Secondhand bitchiness...

[elisi]

Yesterday beer_good_foamy stole my head (or something like) and wrote a post about S8 Dawn that had me nodding along like one of the Churchill dogs, going 'Oh yes!' as I read.

So, I pimp.

Go read. Agree. Disagree. And be reminded why Dawn was a great character. :)

ETA: Having discussed Dawn at some length in beer_good_foamy's LJ, I don't think it's the giant-ness that's the problem per se. I don't mind waiting for reveals if I have to, I don't mind the Kenny thing etc. What I mind is that that is all she is - a giant problem. Her entire story in s8 so far centers around some guy she slept with... and that's actually a little demeaning, now I think about it.

And just because she's a giant shouldn't stop her helping out... she's still smart and knowledgeable and should be a great asset to Buffy, since clearly there is no resident Watcher at the castle. However there is no sign that she's doing anything apart from being huge - and that is a sad waste of a character.


PS. I *will* get round to answering comments. Sooner or later. Probably later.

Comments

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

Well, she stepped on Amy. lol

I don't think we've seen enough scenes of Dawn yet. I think she's busy moping about being a giant, leaving college, not living like a normal girl... all valid reasons for moping. But when things get serious, she's there to lend a hand: stepping on Amy.

Poor Dawn can't do research because books are too small for her to read, but when a fight occurs, she would probably help, like she had done with Amy and the living dead.

I hope she shrinks soon though. I like my Dawn normal-sized, but I'm enjoying other things too much to get annoyed about Dawn. I'm also really pleased for my new found Faith interest, I never cared about Faith before, but No Future For You opened doors for Faith interest that I never thought I'd have.

[elisi]

Well, she stepped on Amy. lol
True. But that's not a lot in 2 months... (2 months for *her*!)

Poor Dawn can't do research because books are too small for her to read
Well they could have shown her the Twilight symbol - maybe she could have helped work it out?

I'm also really pleased for my new found Faith interest, I never cared about Faith before, but No Future For You opened doors for Faith interest that I never thought I'd have.
Well that's good. :)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Poor Dawn can't do research because books are too small for her to read,

With all the high-tech stuff the Slayer organization has, surely they could shell out $100 on a good old-fashioned overhead projector for her and blow the pages up on a movie screen? :-)

Thanks for the rec, elisi!

[elisi]

surely they could shell out $100 on a good old-fashioned overhead projector for her and blow the pages up on a movie screen? :-)
Nice and easy. :)

And how could I *not* rec?

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

With all the high-tech stuff the Slayer organization has, surely they could shell out $100 on a good old-fashioned overhead projector for her and blow the pages up on a movie screen? :-)

If they had done that, it will be another thing you guys would find negative, won't it? *winks*

[elisi]

Probably not! I like it when people are clever. :)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

If all she wanted to read was Cosmopolitan, then sure. If the first book she ordered was "How To De-Embiggen Giants" (possibly in a dead language) so she could actually start solving her own issues since no one else seems to, then not so much.

[elisi]

Amen. I think it's her childish attitude that got to me straight from the start - she's how old in s8? 18? Behaving like a pouty 14 y.o. is not on - esp since she's very bright and quite possibly *could* solve her own problem. That secret she's keeping better be pretty amazing!

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Have you guys ever done research? It doesn’t just involve ordering and reading one book it means finding the book or rather finding the book that finds you the book, scanning through and translating pages on the fly, making notes, going back to the bits you read before to check that they say what you thought they said. It’s time consuming hard work, the weather /insect life in Scotland is hardly conducive and Dawn’s pretty much in the position of a blind person having to get people to transpose everything into instant Braille for her before she can start. It's hard being large, she's got enough to deal with just finding enough to eat and not freeze/be bitten to death.

Besides which the whole point of Potential wasn’t that Dawn was a crappy Slayer but a brilliant Watcher, it was that she, like Xander, was one of the people without any natural talent but prepared to muck in and do what she could anyway. She’s not that good at research. In S7 she had the advantage of being the only one prepared to do any but she wasted time translating spells from the Turkish when an English version was available and her main contribution towards getting Buffy back inGiD was to goad Willow and Anya into doing the work. It looks like Buffy’s new Slayer organisation includes people who can not only slay better than Dawn but do magic and, most likely, recon better as well. No wonder she’s feeling useless.

[elisi]

Oh I'm not saying it would be *easy* - I'm saying that I don't understand why she's not doing anything. I'm presuming that the reveal will explain this.

But we know that she is very bright - it's one of the first things we learn about her in 'Real Me':

"Willow's the awesomest person. She's the only one I know who likes school as much as me."

And anyone who can teach themselves ancient Sumerian *and* translate Turkish, is pretty brilliant in my book. Esp when they're only 16!

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Liking school is a very different thing from being any good at it and she didn't teach herself ancient Sumerian (which must be a much easier language in the Buffyverse than here as Giles can speak it) she translated the single phrase "you can't just watch, you have to see" then gave up. I could use a dictionary just fine when I was 16 and that was before googlefish existed but being good at research means more thn just being able to put in the hours to do essentially mechanical translation it means having the higher order skills to identify the right question and find the quickest way to the answer.

[elisi]

What she translated - straight off the page - was this:

First, there is the Earth.
Then, there came the demons.
After demons, there came men.
Men found a girl.
And the men took the girl to fight the demon—all demons. They—they chained her to the Earth. And then—and I—I can't read this. Something about darkness.

