misses the sex. ‘Cause you know - she never had it so good as him. Never.

No, she did not. And that brought a lump to my throat.

It's pure meta - Joss using her odd turn of phrase to let us into her mind. It's sex with Spike the Champion (whom she loved) that she misses, not Spike the Convenient (whom she used).

I love the layers, but have mixed feelings about this. Knowing that Joss believed it would be WRONG for Spike and Buffy to have a physical relationship again, I feel manipulated by the Spuffy crumbs he tosses out so we can imagine that they did or would. Once again, he's written something that's open to the reader's interpretation of choice. Your take sure works for me, and I'm happy to go along, but I know that others are reading that line and going 'AhHA! Their relationship was just about the sex. Joss is an evil genius that way.

[elisi]

No, she did not. And that brought a lump to my throat.
Our wonderful ship...

Knowing that Joss believed it would be WRONG for Spike and Buffy to have a physical relationship again
Oh but he didn't - he quite specifically left that last night open for *anything*... And also, this line sure does show that he doesn't feel that way. If he didn't think that they could have a physical relationship, why bother mentioning it?

Joss is an evil genius that way.
Indeed. I bet the 3 avid B/X shippers (are there more?) are running around excitedly yelling YES! at the top of their voices... *g*

[lynnenne]

My thought when I first heard about it was that "muppity" referred to Angel. I thought maybe Buffy had a thing with him after they escaped Sunnydale but before she went off to Europe. Now that I've read this, and the Odin = Xander comment above, I think it could be Spike, or Angel, OR Xander. It's conveniently vague.

[elisi]

I thought maybe Buffy had a thing with him after they escaped Sunnydale but before she went off to Europe.
Really? I sincerely doubt that - not that they *couldn't* mind you, but the whole point of B/A is that they can't be together. And there's nothing in S5 to suggest it.

Re. Xander then I think it's quite probably a phrase she's picked up from him, but sleeping with him is even more unlikely that Angel - and heck, he's right there! No need to miss him.

All of which leaves Spike... :)

[sunryse00.livejournal.com]

As much as I want to go "woowhoo!" I just can't. For me everything about that line , about Odin, and Muppety sex screams Angel. Whether there's a comic book with Spike as a puppet coming up or not, Angel WAS a puppet, and even called a muppet by Lorne. Odin can fit Angel just as much...maybe even more than it does Spike. So in my mind all I get from that line is Buffy was in L.A. while Angel was a puppet and got to find out what else was detachable *cue lyrics*

*sigh* maybe at some point Joss will come right out and say something instead of obscure lines and fade to black scenes that can mean anything to anyone. Since I don't hang out in Bungeland, I can imagine them cheering over that line too. It's just one more line, of many, that says anything you want it to.

[elisi]

So in my mind all I get from that line is Buffy was in L.A. while Angel was a puppet and got to find out what else was detachable *cue lyrics*
Ah no, that honour was Nina's! *g*

About the line itself then - as a lot of people have pointed out - it sounds very Xander-like, and it's probably something she's picked up from him.

But looking underneath, I don't see Angel at all - she's moved on from him a long time ago (and 'Chosen' was the final confirmation. Not that they don't love each other, but they don't live in each other's worlds anymore). The only logical person for her to be thinking about is Spike. And hey - apparently he and Angel *will* show up, so who knows?

Anyway, they're only comics and Buffy doesn't even look like herself...