Reviews of s8 issue 4.

[elisi]

Realised that for some reason I forgot to put these up. This time I've ordered them in groups:

I've got a theory...
Excellent summary and analysis by moscow_watcher.

Canon-y goodness yay!

Indepth review by stormwreath

Review and meta by aycheb

*shrug* (a mixed bag...)

Review by beer_good_foamy

Review by yourlibrarian

Review by confusedkayt

Review by shapinglight

Review/rant by ruuger

wtf?

Review by sp23


Um... thedeadlyhook? molly_may? Any thoughts at all? Or are you just paralysed with not caring anymore?


But I have a theory of my own... Because lets face it, Buffy looks *nothing* like she did on the show (who is this round-faced, button-nosed young woman people keep addressing as Buffy?). So, I think the real Buffy (and the real Dawn) are in Rome. This Buffy (and Dawn) are from a parallel universe, where incidents not entirely unlike those in 'our verse' took place, but with the odd differences of course [insert ret-cons]. Oh and Willow mindwiped everyone so they *think* this is the real Buffy. :)

*has brainwave*

When they brought the other Buffy and Dawn through, parallel!Amy and parallel!Warren hitched a ride. That, I think, explains everything! My theory is neat! *g*

Comments

[shapinglight]

Your theory works for me.

[elisi]

I think it explains everything. Well most things...

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

On a completely unrelated topic, can I ask you how you put a link to a post or a picture with just writing the word ? For example you write : "review" by confusedkayt and by clicking on 'review' we are lead to the post . I'm only able to do something like this if I want to link :http://confusedkayt.livejournal.com/47899.html

Help, pretty please?

[elisi]

Oooh that is quite simple:

You write

{a href="http://www.examplewebpage.com"}Word here{/a}

But with < > instead of { }! :)

*feels clever*

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Oh, I have another theory. It's Giles experiencing his own version of Normal Again.

Because this is the worst Giles' nightmare.

His Slayer has turned into a horny teenager/damsel in distress/enemy of the civilization.

He's exiled somewhere where he can't help her.

He has shadowy dealings with demons.

Plus, Buffy's dreamspace has a cube with Beljoxa's eye. Buffy has never seen it, it's part of Giles' dreamspace.

[elisi]

Because this is the worst Giles' nightmare.
Oh that is *brilliant*! ::is impressed::

Also I'm sorry I never commented on your post - 'tis most excellent. I especially enjoyed the summary. :)

[frenchani.livejournal.com]

Plus Ethan his only true old love is killed!

I'm right with you, this is Giles' worst nightmare.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

I'll buy that. After all, parallel universes are commonplace in comics (just ask any Superman reader how Superman could possibly have fought in WW2 and still be young in the 1980s).

Now, your challenge, should you choose to accept it, will be to write or at least outline the events of the parallel universe that led us up to s8. It's a bit like every "what happened between Welcome To The Hellmouth and The Wish in the wishverse" fic, only of course more subtle...

[elisi]

parallel universes are commonplace in comics
And Doctor Who! :)

Now, your challenge, should you choose to accept it
Ha! Nope, not gonna happen, sorry. *goes back to working on Asylum ficlets*

Good idea though... :)

[ruuger]

Count me in with the folks paralysed with not caring.

I've been meaning to write something about the issue, but I've already ranted about the retcons in other people's journals and the rest of my reaction is pretty much covered by "What?" and so my review would probably just end up as my thesis on the subject "Comic book art matters, damn it, Or: why 'he didn't give Buffy big boobies' is not enough reason to call artwork good". :)

But I am working on my own theory/fic to explain the storyline so far, and hopefully I'll get it finished and posted before I go off for my vacation this weekend ;)

[elisi]

Count me in with the folks paralysed with not caring.
I wrote down my own thoughts, but they were short and I mostly did it to capture my own initial reaction.

