elisi | Telly watching

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Telly watching

Feel I ought to write something, so here goes.

Watched 'Legend of the Sea Devils'. Spoilers under cut.

As with most things Chibnall, it was just sort of... there. Things happened. I don't really remember much. I think it was quite pretty?

Re. Thasmin, then (imho) Liz Sandifer hit the nail on the head:

I understand there are people for whom the way the Doctor/Yaz relationship was handled is exactly the queer representation they wanted, and they need to want better things.
— Elizabeth Sandifer (@ElSandifer) April 17, 2022

I don't think it's queer baiting. No, it was simply just an afterthought. I'm not guessing, here are some quotes from Matt Strevens (the producer, apparently. I am SO out of touch.)

"I didn't know what Thasmin was" - Matt Strevens (x)

"Jodie said after the first season, oh there's speculation out there, but we hadn't really thought about it."

Matt Strevens confirms #Thasmin WAS NOT PLANNED at #gally1 (x)

I also came across this review on youtube. Fairly decent and balanced, but when he started talking about Thasmin (at 7:40) he pointed something out that I hadn't really thought about (because Chibnall Who really doesn't stick in my brain, like at all) - you should watch, he talks about a lot of stuff, but the main thing that struck me was him pointing out the fact that Yaz & Thirteen quite simply don't ACT like a couple in love (see Ten & Rose for the optimum example), or even like a couple that are deeply attracted but hesitant to say anything.

(Thirteen brought up River, which was... um, not the best comparison. He lit up whenever she appeared. They flirted to the point of indecency. They practically danced around each other, whether arguing or saving the day.)

I think the Doctor likes Yasmin. The Doctor has always had a thing for smart young (human) women, that is her TYPE. (I remember It Takes You Away in S1 - the one with the frog - had lovely 13/Yaz interactions, which very much confirmed 'Yes, the Doctor likes young women best.') But in this case, not romantically. Mostly then this is very accurate (and very brutal), but I still laughed. I feel bad, but...

In short (and imho) is not the LGBTQ+ representation you are looking for. They did the best with what they had - a Doctor incapable of communicating or talking about her emotions, and a companion in denial about her crush and never really managing to stand up to the Doctor.

(Imagine Thirteen with, idk, Clara? Or Amy. Or Donna. Or Martha. Someone to push back. Goodness, what a different show it would have been.)

~

ANYWAY. Onto GOOD and WONDERFUL representation. I watched Our Flag Means Death which is exactly as delightful and enjoyable as everyone said.

There is a lovely article here:

How Our Flag Means Death’s creator made a period romance disguised as a pirate comedy
David Jenkins opens up about everyone’s favorite queer pirate show
^MANY MANY SPOILERS

And

such_heights has a vid:

Bohemian Like You
summary: No I haven't heard your band, 'cause you guys are pretty new.

All I can really say is: Watch it! ♥ ♥ ♥

~

Sidebar: Amazing Good Omens icons here by

magnavox_23 who is incredibly talented.

~

What else? Oh yes. Then we binged the first three episodes of S2 of Russian Doll and ohmygodilovethisshowsomuch

I don't think I ever wrote about S1, partly because it was simply so perfect that I had nothing to say. S2 looks like it's equally inventive and SO CLEVER OMG (although going in a different kind of direction, no Groundhog Day this time). Partly I am just in awe of the ingenuity, but the other half of me just adores all the characters to tiny tiny pieces and I simply just want to spend more time with them. I'd watch them read the phone book, they're that wonderful and complex and real.

It's sort of... the opposite of Chibnall Who.

ETA: Watched episode 4, and it's just so gooood. Crazy, crazy clever and inventive, as well as just crazy. It all just runs off the sheer chaos energy that is Nadia.

Thought: There must be cross-over fic with Doctor Who. Esp since Nadia is probably one of the few people who a) could understand what the Doctor is on about (like, the science) and b) is more chaotic than the Doctor. Ye gods, the sparks would fly. <3

(In OFMD world, Ed would love her. She would make Stede very nervous.)

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Oh - Russian Doll is on my list - my list is too long!!!!

I was very ‘meh’ about DW. I’m looking forward to the next incarnation.

