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And now for something completely different
Partly just to prove that I am actually watching Classic Who and have Opinions...
As I have explained previusly, I am watching backwards, by Doctor. I find this a very good way of acclimatising myself to the slower pace (Seven's stories are paced quite similar to modern TV, and then it gets slower as you get further back), and it really helps to follow a TARDIS team and see how they grow & develop. Watching random 'good episodes' never managed to make me invested enough to watch more, but this has worked a treat! (Even the dull/annoying episodes are worth it when you care about the characters.)
I have now done Seven, Six and Five, and have just finished S12 (Four's first). And I luff them all very much. (I watched the movie years ago, and should probably watch it again, although I know that Eight is basically to be found in Big Finish...)
Anyway. Opinion time. :) With thanks to Promethia. (As always.)
*I know that line was from Revenge of the Cybermen, but it's too perfect not to use
As I have explained previusly, I am watching backwards, by Doctor. I find this a very good way of acclimatising myself to the slower pace (Seven's stories are paced quite similar to modern TV, and then it gets slower as you get further back), and it really helps to follow a TARDIS team and see how they grow & develop. Watching random 'good episodes' never managed to make me invested enough to watch more, but this has worked a treat! (Even the dull/annoying episodes are worth it when you care about the characters.)
I have now done Seven, Six and Five, and have just finished S12 (Four's first). And I luff them all very much. (I watched the movie years ago, and should probably watch it again, although I know that Eight is basically to be found in Big Finish...)
Anyway. Opinion time. :) With thanks to Promethia. (As always.)
Poll #21655 The Ark in Space...
Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 13
The Arc in Space was hella boring:
View Answers
1) Finally! Sombody admits it!
3 (23.1%)
2) It was just ok.
4 (30.8%)
3) It's overhyped but still good.
1 (7.7%)
4) You are wrong and I will tell you why in the comments.
1 (7.7%)
5) You are wrong and we are now mortal enemies.
2 (15.4%)
6) You have no idea how scary bubblewrap was for a six-year-old in 1975!
0 (0.0%)
7) I've never seen The Arc in Space.
1 (7.7%)
8) I don't know what's going on. I'm just here for the drama.
0 (0.0%)
9) Harry Sullivan is an imbecile.*
1 (7.7%)
*I know that line was from Revenge of the Cybermen, but it's too perfect not to use
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I'm glad you're enjoying your voyages though! And the characters are why we're all here anyway. It's not as if Classic Who fans are actually a lot of masochists who like to torture themselves with polystyrene rocks and bubble wrap; we do it for love.
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This was one of the only ones I'd seen before, but had forgotten about 95% of the plot, so it was almost new. And it just felt like wading through treacle. So - since I know it's well-beloved - I presumed that for some people it was comfort viwing (or similar) and just curious.
it's a good one with a notable design, a good script, a scary monster, joyfully unconvincing bubblewrap, and Four, Sarah and Harry at their most adorable together.
See I can appreciate all these (and noted all these points whilst watching) and yet I found it nigh-on impossible to watch. I can't pinpoint why.
Also it's only four episodes anyway, and it's not Revenge of the Cybermen, always a good thing.
VERY TRUE.
This might just be one of those times where I - despite my Pollyanna tendencies - simply differ wildly from general fandom opinion. Much like how everyone loved Midnight, and I didn't.
I'm glad you're enjoying your voyages though! And the characters are why we're all here anyway. It's not as if Classic Who fans are actually a lot of masochists who like to torture themselves with polystyrene rocks and bubble wrap; we do it for love.
Yes, but why the love??? Genesis of the Daleks is amazing, hands down, and I generally understand why the wellknown classic episodes are beloved (although there were several - Kinda & Enlightenment most specifically - that I had never heard of and that were absolutely sublime!), but now and again I just sit there scratching my head.
(Ditto with Caves of Androzani. Like, I appreciate what it does, and it does it very well, but it was a trial to watch.)
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I meant the whole show, not Ark specifically! We watch all this for love. It's maybe kind of tragic, but also fun. :-D
And as to Ark, I don't know - just if I wanted a Four, Sarah & Harry, I'd watch this or Terror of the Autons and if I wanted to watch a S12 serial out of order (I tend to rewatch in order myself), it'd probably be this one. It isn't my favourite or anything, but I can't answer for anyone else. My reasons are as they are above, and I'm a little puzzled that'd be the one to get so much hate.
