elisi | Obvious insight is obvious.

I agree. I've enjoyed MD as an interesting and compelling story so far (though I haven't quite caught up on it yet; I've only gotten up to, oh, episode four? Or is it five? Can't remember off the top of my head.), but it just hasn't been developing Jack the way I would have liked to see. I mean, he's such a great character when he's written well, you know? It's kind of a waste to push him to the sidelines like that.

That being said, I HAVE been rather enjoying what I've seen of it.

I think I'd probably like it more if it wasn't Torchwood. Because it is a neat story, but I keep being annoyed at how underused Jack is, which makes me grumpy with the rest of it.

Ah well. C'est la vie, and all that...

Edited 2011-08-19 21:11 (UTC)

I'm not 100 percent sure that Torchwood was only Jack's story, but I'm about 95 percent sure that it was Jack's story, if you can see the difference. (I guess I say that because I think that Jack's story can only be told in tandem with the telling of other peoples' stories - largely because I believe that Jack needs other people to an unbelievable degree, and so their stories inform his.)

Miracle Day, so far, holds the potential of being Jack's story, or at least I still think so; but I think RTD has made a significant pacing mistake, by holding the nut of the story, its core and heart - which I still believe is Jack - to what he obviously thinks is the last possible moment. I think he may have irretrievably sabotaged his own brilliant story idea in doing so, and I can speculate about the reasons, but the end result may be pretty sad. I'm going to be as optimistic as possible and say I believe he may be able to pull it out, and believably return Jack to the center of the story, where I think RTD always meant him to be.

I'm not 100 percent sure that Torchwood was only Jack's story, but I'm about 95 percent sure that it was Jack's story, if you can see the difference.
Oh absolutely. That's kinda what I was trying to imply with the Buffy quote. There are new people in the team, but they're not Jack's people.

Miracle Day, so far, holds the potential of being Jack's story, or at least I still think so; but I think RTD has made a significant pacing mistake, by holding the nut of the story, its core and heart - which I still believe is Jack - to what he obviously thinks is the last possible moment.
Funnily enough, it's exactly the same mistake he made in S1, more or less. I remember how utterly frustrating S1 was, since we only got the vaguest hints and clues about why Jack was what he was etc. and then the big reveal didn't happen until Utopia. Here, however, it's a bit different, since we know pretty much everything about Jack, but the show still revels in mystery, which just comes off as really weird. I hope they can turn it around, I really do, because I want as much Jack as I can get!

Was it, though? I would have said it was Gwen's story. Although I suppose by the end of CoE it was properly Jack's.

The thing I'm finding most interesting about Jack in MD is that he hasn't made a properly Jack-like call since "have you tried detaching the head?" I mean those ugly but necessary decisions--those were always Jack's strength and he made them all the time. That was his job. And he's fundamentally a man of action, but what he's been doing on MD is a lot of lurking and investigating. Lots of drifting, very little doing.

I'll be interested to see where it goes, though. Because it could be misuse of his character, and it could just be a result of the sort of story they're telling. But it could also be really good characterization. Because Jack's got every reason to still be trigger shy, you know? His strength is that he's going at making those calls and good at moving forward, but he got burned bad. So I'm hoping we're watching a story where he's learning to get back in the saddle again.

It's true, so far, and it's making me sad. I have enjoyed Gwen's role in the story, but Jack has had very few character moments focusing on how he's thinking and feeling. (And, as I've repeated ad nauseam, where did his omnisexuality go?)

Yeah, that pretty well sums up why I don't give a shit about Miracle Day so far.

Was it, though? I would have said it was Gwen's story. Although I suppose by the end of CoE it was properly Jack's.
Well I've edited the post to say 'Jack and Jack's people'. (I know that Gwen was our POV character, but I was always there for Jack. And Gwen joined a well established team and became an integral part of that, whereas the MD people are all their own.)

So I'm hoping we're watching a story where he's learning to get back in the saddle again.
That would be nice. But it's being REALLY REALLY SLOW!

It's true, so far, and it's making me sad.
Me too. :(

And, as I've repeated ad nauseam, where did his omnisexuality go?
Oh god THIS! Stop making him so GAY! He should be flirting with EVERYONE. Grr.

