Re. character hate.

[elisi]

I've been mulling this over, because clearly I'm an oddity in fandom. The thing is, I don't understand character hate. Literally, don't get it. (Also, it makes me sad. But that's another topic.)

Let me explain: People will talk about character Z, listing all the various ways in which s/he is annoying/entitled/misogynistic/manipulating etc. And it's not that I can't see their point - Z might be a walking, talking creep, and I might deeply dislike all his/her traits, but as long as all those things make sense for that character I'm happy.

Take Warren for instance - pretty much the most despicable guy we ever come across in BtVS, but what I'm concerned about is that his misogyny makes sense. Which it does - we see how he evolves, watch as he goes darker and darker, and I find that very interesting. If he was real I'd probably hate him, but he's not - he's a fictional character and a good, well-rounded one at that. So why would I hate him?

I do of course have characters that I love to tiny itty bitty pieces, that I can flail and squee about forever, and whose mere presence onscreen instantly makes life better, but I can't think of any characters who ruin things for me or make me furious. I think the opposite of fullblown adoration for me is boring or (embarrassingly) badly-drawn characters. I don't hate them (because they're usually too boring or annoying for that, and I am very good at ignoring stuff I dislike), and if necessary I can fanwank their existence into something useful, because I hate just tearing things down - much more rewarding to try to work out how something might fit in. ETA: See my meta on Caleb f.ex. (And this is one reasons s8 is frustrating - it is impossible for me to fanwank any of it! But I don't hate it.)

Actually - I've thought of an exception: The Slitheen. Not to mention their even more pointless relatives, the Blathereen. But then they truly are the absolute epitome of pointlessness. (I might look on them with kinder eyes if they hadn't been so overused on SJA. If I wanted to see people covered in goo, I'd watch Dick and Dom!)

Comments

[yourlibrarian]

I suspect it has something to do with how often someone is annoyed by versus hating actual people as well. I usually can't get worked up enough for that.

And with characters, at least, one is often intended to view a character as unlikeable or difficult or funny. Unfortunately, sometimes the funny comes off as annoying, and the unlikeable comes off as stubbornly sympathetic ;)

You're also right about the difference between a character and knowing someone like that. I think Cordelia is an excellent example of a character most of us probably wouldn't want to know (at least not until later). But she was SO much fun to watch! I am usually much more upset by character assassination or neglect than the characters themselves.

On that note I think it's a character that's exasperating and just not working that usually bugs me much more. And that's sometimes because the writers are clearly far more entertained by said character than the audience is. It makes it start to seem like they're just writing for themselves and not an audience, which is why a genuine Mary Sue also tends to make for unreadable stories. Eye-rollitis is a genuine condition!

[elisi]

And with characters, at least, one is often intended to view a character as unlikeable or difficult or funny.
Well in the example that sparked this post the opposite was true - it was a character clearly meant to be liked, and thus invoking anger because of the way he got a lot of free passes. Although again, it speaks about the disparity between the writers' intention and the way the audience perceives the character, something rather tricky...

I am usually much more upset by character assassination or neglect than the characters themselves.
This, very, very much!

It makes it start to seem like they're just writing for themselves and not an audience, which is why a genuine Mary Sue also tends to make for unreadable stories. Eye-rollitis is a genuine condition!
LOL! But yes, this is what I was getting at above. Plus, of course, there's the fact that the viewers will all have wildly differing opinions - a character than my love could be hated by others... *deep sigh*

[deird1]

*loves your thoughts*

[elisi]

Aw, thank you! :)

[shapinglight]

I don't understand the extremes of character hate either. I do understand the frustration people can feel when they perceive a character's actions one way and realise that the creators of that character are clueless as to how they come across to some people, but when that happens to me it tends to make me irritated with the creators rather than the characters, and if the character in question still works in context then they're not complete failures anyway.

[elisi]

Yes, exactly! My issues tend to go straight over the heads of the characters and straight to the writers.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Same here. i don't care so much if a character is likable but a lot more if he's constructed well.

I do occasionally find characters annoying, but the fact that I find Jar Jar Binks annoying doesn't drive me to write long essays on his moral inferiority.

