elisi | Blue Sand: Splitting hairs in the canon debate.

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Blue Sand: Splitting hairs in the canon debate.

First of all I need to quote

the_royal_anna because she has said what I feel, but far, far better than I could ever hope for:

“...I do think the debate about whether or not they represent canon is a fascinating one. What I don't get is the need to set down in stone somewhere that "this is what happened to the characters"; that strange need to reach out and tidy up what's inside other people's heads. Characters never make it from one person's head to another entirely whole. And these characters have made their way through an awful lot of heads.

For me, I think what it comes down to is that stories can't be owned. Only told.”

Now I have a little story about sandboxes... Cutting because you’re probably *way* tired of the canon thing by now. I am too, to be honest, but since it is the only thing so far about the comics that has made me think, I figured I might just as well go with it. *sigh*

****
Once upon a time The Great Master Joss Whedon made a sandbox called 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' and behold - a great crowd came to play in it. And year upon year he kept filling it up with more sand - sometimes it was fine and smooth, and sometimes it was rough and coarse, and not everyone liked the different textures so some stayed in a corner to avoid the parts they didn't like. Then after 7 years The Master announced that he was finished and said unto the crowd: 'The box is yours now - have fun.' And they were sad that there would be no more sand, and yet grateful, because the box was very full.

But then three years later The Master returned, and he said: 'I missed the box and have come back to fill it up with more sand - and behold, now it is blue!'

And then there came great excitement and consterantion over the crowd. Blue sand? Some exlaimed that they had always loved blue best, and some said that they never liked blue at all. Some were willing to wait and see how rough or smooth it would be before making up their mind, and others said that it was not the texture that mattered, but the whole issue of colour. 'But it's sand!' some said, 'therefore it belongs in the sandbox!' 'Nay,' replied the others, 'whoever heard of blue sand? It may (or may not?) be excellent for building castles with, but it should not be mixed with the real sand. We love the sandbox very dearly and do not want the blue to be mixed up with it. Keep it in another sandbox, just next to the main one - because they are alike, even though the hue is wrong.'

****
Heh. Metaphors are fun. Anyway, that last one was obviously sort of my opinion. Now I’m going to make one more attempt at delving into this topic, and it’ll be awkward, because I’m going to try to have my cake and eat it...

I had this whole long thing written down about fanfic etc, but honestly I can’t be bothered. If anyone’s curious I once wrote an essay about why BtVS is such a great springboard for fanfic: Musings on fanfiction.

Anyway, there is in my head a clear divide between the Buffy verse and the story. I can’t accept the comics as the definitive continuation of the Buffy story, but I do accept them as an expansion of the ‘verse. Does that make sense? It’s basically the basis for fanfic: Keeping the ‘verse, but sending the characters down different paths (unless you go for completely AU stories, but I always think the characters lose something if they're not in their own 'verse). So I readily accept that in the Buffyverse sleeping with a thricewise will turn you into a giant. Whether Dawn did so post-Chosen is something entirely different. Facts, info, worldbuilding - all that stuff I’ll happily incorporate into my show.

Because the thing is - the characters are bigger than any story. The show was character driven, not storydriven (which is why it’s so good from a fanfic perspective - see essay):

"Live with a man 40 years, share his house, his meals, speak on every subject. Then tie him up and hold him over the volcano's edge. And on that day you will finally meet the man."
Shan Yu (curtesy of Book, ‘War Stories’, Firefly)

The point was never the volcano, the point was meeting the man. (ETA: I loved all the volcanoes on the show. Dearly!) And you know what - we know that man/those people - pretty well by now. To quote

morgantree:

"Granted, Joss & Co. tapped into some extraordinarily powerful stuff (with Spike's character in particular), and in the world of intellectual property rights these characters still belong to Joss. But the truth is that the characters are so infused with archetypal momentum that they have slipped the traces and now exist unfettered by such constraints."

Joss might have found a new volcano, but...I dunno. There are a lot of great (post-Chosen) volcanoes out there now. And in comic form the whole thing is vastly reduced from what we used to have:

"I am enjoying the story and the dialogue but I do have a problem with the whole series and the problem is Buffy. Although she's Joss's creation she was always given life by SMG and while Joss's words are still there the artist of the comic is, in my view, not sufficiently good to fully capture Buffy as anything other than a generic blonde quippy cheer leader type. Her heart and soul are missing."

kathyh

My initial response to BtVS (and AtS) is always emotional - and then comes the meta. So far neither has stirred in the slightest with the comics. Yes I know we’ve only had 3 issues, but there are *drabbles* that can capture a moment or a character perfectly - that resonate with their rightness. And the comics don’t even look right! Comic!Buffy ain't The Buffy, and - this would worry me if I cared - doesn't even seem to be *my* Buffy at the moment. The thing is that there are so many great stories out there with *my* Buffy in them, and quite frankly I'm not ready to give them up - not for a second. And that's what the comics 'being canon' means - letting all the other stories go.