Oh - Russian Doll is on my list - my list is too long!!!!
I know that feeling! However, make sure you have time to watch when you do get to it. Back when S1 came out, Darcy randomly decided to check it out and ended up watching the whole show, not getting to bed until like 2am or later. It absolutely pulls you in. <3

I was very ‘meh’ about DW. I’m looking forward to the next incarnation.
Me too! I might not like it, but at least I won't be bored!

As with most things Chibnall, it was just sort of... there. Things happened. I don't really remember much. I think it was quite pretty?

This was 100% exactly my reaction, and part of me is sort of relieved to hear you say that, because everyone I've seen talking about it seems to have appreciated it at least somewhat more than I did, and there are moments where I start to wonder if it's just me.

As for the Thasmin, on a character level, I'm actually glad things went the way they did, in large part precisely because while I see a lot of love and appreciation between the two of them, it felt to me, on the Doctor's part, very much like the same love and appreciation she's always felt for the companions she's really liked. They're all the Doctor's favorite people when they're around, so the idea of her basically saying, well, if I were going to do that sort of thing with my human companions, sure, it would be with my current favorite person, but it's still not happening... Yeah, I was good with that. Relieved, even, if I'm honest, as someone who's never been entirely comfortable with the idea of shipping the Doctor in a serious way with regular old humans. (River, to my mind, does not really qualify in that category, and Thirteen/River would be welcome and delightful.)

But as any sort of, "Here, have some queer representation!", though, it seems like... Let's say a largely pointless exercise. To whatever extent it was an exercise at all, that is. "Afterthought" does seem to sum it up pretty well.

And one day I will watch this pirate show literally every person in the entire universe currently seems to be gushing about, but I'm not sure when that will be, as whichever streaming service it's one, it's not one I have. (I could mutter and grumble and rant about this particular subject, but I'll spare you. :))

I do have Netflix, though, so I'm hoping to get to S2 of Russian Doll very soon.

Also, those are some amazing GO icons!

This was 100% exactly my reaction, and part of me is sort of relieved to hear you say that, because everyone I've seen talking about it seems to have appreciated it at least somewhat more than I did, and there are moments where I start to wonder if it's just me.
Oh no. *g* You should friend

owlboy. They have good takes and spaces for talking.

I went looking for others' takes, mostly because I'm so tired of being negative, and it's good to see that others are enjoying it? Also, I came across this little thread (also by Liz Sandifer) and yeah. (I don't want to be mean about people who like it, but I just don't understand WHY. It's not AWFUL, there's just not a lot there.)

it felt to me, on the Doctor's part, very much like the same love and appreciation she's always felt for the companions she's really liked. They're all the Doctor's favorite people when they're around, so the idea of her basically saying, well, if I were going to do that sort of thing with my human companions, sure, it would be with my current favorite person, but it's still not happening... Yeah, I was good with that.
Yes, agreed. That a very good summary, thank you.

Relieved, even, if I'm honest, as someone who's never been entirely comfortable with the idea of shipping the Doctor in a serious way with regular old humans.
Oh lord me too. Doctor/Companion - Just Say No. The power imbalance is... not good. I'm sure I wrote about it at some point. And I made a distinction between companions (who are entirely dependent on the Doctor) and humans who are powerful within their own world (say... Liz I).

(River, to my mind, does not really qualify in that category, and Thirteen/River would be welcome and delightful.)
River is the Doctor's equal, which is one of the reasons I love them so much. And don't tempt me with River/Thirteen, because that would mean SOMEONE STANDING UP TO HER and I can't. It makes me sad.

But as any sort of, "Here, have some queer representation!", though, it seems like... Let's say a largely pointless exercise. To whatever extent it was an exercise at all, that is. "Afterthought" does seem to sum it up pretty well.
Which is a shame, but then that sort of follows from everything else of Chibnall's. Ah well, there are other [queer] shows.

And one day I will watch this pirate show literally every person in the entire universe currently seems to be gushing about, but I'm not sure when that will be, as whichever streaming service it's one, it's not one I have.
It's on (thinks) HBO Max? (Which I don't have either. But then, it's a PIRATE show...)

I do have Netflix, though, so I'm hoping to get to S2 of Russian Doll very soon.
*cries about it* I just sort of want to live inside it. Also, why has Doctor Who never had a Jewish companion? This seems an oversight. Mind you, they'd need a Jewish writer.

