More squee! And a Spuffy thought!

[elisi]

Well, Christmas has obviously come early, because yesterday someone gifted me with more icon-space! Thank you so much anonymous benefactor! LJ-fairy? Christmas-fairy? Or... ::looks suspiciously at Anna and her magic wand::

Today we went to Impish Girl's pre-school/nursery to see their nativity play! Anyone who hasn't seen 25 3-year olds doing this hasn't lived! They were all just so cute!! And afterwards there was tea and cakes, and because about half the children are asian, and parent's brought the refreshments, I had Christmas cake and onion bhajis (sorry about spelling).

But - I also have a little thought to share:



Spuffy Thought

Now I doubt I'm the first one to notice this, but I felt like sharing anyway! We all know that heartbreaking moment:

Buffy: "I love you."
Spike: "No you don't."

I'm one of those who think that yes she meant it and yes he believed her. (See this post by the_royal_anna and this FitB by Kimi: The Way It Works - set just post-Chosen).

But that's not what I'm going to talk about. Because I discovered that there was a precedent for 'I love you' / 'No you don't'! And also that in this scene the denial doesn't mean disbelief. Let me show you - this is from the alley scene in 'Dead Things:

Spike: "You're not going in there."
Buffy: "I have to do this. Just let me go."
Spike: "I can't. I love you."
Buffy: "No, you don't."
Spike: "You think I haven't tried not to?"
Buffy hauls off and punches him in the face. Spike goes flying back into a couple of garbage cans, against the wall of the next building.
Buffy: "Try harder."

Buffy's denial is most certainly an instruction - a command even. And how interesting that this exchange comes at one of their lowest points and the mirror scene at their highest! I just liked the symmetry. Now go discuss! ;-)

Comments

[lillianmorgan.livejournal.com]

Yay for icon space - now you have so much choice you'll go slightly mad... :)
*hugs you for this post* Denial does not mean disbelief.
Besides there's always good fanfic to reassure us of this.... *g*

[elisi]

I'm adding to my icons very slowly - I'll try to get a really good selection and not just go slightly mad... hee! ;-)

Although there are some I uploaded straight away! Such as this gorgeous one by kathyh!

And of course denial doesn't mean disbelief! Silly ducks!

[sevedra.livejournal.com]

you are brilliantly observant, as always.
i relly liked reading those links, too. i'd have never seen them otherwise. thanks so much!

[elisi]

Thanks for the compliments! *blushes*

And you mean you've never read the_royal_anna's essays? Go do so now! They're all in her memories! Bestest, loveliest essays ever!

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I'm in the 'she meant it, but he didn't (or didn't dare to) believe it' camp myself.

[elisi]

Well, life would be boring if we all agreed, wouldn't it! (And I adore this icon! I'll never be able to let go of the extra icon-space now... and having an LJ was supposed to be a free hobby!)

[fishsanwitt]

I hadn't ever thought of that. Thank you :)

[elisi]

I forget when I noticed, but it felt like a cartoon-light bulb moment! Heh.

[fishsanwitt]

And I just cried all over Kimi's story.

[elisi]

Oh, me too! To me that story is canon! I have a little printout that I keep in my bedside cabinet!

(Yes I'm sad, but it's so perfect!)

[paratti.livejournal.com]

If he believed a word of what she said (even if she did mean it, in her way, if it was real to her, as far as she's capable of loving anyone that's not her or an extension of her) he'd have gone off to her when he could. He didn;t. Ergo he didn;t believe her and was telling the truth as his last act (or so he thought) as a truth teller.

I didn't believe her either, or there would have been at least a slivver of grief at his death - as there would be from any half decent human being.

[paratti.livejournal.com]

THere's additional symmetry between DT adn Chosen there too. In DT he loves her adn she beats him to a pulp and leaves him to die. In Chosen she tears his heart out with a spoon by jumping Angel and showing no remorse, then she gives him the amulet she and Angel won't risk wearing themselves and which kills him, as she leaves him there to die.

