Why I’m looking forward to S6.

[elisi]

Now this isn’t really about the fact that S8 appears to be crack!fic, what with the ridiculous ret-cons, or that it’ll be Bryan Lynch (yay!) penning S6. OK, so it’s a bit of that, I admit I am shallow. (I’m also currently praying that Franco Urro will do the artwork. Because I really, really like his style!)

But - I’ve been thinking about endings. I’ll never accept the comics as canon, but pre-comics I think that if I could have chosen the ending to mess with, I’d have gone with ‘Chosen’. Because NFA is just so utterly, utterly perfect. But having to face Joss messing with *both*, I’ve been forced to re-examine my feelings, and I’m more upset about S8 - and more excited about S6. There are several reasons for this:

1) Finished vs cancelled.

There were never going to be more than 7 seasons of Buffy. They knew right from the start of S7 that it was the last one (the parade of Big Bads in ‘Lessons’ is a good indicator). It went out on a high, and Joss admitted to being totally out of ideas.

There *was* going to be a S6! They planned for it right from the beginning and had to scramble to tie up all the lose ends when the show was cancelled. And I’m curious to see what we might have got... [cries for lost show and curses the WB]

2) Ret-cons.

I’m sorry, but the ones in s8 (or at least that particular one) just make my head implode. It says ‘f*ck continuity’ and undermines a brilliant moment. (And no, I don’t think it’s worth it!)

Now s6... the obvious one would be to bring back Wes. I doubt this could be done without undermining his death - but! He was only killed because the show was cancelled - he was sacrificed on the altar of ‘make the audience bawl its eyes out’. In a world where the show wasn’t cancelled he would have survived - they had stuff planned out for him in S6. So if they ret-con him... I’ll understand why.

3) The endings.

I know I’ve gone on about this at length, but what I love about the end of ‘Chosen’ is that Buffy is *free*! In theory she can do whatever she wants, and - I’ve come to realise - this is something infinitely precious. That moment at the edge of the Hellmouth is where canon stops. The trails fanning out from there head off in so many directions that to choose just one narrative is a huge, *vast* reduction in scope. As I said above, I’ve realised that the ending of ‘Chosen’ is more important to me than NFA - because Buffy is human, and because she - for the first time since she was called - has her whole life in front of her. I don’t want that messing with. (Especially not for the sake of sending her to a Scottish castle with Giant!Dawn, Suave!Xander, Super!Willow etc...)

Now the *point* of ‘Not Fade Away’ is that it is Angel’s destiny to fight:

The point of Angel was always that the fight never ends. He'll always fight. It's an eternity of fighting. You can't ever win but the fight is worth fighting.
David Fury

His path from the alley only leads to more battles. So the fact that we’ll get another story about Angel fighting pleases me. (Oh and given the writer, I sincerely doubt that Spike will be 'following Angel around like a puppy dog'. Bryan Lynch's Spike is a BDH and *very* independent!)

4) Shipping.

A lot of people aren’t interested in s6, because it’ll just (needlessly they think) delay Spike going to Buffy. (Or of course they’re just not interested in AtS full stop, which I can’t help them with, sadly). Now personally I think he made his choice in ‘Harm’s Way’ (for whatever reasons), and unless a reason comes along for him to seek Buffy out - or they accidentally cross paths - he’s not thinking in terms of ‘once this is over I’ll go to Buffy’. Anyway, what I’ve come to realise (and I feel like such a traitor) is that I love the characters above the ships. I adore Spuffy with all my heart, but if Spike stayed with Angel and never found his way back to Buffy, and she settled down with someone new and lived a happy life I’d be OK with that. Or if Spike and Angel split up and he went off on his own adventures I’d love that too (thank you Spike:Asylum!). I’m easy - as long as the stories are good, I’m happy to go almost everywhere, ships or no ships. For me that’s one of the joys of the open-endedness of the way the shows finished. Does that make me weird?

