Thinking aloud with pictures...

[elisi]

Because we are watching one long, continuous story, and it's timey-wimey and told backwards, but also hugely dependent on what came before (i.e. Ten).

Let me show you what I mean (obvious point is obvious, but hey ho, that's not stopped me before):



The Impossible Astronaut (/this whole season) is literally the counterpoint to Waters of Mars. That is... on Mars the Doctor declared that The Laws of Time were his, and that he could do whatever he wanted and broke a Fixed Point.

In TIA he submits to The Laws of Time and - willingly - makes sure that the Fixed Point stays fixed, even though it means his own death.

Now the other thing is the Doctor's death. When Ten died you had to have a heart of stone not to feel for him (oh that music)...



OK, so he was man!pain incarnate, but he'd screwed up pretty much everything and died alone, realising what a fool he'd been.

Now Eleven... Well, it was a bit of a surprise, to say the least. And we didn't know what to make of it. But looking back at that scene on the beach, his final words are beginning to be painfully poignant:

Comments

[owlboy]

Yeup. Series 5 too, since the story both begins and ends there. I remember thinking as far back as ToA/FaS, when Eleven starts talking about how time can be rewritten, "there are gonna be huge consequences for that, buddy".

Also Ten's crotch is glowing... tee hee /immature

[elisi]

Yeup. Series 5 too, since the story both begins and ends there. I remember thinking as far back as ToA/FaS, when Eleven starts talking about how time can be rewritten, "there are gonna be huge consequences for that, buddy".
Oh absolutely (just like Ten's downfall built up piece by piece). And ToA/FaS isn't just the first appearance of 'Time can be rewritten' but also of 'What if time could run out?' (Darn Moffat is good.)

Also Ten's crotch is glowing... tee hee /immature
That's because he is radioactive! \o/

[cmattg.livejournal.com]

And ToA/FaS isn't just the first appearance of 'Time can be rewritten'

Actually it's not. I just rewatched the Library two-parter and guess what the Doctor says when he's trying to talk River out of zapping herself?

[elisi]

And ToA/FaS isn't just the first appearance of 'Time can be rewritten'
You know, I wrote that and there was something poking me at the back of my mind, but it was late and I was tired... Which isn't really a very good excuse, since I know the Library episodes pretty much by heart. Maybe I'm just meta'd out. ANYWAY, what I'm trying to say it: Thanks for the catch, and you're absolutely right. (I have for... a long time now said that EVERYTHING comes back to the Library. I don't mean that we'll actually re-visit it, just that Moffat laid out his vision there, and that it is too early, because it's a piece of Moffat-era stuck in S4...)

/rambling. Hope you don't mind.

[devohoneybee.livejournal.com]

I like what you point out about Ten being alone with his death, where Eleven invites his bestest friends to be there with him. There's something about that that matters, very much, I suspect. He has to know they will try to change that point, no matter how "fixed" it appears to be. After all, he changed the entire universe for Rory and Amy. There is something about context and connection that may rightfully trump the laws of time. When he trusted Amy's memory and imagination to reboot the universe, he was giving primacy to *consciousness.* I'm really curious how that primacy will cycle back around, this time.

(on another note, I know that Canton Delaware states, "that IS the doctor", but I also know that for ganger!Doctor "it may not be the end" and that whole exercise of Amy "knowing" - wrongly - which Doctor was "real" had to be there for a reason. What if ganger!Doctor continues on, and IS the "real" Doctor? How is a new body with all the old one's memories and abilities and consciousness not "real", just as a new regeneration is? Again, the primacy of consciousness...)

[elisi]

The thing is, I don't know how things are going to be fixed. I mean... River could rewrite time, she's a Tiemlord too, she'd know how and all that - except River is by far the most mature, and the one who very deliberately says 'No, we can't do that', the one who will do as the Doctor tells them, because she knows that it's important. So for now, the importance of them being there, for now, for me, lies in a) the fact that he's not alone, and b) in his apology, since we now know how massively he screwed them all up. (I mean, they're OK, but still. Stolen babies turned into weapons. Not good.)

As for Ganger!Doctor then... Hm. I suspect the switch was mostly for Amy's benefit (wanting to teach her - and Rory - a lesson about how a Ganger could be a person through and through, which they'd need to know), and also - from a story perspective - to clue the Doctor onto the fact that he was going to die. The thing about Ganger!Doctor is that he can't regenerate, and much as I adore Matt Smith and want him to stay on FOREVER I can't imagine he will...

Somewhere there is something that DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!

[bendingwind.livejournal.com]

Interesting that you should bring up the ganger Doctor's inability to regenerate (sorry for butting in here), because, well:

Doctor: OK, so, basically better regenerate, that's what you're saying?

Interface!Amelia: Regeneration disabled. You will be dead in 32 minutes.

We've also got the Doctor showing up in a new coat, rather similar to how the ganger!Doctor and the Doctor distinguished themselves via shoes earlier.