I think that might also be my main problem with S8. Characters go dark and do bad things? Great! But let them do so with working motivations and character development, don't turn them into morons overnight.

[elisi]

Same here. i don't care so much if a character is likable but a lot more if he's constructed well.
I think that, for me at least, I obviously always come to shows with my meta glasses on. *g*

I do occasionally find characters annoying, but the fact that I find Jar Jar Binks annoying doesn't drive me to write long essays on his moral inferiority.
He's annoying, but also loyal and brave! Doesn't make me want to watch him, at all, but I could never hate him. Just avoid him at all costs!

Characters go dark and do bad things? Great! But let them do so with working motivations and character development, don't turn them into morons overnight.
So much word!

[diamondtook862.livejournal.com]

I think it really does come down to not wanting to tear things down. These characters are real enough that we write continued stories about them, why would we destroy the groundwork that makes any of them who they are? All kinds of characters are necessary for a good story, and in Buffy most are pretty complex.

I also completely agree about the Slitheen- icky and they make so little sense. :P I like the Lady Slitheen (Margaret? It's been a while) as a character, I just don't like the species...

[elisi]

I think it really does come down to not wanting to tear things down.
*nods a lot* Also, I've written enough fic to know that even the most despicable character can be fascinating to explore!

I also completely agree about the Slitheen- icky and they make so little sense. :P
How did they develop technology with those giant claws???

I like the Lady Slitheen (Margaret? It's been a while) as a character, I just don't like the species...
Oh yes, Margaret was good, partly because she was allowed to be developed as a character, rather than just be the Bad Guy that could be blown up willy-nilly.

[solitary-summer.livejournal.com]

I don't get it either, and most of all I don't get why people chose to obsess on that hatred to the point of forming communities. I do to an extent understand reacting immediately to the character rather than taking the dislike to a meta/writer level; there are a few issues, especially violent misogyny, that for me trigger—without actually being a trigger—a strong, irrational emotional reaction. Characters like Warren or Caleb, or even Angelus, simply repulse me, but that means that I want to spend as little time as possible thinking about them, not turn my dislike into a hobby.

But all of the above are pretty extreme cases, and when a character isn't an outright sociopath, but a normal human being with (give or take) normal weaknesses and strengths and (again, give or take) normal human reactions, I really don't understand the virulent hatred. And it's not as if people are setting up communities to hate on characters like Warren; it's characters like Gwen that get bashed, and this is something I simply don't get. With people like that I can't help but wonder if they go through life judging others this harshly, too, and mostly it makes me want to stay away from them.

[elisi]

I do to an extent understand reacting immediately to the character rather than taking the dislike to a meta/writer level; there are a few issues, especially violent misogyny, that for me trigger—without actually being a trigger—a strong, irrational emotional reaction.
See that I can understand. I don't feel like that, but I can understand it. I don't understand how hating a character can be *fun*. (Well - I like to mock. I can mock until the cows come home - see Twilight - but it comes from a place of not taking the subject seriously.)

And it's not as if people are setting up communities to hate on characters like Warren; it's characters like Gwen that get bashed, and this is something I simply don't get.
You know, I'd managed to forget (or probably repress) the Gwen-bashing. *shudders* Like you, I find it unappealing in the extreme. It's one of the reasons I stay far away from most of TW fandom.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

My own character 'hate' usually comes from annoyance that my view doesn't coincide with the author's view. That's why I never hate villains, usually. They're bad people, but they're not portrayed as good people, so fine.

But then you'd have someone like, say, Riley, who I think comes across as way different than we're supposed to see them, so I kinda hate that character.

[elisi]

Ah, but the RIley thing is exactly what I mean! I can definitely see why he annoys people. He was written as the perfect metaphor for male privilege, except I'm not sure the writers did it on purpose, which makes things complicated. But - Riley himself is a perfectly realised character, and I don't hate him, even when he's being an entitled jerk. That's just part of who he is. (He is also a bit boring, which is far worse... *g*)

That said, 'Into the Woods' and 'As You Were' are episodes that make me very cross - but my anger is directed at the writers, not the characters.