Actually re. Spike and being on his own - I don’t see Spike not going to Buffy as him ‘moving on’ per se. He will always love her and that’ll never change, even if he thinks he hasn’t got a shot at a proper future with her. But what he *does* do, I think, is adopt her outlook, her MO: ‘The mission is what matters.’

And that’s as many thoughts as I have room for today...

Comments

[debris4spike]

Thanks for sharing those thoughts - I have never actually seen Angel - altho do know the storyline and have seen the last episode - neither have I seen any of the comics - so my thoughts are (at present) coming from a different angle.

To me Spike will always love Buffy - and whether or not he "finds" her, she will always be in his head ... but I tend to agree with a line I read in a one-shot last year that the reason he was scared was that for that split second in "Chosen" he did believe she loved him - if he saw her, he would lose that moment of perfection.

Buffy, sadly has had to put others first all her life - and Chosen gave her that freedom to do what she wants .... but I think Spike will always be there - that un-requited love ... so whether she can move on to a full relationship is hard to say.

So - some thoughts - but from a completely different perspective!!

[elisi]

so my thoughts are (at present) coming from a different angle.
Different angles are always good. :)

if he saw her, he would lose that moment of perfection.
Ooooh, that's a nice take, but I think he did believe her... wait a moment... Actually, just read my post on Chosen, and then follow the links to the_royal_anna's stuff. :)

so whether she can move on to a full relationship is hard to say.
Oh see I think so. *points to posts above*

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I think my reasons for reading S8 and S6 are more to get my BtVS and AtS fix. I'm still obsessed with both shows and to see many people discuss the new plot-points in S8, what they like and don't like is honestly amazing, it's fun and exciting and kinda like old times. Retcons are annoying, even when I was watching the show I disliked many if all the retcons, but that's what fanfic is for anyway. I was happy to see a few S8 fics written, new stories, new ideas, new developments, new problems. And even though I could care less new ships. Heck, I even have an idea of a ficlet in which Dawn started to feel closer to Willow in S7 than Buffy because of her comment in S8.

I think what I disliked about these issues is the many old faces (Amy, Warren, Ethan) as well as the retcons but looking at the title I think the fact that it's called Long Way Back Home, it's supposed to be about old themes. It's not the first time I didn't like a season premiere. Didn't like all season premiers except for When She Was Bad and Lessons. Perhaps when we get to the real plot, the story will be more impressive. I hope. Though I won't say I'm as disappointed as some fans, I'm liking a lot of things to be so disappointed.

PS: I'm actually liking that Spike is going on by himself (or following Angel *not in a slashy way, hee*) without sticking by his beloved's side. He's been years by Dru's side and then by Buffy's side, it's time to face life as a man of his own and try to improve himself for him and not for the sake of a woman for a change. That's what I liked about S5 AtS Spike.

[elisi]

to see many people discuss the new plot-points in S8, what they like and don't like is honestly amazing, it's fun and exciting and kinda like old times.
Oh I get that. I love that part too. It's like fanfic shared by all of fandom. :)

Retcons are annoying, even when I was watching the show I disliked many if all the retcons, but that's what fanfic is for anyway.
The thing is, when I love something I'll forgive just about anything. But I don't love s8... *sigh*

Perhaps when we get to the real plot, the story will be more impressive. I hope.
Well I don't think it's *possible* for the Faith story to go wrong!

I'm actually liking that Spike is going on by himself (or following Angel *not in a slashy way, hee*) without sticking by his beloved's side.
*nods* I think it's healthy. And above all I love Spike not being the sidekick!

[sp23.livejournal.com]

Anyway, what I've come to realise (and I feel like such a traitor) is that I love the characters above the ships.

I feel that way too, now. With me, something cracked at the end of Chosen when it came to Spuffy, and with Spike on Angel I came to realize that I didn't mind him being without Buffy and that, in fact, I really, really liked him with Angel, even in just a friends/adversaries way. They bring out the best and the worst in each other, I think, and their rich history adds to the partnership.