No wonder he decided against going back for more.

[elisi]

This is a reply to both comments - I see where you're coming from, but personally I just happen to disagree. See this thread from my Intervention essay which says most of what I think about those last moments (or rather, why Buffy smiled).

And I think that giving Spike the amulet was the biggest compliment she could have given him - can you imagine if she'd brought Angel home: "Well everybody, the Champion is here!" That would have been worse I think.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

When I watch the “Chosen” I cannot but believe that Spike believed that Buffy loved him. It is just at that moment there was nothing hidden between them. And I am always easily persuaded by the argument on htat side. So, “no. you don’t” as a request works well for me.

But there is more to it, It recently occurred to me: Spike was seeing his and Buffy’s story – sometimes – as the “Gone with the wind” remix (remember Tabula Rasa?), so the irony of the situation was not lost on him either.

And the next year, having found himself undead again his insecurities and doubts, that didn’t matter at that moment came back with the vengeance…

[elisi]

Oh, interesting thoughts! The 'Gone with the Wind' comparison is v. good! And I think there might be a thousand reasons why he didn't go back to Buffy, but maybe he just wanted to see if he could get that Shanshu!

[kathyh]

Fascinating observation. You are gradually persuading me to seeing the "No, you don't" as an instruction *g*.

The nativity play sounds delightful, and the Christmas cake and onion bhajis sounds...interesting.

[elisi]

You are gradually persuading me to seeing the "No, you don't" as an instruction

Then my work here is done! ::sweeps out::

(Hee!)

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

Very interesting point, Elizabeth!

I always thought that he believed her - Buffy's face is so poignant , so true to her words , and we all know that she doesn't talk about her feelings lightly -but it certainly was an instruction , too.
For she has to go on with her life , it is the gift he's giving her.
Spike's love for Buffy is generous , and he thinks of her beyond anything else.

According to me he knew he was going to die fighting this last battle , and he wouldn't have acted differently , no matter what.

[elisi]

For she has to go on with her life , it is the gift he's giving her.

Definitely!

he knew he was going to die fighting this last battle

Yes - and I think there was a lot of 'The Gift' in there too - "Always knew I'd go down fighting". He was always ready to die for her! I think he saw that almost as his purpose.

[mikeygs.livejournal.com]

I've never made that correlation before, but it works for me! I'm rather unsure whether or not Spike believed her; sometimes I think he did and others I don't. But I can't just can't conceive that he wouldn't of have believed that she cared about him and would've wanted to know he was back.

You know, I didn't try to get back into the on-line fandom until after the series was over, but when I did, I was shocked to find that there were people who didn't believe she loved him. It was just so obvious to me, especially in the last few eps.

The thing is if you look at any person, fictional or not, from extremely cynical viewpoint, you're going to find them distasteful. This holds true for Buffy, Giles, Angel, Xander, Willow, as well as Spike. That's what is both wonderful and frustrating about visual storytelling: no matter how good the actor is, you're not privy to the thoughts of the character because they're not the one who put them there. It leads to scintillating discussions and rather bitter arguments. It's kind of exhausting, really.

I don't know where I was going with that. :)

[elisi]

Thanks for such an interesting comment! :)

Hmm, of course staying on with Angel was a plot point from the series' point of view in that they wanted the character on the show. But I think that maybe Spike just didn't want to interfere in her new life - personally I think that it was very sensible for him to stay and try to work out who he was first... actually I have a mini essay dealing with this that maybe I should blow the dust off and post sometime...

It was just so obvious to me, especially in the last few eps.

Me too! The way she always turns to him first - if you look it's everywhere.

I think a major problem with a story as detailed as Buffy is that everyone has their own idea of how it should go (see fanfiction), so when they don't get that they're disappointed. And I keep as far away from nasty arguments as I can - I didn't know about (online) fandom until after Chosen, so I missed most of the viciousness thankfully.

