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Blue Sand: Splitting hairs in the canon debate.
First of all I need to quote ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
the_royal_anna because she has said what I feel, but far, far better than I could ever hope for:
“...I do think the debate about whether or not they represent canon is a fascinating one. What I don't get is the need to set down in stone somewhere that "this is what happened to the characters"; that strange need to reach out and tidy up what's inside other people's heads. Characters never make it from one person's head to another entirely whole. And these characters have made their way through an awful lot of heads.
For me, I think what it comes down to is that stories can't be owned. Only told.”
Now I have a little story about sandboxes... Cutting because you’re probably *way* tired of the canon thing by now. I am too, to be honest, but since it is the only thing so far about the comics that has made me think, I figured I might just as well go with it. *sigh*
****
Once upon a time The Great Master Joss Whedon made a sandbox called 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' and behold - a great crowd came to play in it. And year upon year he kept filling it up with more sand - sometimes it was fine and smooth, and sometimes it was rough and coarse, and not everyone liked the different textures so some stayed in a corner to avoid the parts they didn't like. Then after 7 years The Master announced that he was finished and said unto the crowd: 'The box is yours now - have fun.' And they were sad that there would be no more sand, and yet grateful, because the box was very full.
But then three years later The Master returned, and he said: 'I missed the box and have come back to fill it up with more sand - and behold, now it is blue!'
And then there came great excitement and consterantion over the crowd. Blue sand? Some exlaimed that they had always loved blue best, and some said that they never liked blue at all. Some were willing to wait and see how rough or smooth it would be before making up their mind, and others said that it was not the texture that mattered, but the whole issue of colour. 'But it's sand!' some said, 'therefore it belongs in the sandbox!' 'Nay,' replied the others, 'whoever heard of blue sand? It may (or may not?) be excellent for building castles with, but it should not be mixed with the real sand. We love the sandbox very dearly and do not want the blue to be mixed up with it. Keep it in another sandbox, just next to the main one - because they are alike, even though the hue is wrong.'
****
Heh. Metaphors are fun. Anyway, that last one was obviously sort of my opinion. Now I’m going to make one more attempt at delving into this topic, and it’ll be awkward, because I’m going to try to have my cake and eat it...
I had this whole long thing written down about fanfic etc, but honestly I can’t be bothered. If anyone’s curious I once wrote an essay about why BtVS is such a great springboard for fanfic: Musings on fanfiction.
Anyway, there is in my head a clear divide between the Buffy verse and the story. I can’t accept the comics as the definitive continuation of the Buffy story, but I do accept them as an expansion of the ‘verse. Does that make sense? It’s basically the basis for fanfic: Keeping the ‘verse, but sending the characters down different paths (unless you go for completely AU stories, but I always think the characters lose something if they're not in their own 'verse). So I readily accept that in the Buffyverse sleeping with a thricewise will turn you into a giant. Whether Dawn did so post-Chosen is something entirely different. Facts, info, worldbuilding - all that stuff I’ll happily incorporate into my show.
Because the thing is - the characters are bigger than any story. The show was character driven, not storydriven (which is why it’s so good from a fanfic perspective - see essay):
"Live with a man 40 years, share his house, his meals, speak on every subject. Then tie him up and hold him over the volcano's edge. And on that day you will finally meet the man."
Shan Yu (curtesy of Book, ‘War Stories’, Firefly)
The point was never the volcano, the point was meeting the man. (ETA: I loved all the volcanoes on the show. Dearly!) And you know what - we know that man/those people - pretty well by now. To quotemorgantree:
"Granted, Joss & Co. tapped into some extraordinarily powerful stuff (with Spike's character in particular), and in the world of intellectual property rights these characters still belong to Joss. But the truth is that the characters are so infused with archetypal momentum that they have slipped the traces and now exist unfettered by such constraints."
Joss might have found a new volcano, but...I dunno. There are a lot of great (post-Chosen) volcanoes out there now. And in comic form the whole thing is vastly reduced from what we used to have:
"I am enjoying the story and the dialogue but I do have a problem with the whole series and the problem is Buffy. Although she's Joss's creation she was always given life by SMG and while Joss's words are still there the artist of the comic is, in my view, not sufficiently good to fully capture Buffy as anything other than a generic blonde quippy cheer leader type. Her heart and soul are missing."
kathyh
My initial response to BtVS (and AtS) is always emotional - and then comes the meta. So far neither has stirred in the slightest with the comics. Yes I know we’ve only had 3 issues, but there are *drabbles* that can capture a moment or a character perfectly - that resonate with their rightness. And the comics don’t even look right! Comic!Buffy ain't The Buffy, and - this would worry me if I cared - doesn't even seem to be *my* Buffy at the moment. The thing is that there are so many great stories out there with *my* Buffy in them, and quite frankly I'm not ready to give them up - not for a second. And that's what the comics 'being canon' means - letting all the other stories go.