A lot of this is personal opinion of course - and I’m v. happy for those of you who think the comics are great. But although they might be more sand for the sandbox, I don’t think blue sand could ever be good enough - not even though it gave me the bestest, funniest threesome fantasy ever. Sorry. If it's between blue sand and fanfic, fanfic wins every time.

And now I'll GO AWAY and never speak of this again. *makes solemn vow to self*

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Anyway, there is in my head a clear divide between the Buffy verse and the story. I can’t accept the comics as the definitive continuation of the Buffy story, but I do accept them as an expansion of the ‘verse. Does that make sense?

Oddly enough it's the other way round for me. The verse is tied in with the tv format and its special language (the shots, the pace, the music, the colours even)and with the actors who played the characters. That's the Buffyverse I was addicted to. I can enjoy and even believe in stories told by fanfictions or comics as long as the characters are credible and the writing/drawing is good, but they are only stories based on the verse, not a continuation but not an extension either. If Joss says it's Buffy's story I suppose it is since he's the Master ruling her storyline but it is no longer the Buffyverse for me.

I guess it's part of the Jossverse though and it must be Joss' Buffy.

If Joss says it's Buffy's story I suppose it is since he's the Master ruling her storyline but it is no longer the Buffyverse for me.
Ah but we agree on that too! As in - it's no longer the verse. What I mean is, that if I wanted someone to become a giant in a fic I'd happily use the thricewise thing, but it'd be in my own post-NFA fic, not the comic story. (Lord I hope that makes sense - this really is splitting hairs...)

I guess it's part of the Jossverse though and it must be Joss' Buffy.
Yeah, but without SMG it not the same. Blue sand, you see? Looks wrong, feels wrong.

I suppose that we partly agree and partly disagree at once! :- )

I meant that, unlike you, I had no problem accepting the comics as the the continuation of Buffy's story because Joss is the storyteller concerning Buffy while you seemed to consider them as not being the true story but being the verse still hence the division in your head.

Perhaps it's because for you the story is more important than the verse?

Ok I think I just gave myself a headache...

Ok I think I just gave myself a headache...
Heh. Sorry about that.

Perhaps it's because for you the story is more important than the verse?
I hadn't thought about it like that before. Maybe. See I *love* the story we got (the Spike/Buffy part partiuclarly) and although there were bumps along the way I wouldn't change a single thing.

Oh I loved it too and that's the reason I read Spuffy fanfictions, to keep the Spike/Buffy story going on...but I think that the verse is what I loved the most.

My problem with the comics is that it isn't the verse and it isn't even Spuffy either so I can't bring myself to care.

There is something to be said for not being emotionally invested in a story. Reading with almost complete detachment is... quite nice to be honest. As long as Joss doesn't pair Buffy up with Xander or Willow I'm fine! :)

Answered too quickly and forgot half of what I was going to say:

they are only stories based on the verse, not a continuation but not an extension either
That is sort of how I feel too - no fanfic carries more weight than any other, which is the joy of it. There is no post-NFA scenario set in stone and I don't want one. I'll certainly not accept one in comic form. It's just a story like all the others. It happens to be Joss's story, but since it ain't on screen it doesn't count.

It happens to be Joss's story, but since it ain't on screen it doesn't count.

No it doesn't.

Bu why do you think you keep reading the comics then? Is it because all things Joss are appealing?

Is it because all things Joss are appealing?
Pretty much. And it's fun to see people talking about them. Essentially I'm reading for the same reason I jump on a new WIP by a favourite author - because I'm hoping for a great story. Sadly it's not THE story anymore, and that makes me sad, but I'm praying for a good ride nonetheless.

Yeah we keep believing in Joss...and I was about to add that it was probably a way to keep the fandom alive too.

Also I don't read the comics but I read what others think about them so I must a be a little be interested in the story Joss wants to tell...

Keeping fandom alive is definitely of the good. :)

Mostly I just wish the comics were prettier. *sigh*

Anyway, there is in my head a clear divide between the Buffy verse and the story.

On which note, I'm going to adapt your metaphor to suit my own views.

Once, there was a battered and decrepit old sandbox called Genre TV. Along came Joss, and filled it up with new sand. He stirred up the old sand that was there too, and even sneaked out at night and stole sand from other people's sandboxes and mixed it up in new and interesting ways.