You haven't been moving in the right circles, though, if you hadn't heard of Kinda, as it's frequently listed as a top episode all around - and I'd agree! (Enlightenment goes under the radar more, probably because of Mawdryn Undead & Terminus, but I love it & I'm not alone!)
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Sorry, clearly not got my reading comprehension worked out yet. ;)
if I wanted a Four, Sarah & Harry, I'd watch this or Terror of the Autons
I presume you mean Zygons? (I just watched that one yesterday and tore through it, thought it was great!)
if I wanted to watch a S12 serial out of order (I tend to rewatch in order myself), it'd probably be this one. It isn't my favourite or anything, but I can't answer for anyone else. My reasons are as they are above, and I'm a little puzzled that'd be the one to get so much hate.
Hate? I don't hate it (and it's generally held up as a fan favourite, I think both Moffat & RTD say it's one of their top picks) so I was mostly puzzled as to why my opinion differed so much... Like you say, it has many great elements, it just failed to engage me.
You haven't been moving in the right circles, though, if you hadn't heard of Kinda, as it's frequently listed as a top episode all around - and I'd agree!
Well, that's good. :)
Enlightenment goes under the radar more, probably because of Mawdryn Undead & Terminus, but I love it & I'm not alone!
I'd say S20 is one of the best run of episodes in Classic Who!
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LOL, yes. Terror of the Autons is fun, too, but does not contain any Four, Sarah or Harry. /o\ (I'm a bit tired, I expect I'm not entirely making sense.)
so I was mostly puzzled as to why my opinion differed so much... Like you say, it has many great elements, it just failed to engage me.
I have ones like that, too. I just get bored with The Pirate Planet and with The Face of Evil, even though I like both Chris Boucher and Douglas Adams's stories, and a lot of people I know love them, and there's a lot in them I normally would love... and yet I just find them rather ploddy (though okay). The Sun Makers, too. It's always a bit puzzling when it happens, but I think it comes to all of us. And is even more annoying when it's supposed to be a classic.
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No worries! I'm surprised anyone can keep them all straight in their head...
and a lot of people I know love them, and there's a lot in them I normally would love... and yet I just find them rather ploddy (though okay). The Sun Makers, too. It's always a bit puzzling when it happens, but I think it comes to all of us. And is even more annoying when it's supposed to be a classic.
This, basically. Hence the poll and hopefully starting some discussions. :)
Plus there's stuff like Everyone Hates Adric, but I found him FINE. I mean, a very realistically portrayed teenage boy, but the issues are with having a 14-15 year old companion, not him. I'd expected him to be like nails on a blackboard, but nope. (Much prefer the natural bickering of Five's ducklings to Thirteen's terribly nice & passive lot - gimme some conflict, that I can work with!)
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Is he supposed to be that young? I always assumed he was 16/17. Whatever, I haven't forgiven him for how terrible he was in Castrovalva. My first Five story, and there was Adric, and he was awful. (Nobody had told me we hated Adric back then; I was all innocent still. I'd liked him in the books just fine, but the reality was a definite disappointment. I like all the bickering, and he's definitely better in most of his other episodes, but teenage me is still resentful, lol. Poor Adric. Now we'll never know if he was right!)
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He seemed 14-15, but that's entirely my impression, not based on anything.
Whatever, I haven't forgiven him for how terrible he was in Castrovalva. My first Five story, and there was Adric, and he was awful.
Awwww. But he was kidnapped by the Master and basically tortured. *pets Adric* (See how I like to fly in the face of conventional wisdom? I like Adric, but not The Ark in Space...)
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Let us agree to disagree loudly and at length, the only true received fan wisdom of our elders of Gallifrey! :lol:
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That makes a lot of sense.
I seem to run into a lot more Adric fans these days, although this comes with it the peril of Adric shipping... :-D
... OK, that's just disturbing. Mostly because he is just a child. (That said, I have a HUGE soft spot for Peri/Six. I mean, it would never work and he is SO bad for her, but I think they genuinely care about each other.)
Let us agree to disagree loudly and at length, the only true received fan wisdom of our elders of Gallifrey! :lol:
Sonic screwdrivers at dawn? ;)
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(I haven't really got a strong opinion on Peri, I haven't seen so much of her yet. Just wanted to point out my thoughts re: the sketchiness or not thereof of the shipping.)