A lot of this is personal opinion of course - and I’m v. happy for those of you who think the comics are great. But although they might be more sand for the sandbox, I don’t think blue sand could ever be good enough - not even though it gave me the bestest, funniest threesome fantasy ever. Sorry. If it's between blue sand and fanfic, fanfic wins every time.
And now I'll GO AWAY and never speak of this again. *makes solemn vow to self*
the_royal_anna because she has said what I feel, but far, far better than I could ever hope for:“...I do think the debate about whether or not they represent canon is a fascinating one. What I don't get is the need to set down in stone somewhere that "this is what happened to the characters"; that strange need to reach out and tidy up what's inside other people's heads. Characters never make it from one person's head to another entirely whole. And these characters have made their way through an awful lot of heads.
For me, I think what it comes down to is that stories can't be owned. Only told.”
Now I have a little story about sandboxes... Cutting because you’re probably *way* tired of the canon thing by now. I am too, to be honest, but since it is the only thing so far about the comics that has made me think, I figured I might just as well go with it. *sigh*
Once upon a time The Great Master Joss Whedon made a sandbox called 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' and behold - a great crowd came to play in it. And year upon year he kept filling it up with more sand - sometimes it was fine and smooth, and sometimes it was rough and coarse, and not everyone liked the different textures so some stayed in a corner to avoid the parts they didn't like. Then after 7 years The Master announced that he was finished and said unto the crowd: 'The box is yours now - have fun.' And they were sad that there would be no more sand, and yet grateful, because the box was very full.
But then three years later The Master returned, and he said: 'I missed the box and have come back to fill it up with more sand - and behold, now it is blue!'
And then there came great excitement and consterantion over the crowd. Blue sand? Some exlaimed that they had always loved blue best, and some said that they never liked blue at all. Some were willing to wait and see how rough or smooth it would be before making up their mind, and others said that it was not the texture that mattered, but the whole issue of colour. 'But it's sand!' some said, 'therefore it belongs in the sandbox!' 'Nay,' replied the others, 'whoever heard of blue sand? It may (or may not?) be excellent for building castles with, but it should not be mixed with the real sand. We love the sandbox very dearly and do not want the blue to be mixed up with it. Keep it in another sandbox, just next to the main one - because they are alike, even though the hue is wrong.'
Heh. Metaphors are fun. Anyway, that last one was obviously sort of my opinion. Now I’m going to make one more attempt at delving into this topic, and it’ll be awkward, because I’m going to try to have my cake and eat it...
I had this whole long thing written down about fanfic etc, but honestly I can’t be bothered. If anyone’s curious I once wrote an essay about why BtVS is such a great springboard for fanfic: Musings on fanfiction.
Anyway, there is in my head a clear divide between the Buffy verse and the story. I can’t accept the comics as the definitive continuation of the Buffy story, but I do accept them as an expansion of the ‘verse. Does that make sense? It’s basically the basis for fanfic: Keeping the ‘verse, but sending the characters down different paths (unless you go for completely AU stories, but I always think the characters lose something if they're not in their own 'verse). So I readily accept that in the Buffyverse sleeping with a thricewise will turn you into a giant. Whether Dawn did so post-Chosen is something entirely different. Facts, info, worldbuilding - all that stuff I’ll happily incorporate into my show.
Because the thing is - the characters are bigger than any story. The show was character driven, not storydriven (which is why it’s so good from a fanfic perspective - see essay):
"Live with a man 40 years, share his house, his meals, speak on every subject. Then tie him up and hold him over the volcano's edge. And on that day you will finally meet the man."
Shan Yu (curtesy of Book, ‘War Stories’, Firefly)
The point was never the volcano, the point was meeting the man. (ETA: I loved all the volcanoes on the show. Dearly!) And you know what - we know that man/those people - pretty well by now. To quote
morgantree:"Granted, Joss & Co. tapped into some extraordinarily powerful stuff (with Spike's character in particular), and in the world of intellectual property rights these characters still belong to Joss. But the truth is that the characters are so infused with archetypal momentum that they have slipped the traces and now exist unfettered by such constraints."