And then Joss built a huge sandcastle, with seven towers. And people gathered around, and they said things like "Ooh" and "Aah" and "That's nice" and "The fourth tower isn't as good as the first three" and "That sixth tower looks wonky" and "Are you blind? The sixth tower is far more interesting than the others!" And some people wrote long essays on what the moat around the seventh tower symbolised, and how the turret on the fifth tower matched the one on the second, but backwards, and this must Mean Something.

And everybody was happy, apart from the ones who thought he shouldn't have built the last couple of towers.

Some people weren't just happy looking, though - they wanted to play in the sandbox too. Some of them added extra turrets and decorative bits to the existing towers. Some people used the spare sand and started building their own sandcastles. And they were happy.

Then Joss came along with even more sand - blue, this time - and started adding an eighth tower. Some people thought it was really nice, and others hated it. As for the ones who'd also been playing in the sandbox themselves, opinion was likewise mixed. Some couldn't wait to add their own bits to Joss's castle, just as they had before. Others were less impressed. A few pointed to the sandcastles they or their friends had made, and said they were just as good as Joss's - or even better - and so they weren't interested in his eighth tower. Some even turned their backs on it so they didn't have to see it.

And a few said that Joss shouldn't have added the eighth tower at all, and if he wanted to come and play in a sandbox he should build a new one, not mess up "theirs". Because the new blue sand Joss had brought wasn't real sand, and they didn't like it and didn't want it. And while they couldn't stop him using it (he owned the sandbox, after all) they could certainly refuse to use it themselves.

Joss just shrugged, and built his tower. (Random thought... 100,000 comics sold per issue at $3.00 each - if Joss gets a 5% royalty that's $15,000 per month. Does that sound an accurate figure? Too high? Too low?)

And now I'll GO AWAY and never speak of this again. *makes solemn vow to self*

Does that mean you won't even be replying to comments?
:)

Does that mean you won't even be replying to comments?
As if that'd ever happen...

I love your sand castle metaphor, it's very excellent. It's just that blue sand is so different from regular sand that the castle is pretty indistinguishable from all the amateur castles (some of whom are very good). And even if Joss's blue castle became the prettiest castle ever (and that threesome turret was *inspired*) I still wouldn't put it alongside the other seven. It's not about the story, it's about the form. Actually it's also about the story - in that no single story can now encapsulate post-Chosen Buffy for me. Have you read 'Sophie's World'? At the end of the story-within-the-story the characters escaped. It's a bit like that with Buffy. Joss is trying to tie her down again, but in comic form he's only got a snippet, not all of her.

And now I have to put children to bed. And then I'll probably play a little in that sandbox... *g*

I started answering you - and it got really, really long...so I made a post out of it, if you're interested...

And very good it is too - will reply on your LJ properly when I get the time. :)

yay! I know I can't count on you to put eloquently what I think. And hey your verse =! story is probably the reason why it annoys me so much to see stragelike mating rituals on fanfic, even more than the fact that the S8 doesn't feel as true!Btvs as it should.

Though the comic is pretty bad according to some, for me is lacking more than sucking and I'll put up with it as long as as it doesn't make wanna gag.

the fact that the S8 doesn't feel as true!Btvs as it should.
I don't think it ever could, and honestly I'm quite happy about that.

for me is lacking more than sucking
Yes. I'm hoping for something more interesting with the one-shot! :)

Love the metaphore! Or possibly I mean analogy; I might be sure after I finish the coffee... :D

Or possibly I mean analogy; I might be sure after I finish the coffee... :D
Heee! Now I want to watch 'Smile Time'... And glad that you liked. :)

The point was never the volcano, the point was meeting the man
I can understand the 'verse being separate from the story but not the characters. Story is the only thing we have to show us who they are, the volcano may not be the point but if you don’t take him there you won’t see the man. I think the thing is my opinion on Buffy is still malleable, I still enjoy being surprised by her and I never get that from fanfic.

I don’t think anyone has a problem with the idea that we all have different ideas of what the story is and how it ends but the word canon implies not a personal interpretation but consensus on the revealed word of God and wars have been fought over less. It’s not a good word to use as sand, blue or otherwise, for extinguishing the fires of debate.

If we take it as no more than the set of texts to work from for a given purpose then I think what’s canon depends on the purpose. If I were writing an analysis of Buffy as a feminist icon from a literary point of view I almost certainly would include the comics because Joss wrote them. But the same essay from a media studies POV might do better to focus exclusively on the TV show because more people saw it and it was the show that shaped public opinion. As far as fanfic is concerned, well obviously people write or read it according to their personal interpretation of the story not some ‘consensus’ view (it might be different for tie-in novels). Canon only becomes relevant when the word gets used to express an opinion on a fic, “I didn’t like it because the characterisation wasn’t canonical” and then it gets crazy because people start to argue as if the characters were real people with objective and measurable qualities.

the volcano may not be the point but if you don’t take him there you won’t see the man
Oh definitely. And I loved the story we got on the show - AR and all. I wouldn't change a thing. What I meant was that the show was characterdriven - contrast with say 'Romeo & Juliet'... their story is more important than them - if they don't die, what's the point?