As you know, I don't feel the way you do about the S8 comics, but I think that's because, for me, the perfect ending for Buffy wasn't Chosen but The Gift. The fact that in the S8 comics she's still fighting the fight isn't that big of a stumbling block for me because I think that after Chosen she finally truly accepted her Slayerness instead of just enduring it. She's doing what she's doing because she wants to. Granted she still experiences loneliness; I think that's to be expected given her situation with the two men she truly loved (if she did indeed truly love Spike, but that's a debate for another day).

So while I was okay with the Buffy series ending with Chosen with the heroes riding off into the sunset, I'm also okay with picking up their adventures again because Buffy didn't die at the end of Chosen so there were actually more adventures to see as long as she didn't retire to Santa Barbara and open a day care center or something. So I'm happy with the S8 comics, I'm enjoying the story, I'm not disappointed that Joss has more adventures to share. That he said that he was "out of ideas" covers a whole multitude of sins, including the fact that SMG was quitting no matter what, he was all wrapped up in his new Firefly playpen, and maybe, at that time, he was out of ideas. Doesn't mean he can't get new ones.

But I'm thrilled about the S6 Angel comics because, unlike a lot of people, I felt dissatisfied with the fade-to-black ending. I really, really wanted to know what happened after, how they survived (did they survive?), how Angel got his crew back including Wesley (because I can't see them not getting Wes back), what happened with W & H. I want to know, so badly I ache with it.

So while I was at first indifferent and then okay with and now really enjoying the S8 comics, I'm excited that we're going to get the S6 comics.

[elisi]

I came to realize that I didn't mind him being without Buffy and that, in fact, I really, really liked him with Angel, even in just a friends/adversaries way.
Yup. Also there came a point when I realised that Angel probably needed Spike more. And, rather worryingly, I found that I was willing to sacrifice Spuffy for the sake of Angel. *pets him*

She's doing what she's doing because she wants to.
Oh I get that. The few fics I've read where she's given up slaying always feel rather OOC to me. It's just that I don't want this *particular* story to be the only option - I want them all! (I'm greedy that way)

Doesn't mean he can't get new ones.
Oh absolutely. It is after all the shiniest 'verse in the world. I just wish he wasn't claiming that it was canon, because that just makes me cross.

I want to know, so badly I ache with it.
Of course I get that, but still I think that alley is perfection.

[shapinglight]

Damn, that's a good post - so much so it's going in my memories. I agree with almost all of it, especially with the thing about endings. NFA was the perfect ending, and I've seen it argued that wanting more after that is a sort of arrogance on the fans' part but I can't agree, because you're right.

NFA may be perfect and if there weren't to be AtS season 6 in comics form, I'd happily live with it, but for all the reasons in that Fury quote there never really can be an end to AtS. It's Angel's fate (and Spike's too, since he's in the same position) to carry on the good fight forever. Call it a mission, call it penance, that's how it is. I don't think they even get to bow out by dying (certainly Spike didn't).

And I know what you mean about Chosen too. To have continued on from there in any direction seems like a terrible narrowing down of Buffy's options and as for the direction Joss has chosen, so far I'm not enamoured of it at all. We'll see, I suppose, but he's going to have to be awfully, awfully clever in the rest of issue 4 to sell this retcon to me.

[elisi]

Damn, that's a good post - so much so it's going in my memories.
Really? *is honoured*

I don't think they even get to bow out by dying (certainly Spike didn't).
Exactly. Now I'm just curious to see how they were supposed to survive...

To have continued on from there in any direction seems like a terrible narrowing down of Buffy's options
Indeed. There are easily 20 fics I could choose that are more satisfying (so far anyway) and I want them all! And I still feel that Joss likes his *ideas* so much that he doesn't stop to worry about the execution.