Joss might have found a new volcano, but...I dunno. There are a lot of great (post-Chosen) volcanoes out there now. And in comic form the whole thing is vastly reduced from what we used to have:
"I am enjoying the story and the dialogue but I do have a problem with the whole series and the problem is Buffy. Although she's Joss's creation she was always given life by SMG and while Joss's words are still there the artist of the comic is, in my view, not sufficiently good to fully capture Buffy as anything other than a generic blonde quippy cheer leader type. Her heart and soul are missing."
kathyhMy initial response to BtVS (and AtS) is always emotional - and then comes the meta. So far neither has stirred in the slightest with the comics. Yes I know we’ve only had 3 issues, but there are *drabbles* that can capture a moment or a character perfectly - that resonate with their rightness. And the comics don’t even look right! Comic!Buffy ain't The Buffy, and - this would worry me if I cared - doesn't even seem to be *my* Buffy at the moment. The thing is that there are so many great stories out there with *my* Buffy in them, and quite frankly I'm not ready to give them up - not for a second. And that's what the comics 'being canon' means - letting all the other stories go.
A lot of this is personal opinion of course - and I’m v. happy for those of you who think the comics are great. But although they might be more sand for the sandbox, I don’t think blue sand could ever be good enough - not even though it gave me the bestest, funniest threesome fantasy ever. Sorry. If it's between blue sand and fanfic, fanfic wins every time.
And now I'll GO AWAY and never speak of this again. *makes solemn vow to self*
no subject
I can understand the 'verse being separate from the story but not the characters. Story is the only thing we have to show us who they are, the volcano may not be the point but if you don’t take him there you won’t see the man. I think the thing is my opinion on Buffy is still malleable, I still enjoy being surprised by her and I never get that from fanfic.
I don’t think anyone has a problem with the idea that we all have different ideas of what the story is and how it ends but the word canon implies not a personal interpretation but consensus on the revealed word of God and wars have been fought over less. It’s not a good word to use as sand, blue or otherwise, for extinguishing the fires of debate.
If we take it as no more than the set of texts to work from for a given purpose then I think what’s canon depends on the purpose. If I were writing an analysis of Buffy as a feminist icon from a literary point of view I almost certainly would include the comics because Joss wrote them. But the same essay from a media studies POV might do better to focus exclusively on the TV show because more people saw it and it was the show that shaped public opinion. As far as fanfic is concerned, well obviously people write or read it according to their personal interpretation of the story not some ‘consensus’ view (it might be different for tie-in novels). Canon only becomes relevant when the word gets used to express an opinion on a fic, “I didn’t like it because the characterisation wasn’t canonical” and then it gets crazy because people start to argue as if the characters were real people with objective and measurable qualities.
no subject
Oh definitely. And I loved the story we got on the show - AR and all. I wouldn't change a thing. What I meant was that the show was characterdriven - contrast with say 'Romeo & Juliet'... their story is more important than them - if they don't die, what's the point?
I think the thing is my opinion on Buffy is still malleable, I still enjoy being surprised by her and I never get that from fanfic.
Well I'm *certainly* not getting it from the comics. The main thing is that Joss let her go at the end of 'Chosen'. "Write fanfic!" he told those who wanted a continuation. He was done - and the story he had told was of a young girl growing up. When we left her at the edge of the crater one chapter of her life was finished and another about to start. And the thing is, that freedom is something so great no single story could ever be enough. Buffy at that moment has a wide open future and I neither want nor need that future set in stone. Fanfic has given me so many different avenues and scenarioes, so many possibilites, that saying that the only path from the edge of the Hellmouth is to a castle in Scotland with a bunch of Slayers, sullen Giant!Dawn, Suave!Xander, Super!Willow, and Amy, Warren and the Cult of the Beautiful Sunset as villians is a *huge*, vast reduction of the potential Buffy had at that moment.
the word canon implies not a personal interpretation but consensus on the revealed word of God
Very well, the comics are the apocrypha. Hmm, that's an excellent way of looking at it. *adopts*
If we take it as no more than the set of texts to work from for a given purpose then I think what’s canon depends on the purpose.
Oh yes. Nothing to argue there.
no subject
Actually I was going more for the comics being the Koran. On which the unbelievers are taking a very Christian perspective :-)
no subject
I have a feeling we might be going a bit far now! *g*
no subject
no subject