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Buffy, Angel, Spike.
It's a funny thing, but the comics are making me more fond of the show, more grateful for what we got and more willing to overlook the flaws. Anyway, today I went and re-read ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
the_royal_anna's review of Damage, and then began looking through the comments and found this absolute gem by ascian3. Under cut, cause it's a bit long. (Italics at the start is ascian3 quoting from Anna's post btw.)
Isn’t there the most delicious reminder this episode, when Dana throws Spike from the top floor of the building, and he lands, just as he did after being thrown from the tower in The Gift? Because there is Spike, and responsibility.
Yes, yes, YES! I think you've got it, absolutely, the difference I keep trying to work my way towards, between modes of expression of guilt on the path to redemption.
There's an ongoing conflict that underlies a lot of what goes on in the Jossverse, which is the conflict between heart and head. You talk about this a lot here, "heart and head, keep cutting until you see dust". And it's not an accident, not really, that this is so central here. Heart and head is the central conflict of the Buffyverse. Is the path to redemption paved with good intentions or good actions? Can you do good with evil in your heart? Can you do evil if your nature (and title character status) dictates that you're supposed to be good?
It was always Buffy's story, the conflict between duty and love, killing love to do duty, saving the world by sacrificing her heart. Because it was the right thing to do. Year by year, doing the right thing, Buffy turned to dust. Stake the heart, and you turn to dust. That was her story, and in the end it drove her away from everything; from house and home, from friends and loved ones and in the end, even from duty for a while. You can't save the world when you've turned to dust. It's no accident that the only thing she never did manage to lose was Spike - creature of nothing but heart - and it's also no accident that that's what saved her and the rest of the world in the end. Duty and love. In the Jossverse, when you're faced with a choice between the proverbial rock and the hard place, the answer is always to change the playing field. And that's exactly what happened, in the end; the answer to "heart or head?" was not either or, but "Yes."
And of course this is Angel's story, too, but Angel's question is a little bit different from Buffy's. Where Buffy tried desperately to do her duty in a way that allowed her space to keep her own heart, Angel's always tried to do his duty in such a way that his own heart - the one he's so desperately afraid of - is out of the picture. Angel's afraid of what his heart wants, and would rather live the life of the head. It's not a mirror of Buffy's story exactly, but rather its complement. In both cases, it's all about balancing heart and head, and in both cases the penalty for failure is a handful of dust, which is to say: isolation, and ineffectiveness.
And in both cases, I think, this is where Spike comes in. Spike (in general) is all heart, which makes him the perfect foil to both Buffy and Angel. Spike's the guy who always follows his blood (heart) and while this does not mean that his actions are necessarily good (good for Buffy, maybe, or good for Dru, or even good for Spike), they are good by the only yardsticks that matter to him - the people and things he cares about. Spike talks to Buffy in Fool For Love about the importance of ties to the world, and it's interesting that Angel gets a similar speech from Doyle in his own pilot episode. The essence of the speech is this: the capacity to act for good in the world is irreversibly tied to the capacity to care about the things you're saving. Spike has the opposite problem from Angel and Buffy - he only cares, and doing good has historically been a variably minor concern - but his quest is the perfect mirror of theirs in that regard. They're learning to balance head with heart, while he's (slowly) learning the importance of thinking with parts other than his blood.
the_royal_anna's review of Damage, and then began looking through the comments and found this absolute gem by ascian3. Under cut, cause it's a bit long. (Italics at the start is ascian3 quoting from Anna's post btw.)Isn’t there the most delicious reminder this episode, when Dana throws Spike from the top floor of the building, and he lands, just as he did after being thrown from the tower in The Gift? Because there is Spike, and responsibility.
Yes, yes, YES! I think you've got it, absolutely, the difference I keep trying to work my way towards, between modes of expression of guilt on the path to redemption.
There's an ongoing conflict that underlies a lot of what goes on in the Jossverse, which is the conflict between heart and head. You talk about this a lot here, "heart and head, keep cutting until you see dust". And it's not an accident, not really, that this is so central here. Heart and head is the central conflict of the Buffyverse. Is the path to redemption paved with good intentions or good actions? Can you do good with evil in your heart? Can you do evil if your nature (and title character status) dictates that you're supposed to be good?
It was always Buffy's story, the conflict between duty and love, killing love to do duty, saving the world by sacrificing her heart. Because it was the right thing to do. Year by year, doing the right thing, Buffy turned to dust. Stake the heart, and you turn to dust. That was her story, and in the end it drove her away from everything; from house and home, from friends and loved ones and in the end, even from duty for a while. You can't save the world when you've turned to dust. It's no accident that the only thing she never did manage to lose was Spike - creature of nothing but heart - and it's also no accident that that's what saved her and the rest of the world in the end. Duty and love. In the Jossverse, when you're faced with a choice between the proverbial rock and the hard place, the answer is always to change the playing field. And that's exactly what happened, in the end; the answer to "heart or head?" was not either or, but "Yes."