Also, those are some amazing GO icons!
Aren't they just? I love the creator's work, and when they asked for commissions I got in there and said 'Good Omens pretty please?'

Also, I came across this little thread (also by Liz Sandifer) and yeah.

That's way judgier than I really want to be, though. I've come to accept that when people disagree about this stuff, it's often because they're just focusing on completely different things. I may have no idea what people are focusing on that makes them like some of these stories, but then I have no doubt they feel the same way about some of the stuff I've really liked. So... eh. At this point, I mostly just wish them joy of it, shrug my shoulders, and wait patiently for the weather to change.

Oh lord me too. Doctor/Companion - Just Say No. The power imbalance is... not good. I'm sure I wrote about it at some point. And I made a distinction between companions (who are entirely dependent on the Doctor) and humans who are powerful within their own world (say... Liz I).

I was thinking about what criteria I seem to have in my mind for what makes the idea of shipping the Doctor with someone acceptable vs. OH GOD, NO THANK YOU, and had (about three-quarters seriously?) decided that it involves 1) a lifespan of at least several centuries, and 2) independent access to time travel.

But, yeah, humans who aren't traveling with him and are powerful in their own space do feel like a different dynamic, too. Like, I'm okay with the idea of the Doctor maybe occasionally hooking up with Sarah Jane when she's on Earth living her own life and doing her own awesome stuff, and then being sent off on his way afterward while she gets on with things. Although I think that bit about being on his way feels important to me, too. I honestly think one of the reasons Doctor/River works is because, while they might travel together for a while offscreen or hang out for a couple of decades on Darillium, they were mostly just happily going about their own separate adventures most of the time. I just can't imagine the Doctor working as half of a more traditional couple than that.

Also, why has Doctor Who never had a Jewish companion? This seems an oversight. Mind you, they'd need a Jewish writer.

That is an excellent point. It seems like a massive oversight, really.

That's way judgier than I really want to be, though.
Oh yeah, the point was... (it's early, lemme see if I can get my brain working) No, it'll have to wait. I'm writing this while eating my breakfast, and I have many things to say and not enough time. I'll get back to this.

had (about three-quarters seriously?) decided that it involves 1) a lifespan of at least several centuries, and 2) independent access to time travel.
Interesting. I don't think I ever thought it through that deeply, but yes. Those two are the main power vectors. (Also, teenagers shouldn't hook up with anyone who's old enough to be their grandparent, never mind someone 1000+)

Like, I'm okay with the idea of the Doctor maybe occasionally hooking up with Sarah Jane when she's on Earth living her own life and doing her own awesome stuff, and then being sent off on his way afterward while she gets on with things.
Agreed.

I just can't imagine the Doctor working as half of a more traditional couple than that.
Perfect wife. <3 Well, she and/or the TARDIS. I generally refer people to my TWoRS meta. :)

That is an excellent point. It seems like a massive oversight, really.
Mostly I just imagine Nadia on the TARDIS and it's... incredible.

I'm writing this while eating my breakfast, and I have many things to say and not enough time. I'll get back to this.

LOL, no worries. I know all about the "trying to hurriedly do things online while eating breakfast" issue. :) And, eh, I think I do get the point, anyway, and even if the point-making is judgy in ways I'm really trying to avoid these days, that's not to say it's exactly wrong.

(Also, teenagers shouldn't hook up with anyone who's old enough to be their grandparent, never mind someone 1000+)

Yes, that too.

Perfect wife. <3 Well, she and/or the TARDIS.

Well, obviously the TARDIS is the exception to absolutely everything, being the one entity that the Doctor can be, is, and always will be permanently partnered with.

I generally refer people to my TWoRS meta. :)

I'm not sure if I've read that one before or not, but whether I have or not, I think I need to read that, um... When I've got time to sneak a look at it at work. (Hey, we're doing maintenance today, and I'll have to kill some take later somehow... :))

Mostly I just imagine Nadia on the TARDIS and it's... incredible.

I'm hoping to start S2 of that tonight. And now I'm remembering when, a million years ago on LJ, there was some sort of fic challenge for writing crossover characters as companions. That may be an idea in need of revival! Not that I'm going to be the one to do it...

