elisi | TW Meta: Is Jack worse than John?

Entry tags:

torchwood

TW Meta: Is Jack worse than John?

This morning

antelope_writes posted an analysis of the Jack/John confrontation scene in KKBB - the second one, in the medical bay.

You should really go read it, it’s fascinating, but at the end she said (amongst other things):

it is a reasonable possibility that Jack was *worse* than John.

Now this made me think, and then think again - and I soon realised that my thoughts would never fit in a comment, so here is a little Jack-meta... Just how bad is he? (Spoilers for everything, obviously.)

First of all two quotes sprang to mind - both from ‘The Doctor Dances’, when we’re just getting to know Jack, and they’re both very telling:

JACK: I even programmed the flight computer so it wouldn't land on anything living - I harmed no-one! I don't know what's happening here, but believe me - I had nothing to do with it.

He’s angry here, and defensive, pointing out that he has been very careful... John wouldn’t have cared about casualties (and would have said so, too), but Jack does. However laid-back he may be morally, he’s no sociopath. (Or psychopath, dunno what label best fits John.)

But - soon afterwards he reveals a little more about himself:

ROSE: So, you used to BE a Time Agent - now you're trying to con them?
JACK (fiddling with the controls): If it makes me sound any better, it's not for the money.
ROSE: For what?
JACK: Woke up one day when I was working for them - found they'd stolen two years of my memories. I'd like them back.
ROSE: They stole your memories?
JACK: Two years of my life. No idea what I did.
(The Doctor watches him.)
JACK (CONT'D): Your friend over there doesn't trust me. And for all I know... he's right not to.

I find this fascinating - if Jack wasn’t dangerous, there would be no point to the warning. But he clearly *is* dangerous, and also worried at what he is capable of...

So... let’s backtrack. Why is he dangerous and how? We only ever get told snippets of Jack’s past, but they do reveal a lot about how he became who he is. First there was the attack on his home by those unnamed ‘creatures’ - killing his father and abducting his brother. This is clearly what led to his running away from home:

JACK: I went to war when I was a boy. I was with my best friend. We
got caught crossing the border over enemy lines. They tortured him because he was weaker. They made me watch him die. And they let me go.

THE CAPTAIN: Who were they?

JACK: The worst possible creatures you can imagine. I persuaded him to join up. I said it would be an adventure. He hadn't lived.
TW 1.12

To quote

fodian: His best friend was tortured in front him when they were kids. He then grew up to be the torturer. How do you come back from that? You don't.

Still... there’s a difference:

GRAY: Those creatures, they lived to torture.

JACK: You need to know something. A long time ago, I was pretty good at torture. You see, I had quite a reputation as the go-to guy. My job demanded it at the time, you see. So I know where to apply the tiniest amount of pressure to a wound like yours.
TW 1.06

Yes, Jack clearly knows every dirty trick in the book, but he uses them for a reason. His job demanded that he tortured - in ‘Countrycide’ he wants to know where his team is... He is not indifferent to suffering (like John) and he doesn’t get off on others’ pain (like, say, the Master). But he knows that sometimes you have to do terrible things for the sake of saving the day, sacrificing others or yourself. From ‘Parting of the Ways’:

JACK (to the Doctor): You sent her home. She's safe. Keep working.
EMPEROR DALEK: But he will exterminate you!
JACK (grinning): Never doubted him, never will.

So - is Jack worse than John? It’s a tricky question, but I think Jack certainly has the *potential*... Let me try to explain what I mean by looking at what they have to say for themselves:

JOHN HART: We're a cosmic joke, eye candy, an accident of chemicals and evolution. The jokes, the sex - just cover the fact that nothing means anything. And the only consolation is ... MONEY.

JACK: These people. This planet. All the beauty you could never see. That's what I come back for.

That’s the difference I think - Jack *cares*. And people who care about something other than themselves are inherently more dangerous than those who don’t. (*resists Angel quote*)

We can see maybe the ultimate example of this in the Doctor and the Master during the Time War. The Master, terrified, fled to save himself. The Doctor (no less terrified I’m sure), couldn’t let the Daleks conquer the universe and so committed double genocide.