Comic book art matters, damn it, Or: why 'he didn't give Buffy big boobies' is not enough reason to call artwork good".
I'd read it! *prays yet harder for Franco Urru to do s6*

I am working on my own theory/fic to explain the storyline so far
Looking forward to it! :)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Comic book art matters, damn it, Or: why 'he didn't give Buffy big boobies' is not enough reason to call artwork good

I've been thinking some about this since 8.04. To me, it's not just a matter of the characters being inconsistent in how they look, but WHAT is actually drawn. I'm starting to think that my not-able-to-care-whether-it's-canon-or-not is largely this: the first rule of storytelling is "show, don't tell". Good comics do this, by definition. s8, so far, has TOLD us far too much and not shown us enough. Which isn't to say I want to see Willow's head cut open, just... make me care. Give me something to hang an emotional response on, not just an intellectual one. The artwork doesn't work because, both in likeness and in action, it doesn't FEEL like BtVS the TV series, even IF the story could work on an intellectual level. These aren't our characters; they're 2-dimensional versions of them, at best. If all Joss wants to do is TELL us what happened, he might as well have given an extensive interview; he needs to make us FEEL it. In cinematographical terms - he needs not only a cameraman (Jeanty) but a director too.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Because lets face it, Buffy looks *nothing* like she did on the show (who is this round-faced, button-nosed young woman people keep addressing as Buffy?).

Well I guess Jeanty's drawing the character not the actor :-) Although SMG does have a round face at least compared to mine because I've tried those hair styles and they so do not work on me. Art seems to be a very personal thing. Jeanty's terrible at portraiture but while it's often difficult to be certain who a character is, the recent Faith cover is all kinds of wrong, he *is* good at showing what that character is feeling. His Buffy has the full range of expressions, pensive, puzzled, bitchy, bubbly, fearful, frustrated and seriously hardcore by the end. He also, possibly through Joss's direction does an excellent job of whatever the comics equivalent is of cinematography/editing, the composition of the pages is nicely varied, mixing close-ups and long shots and patterning the panels in interesting ways. This complexity may be part of why people are having trouble, it really helps (and is part of the fun) to have the instant rewind facility that you have with a book, I wouldn't like to read these online.

[elisi]

Well I guess Jeanty's drawing the character not the actor :-)
Now see Franco Urru does that in Asylum. His Spike is quite simply just Spike, in every way. Jeanty's work is a serious obstacle in my enjoyment of s8.

he *is* good at showing what that character is feeling.
Yes, but since I don't care about that character, it's rather irrelevant.

whatever the comics equivalent is of cinematography/editing, the composition of the pages is nicely varied, mixing close-ups and long shots and patterning the panels in interesting ways.
Hm. Interesting is a nice way of describing it, but I'm not sure it's *good*. And overall his work really can only be described as 'competent' - it certainly has good parts, but it's not... inventive. And he really can't do action. (Having just re-read issues 1 and 2 of 'Spike vs Dracula' I have to say that I've mellowed somewhat towards Jeanty. Sure his Buffy looks nothing like *my* Buffy, but at least she isn't ugly.)

[debris4spike]

Still haven't seen the comics - but think your theory is great ... Dread to think what parallel-universe- Debris4spike is up top now ... this one has just put the kettle on!

[elisi]

Still haven't seen the comics
So far? You're not missing out.

this one has just put the kettle on!
Tea is always good! :)

[molly_may]

Or are you just paralysed with not caring anymore?

Pretty much. I felt a tiny spark of interest at the end, in the scene between Buffy and the General, but when are we going to get the next part of that story? Months from now? I find the bite-sized storytelling format to be incredibly frustrating. And I found the whole consequence-free torture of Willow and her healing the wounded to be cheap and lazy. Bored now.

[elisi]

I find the bite-sized storytelling format to be incredibly frustrating.
Same here. s8 isn't a TV show, but that's how it's written, and that fact does it no favours!

Bored now.
Same here.

