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So, I finally got myself a S8 icon (by

dreamer1104) - but then this is by a mile my favourite scene so far.

Anyway, more linkage - quite a lot of musing about feminism etc.:

Brief thoughts by

kathyh.
Deep thoughts by

molly_may.
Deep thoughts by

thedeadlyhook.
Response to the Deep Thoughts by

stormwreath. (Now with nifty icon! Check it out! *g*)
Summary and analysis by

moscow_watcher.
Thoughts by

ibmiller.

ETA3: Nifty comparisions between comic and show images. (

stormwreath again!) (Who is the mystery guy...?)

ETA: Saw that this post was rec'd in The Herald, so here are previous links:

Review by

stormwreath
Review by

yourlibrarian.
Review by

aycheb.
Very funny review by

shapinglight.

I think the best things about the comics is how we're all reading them, and thus discussing the same topics. Yes there's bitching about the art, but most of the posts delve a lot deeper. Even if Joss might disappoint, fandom does not.

Actually - a thought on the whole feminism thing. Both

molly_may and

thedeadlyhook comment on how all the men (even Andrew!) seem to be cool and in charge, whereas the Slayers are just a bunch of girls that need someone to lead them. And Buffy is all tied down and helpless...
I think (as

thedeadlyhook said) that this is where the comic format is really awkward. One issue is only about 1/4 of an episode, so in effect we have only just seen half of ep. 1 of S8 - and if there's anything that usually happens in ep 1 it's Buffy faltering, doubting herself etc - and then turning around to save the day at the end. So I'm stubbornly holding out hope that at the end of issue 4 Buffy will be The Hero, showing the rest of them how it's done.

ETA: I was going to make more points, but

stormwreath made a lot of them already. So I'll go sit in the lovely sunshine.

Also I want Andrew's daft speech to have some sort of meaning - clothes make the man? Don't judge by appearences? Guess I'll have to wait and see, but the thing takes up an awful lot of space for no apparent reason.

Also a Happy Birthday to

azdak and

sarahlynnl! Hope you had/have fabulous days! :)

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Also I want Andrew's daft speech to have some sort of meaning - clothes make the man? Don't judge by appearences? Guess I'll have to wait and see, but the thing takes up an awful lot of space for no apparent reason.

Yes, I thought that. In fact neither Giles nor Andrew need to be there at all so I'm hopeful that it will all tie together at the end. If Joss runs true to form these first four episodes ought to be setting up the themes for the entire season, so I certainly hope it means something beyond just giving Andrew a chance to riff on Star Wars!

Both molly_may and thedeadlyhook comment on how all the men (even Andrew!) seem to be cool and in charge, whereas the Slayers are just a bunch of girls that need someone to lead them. And Buffy is all tied down and helpless...

I can sort of see the point if I squint hard, but I'm not really buying it. Xander seems cool and in charge, certainly - which I think is deserved after his character development in seasons 5-7. Even so, as soon as the excrement hits the rotary air impeller at the end of #2 he freezes up and panics, unable to help. Giles is cool and domineering, but I'm not sure he's doing much to win the respect of the girls he's teaching - Buffy's hands-on approach seems much better from that perspective. And Andrew is whiny, irrelevant and annoying, and fails to give proper answers.

As for the women - remember the very first scene of #1 was a group of new Slayers kicking ass. Leah, Satsu and Rowena did the cool abseiling out of a helicopter thing with Buffy, and Rowena's squad killed two of the big scaley demons while Buffy herself only got one of them - and while Buffy was back on form with the quippage, Leah got in a sarky remark of her own. Buffy's being a pretty effective leader here - showing excellent fighting ability (note that she can beat three Slayers single handed, and make it look easy), a good grasp of tactics (the 'flank them' surprise attack in the cathedral in #1) but is also showing concern for the morale and feelings of her squad. Contrast her comments about Satsu's new hairdo here with the way she didn't even learn the Potentials' names in S7...

As for the supposed "pandering to the male gaze" - yes, I suppose the shot of Buffy tied to her bed could be considered exploitative, but people complaining about it really ought to also complain about all the images of shirtless Spike or Angel being tied up we were given on the show. :) It's meant to be a nightmare image - very deliberately reminiscent of the old cliché of the virgin in a scanty negligee tied to a sacrificial altar. Joss starts subverting it on the very next page when Amy's dagger splits into fragments when she tries to stab Buffy. As for whether Buffy is a damsel needing to be rescued by heroic men - firstly, Xander seems pretty much at a loss at the end of the episode and if there is any cavalry riding to the rescue, it's in the form of a cute redhead in a flowy green dress and RenFair bodice, not a man. But given what we're shown of Buffy's dream, I've a suspicion that she's going to have to fight her own way out of the enchantment, by drawing on her own strengths, instincts and memories of relationships. Call it a feeling...