Well, must go! :)

[sylva-rerum.livejournal.com]

Well, Christmas has obviously come early, because yesterday someone gifted me with more icon-space!

Heh. I still can't get over what a bizarre coincidence that was. But yay for more icon space! You'll never want to go back to fewer slots now. I know I sure don't. :)

I keep going back and forth on whether I think Spike believed Buffy's 'I love you' or not. On the one hand, he was quite anxious to see her again early on in Angel Season 5, and he probably wouldn't have felt that way if he thought she didn't care about him or wouldn't be happy to see him. But then, on the other, if he did believe her then why didn't he say something in 'Destiny' when Angel taunted him about how Buffy could never love him because he wasn't Angel?

The 'No you don't' as a command idea does make sense, though. After all, he definitely wanted Buffy out of the cavern so she could continue living. And maybe his doubts were beginning to creep in by the time 'Destiny' rolled around. It's obvious that he was suffering from a mild case of post-resurrection syndrome, having been brought back against his will and no longer sure of anything anymore. Nothing as severe as Buffy's case was, but it's still there. ... Hunh.... there's another parallel I just thought of. Both of them couldn't feel anything when they came back, although for Buffy it was emotions while Spike couldn't feel anything physically due to being a ghost. Not that that really has anything to do with anything, but I still think it's neat. I swear those two have more parallels between them than any two other characters I've ever seen.

Ack! I've gone on for far too long. Time to go. I was able to come home for lunch today, but now it's time to get back to work.

[elisi]

You'll never want to go back to fewer slots now. I know I sure don't. :)

I know! And as I said to bogwitch this LJ thing was supposed to be my cheap way to join in fandom...

And about your points why Spike didn't go to Buffy or tell Angel - it's all very complicated. I have an essay that sort of deals with why Spike stayed in LA (which I'll have to sort out now, sigh). And as for telling Angel - I think that Spike just wanted to keep it to himself. I mean how do you explain Spuffy? ("You don't know what we had!")

And oh - all the rest of your thoughts are so interesting and I don't really have time to think properly now...

I swear those two have more parallels between them than any two other characters I've ever seen.

Such a good point - how's your s7 thing coming along?

[the-royal-anna.livejournal.com]

Oh! What a wonderful, cunning little point that is. ::sigh:: And what a gorgeous, rich show it was! These little things seem to crop up, and you're sure nobody put them there on purpose exactly, but it feels like some kind of magic behind it all knew just what it was doing. :) Thank you so much for pointing that one out! It's a lovely, succinct illustration.

And hee...that LJ fairy, she gets around. :)

[elisi]

I'm 99% sure that this point was in some e-mail I wrote you ages ago, but if I'm able to impress you twice, that works fine too! :)

And I was thinking exactly what you wrote - Joss was so very determined to use that exact wording... did he intentionally refer back to this scene?

And hee...that LJ fairy, she gets around. :)

Does that mean that i wasn't you? 'Cause I'm all confused! (And see - hot christmas icon!)

[danceswithwords.livejournal.com]

That's some really neat parallelism. I'm glad you pointed it out.

I go back and forth and whether or not Spike actually believed her; I think I'm going to save forming a definitive opinion til I rewatch S7 after having rewatched the entire rest of the series. But to some extent, I don't think it really mattered, because Spike had found his purpose and his absolution at that moment, and everything else was just extra helpings.

Whether or not he believed her, though, I think at that last moment they understood each other as well as they ever had, and that says a lot about how far they'd come from "Dead Things."

[elisi]

But to some extent, I don't think it really mattered, because Spike had found his purpose and his absolution at that moment, and everything else was just extra helpings.

So glad you pointed that out! Those are my sentiments too!

how far they'd come from "Dead Things."

Incredible, isn't it?

[superplin.livejournal.com]

Have you read this conversation, by any chance? We had a blast doing that exercise, and a couple of us came to similar conclusions as you did.

[elisi]

No I haven't - will check it out asap! Thank you for pointing it out! :)