Re. character hate.

[elisi]

I've been mulling this over, because clearly I'm an oddity in fandom. The thing is, I don't understand character hate. Literally, don't get it. (Also, it makes me sad. But that's another topic.)

Let me explain: People will talk about character Z, listing all the various ways in which s/he is annoying/entitled/misogynistic/manipulating etc. And it's not that I can't see their point - Z might be a walking, talking creep, and I might deeply dislike all his/her traits, but as long as all those things make sense for that character I'm happy.

Take Warren for instance - pretty much the most despicable guy we ever come across in BtVS, but what I'm concerned about is that his misogyny makes sense. Which it does - we see how he evolves, watch as he goes darker and darker, and I find that very interesting. If he was real I'd probably hate him, but he's not - he's a fictional character and a good, well-rounded one at that. So why would I hate him?

I do of course have characters that I love to tiny itty bitty pieces, that I can flail and squee about forever, and whose mere presence onscreen instantly makes life better, but I can't think of any characters who ruin things for me or make me furious. I think the opposite of fullblown adoration for me is boring or (embarrassingly) badly-drawn characters. I don't hate them (because they're usually too boring or annoying for that, and I am very good at ignoring stuff I dislike), and if necessary I can fanwank their existence into something useful, because I hate just tearing things down - much more rewarding to try to work out how something might fit in. ETA: See my meta on Caleb f.ex. (And this is one reasons s8 is frustrating - it is impossible for me to fanwank any of it! But I don't hate it.)

Actually - I've thought of an exception: The Slitheen. Not to mention their even more pointless relatives, the Blathereen. But then they truly are the absolute epitome of pointlessness. (I might look on them with kinder eyes if they hadn't been so overused on SJA. If I wanted to see people covered in goo, I'd watch Dick and Dom!)

Comments

[yourlibrarian]

I suspect it has something to do with how often someone is annoyed by versus hating actual people as well. I usually can't get worked up enough for that.

And with characters, at least, one is often intended to view a character as unlikeable or difficult or funny. Unfortunately, sometimes the funny comes off as annoying, and the unlikeable comes off as stubbornly sympathetic ;)

You're also right about the difference between a character and knowing someone like that. I think Cordelia is an excellent example of a character most of us probably wouldn't want to know (at least not until later). But she was SO much fun to watch! I am usually much more upset by character assassination or neglect than the characters themselves.

On that note I think it's a character that's exasperating and just not working that usually bugs me much more. And that's sometimes because the writers are clearly far more entertained by said character than the audience is. It makes it start to seem like they're just writing for themselves and not an audience, which is why a genuine Mary Sue also tends to make for unreadable stories. Eye-rollitis is a genuine condition!

[deird1]

*loves your thoughts*

[elisi]

Aw, thank you! :)

[elisi]

And with characters, at least, one is often intended to view a character as unlikeable or difficult or funny.
Well in the example that sparked this post the opposite was true - it was a character clearly meant to be liked, and thus invoking anger because of the way he got a lot of free passes. Although again, it speaks about the disparity between the writers' intention and the way the audience perceives the character, something rather tricky...

I am usually much more upset by character assassination or neglect than the characters themselves.
This, very, very much!

It makes it start to seem like they're just writing for themselves and not an audience, which is why a genuine Mary Sue also tends to make for unreadable stories. Eye-rollitis is a genuine condition!
LOL! But yes, this is what I was getting at above. Plus, of course, there's the fact that the viewers will all have wildly differing opinions - a character than my love could be hated by others... *deep sigh*

[yourlibrarian]

So true. Even dreaded Mary Sues get love from some readers -- it's all relative.

[elisi]

*cough*Twilight*cough*

[shapinglight]

I don't understand the extremes of character hate either. I do understand the frustration people can feel when they perceive a character's actions one way and realise that the creators of that character are clueless as to how they come across to some people, but when that happens to me it tends to make me irritated with the creators rather than the characters, and if the character in question still works in context then they're not complete failures anyway.

[elisi]

Yes, exactly! My issues tend to go straight over the heads of the characters and straight to the writers.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Same here. i don't care so much if a character is likable but a lot more if he's constructed well.

I do occasionally find characters annoying, but the fact that I find Jar Jar Binks annoying doesn't drive me to write long essays on his moral inferiority.