The same things come into play with Jack and John - in Jack’s case we see it specifically in ‘Adam’:

ADAM: I don't want to die! You take that pill and you will lose everything I've given you. Wipe me out now and you will lose all your memories of your father. He will cease to have existed for you.
JACK: Goodbye, Adam.

Jack is willing to die/do whatever it takes for the sake of the mission/the world/his friends... And that makes him dangerous - and John knows this. Did Jack commit worse crimes than John, back in the day? I don't know. So, I guess I'm just going in circles without finding any answers, sorry.

ETA: There's also this of course:

JACK: I was the only one who could ever control him. That's why the Time Agency partnered us.

If Jack could control John, then Jack must have somehow shown John that he (Jack) was the stronger man/top dog... How he did that would tell a lot. (Unless of course it was all down to personality? OK, I'm going to stop now!)

(Although writing this has made me wonder if maybe John knows what Jack did in those two missing years? *ponders*)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Ummmm! A few disjoined thoughts here. Taking that John is a sociopath or psychopath, whatever, then that would explain why the rehab didn't work on him. He has no conscence to appeal to, and is therefore without guilt. It might make him a less complex character, who really shouldn't be roaming free to do what he wants, but in himself is totally selfish and will persue his own goals without empathy.

With Jack, that is not the case, he has guilt, but has done terrible things. He has empathy, which I would suspect he would need to overcome to torture. Having said that, he overcame them, he put his own survival over the suffering he inflected in others. He also took John as a lover while they where trapped. At some point during this time he must've known that John wasn't 'normal', then it might be agrued that none of the Time Agents were 'normal', going from Jack and John.

Therefore Jack even with his sense of guilt and empathy, still did these things. That is what makes him worse, that he had the knowledge

Edited 2009-04-28 16:19 (UTC)

Therefore Jack even with his sense of guilt and empathy, still did these things. That is what makes him worse, that he had the knowledge
I kinda hate it when people sum up an entire post in one sentence. WHich is my roundabout way of saying 'Yes, I agree!'

Just one thing:

Having said that, he overcame them, he put his own survival over the suffering he inflected in others.
We don't know the circumstances, and the only times we've *seen* him inflict suffering it was for the sake of something other than himself. (That doesn't make it right, but it's another distinction from John.)

Having said that, he overcame them, he put his own survival over the suffering he inflected in others.
We don't know the circumstances, and the only times we've *seen* him inflict suffering it was for the sake of something other than himself. (That doesn't make it right, but it's another distinction from John.)

True, we don't know who, or what he was trying to save, but as it happened before he met the Doctor and was influenced by him, I suspect he was a more selfish person at that point. It was something The Doctor taught him, self sarcrifice. At least IMHO!

Edited 2009-04-28 16:42 (UTC)

It was something The Doctor taught him, self sarcrifice. At least IMHO!
I'd say yes and no - I think he started out idealistic, and then (thanks to life experiences etc) became rather cynical and aloof. The Doctor helped him to understand what it means to be a real hero.

*sigh* there goes my brain again on the psycholoy of the elder sibiling....first Dean, now Jack! I will resist, I will resist!

*reminds self my journal is a fluffy, puffy, rose coloured glasses journal*

No Meta at my journal....no meta at my journal! I do that in comments to others who do it far better!

Edited 2009-04-28 17:40 (UTC)

*sigh* there goes my brain again on the psycholoy of the elder sibiling....first Dean, now Jack! I will resist, I will resist!
Heeee! Right now I'm very happy that I do not watch SPN! :)

Fascinating! Though I'm just now catching up with S1 of TW (I've seen the first third and the last third of that season previously, and only the first and last episodes of S2), I could follow enough of this argument to think you're right about Jack being ultimately more dangerous (at least potentially) than John, though not necessarily 'worse' in any moral or ethical sense. Yes, the guy who cares about something or someone other than himself is far more likely to keep fighting when reason says to quit, and therefore has the potential to accomplish the seemingly impossible -- which can make him either a hero or an extremist, depending on the cause and the means he uses to fight for it.