It's funny though, because I think Xander is now my favourite character. Oh and I feel rather happy with my WIP and am trying to think up interesting stuff for Willow! ;)

[mikeygs.livejournal.com]

Buffy looks *nothing* like she did on the show

You know, that really bugs me. This isn't X-Men or Spiderman where the movies and TV shows came out of the comics and were 'based ons' rather than actual canon. The actors there just need to fit a certain type. The Buffy comics are based on a TV show. Moreover, they're supposed to be a continuation of a TV show. Buffy has to resemble the actress, it's that simple. You wouldn't draw a Star Trek comic with Kirk and Spock not looking like Shatner and Nimoy, would you? Of course not. Same thing here.

[elisi]

You wouldn't draw a Star Trek comic with Kirk and Spock not looking like Shatner and Nimoy, would you? Of course not. Same thing here.
Indeed. Franco Urru does a marvellous job with Spike (other artists not so much - Spike vs Dracula is *painful* to read because the art is so awful), and I can't understand why they went with Jeanty for s8. *throws hands up*

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

You know, when I first heard of these comics I thought "Lots of focus on Buffy and Slayer.Jr, and Dawn will be there 'cause she's the sister, Willow and Faith will have major parts, and Joss' favorite Andrew will certainly be involved. I'd be happy to see a glimpse of Xander, because of Joss' lame and bullshit 'there are no more stories for Xander' excuse, and Giles will probably have a very small part."

I never thought Xander will have a good role. I guess that's one of the biggest reasons I'm attached to these comics. Since mid S3, Xander rarely had a good role other than supportive big brother, and now he's treated as an equal. I'm with you on the drawing, don't like it, and I wish this is shown on TV. To say the truth, I'm enjoying the Buffy, Xander, Leah, Satsu, Rowena and Renee parts. I hated everything that's Willow, and I love Willow, but I didn't like all the retcons surrounding her character.

The only bit about Willow I liked is that she's been away for a year, no one knows where she were, I loved Xander's angry "Where were you all that time?" also Buffy's curious if annoyed "Where have you been?" And it fits with the end of Chosen (relationship between Buffy and Willow) When Chosen ended, Buffy only seemed close to Dawn and Xander, and I've always pictured those three going like the beginning of S7, and when rumors about #1 having only Buffy, Xander and Dawn from the Scoobies, I was happy because my theory was true. Buffy didn't seem close with Willow and Giles anymore, it sucks and I want to see that mend, that's why I hated that Joss started the season a year and a half after Chosen. I want to see events develop gradually, because comments like "Willow is like a mom to me" can be fixed with a flashback and it'll be acceptable.

My point is, I'm enjoying the comics for the Buffy, Xander, Slayer.jr and Giles parts... and I really wish Dawn gets normal-sized. And I really hate that we have to wait a month for the new issue (the next one sounds interesting, and I gotta wait two months to read it) The slow base annoys me.

Sorry for the long rambling *blush*

[elisi]

Hey rambliness is fine! :)

And I've realised that Xander is my favourite character of s8! :) (It'd be Buffy, except she looks wrong) And I'm really liking Xander/Renee. He seems the only character who's grown and moved on along the lines we saw in S7. *pets Xander*

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

That's a good theory you've got there! But that's also what gets me about this story - given comic book logic and the toolkit you have to play with there (alternate universes, body switches, robots, demonic impersonation, Slayer dreams, etc.) the path JW has actually taken is one of the least (I'd say) interesting. As others have observed, he's undone character development that was there and just replaced it with something new without giving us any reason to care. I'm not interesting in Willow the Super Witch fixing everything, or Slayers fighting all of humanity. WTF up with that?