I think that might also be my main problem with S8. Characters go dark and do bad things? Great! But let them do so with working motivations and character development, don't turn them into morons overnight.

[diamondtook862.livejournal.com]

I think it really does come down to not wanting to tear things down. These characters are real enough that we write continued stories about them, why would we destroy the groundwork that makes any of them who they are? All kinds of characters are necessary for a good story, and in Buffy most are pretty complex.

I also completely agree about the Slitheen- icky and they make so little sense. :P I like the Lady Slitheen (Margaret? It's been a while) as a character, I just don't like the species...

[elisi]

Same here. i don't care so much if a character is likable but a lot more if he's constructed well.
I think that, for me at least, I obviously always come to shows with my meta glasses on. *g*

I do occasionally find characters annoying, but the fact that I find Jar Jar Binks annoying doesn't drive me to write long essays on his moral inferiority.
He's annoying, but also loyal and brave! Doesn't make me want to watch him, at all, but I could never hate him. Just avoid him at all costs!

Characters go dark and do bad things? Great! But let them do so with working motivations and character development, don't turn them into morons overnight.
So much word!

[elisi]

I think it really does come down to not wanting to tear things down.
*nods a lot* Also, I've written enough fic to know that even the most despicable character can be fascinating to explore!

I also completely agree about the Slitheen- icky and they make so little sense. :P
How did they develop technology with those giant claws???

I like the Lady Slitheen (Margaret? It's been a while) as a character, I just don't like the species...
Oh yes, Margaret was good, partly because she was allowed to be developed as a character, rather than just be the Bad Guy that could be blown up willy-nilly.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Especially when it's in direct contrast of the last time you saw them.

[solitary-summer.livejournal.com]

I don't get it either, and most of all I don't get why people chose to obsess on that hatred to the point of forming communities. I do to an extent understand reacting immediately to the character rather than taking the dislike to a meta/writer level; there are a few issues, especially violent misogyny, that for me trigger—without actually being a trigger—a strong, irrational emotional reaction. Characters like Warren or Caleb, or even Angelus, simply repulse me, but that means that I want to spend as little time as possible thinking about them, not turn my dislike into a hobby.

But all of the above are pretty extreme cases, and when a character isn't an outright sociopath, but a normal human being with (give or take) normal weaknesses and strengths and (again, give or take) normal human reactions, I really don't understand the virulent hatred. And it's not as if people are setting up communities to hate on characters like Warren; it's characters like Gwen that get bashed, and this is something I simply don't get. With people like that I can't help but wonder if they go through life judging others this harshly, too, and mostly it makes me want to stay away from them.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

My own character 'hate' usually comes from annoyance that my view doesn't coincide with the author's view. That's why I never hate villains, usually. They're bad people, but they're not portrayed as good people, so fine.

But then you'd have someone like, say, Riley, who I think comes across as way different than we're supposed to see them, so I kinda hate that character.

[elisi]

Ah, but the RIley thing is exactly what I mean! I can definitely see why he annoys people. He was written as the perfect metaphor for male privilege, except I'm not sure the writers did it on purpose, which makes things complicated. But - Riley himself is a perfectly realised character, and I don't hate him, even when he's being an entitled jerk. That's just part of who he is. (He is also a bit boring, which is far worse... *g*)

That said, 'Into the Woods' and 'As You Were' are episodes that make me very cross - but my anger is directed at the writers, not the characters.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know. :) For the most part, though, I ignore writers as much as I can when experiencing the story. In the broader view, they're there, but not when reading, unless they make it impossible to ignore them, like the comics. :P

But I think a lot of people are like that and don't see the writers, so it ends up being a case of hating the messenger.

[elisi]

I do to an extent understand reacting immediately to the character rather than taking the dislike to a meta/writer level; there are a few issues, especially violent misogyny, that for me trigger—without actually being a trigger—a strong, irrational emotional reaction.
See that I can understand. I don't feel like that, but I can understand it. I don't understand how hating a character can be *fun*. (Well - I like to mock. I can mock until the cows come home - see Twilight - but it comes from a place of not taking the subject seriously.)