The person who's lost the capacity for caring (the berserker in warfare, the one who's completely given over to the 'wrath of Achilles' in Jonathan Shay's terms) or who never possessed that capacity in the first place may be more dangerous to stand next to, but is less likely to change the course of worlds or nations, either for good or for ill.

Maybe?

Just wanted to say - I adore that icon!

It's thanks to the fertile brain of

rahirah!

I could follow enough of this argument to think you're right about Jack being ultimately more dangerous (at least potentially) than John, though not necessarily 'worse' in any moral or ethical sense.
Yes, that's what I was getting at. (I've made the same argument re. Angel - i.e. that Angel (if he went evil) would be far worse than Angelus.)

which can make him either a hero or an extremist, depending on the cause and the means he uses to fight for it.
*nods*

The person who's lost the capacity for caring (the berserker in warfare, the one who's completely given over to the 'wrath of Achilles' in Jonathan Shay's terms) or who never possessed that capacity in the first place may be more dangerous to stand next to, but is less likely to change the course of worlds or nations, either for good or for ill.
Oooh, I love how you put this. Yes, exactly.

I'm not a Capt Jack fan - I suppose in my little corner I saw Captn John as more about fun/life/love etc .... and whatever came along, he went with the flow ... although ultimately the few he loved he would work to help (like Capt Jack at the end).

Capt Jack, to me, is very selfish in his personal life - he keeps Ianto arround, yet flirts with Gwen. He now woks for the good of the planet - but is ruthless in what he does.

So - put the 2 against each other and Jack would drag John down .... IMHO!

I suppose in my little corner I saw Captn John as more about fun/life/love etc
And throwing people off buildings! :D

Capt Jack, to me, is very selfish in his personal life - he keeps Ianto arround, yet flirts with Gwen. He now woks for the good of the planet - but is ruthless in what he does.
BUT HOW CAN YOU NOT LOVE JACK? Ahem. I *do* appreciate your POV, honestly! Re. Jack's personal life, then I guess I'm more prepared to cut him some slack, partly because he comes from a different culture where his behavior is normal. Yes he wants Gwen, but he *does* abide the rules of the 21st century, and he never actually makes a move. (Also there's the fact that he's immortal and knows he'll lose everyone, and has probably been somewhat influenced by the Doctor's way of not getting too close to people. Not to mention commitment issues...) ETA: Re. work, then he can't *not* be ruthless. Even *Gwen* acknowledges this, although she sometimes disagrees with his methods.

So - put the 2 against each other and Jack would drag John down .... IMHO!
I'm so glad you commented, it's fascinating to find out what people think! :)

Edited 2009-04-28 17:58 (UTC)

And throwing people off buildings! ... But he did say OOooops!!!

Yes, I agree that his never going to die, would make it hard to make a commitment ... but seeing Angel and Spike go through that as well, I don't know that fully excuses his lack of commitment. Some people just can't, I suppose.

Thank you - it's done me good to think through some of these points.

Gmail responded to your comment with this link:
Men's Fear Of Intimacy - www.ReconnectYourRelationship.com - Cure His Fear! Bring Him Close & Make Him Want To Stay Forever
*is amused*

but seeing Angel and Spike go through that as well, I don't know that fully excuses his lack of commitment. Some people just can't, I suppose.
Hmmm. Well the thing is that Jack and Ianto's relationship doesn't actually start properly until S2. (A bit like Spuffy can be said not to start until S7 - S1 of TW can be seen as the S6 of BtVS. They have *something*, and it's real, but it is rather dysfunctional to put it mildly...) (Which is of course why I love it!) Jack isn't actually ready to commit to anyone, I don't think, until S2, and from then on the relationship does evolve nicely and quietly in the background. I don't know that Jack could ever be 100% monogamous, but he's definitely committed to Ianto by the end of S2. Re. Jack & Gwen, then I'm going to quote another post by

antelope_writes (Tommy and Tosh in TtLM, where she also looks at courtship behavior in general):

not once in the entire two seasons to date have Jack and Gwen ever engaged in *mutual* courtship behaviour. Gwen has attempted to initiate courtship behaviour with Jack on a few occasions in S2, notably at the beginning of Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang, in Adam, and in Something Borrowed, but Jack has never responded to her invitation to “dance.” While there are sexual and flirty elements to their relationship, such as when Jack plays the gallant and escorts Gwen to the SUV in Meat, the fact still remains that neither Jack nor Gwen have done anything more serious than the merest hints of courtship behaviour.