[sp23.livejournal.com]

and I've seen it argued that wanting more after that is a sort of arrogance on the fans' part

You know, I've seen that written, too, and I'm very confused by that. I wasn't satisfied with the ending of NFA and I want more, and while I may be greedy, I don't see where that equals arrogance. Maybe because I'm not demanding more? I don't know. I just don't get that argument.

[shapinglight]

Should have said, I'm almost 100% certain Wesley will be back in season 6. Joss wasn't nearly finished torturing the poor bloke.

[elisi]

Joss wasn't nearly finished torturing the poor bloke.
I think you're onto something there... can we hear the sound of 'standard perpetuity clause'?

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Terrific post. I have nothing to add, I'm just nodding to every statement. All I can say - join us on IDW forums where Brian Lynch also posts.

[elisi]

Thank you, thank you!

join us on IDW forums where Brian Lynch also posts.
But I don't even have time to keep up with my flist! *weeps*

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

What after all my scintillating arguments and dodgy puns you still don’t believe Warren’s back? I got nothing. And yet keep typing.

Chosen was both an ending and a new beginning. I’d be happy to leave Buffy there on the cusp of a smile but for one thing. In fact lots of things lots of times namely fanfic. Like it or not that clear view of crater has been coloured in too many times now and always the same colours. The thing is with fanfic I already know what it’s going to say, “I’m in UR journalz reading UR posts” and I know that the Immortal is going to turn out to be the very incarnation of evol, I know the disembodied voice/yellow eyed familiar/talking hamburger in her dream is going to be Spike/Angel/Giles, I know Dawn is going to discover big unlocky powers. I just wish for once someone would read their thesaurus all the way through and make her a boat park.

Joss soon the other hand doesn’t keep a blog and is also crazy and mean. He may have thought it was all over back in 2001 but even without reading recent interviews the sheer exuberance of the S8 comics tell me that this is the genius who invented the plot twist having fun. Too much fun on occasion but that’s not a bad fault to begin with.

AtS S6 I’m less sure about. Admittedly because I was never a great Angel fan, every so often it turned up a Smile Time a Home or a Guise will be Guise but it was a boys show when all was said and done and I am no boy. There’s also (to me) something a little offputting about Brian Lynch’s interviews on the subject, he’s a funny guy but so much the Spike fan boy I fear he’ll be writing him as yet another EveryHan (Solo) more than the screw-up I knew and loved. It’s there in the art (based on the Asylum previews) Spike is pretty and action-packing but his face looks weirdly airbrushed, never a wrinkle out of place.

[diachrony.livejournal.com]

I know Dawn is going to discover big unlocky powers. I just wish for once someone would read their thesaurus all the way through and make her a boat park.

::DIES::

I know a couple writers who might well take that challenge!

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Aargh. Please tell me that somewhere on the show (and not just in scripts) they showed the word 'Key' written down, and they weren't actually saying 'Quay' all along...

;-)

[elisi]

What after all my scintillating arguments and dodgy puns you still don’t believe Warren’s back?
Sorry.

In fact lots of things lots of times namely fanfic.
Clearly we read different stuff... OK, so I know a lot of the clichés you mention, but...

I know that the Immortal is going to turn out to be the very incarnation of evol
I presume you've not read shapinglight's Vampire Winter. (B/S, B/A, S/A implied and Buffy/Immortal in the background. Her Immortal is probably the best I've ever read. There is also the one in treacle_a's 'Mortal Wounds', who *is* evil, but might not necessarily think of himself that way. Oh and the one in Three Deep who's *fascinating* and quite possible the Big Bad.)

I know the disembodied voice/yellow eyed familiar/talking hamburger in her dream is going to be Spike/Angel/Giles
Hmmm... struggling to remember any particular ones with that feature.

I know Dawn is going to discover big unlocky powers.
I think people just wish that there had been more done with her on the show. And although I'll grant that the giant thing is new and inventive, the fact that she's apparently regressed to her S6 persona is not nice. Most fics I come across she's simply human and she and Buffy are actually bonding.