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The problems when it comes to Peri are very different. (And I presume people don't ship Doctor/Adric, that would just be... Ew. The Doctor is basically Adric's father-figure.) With Peri, her run highlights the issues with the power imbalance between the Doctor and the Companion.
I don't ship Doctor/Companion a lot, but when I do, oh, I do.
See I don't. Peri is sort of the odd one out, but it's partly because they spend 95% of their time arguing, so they feel very couple-y. OTOH the Doctor is sort of oblivious to her (as in, what she wants), even as he cares about her, so it's an odd one.
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Oh, I've seen that. Not a lot, but it's there. (You know, it's not a good idea to start anything involving fandom with "I presume people don't ship..." Usually they do.) I don't know who else they ship him with, haven't really looked. I've seen people mention shipping him with Nyssa, but that confuses me extremely much since I read her as being at least 3-4 years older and she's definitely way more mature, and at their ages that kind of age difference is pretty darn significant.
it's partly because they spend 95% of their time arguing, so they feel very couple-y.
... *blinks* .... I'm sorry, I've never understood that argument for saying people feel like a couple. How is arguing all the time couple-y? Maybe this is because I grew up in a family where my parents argued AÂ LOTÂ and loudly throughout my childhood until they divorced, and it was horrible and not even faintly romantic. And I'm basically still traumatized by this in my adult age (I'm struggling not to cry now, sorry for too much information and it's not your fault, bringing up that topic at all just does it to me, but it's one of the reasons I get really uncomfortable with this implication).
Another thing is probably the way in my childhood and teens, adults would always imply that if a boy and a girl had any disagreements or fight, it had to be because there was a romantic vibe between them, and I a) got bullied severely by some boys who were definitely NOTÂ into me, and b) am not that into non-fictional men; so the argument always feels connected to undermining my very real problems as well as my consent and feelings.
I know it's a popular trope, but it makes me extremely uncomfortable for real-life reasons and therefore I don't like it when people say that as a given, that arguing=romance and of course everyone agrees.
Sorry for going off on a tangent, I guess I've just seen that argument too many times by now and couldn't stay silent.
Frankly for what I've seen Six and Peri remind me more of siblings, because communicating mostly with snark is totally what siblings do. But I haven't seen enough of that era to comment more on their dynamic, and I haven't got much of a grip on Peri's character yet.
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I get that. I don't think I actively ship them, but I have a leaning towards it sometimes - they have a very messed up but close dynamic and canon leaves it very unfinished. What are fans to do but write?
Actually, funny but true thing, there is a lot of Peri/Six (or Six and Peri) trope subversion fic out there! If you want a trope well and truly killed in DW fandom, you give it to Six and Peri. (Eight gets all the dancing and random marriages.)
Some Peri-fic, if you want it, which you may not -
Backspin - infiniteviking (which is gorgeous & the Doctor regaining Peri's trust in his new incarnation)
culumacilinte's two takes on the same prompt Gymnophoria: Take One & Take Two
Plus one of the trope subversions for them, re. sex pollen, Strain
(None of them is very long.)
Sonic screwdrivers at dawn?
It depends on whether we can agree that sonic screwdrivers are cool or if they're a tiresome plot device that should die. How about swords and sandwiches and then we can always just pass on the duel and eat the sandwiches instead? ;-)
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Indeed. (It was quite alarming to discover that I felt like that, I never ship Doctor/Companion. And it's not a ship ship, but... Well, one day I will write about Six and make a lot of parallels to Twelve & Clara.)
Actually, funny but true thing, there is a lot of Peri/Six (or Six and Peri) trope subversion fic out there! If you want a trope well and truly killed in DW fandom, you give it to Six and Peri. (Eight gets all the dancing and random marriages.)
LOL @ Eight! And interesting. I have never gone looking for fic, but thank you. And thank you for all the links, might check them out - I recognise a fair few names. :)
It depends on whether we can agree that sonic screwdrivers are cool or if they're a tiresome plot device that should die. How about swords and sandwiches and then we can always just pass on the duel and eat the sandwiches instead? ;-)
I was going to bring a laser... But that's probably just cheating. (Not saying no to swords though. <3333)
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So even if I found it dull, it would be worthwhile as this juggernaut of continuity and the foundations of the 40+ years of show that followed. <3
(Whereas you could get rid of Ark in Space and nothing would change.)