LOL, no worries. I know all about the "trying to hurriedly do things online while eating breakfast" issue. :)
We have all been there! :)

But, I did want to write this down somewhere... What the tweet thread says (if rather rudely), is that the show isn't terrible. It's not bigoted, it tries hard for better representation (say what you will about The Timeless Child, but it changed the Doctor from Scion of Empire to exploited/abused girl of colour, and the final episode is starring FOUR women & two men), and the writing - although painfully average - it's generally aiming for fun and entertaining, even if there's no emotional investment.

Also it's interesting to note what people complain about? I've read/watched a few reviews, and they complain about different things! The youtube one above was annoyed because of an over-reliance on the sonic. Another one thought it looked terrible (??). My personal issues are that I'm not invested in the characters and the stories have no emotional payoff.

There was an article once upon a time called 'Your Friends Are Not Watching the Same Show You Are (And That's Okay)?' (now gone to the great 404 in the cloud), but it made the point that everyone sees something different. By the same token, then everyone *misses* different things if they are not present. And I guess that Chibnall Who just misses MORE things than any other [modern] era.

These were some thoughts. Hope you enjoyed my rambling.

I'm not sure if I've read that one before or not, but whether I have or not, I think I need to read that, um... When I've got time to sneak a look at it at work. (Hey, we're doing maintenance today, and I'll have to kill some take later somehow... :))
It cause me to be Tumblr famous for like 15 minutes! But I'll take it. I think it's the happiest post I have ever written.

I'm hoping to start S2 of that tonight.
Yay! And it's a perfect example of amazing characters AND amazing plot/world building. To the point where I realised that I honestly didn't care if the plot this time turned out to be terrible, because I just loved them all SO MUCH. My HEART.

And now I'm remembering when, a million years ago on LJ, there was some sort of fic challenge for writing crossover characters as companions. That may be an idea in need of revival! Not that I'm going to be the one to do it...
Yeah that rings a bell. And ditto, I don't think I'd dare.

What the tweet thread says (if rather rudely), is that the show isn't terrible. It's not bigoted, it tries hard for better representation

Yeah. And it's true. Although it some ways maybe it just adds more to my disappointment that I really do think the show's heart is in the right place and that it's doing a lot of things I actually do appreciate, and yet I still can't like it more than I do. It's kind of funny, really. I remember how for ages I was so nervous about the idea of a female Doctor because there were so many possible ways for the show to fuck that up, or for it to take an approach that would just piss me off. And what Chibnall did with that was great! It really was. I have zero complaints, and the whole thing was handled absolutely the way I wanted, and if you'd told Past Me that, I'd have been over the moon and giddy with excitement about seeing this new era of the show. And instead, here I am with a great big heap of "meh."

My personal issues are that I'm not invested in the characters and the stories have no emotional payoff.

It is interesting that everyone has different complaints. I'm not even sure what that means. My own major complaint is that the stories just aren't interesting to me, and that more often then not I'm left with the distinct feeling that they reach a point where Chibnall is looking at the clock and going, "Whoops, almost the end of the episode, well, OK, then the Doctor does something vague and the bad guy just goes away somehow, who cares, really, THE END!" Which really does a number on my suspension of disbelief and my ability to get emotionally invested in anything. If I don't feel like the writer cares about what's going on in the story, why should I care?

(Well, that and my own very personal issues with the Timeless Child thing, but that's a whole other kettle of worms.)

There was an article once upon a time called 'Your Friends Are Not Watching the Same Show You Are (And That's Okay)?'

That rings a bell. And I remember waaaaaay back in my Blake's 7 days -- and this phrasing tells you just how long ago that was -- people used to say that we all got issued with a different set of tapes.

By the same token, then everyone *misses* different things if they are not present. And I guess that Chibnall Who just misses MORE things than any other [modern] era.

Oh, god, maybe that does sum it up.

These were some thoughts. Hope you enjoyed my rambling.

Always!

It cause me to be Tumblr famous for like 15 minutes! But I'll take it. I think it's the happiest post I have ever written.

I did look at it, and I admit to kind of just skimming parts of it, because, yes, that was some impressive output. :) But I'd say it deserves the 15 minutes of Tumblr fame, because there are some interesting insights there, and that it did leave me feeling some warm and fuzzy "Awww, River love!" kinds of feelings. Awwwwww.

I'm hoping to start S2 of that tonight.
Yay!

Except it turns out it might be tomorrow. Still! Very soon!

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