I just wish for once someone would read their thesaurus all the way through and make her a boat park.
S2C made her into a *walrus*, what more do you want?

Actually speaking of clichés, then training slayers is (obviously) way up there. And I sort of blinked when Buffy did her little 'if you fight together you are formidable' because I've had Giles say pretty much exactly the same.

the sheer exuberance of the S8 comics tell me that this is the genius who invented the plot twist having fun.
That is rather obvious. :) But then George Lucas had fun doing the prequels... I dunno, he's just not impressed me so far. I don't think it's necessary to make people's heads implode for the sake of plot-twists. It's ballsy, sure, but it's not elegant.

it was a boys show when all was said and done and I am no boy.
A boys show? I'm no boy and I *adore* AtS. Sometimes more than Buffy. There is a darkness and a hopelesness that I love. And - as the_royal_anna once said (in her review of 'Power Play'):

Should we end on the shallow? I think we should. Watching that last scene, where they’re all stood together in a circle with their hands raised, you know what it struck me I’m really going to miss? The experience of watching a TV show and more often than not, wanting to sleep with every single character on screen.

Concurrently. ;)

but so much the Spike fan boy I fear he’ll be writing him as yet another EveryHan (Solo) more than the screw-up I knew and loved.
Have you seen the Drew Goddard quote on my sidebar? I think most of the writers were Spike fanboys. And having pretty much inhaled 'Spike: Asylum' I can say that his Spike is spot-on. Full of all the flaws we know and love. The artwork is *gorgeous*, but then so is Spike - and his vampface is plenty nasty. Actually that is one of my main problems with S8 - it's not pretty enough. My shows were always *beautiful*.

[fishsanwitt]

Loved the post :)

And don't feel like a traitor. ::pets you::

For me, the 'ship is the most important thing in Spuffy - but I enjoy reading other viewpoints.

[elisi]

Thank you!

And don't feel like a traitor. ::pets you::
Aw, thanks. I think it was the moment when I realised that Angel might *need* Spike more than Buffy... and that I was willing to sacrifice the Spuffy for Angel's sake! *pets poor Angel*

For me, the 'ship is the most important thing in Spuffy
Well I think Spuffy is probably the most important thing on Buffy. I can't imagine the show without.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I agree.

I've fallen in love with Brian Lynch's writing style and Frank Urrhu's art to such an extent that I keep hunting other books they've done. And the Spike comics they are doing? I adore.

Having the same issues with the Buffy S8 - which seem to be more interested in telling lame sex jokes than actually developing the characters and telling a story. Warren back from the dead to torture Willow again?? Okay. Amy back to torture Willow again? Fine. But didn't we already explore this in S6 and S7 and far better? Why repeat it? Yeah, I'm still picking them up, still enjoying them to an extent, but my expectations are pretty low.

No, for many of the reasons you stated above - I too am anticipating the Angel S6 co-written by Lynch and Whedon. I think it may actually be better than Buffy S8 because we have new blood, and a huge somewhat anal fan at the helm - which means continuity will not be a problem. Fans are often more careful about continuity than creators - they care more. Drew Goddard was a good example of this. Creators often forget what they did and need to be reminded. ;-)

[elisi]

I agree.
Yay! :)

I keep hunting other books they've done.
Lord I wish I could afford that... *sighs deeply* So far I've only got 'Spike:Asylum' but it's won me over completely!

Why repeat it? Yeah, I'm still picking them up, still enjoying them to an extent, but my expectations are pretty low.
Same here. I wanted to like them, but... meh. I'm hoping the Faith arc will do something neat!