/I realise that you are probably being very tongue in cheek, but I have just watched Genesis and was impressed all over again. So twas an opportunity to draw hearts around it.
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Please to explain why.
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That is truth. Though I'm more willing to go along with it on this one since it does have some substance to it, unlike the other Baker six-parters that are just people running around. It would be better as four, though, naturally.
Also the Big Ethics Moment is being so good that you won't even kill Nazis, which is a terrible message that in any case it goes back on when the Doctor tries to kill them later on and fails.
I was really shocked to find out that this story is not at all what people say it is. Basically the Doctor has a great big waffle while history happens around him, and then he leaves and nothing he did actually mattered. Now, I do personally find that interesting, but it's nothing at all like what people talk about.
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You might be on to something there. Episode one is exactly the kind of thing I would eat up with a spoon if I were more attached to the characters (as a point of comparison, I looooooove the first half of Castrovalva where, arguably, nothing happens and they just poke around the TARDIS for awhile). But I far prefer Sarah and Four on their own and think Harry kind of ruins it, so . . .
(This poll came about because Elisi and I were both underwhelmed by this one, and I read/listened to one too many things in which it was declared a masterpiece, landmark episode, top ten, beloved of various modern showrunners, etc. I totally appreciate your reasoning, but completely scratching my head at the effusive praise I'm seeing elsewhere.)
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I can appreciate that, but I think, yes, I definitely love it because Four-Sarah-Harry are one of my favourite team!TARDISes (probably joint-honours with the also platonic-adorable Two-Jamie-Zoe in my books) and getting to amble round a deserted space station with them for 25 minutes suits me fine. I used to rewatch just episode 1 if I had the flu. That and the Guardian Trilogy, but that was mainly because I had it all together one one tape off the telly so it was my most convenient bit of Five.
Nyssa and Tegan do problem solving together alone is also pretty great, tho. :-D
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That's sort of what I was hinting at in Option 6 - the fact that it was probably revolutionary at the time, whereas now we know all the tropes. So I am fully prepared to be impressed with it for what it did.
I can appreciate that, but I think, yes, I definitely love it because Four-Sarah-Harry are one of my favourite team!TARDISes (probably joint-honours with the also platonic-adorable Two-Jamie-Zoe in my books) and getting to amble round a deserted space station with them for 25 minutes suits me fine. I used to rewatch just episode 1 if I had the flu.
That I understand. They are your squishy. <3
That and the Guardian Trilogy, but that was mainly because I had it all together one one tape off the telly so it was my most convenient bit of Five.
Also an excellent choice!
Nyssa and Tegan do problem solving together alone is also pretty great, tho. :-D
They are SO CUTE!!
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Aaaaaahhhh. Ok, that does make some sense. Before I watched much of One through Three I was figuring this story must have cemented a particular format of Who episode and that was why it was so lauded, but having watched the earlier stuff now it didn't seem like it was anything really new? But I guess you're right on the body horror angle.
probably joint-honours with the also platonic-adorable Two-Jamie-Zoe in my books
! I just got done with them recently, and OH MY GOD ALL THEIR STUPID FACES <3 <3 <3 <3 They are too cute for this world.
getting to amble round a deserted space station with them for 25 minutes suits me fine. I used to rewatch just episode 1 if I had the flu. That and the Guardian Trilogy, but that was mainly because I had it all together one one tape off the telly so it was my most convenient bit of Five.
Awww <3 You're making me feel nostalgic. I haven't watched any of this before this year, but I feel nostalgic anyway.
Nyssa and Tegan do problem solving together alone is also pretty great, tho. :-D
They're so determined!
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They are! I'm glad you liked them. Wee adorable trio that they are. And the Doctor is almost as clever as Zoe! <3
And, as to Ark, yes, I think it's about tone, and also while base-under-siege had been going strong since The Tenth Planet, it wasn't done so much at all during Three's era, and if you were watching in real time (as people like Moffat et al were) that was a lot of years of UNIT, and then the first real tonal shift to the horror-gimmick of Holmes & Hinchcliffe comes with Ark in Space, because Robot is still very much UNIT shenanigans with a new Doctor. (I mean, I was of the in between generation who just had to read Target novelisations and then watch things at random as I could get my hands on them by whatever method, so I can't comment personally, but I think that's probably part of why it had an impact. As a random watcher, I just thought it was a pretty strong one, individually, and I liked it.)
They're so determined!
Bless them.