Anyway, I love my relationships to be complicated, and my heroes to have ISSUES, so Jack (& Ianto) seem to have been tailor-made for me. *g*

Hi there,

I think you missed my point a tiny little bit. Yes, it's reasonable to believe that Jack was as bad as (if not worse) than John--but the whole point of John being there, aside from a plot device for later on, is to point out just how much Jack has changed as a result of his life on Earth.

I submit that in Doctor Who, Jack is the Doctor's thug. He does all the dirty work that the Doctor won't or can't do, from destroying the paradox machine to setting off guns-a-blazing after Daleks. He's also the one to recommend violence (specifically, killing the Master on sight) as a first-line solution, and pointing out to the Doctor that in their case, violence would be a quick, efficient, and ultimately good solution to the problem. I also submit that the Doctor knows Jack is his own personal hit man, and while he's never pleased about using Jack in that capacity, he doesn't avoid doing so when it's clear that hit man is the appropriate answer.

Like I said over in my own page, it's not any one thing that is a smoking gun on just how bad Jack was or wasn't. The evidence in favour of him being a bad, bad, bad actor is made of a whole bunch of little things, all adding up. But, as I said, that scene highlights just how different Jack has become.

I think you missed my point a tiny little bit.
Yes, I kinda went off on a tangent... (Another reason to post this here, rather than as a response to your post.)

I also submit that the Doctor knows Jack is his own personal hit man, and while he's never pleased about using Jack in that capacity, he doesn't avoid doing so when it's clear that hit man is the appropriate answer.
*nods* Which is, I think, another reason the Doctor is somewhat uncomfortable with him - they're too alike in many ways.

Like I said over in my own page, it's not any one thing that is a smoking gun on just how bad Jack was or wasn't. The evidence in favour of him being a bad, bad, bad actor is made of a whole bunch of little things, all adding up.
If Jack wasn't so IMPOSSIBLY tongue-tied about his past, this would all be so much easier. As you say its all tiny little things - hints in what he says (or omits), hints in what he's willing to do, the ease with which he can become ruthless.

But, as I said, that scene highlights just how different Jack has become.
Oh yes. I don't think he was ever as casually violent as John, but he was once comfortable with the other man, and that says a lot!

I also submit that the Doctor knows Jack is his own personal hit man, and while he's never pleased about using Jack in that capacity, he doesn't avoid doing so when it's clear that hit man is the appropriate answer.

*jumping belately in the discussion*

I think you have to differ here between what the show does, and what the Doctor does. Because on a Doylist level, absolutely, DW the show uses Jack as a hit man in situations where it can't use the Doctor. BTW, doesn't mean Jack gets to do worse things than the Doctor - because the show does let the Doctor kill if there is no other way, and a big scale, too, see Runaway Bride - but Jack gets to shoot people, and this specific method of killing is something the Doctor, though sometimes coming close, is not shown to do. (Classic Who puts the Doctor in in some situations where he has a gun, but he usually hands it over to the next human companion instead of using it. And of course when the Doctor does take up a gun in New Who, as in Dalek or The Doctor's Daughter, it's an important character point, as is him ultimately either being stopped or not going through with it.) It's one of the unwritten show rules (i.e. no gun-totting Doctor is, I mean - he can kill, but not via a gun). So when there are situations where a plot point requires gun use, another character gets to do it. Jack is anything but unique in that regard (the Brigadier and Ace being especially memorable cases in point.)

On a Watsonian level, on the other hand, the Doctor as a character doesn't use Jack as a hit man. In Utopia he stops Jack from shooting at the FutureKind. (Which leads to the interesting exchange later when the Doctor doesn't stop the guards from shooting, Jack points this out to him and the Doctor replies "They aren't my responsibility".) In Sound of Drums he stops Jack from shooting at the Master, which I submit is about Jack as well as about the Master. (Whom at this point he has no reason to believe wouldn't just regenerate.) I can't think of a situation where the Doctor, as opposed to the show, tells Jack to shoot, and of several where he prevents him from doing just that.