I'm still not 100% exactly who is who and what's going on where, but I think we're seeing some sort of bait-and-switch occur. The ganger is poisoned and then goes to die on the beach (?).

[elisi]

The ganger is poisoned and then goes to die on the beach (?).
*shakes head firmly* Two reasons. 1) The Doctor on the beach is killed in the middle of regeneration, so it can't be the Ganger. 2) The Doctor on the beach is very clearly the one who has been through AGMGTW/LKH. Plus, you know, if it's Ganger!Doctor the whole thing is pointless. (I, uh, might have strong feelings about this... It's be like watching The Gift, and then discovering that it was BuffyBot who sacrificed herself.)

Anyway, there is SOMETHING going on, what with all the mirrors and everything. *pokes show and all the metaphors*

[bendingwind.livejournal.com]

The Doctor on the beach is killed in the middle of regeneration, so it can't be the Ganger.

Er, yes. Good point.

I actually do still think we're seeing ganger!Doctor in LKH, though (not AGMGtW), and I do still think that they switch out somehow at some point. I am just not 100% sure how/when that happens. It does lend weight to the theories that the ganger!Doctor is the one in the suit, as well, and the entire thing is engineered (with River?) to trick his enemies into thinking he has died.

ARGH I JUST WANT TO KNOW THESE THINGS ALREADY. XD

[elisi]

the entire thing is engineered (with River?) to trick his enemies into thinking he has died.
I can almost see it, except it doesn't fix anything.

[bendingwind.livejournal.com]

My general thought is that it allows River's use of her regenerations to revive real!Doctor after his death at the lake. Or something like that.

It's not a complete theory I'll admit, just where I think things are moving.

[elisi]

My general thought is that it allows River's use of her regenerations to revive real!Doctor after his death at the lake. Or something like that.
But she can't, because she used them all up. And also they cremated him. I think the solution will be something far bigger and more fundamental, like re-writing time or... SOMETHING. /o\

[bendingwind.livejournal.com]

It's probably ALL THE THINGS. XD

I can totally see Moffat having them switch out Doctors and rewrite time AND reboot the universe (again), and still have time for tea.

[elisi]

Totally.

[promethia_tenk]

PRETTY MUCH THIS. "All the things" seems to be the answer on this show.

[promethia_tenk]

The thing about Ganger!Doctor is that he can't regenerate
People keep claiming this like it's a confirmed thing, but I see no reason why not.

[elisi]

Because then Kovatian wouldn't have needed to manipulate and steal a real baby, she could just have nicked a flesh copy. Plus Ganger!Doctor turned to goo...

[promethia_tenk]

Well, but they'd still have had to get their hands on the baby in order to make that copy, at which point might as well just keep the original instead. Plus they seem to want to rub what they're doing in the Doctor's face, so no sense in being so secret. And on the goo, well, Time Lords aren't Jack--they do need to maintain a certain amount of bodily integrity in order to regenerate. You try coming back from a pile of goo.

Plus they gave River the ability to regenerate on the basis of some pretty flimsy handwaving--it's not like regeneration is being treated like some impossibly special and unreproduceable trait.

Basically, I don't have a problem with the idea that a ganger!Doctor couldn't regenerate, but I'm not ruling anything out on the basis of that assumption either.

[elisi]

You try coming back from a pile of goo.
That... is kinda my point. Ganger!Doctor turned into a pile of goo on screen. And was then buried on an island brimming with acid. Never say never, I know, but really there would have to be A LOT of handwaving to get him back...

[promethia_tenk]

Ah, I thought you meant him turning into goo was a sign that he'd never been able to regenerate. Like "Time Lords regenerate, gangers return to the ooze."

I agree, though, it would take some work to bring ganger!Doctor back (though they did explicitly leave that possibility open on the show). Hasn't seemed to have stopped half of fandom from assuming he'll be back anyway, and really I wouldn't be that surprised if he did come back for some purpose or other.

All of this is mute, though, because we agree that him dying in the Doctor's place would be a cheat.

[elisi]

Ah, I thought you meant him turning into goo was a sign that he'd never been able to regenerate. Like "Time Lords regenerate, gangers return to the ooze."
Well that too. I just think it'd be a far-too-easy way of making new Timelords. I mean, why not make a ganger of River, and then she and the Doctor could happily frolick about after real!River is dead, and regenerate lots more? Heck, then we're back to 'I can use my regeneration energy to get my love back...'

[promethia_tenk]

I figure it's basically a mechanical matter. If Moff needs a ganger copy of a Time Lord to be able to regenerate to make the emotional/symbolic/thematic stuff work, he'll do it. Bringing the gangers in at all opens up all those questions about keeping people alive after death, suddenly making life "too cheap," etc. River's whole existence makes making new Time Lords "too easy." Heck, we're on a show where no one stays dead--the logics stopped being relevant long ago.