On a final note, I think this quote from Mr Whedon, from his introduction to 'Fray', might be relevant:

"I had come to Dark Horse with pretty much one stipulation: No cheesecake. No giant silicone hooters, no standing with her butt out in that bizarrely uncomfortable soft-core pose that so many artists favor. None of those outfits that casually - and constantly - reveal portions of thong. I wanted a real girl"

Of course, real girls do sometimes wear nothing but their underwear, especially if they're in their bedroom getting ready for bed. The gratuitousness only comes if they do it all the time, even when there's no apparent reason for it...

Stormwreath just made all the serious points I would have wanted to so am mercifully free to babble on about clothing. Where there’s clothing there’s lint, possibly evil lint clearly lint is very important here. The raw material of spinners, its presence in Buffy’s nightmare bedroom ties in nicely to the whole “Sleeping Beauty” scenario. Is it significant that the failed sacrificial dagger means her finger was never pricked and she’s really not 16 any more.

Andrew mentioned costumes in a Star Wars context I suppose he could have been meaning to segue in to a point about how as a Jedi is to his lightsaber, a slayer is to her stake and guns are for imperial loser stormtroopers. But outfits, Xander only has two and duckie pajamas by night so Buffy’s nightwear is to provide an equivalent contrast? It’s more Janet Raeger than what she used to sleep in on the show but her daywear though fetching is more functional than of old and a change always conducive to a rest.

and if there's anything that usually happens in ep 1 it's Buffy faltering, doubting herself etc - and then turning around to save the day at the end

That was exactly my point - what we're getting now is likely to be setup for a later reversal, given Joss's tendencies, but even if it is, in the meantime, we're still getting Cool!Xander contrasted with whiny Dawn a Buffy whose been mystically taken out of her own story. This is comics, a place where females being active isn't a progressive thing all by itself - it's the norm. We have book starring a butt-kicking female character who's in need of mystic rescue as of issue 2. What, as a reader, am I being asked to think at this point? (And I think I can guarantee it's not wow, cool, this Buffy girl is awesome - I wanna be like her... thus my problem.)

You keep editing your post every time I update my journal. I'm beginning to feel stalked. :)

(Seriously, thanks for the pimping...)

It's one of the areas where the format *really* doesn't fit the type of storytelling that made Buffy so great. It's not like you can leave a setup, get the reader/viewer at a zenith emotionally, have a 3 minute commercial interlude where the images and information aren't coalesced into opinion before the other shoe drops. There are 4 months between Act 1 and the Fade to Black and to start that off by dropping us off into a serious ret-con at the outset, the characters barely looking like themselves, with the dynamic (apparently) drastically different from the show (which, IMO, didn't really delve this far into the damsel bit, rising action or not), I'm not sure what we're supposed to think.

Wow. I wanna put this in a frame and hang it in my bedroom. Word to everything you said.

Thanks for collecting the various reviews. Have you thought about posting this to

newly_legion?

Enjoy the sunshine!

which, IMO, didn't really delve this far into the damsel bit, rising action or not

Exactly; I concurr. And, as I recall, when Buffy did seem to be falling into that zone on the show, we all complained about it then, too. (I can't even count the number of angry rants I've read about "Into the Woods.") But did Buffy ever need to be saved in a way that we're being set up for here, and left that way at the end of an episode? "Weight of the World" is about the only one I can think of.

Hm. Okay, also "Seeing Red," with the gunshot wound. And I'd note that in both cases, the rescuer was Willow.

And then she wasn't writhing on a bed in an incongruous nighty waiting for a 'true love' to awaken her.

If it was just that one thing, maybe it'd be different. But you got the overwhelming male authority as you pointed out, a gaggle of almost interchangeable Slayers, SuperStud Xander...

Thanks for posting this. Very handy for finding everyone's reviews.

Wellcome to the Hellmouth? We only know she saved herself because we watched The Harvest. And this isn't the end of an episode it's half way through one in which case the list is pretty endless. There used to be a misson statement, girl goes into an alley and meets a monster...

But she trounces him. The dramatic power comes precisely from the punchline being unexpected. I think the problem it's been a long time since the series ended and we've all gotten complacent. Joss is just not a safe writer in any medium. And sometimes he screws up.

ETA I hardly think Andrew making a prat of himself failing to answer a simple question about guns counts towards overwhelming male authority.

If Joss runs true to form these first four episodes ought to be setting up the themes for the entire season
Exactly. I just wish I could tell what they'd be...

Well I've replied to this already, and - as always - I can easily see both sides of the argument and am thus unable to make up my mind. *sigh*

But she didn't need to be saved in that circumstance; she saved herself, as with Reptile Boy and numerous other occasions. Although, the pedantic part of me has to point out that WTTH and The Harvest aired back to back, so it's not like we were left for a week even in that instance.

That could prove to be the case here as well (I'd love to see Buffy wake up on her own) but we'll find that out in...June if they follow a derivative 4-act structure from a TV show. Meanwhile all this strangeness (much of which, I agree with thedeadlyhook, is seemingly appalling) is festering without explanation for weeks at a time. The Ha-Ha, Gotcha!! gag works very well in the almost instant gratification of TV, but not here.

I think everyone realizes it's early on and guns are dangerously close to being jumped, but in all honesty, nothing I've seen is drawing me in, but rather violently putting me off.

