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TW Meta: Is Jack worse than John?
This morning ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
antelope_writes posted an analysis of the Jack/John confrontation scene in KKBB - the second one, in the medical bay.
You should really go read it, it’s fascinating, but at the end she said (amongst other things):
it is a reasonable possibility that Jack was *worse* than John.
Now this made me think, and then think again - and I soon realised that my thoughts would never fit in a comment, so here is a little Jack-meta... Just how bad is he? (Spoilers for everything, obviously.)
First of all two quotes sprang to mind - both from ‘The Doctor Dances’, when we’re just getting to know Jack, and they’re both very telling:
JACK: I even programmed the flight computer so it wouldn't land on anything living - I harmed no-one! I don't know what's happening here, but believe me - I had nothing to do with it.
He’s angry here, and defensive, pointing out that he has been very careful... John wouldn’t have cared about casualties (and would have said so, too), but Jack does. However laid-back he may be morally, he’s no sociopath. (Or psychopath, dunno what label best fits John.)
But - soon afterwards he reveals a little more about himself:
ROSE: So, you used to BE a Time Agent - now you're trying to con them?
JACK (fiddling with the controls): If it makes me sound any better, it's not for the money.
ROSE: For what?
JACK: Woke up one day when I was working for them - found they'd stolen two years of my memories. I'd like them back.
ROSE: They stole your memories?
JACK: Two years of my life. No idea what I did.
(The Doctor watches him.)
JACK (CONT'D): Your friend over there doesn't trust me. And for all I know... he's right not to.
I find this fascinating - if Jack wasn’t dangerous, there would be no point to the warning. But he clearly *is* dangerous, and also worried at what he is capable of...
So... let’s backtrack. Why is he dangerous and how? We only ever get told snippets of Jack’s past, but they do reveal a lot about how he became who he is. First there was the attack on his home by those unnamed ‘creatures’ - killing his father and abducting his brother. This is clearly what led to his running away from home:
JACK: I went to war when I was a boy. I was with my best friend. We
got caught crossing the border over enemy lines. They tortured him because he was weaker. They made me watch him die. And they let me go.
THE CAPTAIN: Who were they?
JACK: The worst possible creatures you can imagine. I persuaded him to join up. I said it would be an adventure. He hadn't lived.
TW 1.12
To quotefodian: His best friend was tortured in front him when they were kids. He then grew up to be the torturer. How do you come back from that? You don't.
Still... there’s a difference:
GRAY: Those creatures, they lived to torture.
JACK: You need to know something. A long time ago, I was pretty good at torture. You see, I had quite a reputation as the go-to guy. My job demanded it at the time, you see. So I know where to apply the tiniest amount of pressure to a wound like yours.
TW 1.06
Yes, Jack clearly knows every dirty trick in the book, but he uses them for a reason. His job demanded that he tortured - in ‘Countrycide’ he wants to know where his team is... He is not indifferent to suffering (like John) and he doesn’t get off on others’ pain (like, say, the Master). But he knows that sometimes you have to do terrible things for the sake of saving the day, sacrificing others or yourself. From ‘Parting of the Ways’:
JACK (to the Doctor): You sent her home. She's safe. Keep working.
EMPEROR DALEK: But he will exterminate you!
JACK (grinning): Never doubted him, never will.
So - is Jack worse than John? It’s a tricky question, but I think Jack certainly has the *potential*... Let me try to explain what I mean by looking at what they have to say for themselves:
JOHN HART: We're a cosmic joke, eye candy, an accident of chemicals and evolution. The jokes, the sex - just cover the fact that nothing means anything. And the only consolation is ... MONEY.
JACK: These people. This planet. All the beauty you could never see. That's what I come back for.
That’s the difference I think - Jack *cares*. And people who care about something other than themselves are inherently more dangerous than those who don’t. (*resists Angel quote*)
We can see maybe the ultimate example of this in the Doctor and the Master during the Time War. The Master, terrified, fled to save himself. The Doctor (no less terrified I’m sure), couldn’t let the Daleks conquer the universe and so committed double genocide.
The same things come into play with Jack and John - in Jack’s case we see it specifically in ‘Adam’:
ADAM: I don't want to die! You take that pill and you will lose everything I've given you. Wipe me out now and you will lose all your memories of your father. He will cease to have existed for you.
JACK: Goodbye, Adam.
Jack is willing to die/do whatever it takes for the sake of the mission/the world/his friends... And that makes him dangerous - and John knows this. Did Jack commit worse crimes than John, back in the day? I don't know. So, I guess I'm just going in circles without finding any answers, sorry.
ETA: There's also this of course:
JACK: I was the only one who could ever control him. That's why the Time Agency partnered us.
If Jack could control John, then Jack must have somehow shown John that he (Jack) was the stronger man/top dog... How he did that would tell a lot. (Unless of course it was all down to personality? OK, I'm going to stop now!)
(Although writing this has made me wonder if maybe John knows what Jack did in those two missing years? *ponders*)
antelope_writes posted an analysis of the Jack/John confrontation scene in KKBB - the second one, in the medical bay.You should really go read it, it’s fascinating, but at the end she said (amongst other things):
it is a reasonable possibility that Jack was *worse* than John.
Now this made me think, and then think again - and I soon realised that my thoughts would never fit in a comment, so here is a little Jack-meta... Just how bad is he? (Spoilers for everything, obviously.)
First of all two quotes sprang to mind - both from ‘The Doctor Dances’, when we’re just getting to know Jack, and they’re both very telling:
JACK: I even programmed the flight computer so it wouldn't land on anything living - I harmed no-one! I don't know what's happening here, but believe me - I had nothing to do with it.