Edited 2009-04-29 09:07 (UTC)

I love your brain! I have nothing to add really, since I agree very much with what you're saying.

*goes back to writing fic, since meta is clearly beyond me*

iz tired, depressed and hungry but will try to write something sounding a bit coherent:
Jack=John but rehabilitated.

Maybe he was even worse at some point, could be possible. And then something happened to make him change, time with the doctor, time stuck on earth with Torchwood.
Jack grew up, he changed while John is still stuck in his ways.
Though I do not think that John is hopeless, there was a glimmer of something in there :)

iz tired, depressed and hungry but will try to write something sounding a bit coherent
has just woken up and brain is not working yet... initial response to comment: OMG ICON! *flail*

Jack=John but rehabilitated.
Oh, excellent way of putting it. Yes, I could see that.

Though I do not think that John is hopeless, there was a glimmer of something in there :)
I think he could be a bit like Spike - as in, doing the right thing for the sake of someone else even though he doesn't quite 'get it'.

Thank you for commenting - I hope you feel better soon!

Next morning: is kinda awake needs caffeine stat!

I know the feeling! :)

I was link surfing and stumbled in on these meta conversations, hope you don't mind me hijacking your comment area to babble :P

Yes, Jack clearly knows every dirty trick in the book, but he uses them for a reason. and
So - is Jack worse than John? It’s a tricky question, but I think Jack certainly has the *potential*

I agree that Jack has the potential for being worse than John, in the sense that, if he has an innate sense of morals, he has more to overcome when inflicting violence - Sort of the theory of how female militants may be more likely to shoot than their male counterparts due to having to overcome _more_ social conditioning, Jack would have to overcome his own.... goodness? As a result, he may actually show a much heavier hand than is strictly necessary. Though, one also has to take into account:

a) 51st century norms - which I wouldn't doubt can be just as flash or harsh as the 21st century, but with a certain sort of in your face pizzaz

b) Depending in the situation, what is considered justifiable from a military stand point? If you're going to use force, it is possible that being _soft_ about it can lead to worse casualties in the long run, rather than going in hard with all your guns blazing

So yes, I agree. Jack needs to have a reason, if only to justify the things he does to himself. I don't necessarily think that the reason has to be an entirely _good_ one, so long as it falls under _his_ definition of what is good and he feels the outcome is beneficial to himself as well as those that fall under his... purview. And perhaps those few he actually looks up to too; like the Doctor. He's become more and more of a better person as time went on, but I don't believe he's completely left all of that behind in 'present day'.

And honestly, would he feel that the ends justify the means when it comes to John? I still don't have the best grip on exactly what Jack thinks of him and sometimes, when someone comes with a heck of a lot of emotional baggage, it's all too easy to other them into something easy to inflict things on.

Well, to summarize, and tie this to

antelope_writes's meta, I guess - I think that it's entirely possible Jack was worse than John at some point in time. Especially if he thought he was justified in being so. And that, imo, is something worth being terrified about.

ETA:

Easy to inflict on, esp with John being. Well. Murderous and sociopathic and without any real empathy towards most beings outside of his few exceptions.

and I'm speaking of Old Jack, not necessarily Present Jack.

Easy to inflict on, esp with John being. Well. Murderous and sociopathic and without any real empathy towards most beings outside of his few exceptions.
*nods* There's an interesting dynamic between them - not unlike S6 Buffy/Spike - because John clearly *expects* Jack to come with him.

Re. what Jack thinks of John, then I like the KKBB entry in the Captain's Blog.

(As for John's view, then this fic in definitely the best one I've ever read.)

hope you don't mind me hijacking your comment area to babble :P
Not at all! The more, the merrier! :)

I agree that Jack has the potential for being worse than John, in the sense that, if he has an innate sense of morals, he has more to overcome when inflicting violence
It is actually a slightly different point than the one put forth in the original post, but when I began thinking things through I realised that the two of them couldn't be judged in the same way... hence all the waffling.