It is SO frustrating. I just watched episode 6 and THERE WAS JACKNESS! But then there was Rex and Esther and blah blah and Gwen and her dad, and OK, Gwen was a bit awesome to say the least there at the end but still... NOT ENOUGH JACK.

*is sad*

I kept shouting at the TV screen for him to flirt with Esther, Vera, a superintelligent shade of the color blue, anything that isn't a human male!

Yup. There was almost something in that scene in ep6, but it just... disappeared.

I hope it's not too much of a spoiler if I say that ep. 7 pretty much fixes that? In the whole episode there are maybe two minutes that don't have Jack in it. :)

Edited 2011-08-20 09:06 (UTC)

*does a happy dance*

(Sorry for jumping in like that...) I think it's intentional characterisation, because one thing that surprised me about MD so far is how well they're handling the continuity from CoE, and the decision Jack had to make there almost killed him. Would have killed him, if he'd been mortal, because I don't think there's much of a doubt he'd have put a bullet through his head like Frobisher at the end, if there had been any chance of the result being permanent.

The game changed a bit in ep. 7 (sorry to be so vague, but anything more detailed would be spoilery), but in the first few episodes we've seen Jack in such a bad state of mind that he kept projecting his own death wish on Oswald, so if Vera or anyone else had died because of an order he'd given, that'd have triggered the guilt all over again, and that would have derailed the plot in directions they didn't want.

Would have killed him, if he'd been mortal, because I don't think there's much of a doubt he'd have put a bullet through his head like Frobisher at the end, if there had been any chance of the result being permanent.
See this is why I love HotD so very much, because it shows Jack actively trying to end it all. I always wondered about those six months, but knowing that he didn't just walk around - he tried, and failed, to find a final solution, makes much more sense of his running away to the stars when he did.

ETA: Re. Jack not having much to do in the first half, then it's not so much that he isn't in command, it's that we hardly know what's going through his mind. OK, he's projecting. But how does he feel about being mortal? Does he want to kill himself? (Well yes, but... when he was poisoned, was he upset at having been saved, when peace had finally been within his reach?)

Edited 2011-08-20 10:10 (UTC)

Been writing comfort fic to help myself out, and turned on the tv to a new anime called 'Letter Bee'. The hero is apparantly called Roda. Have decided, while re-writing Roda's story around 'I Don't Think Now Is The Right Time', that she should have a male regeneration one day. And a makeover. Thought this might interest you.

Also, very interesting comparison there. I did worry about watching Miracle Day, particularly on the grounds that I didn't know what role Jack would have without Torchwood Three being... Well, Torchwood Three. And after him leaving - do you know if it's still on the iplayer? I'm back in Scotland in about 4 days so I might watch it soon. Would you recommend it? Same with Buffy... I've only ever seen a handful of Angel episodes (watched purely for Spike) and 'Once More With Feeling'. My Dad loves it, though.

It's a shame when a show lets you down. *hug*

The hero is apparantly called Roda.
That is awesome!

Have decided, while re-writing Roda's story around 'I Don't Think Now Is The Right Time', that she should have a male regeneration one day.
Did I tell you that the Seeker was going to turn female? /has memory like a sieve (Or are we just brain twins?)

V, quickly: Yes, Miracle Day is still on iPlayer, we're only on ep 6 at the moment though (one a week and there's 10 episodes.) Dunno if I'd recommend it, depends how much you like Rusty's themes.

And Buffy... well, there's 144 episodes and 120 of Angel. Of course I'll recommend it, but it's... quite a commitment.

Re. your ETA, that's also addressed in ep.7. :)

I think that even so far there's been an answer in the negative, though. The 2nd and the 6th episode did mention suicide, whether or not it was still possible, so they did in some fashion deliberately draw attention to the fact that, whatever his reasons, Jack was still alive, even if he now was the only person who still could kill himself.

Edited 2011-08-20 10:25 (UTC)

I... suppose a negative answer is still an answer, but WHY? Although if it gets addressed in ep 7 it'll make up for a bit.