He’s angry here, and defensive, pointing out that he has been very careful... John wouldn’t have cared about casualties (and would have said so, too), but Jack does. However laid-back he may be morally, he’s no sociopath. (Or psychopath, dunno what label best fits John.)
But - soon afterwards he reveals a little more about himself:
ROSE: So, you used to BE a Time Agent - now you're trying to con them?
JACK (fiddling with the controls): If it makes me sound any better, it's not for the money.
ROSE: For what?
JACK: Woke up one day when I was working for them - found they'd stolen two years of my memories. I'd like them back.
ROSE: They stole your memories?
JACK: Two years of my life. No idea what I did.
(The Doctor watches him.)
JACK (CONT'D): Your friend over there doesn't trust me. And for all I know... he's right not to.
I find this fascinating - if Jack wasn’t dangerous, there would be no point to the warning. But he clearly *is* dangerous, and also worried at what he is capable of...
So... let’s backtrack. Why is he dangerous and how? We only ever get told snippets of Jack’s past, but they do reveal a lot about how he became who he is. First there was the attack on his home by those unnamed ‘creatures’ - killing his father and abducting his brother. This is clearly what led to his running away from home:
JACK: I went to war when I was a boy. I was with my best friend. We
got caught crossing the border over enemy lines. They tortured him because he was weaker. They made me watch him die. And they let me go.
THE CAPTAIN: Who were they?
JACK: The worst possible creatures you can imagine. I persuaded him to join up. I said it would be an adventure. He hadn't lived.
TW 1.12
To quote
fodian: His best friend was tortured in front him when they were kids. He then grew up to be the torturer. How do you come back from that? You don't.Still... there’s a difference:
GRAY: Those creatures, they lived to torture.
JACK: You need to know something. A long time ago, I was pretty good at torture. You see, I had quite a reputation as the go-to guy. My job demanded it at the time, you see. So I know where to apply the tiniest amount of pressure to a wound like yours.
TW 1.06
Yes, Jack clearly knows every dirty trick in the book, but he uses them for a reason. His job demanded that he tortured - in ‘Countrycide’ he wants to know where his team is... He is not indifferent to suffering (like John) and he doesn’t get off on others’ pain (like, say, the Master). But he knows that sometimes you have to do terrible things for the sake of saving the day, sacrificing others or yourself. From ‘Parting of the Ways’:
JACK (to the Doctor): You sent her home. She's safe. Keep working.
EMPEROR DALEK: But he will exterminate you!
JACK (grinning): Never doubted him, never will.
So - is Jack worse than John? It’s a tricky question, but I think Jack certainly has the *potential*... Let me try to explain what I mean by looking at what they have to say for themselves:
JOHN HART: We're a cosmic joke, eye candy, an accident of chemicals and evolution. The jokes, the sex - just cover the fact that nothing means anything. And the only consolation is ... MONEY.
JACK: These people. This planet. All the beauty you could never see. That's what I come back for.
That’s the difference I think - Jack *cares*. And people who care about something other than themselves are inherently more dangerous than those who don’t. (*resists Angel quote*)
We can see maybe the ultimate example of this in the Doctor and the Master during the Time War. The Master, terrified, fled to save himself. The Doctor (no less terrified I’m sure), couldn’t let the Daleks conquer the universe and so committed double genocide.
The same things come into play with Jack and John - in Jack’s case we see it specifically in ‘Adam’:
ADAM: I don't want to die! You take that pill and you will lose everything I've given you. Wipe me out now and you will lose all your memories of your father. He will cease to have existed for you.
JACK: Goodbye, Adam.
Jack is willing to die/do whatever it takes for the sake of the mission/the world/his friends... And that makes him dangerous - and John knows this. Did Jack commit worse crimes than John, back in the day? I don't know. So, I guess I'm just going in circles without finding any answers, sorry.
ETA: There's also this of course:
JACK: I was the only one who could ever control him. That's why the Time Agency partnered us.
If Jack could control John, then Jack must have somehow shown John that he (Jack) was the stronger man/top dog... How he did that would tell a lot. (Unless of course it was all down to personality? OK, I'm going to stop now!)
(Although writing this has made me wonder if maybe John knows what Jack did in those two missing years? *ponders*)
no subject
With Jack, that is not the case, he has guilt, but has done terrible things. He has empathy, which I would suspect he would need to overcome to torture. Having said that, he overcame them, he put his own survival over the suffering he inflected in others. He also took John as a lover while they where trapped. At some point during this time he must've known that John wasn't 'normal', then it might be agrued that none of the Time Agents were 'normal', going from Jack and John.
Therefore Jack even with his sense of guilt and empathy, still did these things. That is what makes him worse, that he had the knowledge
no subject
I kinda hate it when people sum up an entire post in one sentence. WHich is my roundabout way of saying 'Yes, I agree!'
Just one thing:
Having said that, he overcame them, he put his own survival over the suffering he inflected in others.
We don't know the circumstances, and the only times we've *seen* him inflict suffering it was for the sake of something other than himself. (That doesn't make it right, but it's another distinction from John.)
no subject
We don't know the circumstances, and the only times we've *seen* him inflict suffering it was for the sake of something other than himself. (That doesn't make it right, but it's another distinction from John.)
True, we don't know who, or what he was trying to save, but as it happened before he met the Doctor and was influenced by him, I suspect he was a more selfish person at that point. It was something The Doctor taught him, self sarcrifice. At least IMHO!
no subject
I'd say yes and no - I think he started out idealistic, and then (thanks to life experiences etc) became rather cynical and aloof. The Doctor helped him to understand what it means to be a real hero.
no subject
*reminds self my journal is a fluffy, puffy, rose coloured glasses journal*
No Meta at my journal....no meta at my journal! I do that in comments to others who do it far better!
no subject
Heeee! Right now I'm very happy that I do not watch SPN! :)