Jack needs to have a reason, if only to justify the things he does to himself. I don't necessarily think that the reason has to be an entirely _good_ one, so long as it falls under _his_ definition of what is good and he feels the outcome is beneficial to himself as well as those that fall under his... purview.
That's a very good summary.

He's become more and more of a better person as time went on, but I don't believe he's completely left all of that behind in 'present day'.
Which ties in with your point b and reminds me of the argument between Harriet Jones and the Doctor after she orders the Sycorax' ship shot down. Jack, I think, would have done the same as her. (He is Torchwood after all, Earth & humanity are his priority.) John would have let them go, since he wouldn't have cared...

I think that it's entirely possible Jack was worse than John at some point in time. Especially if he thought he was justified in being so. And that, imo, is something worth being terrified about.
*nods*

It is actually a slightly different point than the one put forth in the original post, but when I began thinking things through I realized that the two of them couldn't be judged in the same way... hence all the waffling.

True, *g* I was sort of spinning about and trying to get them to fit together. The problem is that I almost put John on a different measurement scale since I believe that he _honestly_ doesn't come equipped with certain basic morals. Hence him being a sociopath and yes, he's dangerous because he'll do something horrible and not think twice about it. But - to pull from your Buffy/Spike analogy (of which I always felt sad for Spike who was trying, he really was, but he was incapable of getting it. And being the resident punching bag wasn't helping him figure out what he was missing). I almost feel like it's a handicap that needs special tools and things to deal with - in John's case, perhaps a set of irons or a straight jacket and a lot of quality time with someone who knows what they're doing - that person NOT being Jack. Who, unlike John, could almost be called a normal human being. Mostly sane, at least.

Is this what you meant by them being judged in the same way?

Still at the same time, I also feel like.... wouldn't that just be apologetics? Explaining away John's badness because _he can't help himself_. He seems to understand at least theoretically what other people's concepts of 'good morals' are, which argues that he _can_ chose to do good, even if - to quote Harmony in Angel - he has to work a lot harder at it. He just doesn't have much reason to make the effort, and his most notable attempt lead in many deaths and lots of destruction. Fail! Looked in that light, it's clear that John is worse than Jack is.

It's something I'm kinda torn about.

Also I second that later response about Jack possibly learning his torture work from old Torchwood. I don't know, though. Little is actually known about Jack in the past, and I get the feeling that if they have no problems with JOHN in their employ, multiple rehabs notwithstanding, Jack may have some unseen... depth. Someway, somehow.

Is this what you meant by them being judged in the same way?
Yes! Yes, exactly.

Still at the same time, I also feel like.... wouldn't that just be apologetics?
And that's where it all gets horribly complex. I like that you brought up Harmony, since she's probably a better example than Spike in many ways, even though she is a lot more childish than John. (I honestly don't know who's worse - it depends on the way you measure them, which will always be skewed because they can't be measured with the same scales.)

I don't know, though. Little is actually known about Jack in the past, and I get the feeling that if they have no problems with JOHN in their employ, multiple rehabs notwithstanding, Jack may have some unseen... depth. Someway, somehow.
I think John is fairly a-typical, but then obviously a handy tool. Given that he was partnered with Jack, since Jack was the only one who could control him, they might have been used for 'dirty jobs' - hence Jack's unease with having the other one around, and maybe also the two missing years? 'TIS ALL A MYSTERY!

oops, and that was me replying. Forgot to sign in.

It happens. I replied, btw - lots of interesting thoughts!

Followed this over from the body language meta...

Agree with you on most of this, and I'm really glad to see that you started it off with "The Doctor Dances". So many people use that ep to go on about how much of a bad guy Jack used to be, and I just don't see it. In addition to the two quotes you mentioned, the one that always catches my attention is when Jack and Rose are dancing. He says "I like to think of myself as a criminal" and Rose, the heroine and voice of truth in this ep, laughs and says something like "Yeah, I just bet you do". The clear implication, IMHO, is that we're supposed to accept Jack is more of a doofus than a hardened criminal. And considering that he just mistook Rose for a Time Agent despite the lack of leather on the wrists he was tying up a few minutes before and the rapidity with which he confesses his con game, it's a very easy implication to accept.