Where there’s clothing there’s lint, possibly evil lint clearly lint is very important here.
Yup! Clothes, appearance etc obviously play a role - I just want *more*! Getting tiny tidbits is very frustrating...

Is it significant that the failed sacrificial dagger means her finger was never pricked and she’s really not 16 any more.
Many thoughts... will ponder.

I'm beginning to feel stalked. :)
Well it's obviously mutual since you notice *my* post too... ;)

And your post is v. interesting and made many good counter points. I love to keep people debating!

Thanks for collecting the various reviews.
It was partly just my way of making up for not commenting on them all...

Have you thought about posting this to newly_legion?
No.. but then I've never come across it until now. Will go check it out.

And the sunshine was lovely. :)

My pleasure. :)

(And that's a lovely icon!)

Um, nothing to say really, since people are having lovely discussions and I sadly don't have the time. I can see both sides of the argument, but I think I'm leaning ever so slightly to your side! :)

I have no deep thoughts about season 8, just that I'm enjoying it so far. I love having Buffy back, even just a little, and I'm anxious to see where it goes.

Granted I also adore things other BtVS fans seem to hate, such as Riley, Angel, Andrew, and The Girl In Question.

But she didn't need to be saved in that circumstance; she saved herself, as with Reptile Boy and numerous other occasions.

Agreed; in the fadeout in "Welcome to the Hellmouth," she's just been involved in a serious ass-kicking fight, and she's only temporarily down for the count - we totally expect her to jump up again and reverse that trend, because she's been established as the Superhero Girl. So, while it's possible that the comics scene we've been talking about will also resolve in a save-herself scenario (and I should hope so), but I've gotta wonder if Buffy "loving herself" is where we're going with this. And haven't we already been to that place in the show a couple of times already?

*g* It's not really a side, just my personal grousings about what I want to see (or not) in a story about a female superhero. Anyone call always reply to my arguments with "well, that's not what Joss wants to do with the character," to which I can only say, "well, yes, but that may not be what I want to see."

I like reading other people's thoughts. :) And I can't make up my mind as to what exactly I think myself, because there's just not *enough*...

Well I LOVE Angel, think Andrew is very funny (as is TGiQ) and cope well enough with Riley, even if he is rather bland.

So if she saves herself it's boring because we've seen that so many times before and if she doesn't it's an outrageous strike against comic-book feminism?

In WttH she'd been set up as the heroine for one episode, and an episode that famously began by completely subverting its apparent set up. In the comic, which is surely aimed at people with at least some familiarity with the show, she's been set up as the heroine for seven seasons, she's rallied from death, boyfrends, madness, sorcery, depression, sickness, love, despair and terminally bad home perms. Surely the only question once the intial shock is passed is how she's going to escape this predicament and kick zombie ass not whether.

Okay, I think now we're getting into the territory of you telling me that I'm not a big enough Buffy fan, and that's a dead argument. I have issues with things I've spelled out pretty clearly, and beyond that I think it's coming down to this may not be the story I care to see, and obviously you feel differently. My feminist issues are not something I'm going to revise based on how much faith I am or not supposed to have in Joss - if he pulls it out in the next issue, great. I'm saying that at this moment, I'm not loving the picture of Buffy we've been left with. That's my critique.

Thank you! And who am I to turn down such a flattering request?

Here you go:

Yes, I happened to have Photoshop open when I tabbed over and saw your comment :)

I'm sorry if I gave the impression any personal slight was intended. Raised by wolves. Argumentative wolves. All I'm questioning is whether the particular interpretation of what we've been left with that you're not loving is the only possible one.

I'm sure it's not the only interpretation - as I've said before, I think it's likely that this is a setup bound to be reversed later. My gripe is in the issue to issue timing, and the fact that in order to get a typical "episode," we apparently have to sit through a lot of images of Buffy, and the other women, not being shown as particularly empowered. As a whole story, I'm sure it'll come across differently... but that doesn't help my reaction to what I see now.

Ironically - and I think someone's pointed this out above - Andrew's blather about Lando's outfit in Empire Strikes Back is all about judging by appearances, but I'm still not sure what I'm supposed to draw from that one, because isn't the point there that Andrew thinks Lando didn't look cool, while I'm fairly sure that the filmmakers felt that he did look cool in that movie.

I definitely think you have something when you say that the end of issue 4 will hopefully have Buffy the Hero, etc especially when I read today that Joss won't actually be writing all the story arcs, but will be writing the first four comics, the last four comics, and some other batches of four along the way.

Thank you for collecting all these links in one handy post! I'm afraid that my review can be summed up in the phrase - "his head fell off!"

Aww very kind of you, especially since I know nothing about how to use photoshop. :)

I definitely think you have something when you say that the end of issue 4 will hopefully have Buffy the Hero
It will all be in 4 episode arcs apparently, but with a longer arc going through (I think the next one - issue 5-8 - will be Faith centric). And Buffy will probably fight her way out of the nightmare somehow.

I'm afraid that my review can be summed up in the phrase - "his head fell off!"
Hee! :D

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