(I don't like being negative. Like I said elsewhere, I'd like this so much more if it didn't call itself Torchwood.)

Edited 2011-08-20 10:37 (UTC)

IMO, because that's what Jack is like. He doesn't often share his thoughts and feelings, and very rarely unasked and unprompted. His midnight call to Gwen in ep. 3 almost shocked me with its openness, because it showed in what a bad state he still was. Gwen is the only one who might have got an answer to the question of whether he wanted to die, and she's not the kind of person who would ask that question, she's too positive and pragmatic for that. Gwen doesn't like to contemplate death, and she certainly doesn't want to contemplate the possibility of suicide, Jack's or anyone's. None of the new team members knew Jack well enough to even know this much about him, and probably wouldn't have got an answer if they'd asked.

And there's another thing — becoming mortal again after so many years, completely unexpected, is a huge thing, and Jack himself would have needed time to think about what this meant for him. It's not the same as wishing for death when you know perfectly well that it's out of your reach. If it'd happened right after CoE, he probably would have killed himself, but time has passed since then, he's started to heal, he's probably seen things that might have made look life a bit better at least from time to time, and even if he still contemplated the option, it wouldn't have been such an automatic reaction any longer.

He'll have to make yet another decision, though, when it'll come down to the question of whether to die, or become immortal again...

Edited 2011-08-20 10:49 (UTC)

Gwen is the only one who might have got an answer to the question of whether he wanted to die, and she's not the kind of person who would ask that question
Like I said... 'Oh, poor little lost boy. He doesn't fit in anywhere. He's got no one to love.' It's a problem though when your central character is inaccessible. It was a problem in S1 and it's a much bigger problem now. (For me, at least.)

ANYWAY. I'm off on holiday! *runs away*

All of which could prove that Joss Whedon wa a Time Lord; has regenerated; becoming even more weevilishly fiendish in his desire to torture his fans :-0)

Joss is Dead; Long Live RTD...
Ray.

Heh. They are... quite similar. Although RTD has more integrity (imho. *looks at s8*). Oh and bigger balls.

And HOW in the name of the ALL-MIGHTY WEB *whisper in case Mr. Darcy & the wee Darcy's are nearby* did you find that out, and where are the pictures...

LOL Ray.

*wishes you a lovely holiday*!

*dies laughing*

Um. He boldly goes where Joss fears to tread. It's that simple. :)

Thank you! :)

Sorry, for some reason that got posted as anonymous (?)

LOL Ray.

I would have said it was Gwen's story too; Jack seemed mostly a bridge between Doctor Who and the new show. Yet CoE chnaged the game and it became Jack's story.

That said, given that I am not very fond of Jack, I may talk out of prejudice.

I'm with

promethea_tank, I don't think that the show was Jack's story when it started, it was Gwen's, but it slowly morphed into it and by season 3, it seemed to be mostly about Jack.

During that process the Jack in Torchwood became very different than the Jack in DW, and now we've got an American Jack that appears also quite different, not only because he's gay but also because he's trapped inside an American tv formula.

It's like watching a character mutation.

Well it was the story of Torchwood, and how Gwen became part of that. There is no Torchwood anymore. (Gwen was used the same way as Rose was in S1 of DW - major deja vu btw - but personally I never did the identification thing. I was there for the aliens.)

That said, I'm absolutely with you on the mutation. It's *weird*. I wish they'd left Jack out of it altogether.

BTW next episode might change your mind...

That is awesome!
I also went to a resteraunt and saw a big sign saying 'Welcome to Jacob and Rhoda's Wedding Reception Guests'. *blink*

Did I tell you that the Seeker was going to turn female? /has memory like a sieve (Or are we just brain twins?)
You did indeed but I'd forgotten until now. Perhaps we're brain twins with our OC babies?

Dunno if I'd recommend it, depends how much you like Rusty's themes.
Well he got me into Who. I'm going to go out on a limb and say 'what's the worst that could happen?'?

Of course I'll recommend it, but it's... quite a commitment.
*knuckle crack* I'll keep it until Christmas, and buy a copy in the market. If I can watch all of Firefly in one day, I can watch all of Buffy in one holiday.