So yeah, he has the capacity to be very dangerous indeed, but there's a huge difference, in Jack's favor, between the ways he and John use that capacity, what they get out of it, and their innate tendencies to indulge in extreme tactics.

And honestly, I'm not at all convinced that the job that taught him torture was in the 51st and wasn't early Torchwood itself.

Agree with you on most of this, and I'm really glad to see that you started it off with "The Doctor Dances". So many people use that ep to go on about how much of a bad guy Jack used to be, and I just don't see it.
There are a few hints - the way he laughs about 'Volcano Day', his casual admittance of stealing his ship - but there's never any suggestion of something sinister behind this attitude. As you point out, his interactions with Rose make it fairly clear that it's mostly a game to him. He's playing the role of 'space pirate' (and it does suit him rather well), but once he begins telling the truth we discover that what he wants is his memories back, and that he's worried about what happened, what he did. There's also his line to the Doctor in PotW ("I was much better off as a coward"), which implies a lot of running away from responsibility, but not anything *bad*.

there's a huge difference, in Jack's favor, between the ways he and John use that capacity, what they get out of it, and their innate tendencies to indulge in extreme tactics.
*nods*

And honestly, I'm not at all convinced that the job that taught him torture was in the 51st and wasn't early Torchwood itself.
I'd not considered that before, but it's a very plausible idea. I like it.

Yeah, "grand theft spaceship" obviously is pretty serious, but it's not quite the same thing as torture and murder, especially given the implication that he left the owner sated in bed and not in any sort of dangerous situation (and presumably with resources of her own, if she owned the ship in the first place).

I'm not quite sure what you mean about Volcano Day; I always took that comment as pure braggadocio on his part. (It would actually be a pretty poor place to run a con, after all -- his marks are almost as likely to know about the volcano as he is and he couldn't show up there more than once without crossing his own timeline.)

That coward line always confuses me, because up to that point, we haven't really seen him acting like a coward. It seems to come out of nowhere, and I can only assume it refers to some late-night TARDIS conversation that we'd kill to have happened on-screen.

Yeah, "grand theft spaceship" obviously is pretty serious, but it's not quite the same thing as torture and murder
Exactly. And who knows - he might have taken it back at some point (time travel is a handy thing! *g*)

I'm not quite sure what you mean about Volcano Day
Mostly just that it's in rather bad taste to joke about thousands of people dying. (And you're right, it does seem a rather useless place for a scam.)

That coward line always confuses me, because up to that point, we haven't really seen him acting like a coward.
He might be thinking along the lines of 'looking after Number 1' Vs. self-sacrifice for the greater good. (It confuses me too. There should be fic.)

he might have taken it back at some point (time travel is a handy thing! *g*)

Actually, I figure that should have been his Plan C for being stuck in the forties with Tosh -- Plan B would have been getting forties!Torchwood to freeze them, but if that didn't work for some reason, just wait a month or so then head for London. Wait 'til his younger self is out trying to pull flyboys, then borrow the Chula ship for a quick trip home, program it to return on autopilot, and younger!Jack would never know the difference.

(It confuses me too. There should be fic.)

There should. Unfortunately, I'm just a critic and not a writer. :-)

Edited 2009-05-01 22:25 (UTC)

Actually, I figure that should have been his Plan C for being stuck in the forties with Tosh
That's ingenius! I love it. :)

There should. Unfortunately, I'm just a critic and not a writer. :-)
I *am* a writer, but I can't really think how it'd work. But I was thinking that maybe it could also be the writers' way of tying it into the Doctor's dilemma later on?

EMPEROR DALEK: I want to see you become like me. Hail the Doctor, the Great Exterminator!
THE DOCTOR (angry, placing his hands on the lever): I'll do it!
EMPEROR DALEK: Then prove yourself, Doctor. What are you - coward or killer?
THE DOCTOR: Coward. Any day.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

TW Meta: Is Jack worse than John?

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

icon

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject