CoE. More thoughts on the main themes.

[elisi]

Have been reading reviews and done a fair bit of thinking. These are just fairly random thoughts, but I just wanted to put them down all in one place.

Firstly, then I think Jack summed up the central message in Day 4, although I think it got kinda overshadowed by all the angst:

An injury to one, is an injury to all.

Just look at these statistics. If we truly believed in that saying, wouldn't the world be a much different place?

So much of CoE is an illustration of "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." And it isn't an abstract, it isn't a silly sci-fi monster come to kill us... it's every day. Now. Look at Iran, where good 'men' have finally said "Enough!" Oh, they've not changed the regime - not yet. But I believe they will. ("Nothing can stand in the way of the power of millions of voices calling for change." Obama)

What Ianto's death illustrated so beautifully and heartbreakingly, is that for so many of us it comes down to "Not him!" Not *my* favourite character. We condemned the politicians for excluding their own children, and yet we wanted Ianto excluded, because he was ours. And it's just a TV show, with fictional characters... How much stronger do those feelings run in real life? Yes we want mobile phones/roads/airports, as long as nothing is built in our back yard. Of course we have nothing against asylum seekers - just don't house them next door. Of course we give to charity, as long as it doesn't interfere with the car payments.

If it was *our* children dying because there was no clean water, wouldn't we be outraged? Wouldn't we do anything in our power to change things? I think I might actually have to quote the Bible. In the parable about the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25, 31-46), it's how people have treated others (the poor, the strangers, the sick, those in prison) that determines their fate... And it also suddenly sheds a new light on the command to leave behind family (can't remember the exact wording, and am in too much of a rush to look it up) - to be a Christian means not playing favourites, ever. (Might add more on this later. Must go pick up children from school.)

Going back to Jack, then I love the mirroring between him and Frobisher. Both men were perfect illustrations of this poem by Niemöller (from here):

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not protest;
I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me.

Not only did they stand by, they helped facilitate something they knew to be deeply wrong, but didn't speak up. And then they had to pay the price, had to suffer the same fate they'd prepared for others.

I still can't quite believe that the show actually went there.

Comments

[adriana-is.livejournal.com]

Very well said.

Not only did they stand by, they helped facilitate something they knew to be deeply wrong, but didn't speak up. And then they had to pay the price, had to suffer the same fate they'd prepared for others. Exactly!!

And who is to say we wouldn't do the same given the circumstances? Desperation is a terrible, tragic thing.

[elisi]

Very well said.
Thank you. :)

And who is to say we wouldn't do the same given the circumstances? Desperation is a terrible, tragic thing.
That's the thing, and that's what made it so powerful. Everyone was just so *human*.

[debris4spike]

That is so true - we did condemn the poltititians, glad that we didn't have to make that choice, but yet hated seeing Ianto (and Tosh and Owen) die.

You do really make us think don't you?

[elisi]

That is so true - we did condemn the poltititians, glad that we didn't have to make that choice, but yet hated seeing Ianto (and Tosh and Owen) die.
It's never easy, and the fact that this didn't shy away from that is what I love the most.

You do really make us think don't you?
*iz proud* Although the show makes me think and then I pass all my thoughts onto you. In case you're interested, I edited the post to include some thoughts from the Bible (That's how much it's making me think...) It rather amuses me that both Joss and RTD, such staunch atheists, continue to create stories with lots of Christianity in them - not sure I put that quite right, but I think you know what I mean.

[musicianatheart.livejournal.com]

We condemned the politicians for excluding their own children, and yet we wanted Ianto excluded, because he was ours.

omg yes, this. it's just a reach from where I was with it, but a point I never saw myself. that it went beyond the show itself and to us as well. thank you for that.

[elisi]

omg yes, this. it's just a reach from where I was with it, but a point I never saw myself. that it went beyond the show itself and to us as well. thank you for that.
My pleasure. Your post was one of those that helped me suddenly grasp that insight. :)

[pfeifferpack.livejournal.com]

Oh yes that was BRILLIANT! They knocked down that third wall and drew fandom into the story with that didn't they?

Excellent meta as always.

Kathleen

[elisi]

Aw, thank you. *blushes*

The best insight so far, was from kraken_wakes (her post is here) who in a comment said this:

The difference between DW and COE is that in the former, it is the characters (most commonly, but not exclusively the Doctor) who are challenged on the issue of morality and ethics. In the latter, it is the audience. It's show not tell.

[pfeifferpack.livejournal.com]

Oh indeed! I am startled at the brilliance of it still. I will be sadly disappointed if it is not nominated for a Hugo award (excellence in Science Fiction). It should be a clear cut winner.

Kathleen

[elisi]

Oh indeed! I am startled at the brilliance of it still.
Same here. It ripped out my heart and tore it into little pieces, but it was still one of the most brilliant things I've ever seen.

I will be sadly disappointed if it is not nominated for a Hugo award (excellence in Science Fiction). It should be a clear cut winner.
Oh yes.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Very good Niemöller quote. You know what your entry also reminds me of?

"Of all the people to survive, he's not the one you'd have chosen, is he? But if you could make that choice, Doctor, it would make you a monster." (From Voyager of the Damned. VotD has a bad rep, and it's not my favourite of the Christmas specials, but there is some good stuff in there, and what I love about this scene in particular is that Rusty cleverly turns the viewers reactions against them because we the audience of course would have prefered it if instead of the greedy opportunist the loving working class couple had survived, or Astrid, and yes, the Doctor would have, too. But he did indeed keep himself from making that choice and tried his best to keep the Braxtons of this world as much alive as the nice guys.)

Also, Fires of Pompeii (script by James Moran, heavily rewritten by RTD), where in the end the Doctor has not just to stand by by but to actively kill the inhabitants of Pompeii to save the rest of the world. (And the ensuing catastrophe is shown to us the audience in graphic impact.) Donna after helping him with this pleads with him to save someone. Is saving the Caecilii instead of random people from the market place fair, just because Donna and the Doctor knew them? Not really. But it's in lack of a better term human.

[elisi]

"Of all the people to survive, he's not the one you'd have chosen, is he? But if you could make that choice, Doctor, it would make you a monster."
Oh I *love* your brain. And yes, that's it exactly - it's fascinating to go back and find this theme in other places. Most of all I love the fact that he actually picked it up and explored it in detail. Even if it killed my show.

Is saving the Caecilii instead of random people from the market place fair, just because Donna and the Doctor knew them? Not really. But it's in lack of a better term human.
Human indeed. And Donna was, I think, above all else human - which of course she declares herself to be in that very episode. And... oh, she grapples with the whole 'killing some so that others may live'. Fine, fine episode.

[diachrony.livejournal.com]

I love reading your meta on CoE, even though it will be a long time before I get to see it myself. Just wanted to let you know!

[elisi]

Thank you! (Although you shouldn't spoil yourself... *tries to look cross*)

[srah-scottydog.livejournal.com]

"Never doubt that a small group of dedicated people can change the world. Do you know why?"
"Because they're the only ones who have."

Well said on everything.

[elisi]

Thank you. And that's a brilliant quote!

[srah-scottydog.livejournal.com]

All bow to The West Wing
Immensely quotable on every subject =)

[elisi]

*bows to the West Wing*

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

What Ianto's death illustrated so beautifully and heartbreakingly, is that for so many of us it comes down to "Not him!" Not *my* favourite character.

Uh-huh. Actually, I think the fact that they went there is one of the things I liked best about it. Oh, don't get me wrong, I loved Ianto too and I'll miss him. But his death had impact that those random plot-device characters didn't have because we loved him. Of course I cheat-- I like TW, but I'm not terribly fanish about it. Killing Donna or Rose would have been much harder on me!

I like your biblical parallels-- RTD really is terrible at being an athiest, isn't he?

[elisi]

But his death had impact that those random plot-device characters didn't have because we loved him.
Which is one reason they went there of course...

Killing Donna or Rose would have been much harder on me!
If I could swap... I'd be moving at light speed!

I like your biblical parallels-- RTD really is terrible at being an athiest, isn't he?
He really is. Ans ditto Joss. It's quite funny really - I hope one day they see what the stories they've been telling are really about. :)

[(Anonymous)]

While I do love reading your analyses and your stories, you do realise you're saying it's impossible for a Buddhist or Hindu or Atheist to think that it's important to care about strangers as well as family (or any other ethical standpoint that may also happen to be mentioned in the Bible) without being *secretly Christian*?

As you said, it's human to think more of 'us' than of 'them', and that often leads to the assumption that virtues are 'ours' and vices are 'theirs'. I suspect (and hope) you didn't intend to be the object lesson in this case!

[elisi]

Oh goodness me no!

*hits self over head repeatedly*

I used Christianity because it's the faith I'm familiar with, and really meant for it to be taken as 'faith in God generally' as opposed to 'atheism'. Not that I think atheists can't be just as good (if not better) than believers, but that both Joss and RTD tell deeply faithful stories, probably without realising it.

I'm VERY SORRY if I offended anyone.