I think it may actually be better than Buffy S8 because we have new blood, and a huge somewhat anal fan at the helm - which means continuity will not be a problem.
Good point! I know that some s8 defenders say that Joss breaking the rules is brilliant, because it does new things... personally I think I'm more inclined to admire someone who can do something great working with what (s)he's got.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I adore Spuffy with all my heart, but if Spike stayed with Angel and never found his way back to Buffy, and she settled down with someone new and lived a happy life I’d be OK with that.
I'm amused by your implication that Spike's feelings for Angel are an exact equivalent of his feelings for Buffy. :)

(Spike:Asylum spoiler)
Fb ubj jbhyq lbh srry vs Ylapu znxrf Frnfba 6 nyy nobhg Fcrpx? (Jr pna'g pnyy vg 'F/O' orpnhfr gung'f nyernql gnxra).

[elisi]

I'm amused by your implication that Spike's feelings for Angel are an exact equivalent of his feelings for Buffy. :)
As the_royal_anna once said: 'I don't think we love in amounts, I think we love in ways.' Just because Spike's feelings for Angel are vastly different from his feelings for Buffy does not mean that they're not as deeply felt.

Fb ubj jbhyq lbh srry vs Ylapu znxrf Frnfba 6 nyy nobhg Fcrpx? (Jr pna'g pnyy vg 'F/O' orpnhfr gung'f nyernql gnxra).
I'd rather like that. :) Bryan Lynch *has* said that he'll be able to turn one 'Asylum' character into a 'canon' one, but if I had to choose it'd probably be Betta George!

[suspiria-1.livejournal.com]

I adore Spuffy with all my heart, but if Spike stayed with Angel and never found his way back to Buffy, and she settled down with someone new and lived a happy life I’d be OK with that.

Well, thank you for depressing me. I'm to go in my corner and cry now because I'm that extremely pathetic. At heart I'm just not a gen story type of fan. *sigh* It feels like a slap in the face everytime I hear Spike "needs to be his own man now." I'm about ready to snap. *keeps temper in control*

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

It feels like a slap in the face everytime I hear Spike "needs to be his own man now."

Yeah, but just imagine how Buffy feels. Both slapped and not getting any.

[biichan.livejournal.com]

Eh, even if Wes is Really Dead No Kidding they still have a loophole to bring him back in. He worked for Wolfram and Hart, after all. We all know about those standard perpetuity clauses ;)

[elisi]

We all know about those standard perpetuity clauses ;)
Ah yes. And Lilah *did* warn him... *looks forward to S6 even more*

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

I agree with things you said about the ending in Chosen and how Buffy is free .I can understand why people are excited over the season 6 comics , more than s.8 .
But here ( and we discussed a lot about it ! ): I think he made his choice in ‘Harm’s Way’ (for whatever reasons), and unless a reason comes along for him to seek Buffy out - or they accidentally cross paths - he’s not thinking in terms of ‘once this is over I’ll go to Buffy’.

You know I don't share this point of view. What he was thinking during season 5 and in that particular moment in 'Harm's way' is one thing , that certainly doesn't mean that he can't or won't change his mind regarding Buffy and what he wants from her.

Anyway, what I’ve come to realise (and I feel like such a traitor) is that I love the characters above the ships. Oh I don't think you can regard yourself as a traitor ! You would be too hard on yourself. ;-)

There 's no wrong in shifting attention to the characters more than to an only ship.

I adore Spuffy with all my heart, but if Spike stayed with Angel and never found his way back to Buffy, and she settled down with someone new and lived a happy life I’d be OK with that. Now you're breaking my heart.:(

[elisi]

that certainly doesn't mean that he can't or won't change his mind regarding Buffy and what he wants from her.
Oh absolutely. That's sort of what I meant - we would have to see a change of heart. It could come at any time, but until then he's 'on his own path', as it were.

Now you're breaking my heart.:(
No I'm not! Honest! What I mean - in as much as I can explain it - is that I *want* Spike to end up with Buffy, but I don't *need* it. I can read and enjoy a story where he doesn't find her again. Oh! I think it's the same principle as the 'Chosen' one - if all of Spike's paths lead to Buffy, then that is a great reduction of his potential.