Then it turned into English. *I* think that's pretty impressive.

ETA: What's with this?

which must be a much easier language in the Buffyverse than here as Giles can speak it
Giles is a qualified Watcher, of course he can speak lots of ancient dead languages.

[mikeygs.livejournal.com]

You're obviously confusing TV!Dawn with Comic!Dawn. Therein lies your mistake. ;)

[elisi]

This is actually a continuation of a discussion from this post. (Spoilers for 'season 8' obviously). We appear to have very different view on who Dawn is, and how much fun she is as a giant. (Although, as I have said, it's nice that *some* people enjoy the story!)

ETA: You might enjoy this! *g*

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I don't think she's meant to be translating word for word, all she that says is descriptive of the imagery given by the shadowcasters - like they way kids can read storybooks by using the illustrations to help them before they can read fluently. Her fancy translation skills stop exactly at the point of the last 'picture' when the text becomes more abstract. Which is not say she's not smart to do that but she's not had to have learnt Sumerian to achieve it.

Sumerian is not only a dead language it has no known relative and a limited number of writings for lingusits to work from. Its reconstruction is still very incomplete both grammar and vocabulary are still only parially understood so although it's possible to come up with translations of some of the texts they're still much argued over and I think any scholar would claim to know enough to speak it even (if the speaker weren't bothered about it sounding like it did when last spoken).

You might enjoy annakovsky's story "Umad learns Sumerian" (http://annakovsky.livejournal.com/9587.html#cutid1), the writer was a student doing ancient languages so it's quite a realistic take on the linguistic aspects as well as a wonderful Dawn character piece.

[elisi]

Which is not say she's not smart to do that but she's not had to have learnt Sumerian to achieve it.
She would have to know *some* Sumerian - the basics at least. And I was actually thinking of that very fic you pointed out, knowing nothing about Sumerian myself.

I think my point is that Dawn is very much a do-er - and a bright one at that - so her inactivity as concerns her gigantism puzzles me. Unless she really *wants* to be a giant, so Buffy will have to notice her, but then we're back to square one.

Maybe we should stop worrying about a fictional character? I have fic to write... ;)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

I think my point is that Dawn is very much a do-er - and a bright one at that - so her inactivity as concerns her gigantism puzzles me.

Just one more kinda snarky thought? Can I? Please? *bambi eyes*

1. You are Dawn Summers. You are 14 years old. One day, you overhear the grownups talking and draw the conclusion that there is something not normal about you. Your reaction is to...?
a) confront them and demand an answer;
b) if that fails, sneak out to break into the Magic Box and research the matter your damn self;
c) sit around doing absolutely nothing, confident that they will tell you in their own good time.

2. You are Dawn Summers. You are 15 years old. One day, the closest thing you currently have to a mother is shot dead and her partner goes on a rampage to track down and kill her murderer. Your reaction, once the shock wears off, is to...?
a) hope that said partner gets him, and viciously proclaim that you'd gladly do it yourself if at all possible;
b) try to track said partner down, no matter how dangerous it may be;
c) sit around watching videos until the whole thing blows over.

3. You are Dawn Summers. You are 16 years old. One day, your anchovy-eating is interrupted by what appears to be your dead mother and a very pissed-off poltergeist. You can't reach your sister over the phone. Your reaction is to...?
a) refuse to leave the house, try to talk to your mother;
b) if she's not allowed to answer, get a spell book and all the magic ingredients you can find, perform exorcism yourself no matter how scary or painful;
c) run away and find someone better suited to handle this.

If you've answered c) to all questions, then congratulations: you're Comic!Dawn. Don't worry, the others will find a way to get you back to normal size any month now. Enjoy your haggis.

[elisi]

Ooooh! Nasty! But true!

(And bambi eyes always work - do they look like Calvin's?) (Presuming that you are familiar with Calvin and Hobbes)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Am *I* familiar with Calvin & Hobbes? I'm pretty sure I've based my entire life's philosophy on them. :-D

[elisi]

I'm pretty sure I've based my entire life's philosophy on them. :-D
Good choice! (But not even the bambi eyes will get you a flame thrower. Just in case you wanted to try...)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

[elisi]

::channels Calvin's mom, points to icon::

[elisi]

Actually - I've worked it out. As in what's my problem with the Dawn-story. It's the fact that (so far at least) it seems wholly unconnected to the larger plot. Of course it might turn out that Kenny is General Voll's son or something and tie in beautifully (like the Faith-arc is doing).

Take Dawn away from s8, and would anything be different (except Amy wouldn't be trodden on)?

(No need to reply to this btw. I'll just wait and see what happens once we get her story.)

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Not replying as such :-) Just pointing out that co-incidently I've just posted some thoughts on how Dawn's predicament fits into the story as a whole on my journal.

[kitmarlowescot2.livejournal.com]

Elisi, Lynch answered, he has never heard of the Dragonriders of Pern. But their might be a possibility of Spike and Connor bonding. And Angel sarcastically approving of it, which means no. So Connor and Spike might actually bug Angel to death.

[elisi]

So Connor and Spike might actually bug Angel to death.
I know! I'm so, so happy! Nevermind the dragon-bit, Spike/Connor bonding is far better! :)

(*So* many thing I wish we had seen coming together! Yay!)