[adoxerella.livejournal.com]

Okay, so we'll see if I can make this make sense with a lack of coffee in my system, because I need to pipe in and say wordy mcword word...or something.

I totally agree with what you said about being annoyed at a character, but not really getting hate directed at a fictional character. In fact one of the things I enjoy is seeing a creator do everything in their power to make you dislike a character and then all of the sudden yank the rug out from under you by making them sympathetic.

The thing the baffles me even more are those who feel the need to loath a character in order justify liking another character or ship. Why do you have to hate another character to make your favorite character seem better? To me that would indicate that your motivations for liking a character were kind of weak. Even at the height of my 'OMG B/A is the greatest couple alive and no other shall ever top it eleventy-one' stage I didn't hate Riley because he was dating Buffy. I actually kind of liked him until he decided not to trust his girlfriend. That was what did him in as a likable character for me, not the fact that he was with Buffy instead of Angel.

I could go on, but I already feel like I am hijacking your entry, so I will shut up. Plus it hurts to think, so I obviously need more coffee.

[elisi]

Look, here's Ianto with some coffee for you! :) Although you've done pretty well without...

In fact one of the things I enjoy is seeing a creator do everything in their power to make you dislike a character and then all of the sudden yank the rug out from under you by making them sympathetic.
This is an excellent point! And yes, I love that too - it's wonderful when characters get another layer.

The thing the baffles me even more are those who feel the need to loath a character in order justify liking another character or ship.
Word. solitary_summer mentioned Gwen-bashing in her comment, and that is probably one of the greatest extremes - and so utterly mysterious to me, since she is in no way a threat to Jack/Ianto. She and Ianto even gang up on Jack - THERE IS NO CONFLICT! *shakes head* Tis a mystery. Plus, like you say - it does look like overcompensation.

And never worry about rambling in this LJ! That's what it's for! :)

[me-llamo-nic.livejournal.com]

I love these thoughts. I'm frequently lost when it comes to all the hate.

And yes, Boomtown is easily the best Slitheen episode.

[elisi]

Thank you - I sorta feel like I'm talking a different language.

I think it's because Margaret is a properly developed character, rather than someone the heroes can throw vinegar over...

[rahirah]

I think character hate arises when there's a mismatch between the way the viewer/reader sees the character, and the way that viewer/reader believes that the writers see the character. No one hates Warren because he's supposed to be hateful. But when we see Buffy or Xander or Angel or whoever doing things that we find to be awful, and apparently getting validated/celebrated for doing those things by the writers or other fans, that's when you start to hate them. Particularly if your favorite character seems to be punished for doing things which are similar.

[elisi]

I think character hate arises when there's a mismatch between the way the viewer/reader sees the character, and the way that viewer/reader believes that the writers see the character.
Good point. It's especially relevant when it comes to s8, since most of us thinks that Joss drank the cool aid - but like I said, it never translates into character hate for me. Also, there's the fact that the writers *do* own the characters. F.ex. do I wish that Rose had been developed beyond 'I NEED to find the Doctor OMG!'? Very much so. But she's Rusty's creation, and that's that. I certainly don't blame *her*.

Particularly if your favorite character seems to be punished for doing things which are similar.
I guess my problem is that my default position is to see things from every possible point of view, which becomes tricky for things like Spuffy in S6, where I have read both 'Buffy is a total bitch and she doesn't deserve Spike' to 'Spike is a manipulative bastard and Buffy should stake his sorry ass'. And I happen to love both of them very much, so have always found myself caught in the middle of those kind of arguments...

But thank you for your comment - you are a very wise woman.

[calturner.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with everything you say in this post. Character hate baffles me, and I don't think I'll ever understand it.

[elisi]

Good to know I'm not alone in my Pollyannaish tendencies. :)

[promethia_tenk]

Hmmmmm . . . intriguing subject. I'm not quite sure what I think about it, but here's a few musings, in no particular order:

1) I'm with you in getting annoyed at the writers for a lot of things that other people would channel into character hate, and I do also tend to take more issue with what I see as badly constructed characters than with consistent and believable characters who have unlikable traits. The thing is, I've seen a few too many rashes of character bashing "justified" by people claiming the character is badly written when, no, they're just not looking hard enough (Amy, the character of Cameron on House). For some reason this seems to happen particularly with younger female characters and gets entangled with the whole "do writers write good female characters?" debate. For these reason I've tried to train myself to really hold back on the "badly written" assessment when it comes to characters and to give writers the benefit of the doubt: sometimes a character does have an internal logic to them that I just might not be able to see because of my own biases.

2) Some of my favorite characters of all time are people I would not be able to stand in real life, but it's so compelling to get a glimpse into what makes them tick.

3) I do enjoy a bit of casual, recreational character hate when it comes to shows I don't take too seriously. Just something I can yell at the TV about for an hour and then go on with my life.

4) Often a character I "hate" annoys me more because they take time away from the characters I like or because I don't like their interactions with a character I like rather than really bothering me on their own merits.

5) This may just be me, but personally I can find it a big relief just to be able to say I hate a character. Real life is so full of people who I know, somehow, rub me the wrong way, and so my reactions to them end up being this big, confusing mass of "I don't like this and this about you but maybe I'm not being fair or maybe I really don't understand where you're coming from or maybe deep down I do know that I don't like you but I have to work with you anyway so I'm not going to look to hard at it . . ." and just in general a whole lot of not letting myself hate anybody which does tend to smooth out a whole lot of social interactions but is also pretty wearing. A fictional character, however, doesn't come with the same encumbrances. Sometimes I can just look at a fictional character and say "you are the kind of person I really don't like" and it's like a beautiful bit of clarity. I don't feel the need to rant about these kinds of characters to all and sundry, though. It's enough to know or maybe just state simply to a few close friends.

[elisi]

Oooh, lots of points!

1. The thing is, I've seen a few too many rashes of character bashing "justified" by people claiming the character is badly written when, no, they're just not looking hard enough
Oh, this annoys me too! Esp when used as a justification for hate. This is always the point where I try to make the characters work. Like I said, I excel at fanwanking. ;)

2. Word. I *adore* complex bad guys, say the Master, whom I'd never go near in RL.

3. Ah yes, this one I must confess to as well. Although mostly I mock, because that's what I'm good at!

4. Hmmm. I like subtextual stuff, things that go on in the background - plus I tend to fall for characters that aren't big and flashy (Ianto f.ex.), so I tend to be grateful for anything I can get. Zero expectations, that's the key to a happy life!

5. Sometimes I can just look at a fictional character and say "you are the kind of person I really don't like" and it's like a beautiful bit of clarity.
Now that I *can* understand. My problems arise with those who actively look for ways to dislike the character *more* - they're perfectly within their rights to do this, of course, but it just strikes me as... odd.

[owlboy]

Word.

I think it's often a case of projection. That and being insane [ie obsessing, creating wanktastic communities] over characters is a lot safer than being creepily hateful of real people, since characters can't retaliate, so you can easily dump a load of insane wank on them and make stuff up if it justifies your position.

I've never seen any character-hate that wasn't completely ludicrous. I think most people who do this kind of thing don't even KNOW why they hate a character so much, and just make up the strangest things. It's always things like 'River Song's hair is too frizzy' or 'Eleven is weird and has bad fashion sense' [like none of the other Doctors do...]

And the hypocrisy when people admire certain traits in one character and disparage them in another...oohhhh -_- f.ex. arrogance in men vs arrogance in women. Arrogance in men is sexy, but you'd think there was a special place in hell for arrogant women.

The only character I well and truly _hate_ [to the point I just want to, ugh punch him in the face or something] is Edward from Twilight, and I'm not even sure why. But I don't go around revelling in my dislike of him, I try to avoid him as much as possible because hatred feels bad.

[elisi]

I think it's often a case of projection.
Yeah. And I guess it's good that they can offload in a safe environment, although when it comes to people who have it as their default position I think it can't be a healthy thing.

I've never seen any character-hate that wasn't completely ludicrous.
Amen. Now I know people who just dislike characters (sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for no reason at all), and that can't be helped really.

Arrogance in men is sexy, but you'd think there was a special place in hell for arrogant women.
This. SO much. Plus the whole man-pain thing...

And as for dear Edward, then have you seen Buffy Vs. Edward? If not, make haste! It's BRILLIANT, and beautifully exposes most of his flaws. (Hating Edward Cullen is A-OK btw! Partly because he's just so ridiculous.)

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

I don't understand the character hate, but it exists. :(

I remember how painful it was to read all the seething Buffy and Scoobie hate after series just ended. It all faded, but then I just couldn't understand the passion in inventing various gruesome deaths for my girl...

[elisi]

I remember how painful it was to read all the seething Buffy and Scoobie hate after series just ended. It all faded, but then I just couldn't understand the passion in inventing various gruesome deaths for my girl...
Same here. Both painful and very sad. Why spend so much time on something so negative? :(

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

I've always been a little puzzled at character hate. I mean, if it's a main character that you hate, why are you watching the show?

There have been main characters I've disliked, and I don't watch those shows any more. Well, except Bones. Temperence Brennen rubbed me the wrong way from day one, so I didn't start watching until a couple years in. Then I realized I loved the other characters, and could tolerate Bones for Hogins & Zach. And Bones has grown on me, I don't mind her any more. Also I suspect they writers figured out how to write her less badly, but I digress.

I like the slitheen in season 1. They're good monsters of the week in Aliens of London/WWIII and Margret/ Blon is a well developed villain in Boomtown, which I love. They are overused in SJA though- no argument!

And enough said about the Absorbalof-- that's just a terrible episode.

BTW you might enjoy a fic I read recently-- Shawn Spencer Saves the Day

[elisi]

I've always been a little puzzled at character hate. I mean, if it's a main character that you hate, why are you watching the show?
For the same reason you watch Bones? ;)

I like the slitheen in season 1. They're good monsters of the week in Aliens of London/WWIII and Margret/ Blon is a well developed villain in Boomtown, which I love. They are overused in SJA though- no argument!
It was one of the trailers for SJA S4 that did it - lots of awesome stuff, BUT yet another Slitheen. *headdesk*

And enough said about the Absorbalof-- that's just a terrible episode.
I always manage to purge that one from my mind. *shudders* (Although it WAS created by a 10 y.o. so I can't hate it completely...)

And thanks for the rec! :)

Here via metafandom

[agnes-bean.livejournal.com]

Thank you for writing this. I feel the same way. (The last time I remember hating a character the way people normally do when they talk about character hate was Dean from Gilmore Girls. And that was of shipping. I was also twelve :P )

But yeah. I have characters that ANNOY me a lot, and that can sometimes lead towards hateful feelings. But it's not hate towards the character, more towards their overuse, you know? In the same way that I hate certain plots or ships or whatever. I don't want to exert energy thinking about how I hate them, I just want them off my screen. Most of the time, I acknowledge that my reasons for being annoyed by a character are pretty subjective.

There are definitely characters I find really problematic and dislike for that reason, but that kind of feeling doesn't really lead to *rage* at the character, it leads to *rage* at the writers. I love interestingly, purposefully flawed characters most of the time (from good guys to villains). I really don't like it when characters who the writers present as doing "good" when I think they are being jerks. But that's the writer's fault.

Interestingly, I DO sometimes hate reality TV people. Which I guess is because even though I know editing basically turns real people into characters, there's still that elements of "No, this dick is not an interesting and well drawn fictional character, he is an actual dick in the actual world," which makes things different.

PS. I'm going to friend you, if that's okay, because I've seen your meta around and I like it. Plus Buffy+Dr. Who are awesome.

Re: Here via metafandom

[elisi]

I've been linked on metafandom?!? Gosh. That's never happened before.

Thank you for writing this. I feel the same way.
One of the best things about this post is all the people who've said they feel like this too. It's nice to know. :)

But yeah. I have characters that ANNOY me a lot, and that can sometimes lead towards hateful feelings. But it's not hate towards the character, more towards their overuse, you know?
*nods* I think that's perfectly normal - it's the way some people deliberately focus on only the negative that makes me uncomfortable.

There are definitely characters I find really problematic and dislike for that reason, but that kind of feeling doesn't really lead to *rage* at the character, it leads to *rage* at the writers
Wordy McWord. (I am looking at Joss and s8 here...)

I really don't like it when characters who the writers present as doing "good" when I think they are being jerks. But that's the writer's fault.
*nods*

Interestingly, I DO sometimes hate reality TV people. Which I guess is because even though I know editing basically turns real people into characters, there's still that elements of "No, this dick is not an interesting and well drawn fictional character, he is an actual dick in the actual world," which makes things different.
Hmm, I'd not considered reality TV, but yes - that's a whole different kettle of fish.

PS. I'm going to friend you, if that's okay, because I've seen your meta around and I like it. Plus Buffy+Dr. Who are awesome.
Oh it's more than OK! Welcome to. I ramble a lot, and love it when people join in. :)

[aerintine.livejournal.com]

I've stayed far away from the recent hate threads because, honestly, I find the notion of deriving pleasure and fun out of hating a character in poor taste.

I am devoted to the shows I'm devoted to because of the characters. I would not have anyone remove a blemish from a one of them - their cracks make them more human and therefore relatable. I'm riddled with cracks myself, and if I saw a comm or thread that was devoted to why I'm the most horrible a-hole who ever lived - yeah, I would be hurt. It's the same for these characters.

I might over-identify with characters on BtVS and AtS and as such feel the need to defend them as though they were real, and family. I admit it. I am unashamed of this, because loving them brings me much joy. Even characters who are blatantly evil, like Warren, are worth analyzing for their deeper meaning in the text. I do not have the same driving devotion to DW and TW, but I would still turn my nose up at a party to hate on one of their characters.

The whole thing perplexes me because I see all this energy, all this pomp and verve spent on something that is, at its core, draining and destructive. I would much rather see that energy channeled into something constructive.

It ends up being very Lord of the Flies, you know?

[elisi]

I've stayed far away from the recent hate threads because, honestly, I find the notion of deriving pleasure and fun out of hating a character in poor taste.
Yeah, can't really argue with that.

I am devoted to the shows I'm devoted to because of the characters. I would not have anyone remove a blemish from a one of them - their cracks make them more human and therefore relatable. I'm riddled with cracks myself, and if I saw a comm or thread that was devoted to why I'm the most horrible a-hole who ever lived - yeah, I would be hurt. It's the same for these characters.
*nods* It's not that I over-identify, as such, but I do love everyone, and having seen enough 'Buffy is an evil bitca who deserves to die' and 'Spike is a manipulative bastard who should be staked' for several lifetimes these things always leave a very bad taste in my mouth.

The whole thing perplexes me because I see all this energy, all this pomp and verve spent on something that is, at its core, draining and destructive. I would much rather see that energy channeled into something constructive.
Exactly - my default position is always to try to find something positive (hence my tag line), because why would I want to go looking for things that upset me? (Genuine problems are something else, and [good natured] mocking is always welcome!)

It ends up being very Lord of the Flies, you know?
It certainly can, yes. :(

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

I agree violently with this entire post. 100% freaking fandom Polyanna here too. Not apologising for it.

as long as all those things make sense for that character I'm happy.

This. I think, like you, I always have my meta-glasses on? Because I'm always way less bothered by characters' bad behaviour than everybody else seems to be. Like, if the text is clearly portraying X's actions as BAD (e.g. Buffy in the "Dead Things" alley scene), then it doesn't remotely bother me. Or, you know, I'll pretty much be over it by the end of the episode.

Of course, if the character isn't called out on their rage-inducing behaviour, then... rage is required. That's understandable. But still. That's an outside-the-story problem. I don't really see the point of blaming the character for not being punished enough.

But thinking further, maybe this is where such hate comes from - the desire to see a character punished more? E.g. All those people who hate Buffy for not suffering more for for her treatment of Spike. I have a difficult time with that sort of attitude, because it seems to be rooted in a desire for vengeance and, well, sadism. Which is a pretty bewildering side of human nature. I can understand it. I won't ever respect it.

I don't know, I feel like I'm often too ~logical with these things. I mean, hating a character is a visceral/emotional reaction. So, using the "they're SUPPOSED to be like that" argument feels kind of moot, in fandom. It doesn't account for those situations where something will hit a viewer in a sensitive spot. (Except, in those cases, what one hates is what that thing represents to them; not just the thing alone.)

I think the opposite of fullblown adoration for me is boring or (embarrassingly) badly-drawn characters.

Yep. Obviously, the worst crime a character can commit is to be boring. :)

I think that people often exaggerate 'hate' though. I mean, people often use 'hate' when what they actually mean is 'anger'. "I hated X when they did this."

I also feel that hatred and understanding are mutually exclusive. If you sympathise with a character at any point, you don't hate them! Hate is the wrong word. Hate is rooted in lack of understanding. So, if one displays good understanding of how a character works, but still intensely hates them, I'm inclined to think they're projecting. :)

I think I also have trouble hating fictional characters for 'moral' reasons, because honestly... I have a hard time thinking of myself as somehow "better" than them. I can't judge X for dealing with blah-blah-blah badly, because I'm pretty sure that were I in that situation, I would probably act worse. :) :)

[elisi]

I agree violently with this entire post. 100% freaking fandom Polyanna here too. Not apologising for it.
Where have you been all my fannish life? *glomps*

This. I think, like you, I always have my meta-glasses on? Because I'm always way less bothered by characters' bad behaviour than everybody else seems to be.
You and me both, apparently! Like... the AR? I don’t like it, it is problematic on any number of levels – but it made sense for the characters, so as long as I ignore all of fandom, I can live with it quite happily.

I don't really see the point of blaming the character for not being punished enough.
Precisely. Rant at the writer(s). (Although not to the point of being unable to see any of the good they do too!)

All those people who hate Buffy for not suffering more for for her treatment of Spike. I have a difficult time with that sort of attitude, because it seems to be rooted in a desire for vengeance
What I dislike most is the way people become unable to see any good at all in the character, because I think that sort of mindset is very damaging. If you look for things to upset you - then you will be upset!

I don't know, I feel like I'm often too ~logical with these things.
ZOMG me too! Not that things don't hit me emotionally (because they do) but the reason they hit me is because I’m invested, and I’m invested because I find the show interesting and challenging and full of meta. (I liked DW until SoD/TLotT, when I fell head over heels in love because of all the crunchy stuff going on between the Doctor and the Master. It's always the meta that gets me.) So yes, I always come from a place of logic. *g (Also I am lucky to be very issue-free, so not many things ping me.)

Yep. Obviously, the worst crime a character can commit is to be boring. :)
::cough::Adam::cough::

I think that people often exaggerate 'hate' though. I mean, people often use 'hate' when what they actually mean is 'anger'. "I hated X when they did this."
That is very true. I wish people would choose their words with more care.

Hate is rooted in lack of understanding. So, if one displays good understanding of how a character works, but still intensely hates them, I'm inclined to think they're projecting. :)
I think you're onto something there!

I can't judge X for dealing with blah-blah-blah badly, because I'm pretty sure that were I in that situation, I would probably act worse. :) :)
This! This SO MUCH! (Get out of my head!) Maybe I just have too much empathy, but I find it almost impoossible to judge. Well, not when it comes to things like Warren's crimes, but in that case what matters is that he’s in character. Otherwise though, I can always see things through the character’s eyes. Everyone makes bad choices sometimes, everyone gets scared, or runs away, or makes the wrong call. And when it comes to shows like BtVS or DW, where the characters face impossible choices – who am I to judge?

[vervet-monkey.livejournal.com]

Here via the daily!

Yes, yes I agree. There are characters that make me angry in the context of the show. Take Warren as your example, I disliked him for who he was in the show, but the character was awesome. I think people get confused over the difference, which can be very frustrating!

[elisi]

Here via the daily!
Hello, and welcome! Sorry this answer is so late! And yay - someone else who agrees! :)

Take Warren as your example, I disliked him for who he was in the show, but the character was awesome. I think people get confused over the difference, which can be very frustrating!
This! Exactly. I think the problems arise when someone is portrayed as good, but comes off as a douche, and isn’t called on it. Then people get angry. Still, that’s not the character’s fault...

[ogew.livejournal.com]

What is your icon from?
She looks like somebody I can appreciate.

[elisi]

It's River Song from Doctor Who. She's awesome and totally unapologetic about it! :)

(If you want to check out the show, you can start with S5 (the most recent one). It had a kinda second beginning then.)

[rebellious_toes]

Hey, someone who thinks like me! I could have written this.

as long as all those things make sense for that character I'm happy.

That sums up my thoughts pretty well. And if the character's behaviour doesn't make sense, I'd be annoyed with the writer, not the character.

I can't even bring myself to hate the Slitheen. I actually can't think of any character that I hate even a bit. Clearly I fail as a fan. :)

[elisi]

Hey, someone who thinks like me! I could have written this.
Judging from the responses to this post we are legion! :)

That sums up my thoughts pretty well. And if the character's behaviour doesn't make sense, I'd be annoyed with the writer, not the character.
Precisely. This is why it doesn’t make sense to me. Don’t kill the messenger, and all that.

I can't even bring myself to hate the Slitheen. I actually can't think of any character that I hate even a bit. Clearly I fail as a fan. :)
I don’t think I *hate* the Slitheen, to be honest – I just wish they were better used on SJA, where they’re just disposable villains that end up covering our heroes in goo. I feel sorry for them to be honest, they deserve better! (Or rather, they deserve not to be used ever again! *g) Maybe we should set up a we-love-everything comm?

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Character hate to the level I've seen on the post in question is beyond my understanding , especially if other people call their pals , inviting them to join in the hate!fest. :(

[elisi]

I don't know how it can be fun. Mocking I can understand (and enjoy), but this just leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

[kaffy_r]

I agree so hard that my head just imploded.

I think the only dramatic character I disliked so intensely that it could possibly be "hate" was Sylar, on Heroes. In that case, I contented myself with hissing at screen, and occasionally, for giggles, voting for him as "character most in need of disappearing" in various television polls. And then I'd forget about him, because I was interested in other characters, and didn't need to waste valuable picoseconds of my life with teh haet.

One of the aspects of anti-character wank and hatefests that I find most problematic is the large number of female characters whose haters appear to be female as well. My fear is that this speaks to all kinds of unhealthy attitudes about how we women view ourselves. I suppose that many a monograph's been written about it, in far more articulate ways than I might attempt.

I also find myself completely croggled at the idea of "either/or" that seems to be so central to many hate fests: either you love Character A and must therefore hate Character B, or you hate Character A and must therefore love Character B.

Which is total rubbish. One can love both Character A and Character B without one's imaginary worldview dissolving into fire and apocalypse.

[elisi]

I agree so hard that my head just imploded.
Oh dear! *carefully puts it back together* (Srsly though - thank you!)

And then I'd forget about him, because I was interested in other characters, and didn't need to waste valuable picoseconds of my life with teh haet.
*nods a lot* I only saw S1 of Heroes, and he seemed perfectly horribly good then (like Warren is a good baddie), but I heard various rumblings about how the writers had done all kinds of things with the character...) Anyway, yes. Grumbling, then mindwipe. :)

One of the aspects of anti-character wank and hatefests that I find most problematic is the large number of female characters whose haters appear to be female as well. My fear is that this speaks to all kinds of unhealthy attitudes about how we women view ourselves.
Oh this. *is sad* I remember reading The Writer's Tale, and when S4 is about to start RTD talks about getting ready for the Donna hate, because he *knows* how people respond to strong female characters. And if it even reaches the writers... *deep sigh* And as you say, it's way, way too often women tearing down women.

I also find myself completely croggled at the idea of "either/or" that seems to be so central to many hate fests: either you love Character A and must therefore hate Character B, or you hate Character A and must therefore love Character B.
I LOVE EVERYONE! I think this comes into play especially when it comes to ships. People love either Ianto or Gwen. (If you ship Jack/Ianto, you much hate Gwen. I do not understand this attitude.)

Also, icon snap! :)