So yeah, I'm of not-caring-anymore school. The only wrinkles of the story I'd find interesting are ones I've either seen done better in other places, or have no confidence that they'll be followed up on convincingly, or both. And yes to the story-is-moving-too-slow complaint, big time - I spent some time reading through a lot of back issues in my collection of '80s comics this weekend, and it's not my imagination, comics did used to pack more plot per issue than they do now. A LOT more. It's just become a style thing, to hang comics off of a few cutesy lines of dialogue and spend forever getting to the point. But it doesn't have to be that way. What JW spent four issues on would've been one issue in the old days - two if you wanted a cliffhanger. Blah! [/old school comics fan rant]

[elisi]

That's a good theory you've got there!
Thanks! Ad it'll work so long as Joss doesn't go see what Rome!Buffy is up to. :)

the path JW has actually taken is one of the least (I'd say) interesting.
This is where having 'old' comic book fans is very handy. I'm reading yours and shapinglight's comments with interest.

he's undone character development that was there and just replaced it with something new without giving us any reason to care.
He's telling, not showing, and that's almost unforgivable. What *happened* to him? He's the master of showing. We know that he can show several different things in a single scene - where did that Joss go? And the Joss who wrote characters I love to distraction? *is sad*

comics did used to pack more plot per issue than they do now. A LOT more.
This is (almost) totally off subject but are you familiar with 'Elfquest'?

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

I like your theory! i didn't buy the latest episode (I'm out of town) but it makes sense to me!

[elisi]

Thanks! :)

[spacedoutlooney.livejournal.com]

Hee! I like your theory, though I'm not bothered by the artwork (except the eye color and hair color discontinuity). Since Joss says it's canon, I'm taking it as canon. For me to ignore it would be as bad as people who say that season 6 or 7 aren't canon. It's Joss's story and for better or worse, he's adding another section; it will either make the story as a whole worse, the same, or better, but I can't cherry pick.

I'm underwhelmed by the comic so far, but I have an incredible amount of patience and believe that I can truly understand something without seeing it in it's entirety a couple times. So I'll do an in depth analysis in about 2 years or so. ;D

[(Anonymous)]

AtS Spike is possibly not the best example to use. Based on the music, the framing of scenes, even the lighting I would have had no idea from the early S5 episodes that he might eventually come to question the self-justification he gave Robin Wood in LTMPM. “She was a Slayer I was a vampire,” end of story even though Robin was neither. Robin was the victim he never thought about.

True S8 has yet to have its Damage and I can understand the argument that Joss so loves Willow it never will. Based on the treatment of the proto-Willow Kitty Pryde in AXM, however, I have confidence. The come-uppance scene that fannish schadenfrede would delight in most is absent but the story still makes it abundantly clear that it sees Kitty’s flaws whether or not she confesses them.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

AtS Spike is possibly not the best example to use. Based on the music, the framing of scenes, even the lighting I would have had no idea from the early S5 episodes that he might eventually come to question the self-justification he gave Robin Wood in LTMPM. “She was a Slayer I was a vampire,” end of story even though Robin was neither. Robin was the victim he never thought about.

True S8 has yet to have its Damage and I can understand the argument that Joss so loves Willow it never will. Based on the treatment of the proto-Willow Kitty Pryde in AXM, however, I have confidence. The come-uppance scene that fannish schadenfrede would delight in most is absent but the story still makes it abundantly clear that it sees Kitty’s flaws whether or not she confesses them.

[elisi]

would have had no idea from the early S5 episodes that he might eventually come to question the self-justification he gave Robin Wood in LTMPM.
I'd point to 'Hellbound' as a good example, but then S5 was different. Imagine Dana turning up in ep 1...

the story still makes it abundantly clear that it sees Kitty’s flaws whether or not she confesses them.
I guess I'm just worried that the story is so condensed that the issues will not be examined as thoroughly as they deserve - which is where I'm coming from. I am not all convinced that this format can in any way satisfy what I'd like from this story. I loved Buffy because it always gave me so much more than I could ever wish for. Being left wanting is not something I like, but sadly it is something I rather expected. *sighs*

Let's just leave it until the Faith-arc has played out, OK? Since apparently the whole Scooby gang will turn up, if I heard right. So... meet you here in half a year's time? *g*