And of course this is Angel's story, too, but Angel's question is a little bit different from Buffy's. Where Buffy tried desperately to do her duty in a way that allowed her space to keep her own heart, Angel's always tried to do his duty in such a way that his own heart - the one he's so desperately afraid of - is out of the picture. Angel's afraid of what his heart wants, and would rather live the life of the head. It's not a mirror of Buffy's story exactly, but rather its complement. In both cases, it's all about balancing heart and head, and in both cases the penalty for failure is a handful of dust, which is to say: isolation, and ineffectiveness.
And in both cases, I think, this is where Spike comes in. Spike (in general) is all heart, which makes him the perfect foil to both Buffy and Angel. Spike's the guy who always follows his blood (heart) and while this does not mean that his actions are necessarily good (good for Buffy, maybe, or good for Dru, or even good for Spike), they are good by the only yardsticks that matter to him - the people and things he cares about. Spike talks to Buffy in Fool For Love about the importance of ties to the world, and it's interesting that Angel gets a similar speech from Doyle in his own pilot episode. The essence of the speech is this: the capacity to act for good in the world is irreversibly tied to the capacity to care about the things you're saving. Spike has the opposite problem from Angel and Buffy - he only cares, and doing good has historically been a variably minor concern - but his quest is the perfect mirror of theirs in that regard. They're learning to balance head with heart, while he's (slowly) learning the importance of thinking with parts other than his blood.
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Come to think of it, it might be worth speculating about what the tone of the show would have been if they hadn't replaced Doyle with Wesley. Because Wesley is a lot like Angel in that he doesn't trust himself and his heart at all, and he always was the one with the cold, strategic plans, the one willing to use and sacrifice people for the greater good, even in BtVS. Doyle was 'heart', like Cordelia; with Wesley the balance shifted. Angel and Wesley are scarily alike sometimes, and become more so over the course of the show as Wesley's arc mirrors Angel's, and Angel learns from Wesley. The strategic plan for the final fight isn't something Angel would have come up with on his own, if he hadn't been taking lessons from Wesley for years.
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Hmmm. Interesting idea. Doyle was very much someone looking for redemption, struggling with what he was, which was a wonderful mirror for Angel (and why they understood each other so well). Wesley, on the other hand, was in many ways someone Angel took under his wing (Angel as father figure), but thanks to Wesley's HUGE father-issues and Angel's less than stellar guardianship (if that's the right word) it didn't turn out all that well...
I realise that I'm somewhat flipping your interpretation, and although I guess Angel does learn from Wesley I don't think the plan for the final fight owes all that much to him... I tend to see it more as Angel finally drawing on the resources from being Angelus, who - as we know - is pretty good at strategy and masterminding. Not that Wesley and the Watcher-ness of him didn't make a difference, but I'm not sure planning was where the biggest influence lay.
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Angel maybe took him under his wing for a while, but I think he always recognised something of himself in Wesley, who shares his father issues, and Wesley takes the lead already in S2 when he kept AI going without Angel. He remains the silent leader until Angel changes all their memories to save Connor.
Of course it's possible that Angel started to draw on the resources from being Angelus, but Wesley always did what Angel does for the first time in the finale—strategically use and sacrifice people. I guess for me the problem is that we never really saw Angelus doing that...
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Oh absolutely. I'm not disputing the mirroring at all!
Of course it's possible that Angel started to draw on the resources from being Angelus, but Wesley always did what Angel does for the first time in the finale—strategically use and sacrifice people.
Ah yes. Wesley has a ruthlessness that Angel finds very problematic, although as we see in S2 Angel is perfectly capable of ruthlessness and more besides - he just generally balks at it much more.
ETA: Actually, going back to my post (or the quote, rather), it's interesting that Angel gets someone who focusses on the heart back when he's most lost. Of course there's [a brief appearance by] Cordy, but Spike acts like a walking, talking reminder of what he ought to be/what he once was. He doesn't listen as carefully as he did to Doyle (since Spike is one of his sins), but I think it has a great effect on him.
Why yes I'm tired and my mind is just running around doing its thinking thing. I hope it makes some kind of sense. ;)
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Seriously, dividing up into groups of one (except Lindsey and Lorne, and Lorne was only there to betray and murder an ally) and launching multiple individual attacks was not the best way to do it. If Angel had planned the Battle of Waterloo instead of Wellington we'd be posting in French now.
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Spike talks to Buffy in Fool For Love about the importance of ties to the world, and it's interesting that Angel gets a similar speech from Doyle in his own pilot episode. The essence of the speech is this: the capacity to act for good in the world is irreversibly tied to the capacity to care about the things you're saving. Spike has the opposite problem from Angel and Buffy - he only cares, and doing good has historically been a variably minor concern - but his quest is the perfect mirror of theirs in that regard. They're learning to balance head with heart, while he's (slowly) learning the importance of thinking with parts other than his blood.
Interesting. Both Angel and Buffy have learned (the hard way!) not to trust their hearts, but only their heads? I tend to think Angel following his heart in NFA; I honestly don't see a lot of planning or strategy there. I see a lot of Glorious Last Stand, and can totally see why that would appeal to Spike on some level. But maybe Angel learned that lesson a little too well!