And it's not as if people are setting up communities to hate on characters like Warren; it's characters like Gwen that get bashed, and this is something I simply don't get.
You know, I'd managed to forget (or probably repress) the Gwen-bashing. *shudders* Like you, I find it unappealing in the extreme. It's one of the reasons I stay far away from most of TW fandom.

[elisi]

In the broader view, they're there, but not when reading, unless they make it impossible to ignore them, like the comics. :P
*snerk*

But I think a lot of people are like that and don't see the writers, so it ends up being a case of hating the messenger.
Yes, I can see that. Although it makes me sad...

[adoxerella.livejournal.com]

Okay, so we'll see if I can make this make sense with a lack of coffee in my system, because I need to pipe in and say wordy mcword word...or something.

I totally agree with what you said about being annoyed at a character, but not really getting hate directed at a fictional character. In fact one of the things I enjoy is seeing a creator do everything in their power to make you dislike a character and then all of the sudden yank the rug out from under you by making them sympathetic.

The thing the baffles me even more are those who feel the need to loath a character in order justify liking another character or ship. Why do you have to hate another character to make your favorite character seem better? To me that would indicate that your motivations for liking a character were kind of weak. Even at the height of my 'OMG B/A is the greatest couple alive and no other shall ever top it eleventy-one' stage I didn't hate Riley because he was dating Buffy. I actually kind of liked him until he decided not to trust his girlfriend. That was what did him in as a likable character for me, not the fact that he was with Buffy instead of Angel.

I could go on, but I already feel like I am hijacking your entry, so I will shut up. Plus it hurts to think, so I obviously need more coffee.

[elisi]

Look, here's Ianto with some coffee for you! :) Although you've done pretty well without...

In fact one of the things I enjoy is seeing a creator do everything in their power to make you dislike a character and then all of the sudden yank the rug out from under you by making them sympathetic.
This is an excellent point! And yes, I love that too - it's wonderful when characters get another layer.

The thing the baffles me even more are those who feel the need to loath a character in order justify liking another character or ship.
Word. solitary_summer mentioned Gwen-bashing in her comment, and that is probably one of the greatest extremes - and so utterly mysterious to me, since she is in no way a threat to Jack/Ianto. She and Ianto even gang up on Jack - THERE IS NO CONFLICT! *shakes head* Tis a mystery. Plus, like you say - it does look like overcompensation.

And never worry about rambling in this LJ! That's what it's for! :)

[adoxerella.livejournal.com]

Mmmmm, Ianto coffee...

This is an excellent point! And yes, I love that too - it's wonderful when characters get another layer.
I have to say my favorite version of this is when it is done without 'redeeming' the character in any way. When a character is unrepentantly bad, but you still feel sorry when they die, then it is a great deal of fun. The best example I can think of is the main villain in the Fullmetal Alchemist manga who doesn't repent a damn thing about it's actions, and even defends them, but a part of you still feels sorry about how it dies (and somewhere Arakawa-sensei cackles with glee). Sadly it loses something in the description if you don't have a frame of reference (which you should get because it is so very, very good /fangirling).

I never got the Gwen-bashing thing either. Sure Jack flirts with Gwen, but Jack flirts with everyone. Sure Gwen kind of flirts back, but she also is very loyal to her fiance. Of course, I tend to solve this sort of shipper issue by throwing all three parties into bed together (*cough*S/B/A*cough*) but that could just be me.

Now I need to get ready for work. :-( The life of a retail slave. So very not exciting.

[elisi]

I have to say my favorite version of this is when it is done without 'redeeming' the character in any way. When a character is unrepentantly bad, but you still feel sorry when they die, then it is a great deal of fun.
I am trying to think of another example of this - the Master in EoT maybe? And Spike a lot when he's evil... (And one day I might get round to watching all the shows I miss. *deep sigh*)

Of course, I tend to solve this sort of shipper issue by throwing all three parties into bed together (*cough*S/B/A*cough*) but that could just be me.
Oh you're not alone there! And I'm pretty sure Jack would be onboard with the idea too! *g*

And I hope you have a good day!

[me-llamo-nic.livejournal.com]

I love these thoughts. I'm frequently lost when it comes to all the hate.

And yes, Boomtown is easily the best Slitheen episode.

[elisi]

Thank you - I sorta feel like I'm talking a different language.

I think it's because Margaret is a properly developed character, rather than someone the heroes can throw vinegar over...