Edited 2011-08-20 12:31 (UTC)

I love the idea of Joss being a Time Lord. Means more things like Firefly and (I have been told Buffy) appearing through the ages!

Woooo . . . yeah, watch episode seven.

*claps* This, all this. I just mainlined all the episodes earlier this week, so I haven't had a lot of time to think over Jack's situation, but I absolutely agree. I think it would be very strange to be getting more out of Jack at this point (and that call was shocking). He's clearly doing a lot of just going through the motions, but then, he also cares enough again to go through them.

Lol--I like him fine, but I don't mind him being backgrounded either. I think there was definitely a long, slow transition from Jack being the *object* of TW to him being the *subject*. And I'm not quite sure which he is now.

It's funny I should see this post because over the last week Mike and I have been watching Torchwood's first episodes. And what I hadn't realized until I saw them was that the show was about (mostly) Gwen. It's not just her POV we get in the pilot which is an obvious framing choice, but also through most of the subsequent episodes. I've only seen the first 10 episodes so far but I thought it interesting how until Tosh's episode (which was maybe 8?) we'd yet to see anyone else's home on screen.

I imagine this might well change, but what we got of Jack in those early eps vs. Gwen is very unbalanced. And I was particularly surprised that Ianto was barely present in most of those episodes which I wouldn't have guessed at all given the fandom ;)

Thank you! I agree with

elisi that with Jack you have to read between the lines a lot, and that it can be frustrating sometimes, but they've established the character like that, and there's really no good way of changing this now. And personally speaking, I do enjoy this kind of less obvious, show-don't-tell storytelling, where not everything is spelled out and you do have to connect the dots sometimes...

Well, it certainly is Jack-centric! Still not *Torchwood*, but lots of Jack, definitely. :)

Indeed. Unfortunately the next episode was a terrible mess...well, you'll see.

It's funny I should see this post because over the last week Mike and I have been watching Torchwood's first episodes.
Oooooh neat!

And what I hadn't realized until I saw them was that the show was about (mostly) Gwen. It's not just her POV we get in the pilot which is an obvious framing choice, but also through most of the subsequent episodes. I've only seen the first 10 episodes so far but I thought it interesting how until Tosh's episode (which was maybe 8?) we'd yet to see anyone else's home on screen.
Oh S1 is very Gwen-centric, and everyone else's lack of a 'home' is quite deliberate, I think. Torchwood kinda pushes everything else out, which is where Gwen tries to change things, since she still wants a 'normal' life too...

I imagine this might well change, but what we got of Jack in those early eps vs. Gwen is very unbalanced.
Oh Lord, S1!Jack is like a shark - mostly he's hidden under the surface. I remember it driving me mad at the time, because I was watching for *Jack* (Gwen's nice, but...) and we got next to nothing. (Funny that they'ce repeated that in MD. Grrr.) Also S1 is so BLEAK! /o\ S2 is a lot more fun. S3 (Children of Earth) is AMAZING, but hard hitting. (It finally fulfilled its potential, but doing so sorta destroyed it at the same time.)

And I was particularly surprised that Ianto was barely present in most of those episodes which I wouldn't have guessed at all given the fandom ;)
Well, there was flirting going on - not much, but a stray line here or there will get you far. (Plus, yummy eyecandy in a suit!) And then there was The Stopwatch Scene and all of fandom fell of their sofas in delight and never looked back! <3 (The text in my icon comes from The Captain's Log, which was actually written by the writers and posted on the BBCAmerica site. It was, quite literally, fic written by the writers. *deep sigh* I loved this show WAAAAAAY too much.)

Oh Rusty...

*sigh*

I had a post discussing Torchwood prepped and then lost it thanks to computer issues. Will probably end up posting it Sunday.

Anyhow, I've finally watched the whole series up until this new season and it certainly became more about Jack as time went on (in fact the miniseries was the most about any of the characters, but particularly him).

Great description of Jack as a shark in S1. S2 really just upended almost everyone's characterization. Ha! I like the idea of writers ficcing their own series (though if they're the writers can it ever be fic...?)

Obvious insight is obvious.

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