The MOG needed someone using his/her head in addition to his/her heart. No way Wes would have signed off on that plan without the whole Ilyria thing.
Spike spent his century-long extended adolescence following his heart, not his head. getting his soul back was growing up, and he started having to use his head again. He was growing out of being the Fool For Love, and I regret that. Growing up means protecting his heart from the ones who can hurt it-- Angel and Buffy.
Why yes, I am in that dark, dark center of season 6 right now...
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Indeed. And there's something pure about rants. (Not that this is one, of course, but I rather like rants when I agree with them. *g*)
Interesting. Both Angel and Buffy have learned (the hard way!) not to trust their hearts, but only their heads?
With Buffy particularly, I see 'Touched' as the break-through moment, when she begins to actively trust her heart again. (I mean, she does it a lot, but not consciously.)
I tend to think Angel following his heart in NFA; I honestly don't see a lot of planning or strategy there.
The Military Soundness of Angel's Final Plan. (Am I ever glad I found that essay!)
The MOG needed someone using his/her head in addition to his/her heart. No way Wes would have signed off on that plan without the whole Ilyria thing.
*nods*
Spike spent his century-long extended adolescence following his heart, not his head. getting his soul back was growing up, and he started having to use his head again. He was growing out of being the Fool For Love, and I regret that. Growing up means protecting his heart from the ones who can hurt it-- Angel and Buffy.
*pets poor Spike* And yet Champion!Spike is the one I love the most, even more than Love's Bitch!Spike. Still... Season 6. *deep sigh*
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Buffy's "Cookie Dough" speech doesn't get a lot of love in fandom, but I've always thought it was perfect. Buffy was still becoming. She wasn't done yet, and my biggest regret about the comics is that we don't get to see what she was growing up into. I think she'd grow up to learn to balance her heart and her head-- too bad that's going to have to happen only in fic.
I love Angel like whoa, but I'm not as sure he'd learn that balance.
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That's a perfect way of putting it!
But growing up (for lack of a better term) has it's downside too; he looses some of that joie de vivre makes him Spike.
I *know*! *mourns Spike-Spike*
Buffy's "Cookie Dough" speech doesn't get a lot of love in fandom, but I've always thought it was perfect. Buffy was still becoming.
Yes, this! Exactly! *loves it too*
She wasn't done yet, and my biggest regret about the comics is that we don't get to see what she was growing up into.
I find it kinda hilarious when the editor or artist tries to sell s8!Buffy as grown-up!Buffy. (Well it's either that or crying...)
I love Angel like whoa, but I'm not as sure he'd learn that balance.
I think for Angel the problem was always balancing his soul and his demon and accepting himself, completely, which I think happened in the finale. Would have been awesome to see more of, though. But then, I'm writing fic... *g*
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Where Buffy tried desperately to do her duty in a way that allowed her space to keep her own heart, Angel's always tried to do his duty in such a way that his own heart - the one he's so desperately afraid of - is out of the picture.
:( *huggles Angel-food*
I'm interested in the Wesley similarities too. Particularly when Angel tries to smother him, choosing not to forgive him, and simultaneously choosing not to forgive himself. They both suck at self-forgiveness.
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Isn't it just? And it's all because of your post that I found it! :)
:( *huggles Angel-food*
*huggles him too*
I'm interested in the Wesley similarities too. Particularly when Angel tries to smother him, choosing not to forgive him, and simultaneously choosing not to forgive himself. They both suck at self-forgiveness.
Now that is a brilliant observation!!!
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Oh man, I LOVE your icon. So poignant. Wesley and Angel have so been on my mind lately.
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And the icon is by
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That icon DOES sum him up beautifully. WESLEY. :'(
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And this is my other Wesley icon...
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(I have an icon addiction that I am very fond of. I mean, what would I do without this one, f.ex.?)
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HEE! Rambling. Indeed.
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And as for the rambling one, then I had
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Re: rambling. Heeee. I can certainly relate.
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I know. I don't use it very often, but I'd NEVER be able to get rid of it. Ditto this one.
And yeah, rambling. It's what LJ is made for...
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(I am very good at getting people to make icons for me.)
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Though, that animated one there is ALSO AWESOME. And full of TRUTH.
(Hee, that is a useful talent to possess.)
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And that
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Doctor & Master. ♥ ♥
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And you should go for it! The only way to learn is by doing! *urges you on* If it wasn't that writing took up all of my own time I'd probably have a stab at it myself.
As for Doctor/Master then I have a ton, but then Rusty (bless his cotton socks) liked to lay it on with a trowel... (This is one
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Yeah, writing. That tends to be more my forte... Though I don't do nearly as much of that as I should either.
lol at your Master there. Crazy dude.
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Twas lovely. *deep sigh*
Yeah, writing. That tends to be more my forte... Though I don't do nearly as much of that as I should either.
Well you've done rather well with the meme!
lol at your Master there. Crazy dude.
"Get out of the way!" ♥ ♥ ♥ (I loooove the Mister Master, oh yes I do...)
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Good luck!