I think the thing is my opinion on Buffy is still malleable, I still enjoy being surprised by her and I never get that from fanfic.
Well I'm *certainly* not getting it from the comics. The main thing is that Joss let her go at the end of 'Chosen'. "Write fanfic!" he told those who wanted a continuation. He was done - and the story he had told was of a young girl growing up. When we left her at the edge of the crater one chapter of her life was finished and another about to start. And the thing is, that freedom is something so great no single story could ever be enough. Buffy at that moment has a wide open future and I neither want nor need that future set in stone. Fanfic has given me so many different avenues and scenarioes, so many possibilites, that saying that the only path from the edge of the Hellmouth is to a castle in Scotland with a bunch of Slayers, sullen Giant!Dawn, Suave!Xander, Super!Willow, and Amy, Warren and the Cult of the Beautiful Sunset as villians is a *huge*, vast reduction of the potential Buffy had at that moment.

the word canon implies not a personal interpretation but consensus on the revealed word of God
Very well, the comics are the apocrypha. Hmm, that's an excellent way of looking at it. *adopts*

If we take it as no more than the set of texts to work from for a given purpose then I think what’s canon depends on the purpose.
Oh yes. Nothing to argue there.

Very well, the comics are the apocrypha.

Actually I was going more for the comics being the Koran. On which the unbelievers are taking a very Christian perspective :-)

Hmmm. I guess that would make Early!Buffy (S1-3 or maybe S1-5) the Torah...

I have a feeling we might be going a bit far now! *g*

Then season 6 is Kama Sutra...

Bwah! :D

Oh! Pretty, pretty layout!

I *love* the blue sand metaphor. Keep the blue sand in the blue sandbox, and you can make all the blue castles you want. But if you put the blue sand in the original sand box, it turns all the golden sand grey.

Oh! Pretty, pretty layout!
Lovely, isn't it? I just felt in a pink mood. :)

I *love* the blue sand metaphor.
I thought you might. *g*

But if you put the blue sand in the original sand box, it turns all the golden sand grey.
Oh that is beautifully put! :) It's odd actually, because I never realised just how much I loved the ending of 'Chosen' until Joss went and meddled with it. The point of that ending is that Buffy is free to do whatever she wants.

(Interestingly I'm not as bothered about 'Not Fade Away' - yes it was the perfect ending, and no amount of comics is going to change that. But the point of it was that the fight would never end, so if Joss wants to tell 1 or 5 or 50 more stories about Angel's fights, then that's only what we knew was coming anyway. (Apart from crazy B/A shippers who think that he shashued and he and Buffy lived happily ever after! *g*))

Anyway - I'll send you a teeny surprise in your e-mail. :)

Squeeeee! That's such a beautiful surprise. Thank you. :)

I never realised just how much I loved the ending of 'Chosen' until Joss went and meddled with it.

One of the things I've discovered lately is I'm more protective than I imagined of Season 7. It's not as tidy a story as some of the earlier seasons, but then, it's almost the message of Season 7. You don't get to tie up all your loose ends - but when the moment happens where you have to leave one story behind and start the next one, can you say you lived that story with your whole heart while you had the chance? My Buffy could - in the end.

My Buffy could - in the end.
*sniff* So could mine.

One of the things I've discovered lately is I'm more protective than I imagined of Season 7. It's not as tidy a story as some of the earlier seasons
When I did my re-watch of S7 last year, I discovered that I loved it even more than I thought. Yes the story aspects could have been handled better, but thematically and metaphorically the season hangs together better than any other I think. And the Spuffy story is just magical. (Did you ever read my post about Chosen? Not that is says anything new...)

Anyway, there is in my head a clear divide between the Buffy verse and the story. I can’t accept the comics as the definitive continuation of the Buffy story, but I do accept them as an expansion of the ‘verse. Does that make sense? It’s basically the basis for fanfic: Keeping the ‘verse, but sending the characters down different paths

That *is* what I wanted to say. Thanks for the link to this.

That *is* what I wanted to say. Thanks for the link to this.
My pleasure! And I'm glad you thought the same way - it proves that I'm not crazy! ;)

Followed your link here! Blue sand it one way of putting it, I guess.....for me, it is clear sand. Because the actors are not there to give it life, it lacks colour, expression, and emotion.

I miss my actors, and the life they brought to the characters.

Comes down to the fact some of the life blood is missing, without the actors to breath the live into it.

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Blue Sand: Splitting hairs in the canon debate.

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