[elisi]

I figure it's basically a mechanical matter. If Moff needs a ganger copy of a Time Lord to be able to regenerate to make the emotional/symbolic/thematic stuff work, he'll do it.
I suppose, but I'm not sure he needs it. And i want to point out that making a Ganger took moments, whereas River took... nine months of hard work, not to mention the extraordinary circumstances during which she was created. I'd never call River 'easy', more... nigh-on impossible to re-create.

That said, I'd have no problems with Ganger!Doctor turning up (TWICE THE LOVELINESS), but since Moffat already has River to play with, I sincerely doubt he'll need another regenerating mirror.

[promethia_tenk]

Doesn't need it, but that in no way means he won't use it anyway *g* Just when I think this show doesn't need another layer of mirroring and infolding, we get two O_o

Also wouldn't be the first example of a copy taking on the extraordinary abilities of the original: the image of an angel becomes itself an angel, the image of a Silent becomes itself a Silent (with the same memory-altering phenomena), so the image of a Time Lord becomes itself a Time Lord? That's just playing by the rules by this point!

But, still, I'm wandering far off my point, which is just that I'm not going to use the idea that a ganger shouldn't be able to regenerate to rule out any possibilities.

[promethia_tenk]

Actually, the interesting thing with how River was created is that it makes the constraints on having new Time Lords ethical rather than mechanical. If the Doctor really wanted to revive the whole race, what's to stop him from setting up a little TARDIS honeymoon business? Invite couple after couple to come traveling with him, seed the whole galaxy with new Time Lords? But River's whole life is basically showing that those powers are a liability and a responsibility. It would be utterly foolhardy to spread them around willy-nilly with a bunch of people who will have no idea how to use them or of the danger they might be in because of their special status. No doubt many of them would run wild like Melody and/or fall prey to groups like the Silence.

And the gangers were rather similar in this respect: creating new life was easy, probably too easy. The constraints had to be ethical. And that was the problem the Time Lords ran into--what they could do exceeded their sense of what they should. And in the universe of seemingly infinite power Moff is giving his characters (of rewriting time and recreating people and wishing things into existence), what keeps any of them in line? It's not so much about what they can do as it's about their responsibilities to each other and to the greater order.

[10littlebullets.livejournal.com]

Butting in (here from who_daily) to note that ganger!Doctor is quite different from flesh!Amy and flesh!Melody, because he is one of the earlier models who managed to gain a separate consciousness in the lightning storm. His whole existence is a freak accident, not a new shiny MacGuffin that can be used to cheat death whenever the writers want to, so I would tentatively be okay with him cropping up as a plot point later (contingent, of course, on what they do with him).

And I'm going to bet he will turn up later and have something to do with the Doctor's death, for three reasons:
1. Moffat's directions to the writer of Rebel Flesh/Almost People were basically "I want a two-parter involving duplicates or flesh avatars who take on lives of their own," which suggests he's got something up his sleeve.
2. They specifically wrote in a scene where the Flesh struggles with the Doctor's past regenerations but does end up evolving to cope with them, which would make it super-easy to write in a "ganger!Doctor can regenerate but normal Flesh, the kind that's not in the early stages of the technology and is essentially a remote-control body, can't" clause.
3. They could've finished off the two-parter with a poignant scene where the ganger sacrifices himself with no hope of survival whatsoever. Instead they dangled us the "maybe I'll be back" carrot. They're certainly setting themselves up to be able to bring him back.

Also, I don't think Kovarian & Co could have nicked a Flesh copy, since the only gangers who can function independently of their originals are the ones in the Rebel Flesh two-parter. The real baby would still have had to be plugged into a ganger remote-control rig somewhere.

[elisi]

Ooooh good thoughts! I've not got anything to add right now, but thank you. This is brilliant.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I'm so loving your idea about Moffat's run being a direct statement on RTD's. It reminds me of your theory about Seasons 6 and 7 of Buffy needing to be viewed as one whole. It makes everything come together so beautifully!

In this case, I think it would be easier to see the connection between Ten's actions and Eleven's story if we didn't know about all the production stuff--if you had no idea that one showrunner had left and another had taken over, you'd just assume this was one story instead of dividing it into chunks! And I think the one story is a much better one than the sum of its parts.

[elisi]

I'm so loving your idea about Moffat's run being a direct statement on RTD's. It reminds me of your theory about Seasons 6 and 7 of Buffy needing to be viewed as one whole. It makes everything come together so beautifully!
I can't really claim is as my own, since I have it from Moffat himself, talking about how the Doctor's reputation has gotten too big. I don't think he sees it as somehow taking down RTD Who (he and RTD like each other very much), but more he's trying to work out where to take the story next.

And I think the one story is a much better one than the sum of its parts.
Oh yes. Which is why I always love to stand back and view everything as a whole. A bit like Buffy - I might be a Spuffy 'shipper through and through, but I'd never deny the huge impact on her that Angel had.