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And now for something completely different
Partly just to prove that I am actually watching Classic Who and have Opinions...
As I have explained previusly, I am watching backwards, by Doctor. I find this a very good way of acclimatising myself to the slower pace (Seven's stories are paced quite similar to modern TV, and then it gets slower as you get further back), and it really helps to follow a TARDIS team and see how they grow & develop. Watching random 'good episodes' never managed to make me invested enough to watch more, but this has worked a treat! (Even the dull/annoying episodes are worth it when you care about the characters.)
I have now done Seven, Six and Five, and have just finished S12 (Four's first). And I luff them all very much. (I watched the movie years ago, and should probably watch it again, although I know that Eight is basically to be found in Big Finish...)
Anyway. Opinion time. :) With thanks to Promethia. (As always.)
*I know that line was from Revenge of the Cybermen, but it's too perfect not to use
As I have explained previusly, I am watching backwards, by Doctor. I find this a very good way of acclimatising myself to the slower pace (Seven's stories are paced quite similar to modern TV, and then it gets slower as you get further back), and it really helps to follow a TARDIS team and see how they grow & develop. Watching random 'good episodes' never managed to make me invested enough to watch more, but this has worked a treat! (Even the dull/annoying episodes are worth it when you care about the characters.)
I have now done Seven, Six and Five, and have just finished S12 (Four's first). And I luff them all very much. (I watched the movie years ago, and should probably watch it again, although I know that Eight is basically to be found in Big Finish...)
Anyway. Opinion time. :) With thanks to Promethia. (As always.)
Poll #21655 The Ark in Space...
Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 13
The Arc in Space was hella boring:
View Answers
1) Finally! Sombody admits it!
3 (23.1%)
2) It was just ok.
4 (30.8%)
3) It's overhyped but still good.
1 (7.7%)
4) You are wrong and I will tell you why in the comments.
1 (7.7%)
5) You are wrong and we are now mortal enemies.
2 (15.4%)
6) You have no idea how scary bubblewrap was for a six-year-old in 1975!
0 (0.0%)
7) I've never seen The Arc in Space.
1 (7.7%)
8) I don't know what's going on. I'm just here for the drama.
0 (0.0%)
9) Harry Sullivan is an imbecile.*
1 (7.7%)
*I know that line was from Revenge of the Cybermen, but it's too perfect not to use
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I meant the whole show, not Ark specifically! We watch all this for love. It's maybe kind of tragic, but also fun. :-D
And as to Ark, I don't know - just if I wanted a Four, Sarah & Harry, I'd watch this or Terror of the Autons and if I wanted to watch a S12 serial out of order (I tend to rewatch in order myself), it'd probably be this one. It isn't my favourite or anything, but I can't answer for anyone else. My reasons are as they are above, and I'm a little puzzled that'd be the one to get so much hate.
You haven't been moving in the right circles, though, if you hadn't heard of Kinda, as it's frequently listed as a top episode all around - and I'd agree! (Enlightenment goes under the radar more, probably because of Mawdryn Undead & Terminus, but I love it & I'm not alone!)
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Sorry, clearly not got my reading comprehension worked out yet. ;)
if I wanted a Four, Sarah & Harry, I'd watch this or Terror of the Autons
I presume you mean Zygons? (I just watched that one yesterday and tore through it, thought it was great!)
if I wanted to watch a S12 serial out of order (I tend to rewatch in order myself), it'd probably be this one. It isn't my favourite or anything, but I can't answer for anyone else. My reasons are as they are above, and I'm a little puzzled that'd be the one to get so much hate.
Hate? I don't hate it (and it's generally held up as a fan favourite, I think both Moffat & RTD say it's one of their top picks) so I was mostly puzzled as to why my opinion differed so much... Like you say, it has many great elements, it just failed to engage me.
You haven't been moving in the right circles, though, if you hadn't heard of Kinda, as it's frequently listed as a top episode all around - and I'd agree!
Well, that's good. :)
Enlightenment goes under the radar more, probably because of Mawdryn Undead & Terminus, but I love it & I'm not alone!
I'd say S20 is one of the best run of episodes in Classic Who!
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LOL, yes. Terror of the Autons is fun, too, but does not contain any Four, Sarah or Harry. /o\ (I'm a bit tired, I expect I'm not entirely making sense.)
so I was mostly puzzled as to why my opinion differed so much... Like you say, it has many great elements, it just failed to engage me.
I have ones like that, too. I just get bored with The Pirate Planet and with The Face of Evil, even though I like both Chris Boucher and Douglas Adams's stories, and a lot of people I know love them, and there's a lot in them I normally would love... and yet I just find them rather ploddy (though okay). The Sun Makers, too. It's always a bit puzzling when it happens, but I think it comes to all of us. And is even more annoying when it's supposed to be a classic.
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No worries! I'm surprised anyone can keep them all straight in their head...
and a lot of people I know love them, and there's a lot in them I normally would love... and yet I just find them rather ploddy (though okay). The Sun Makers, too. It's always a bit puzzling when it happens, but I think it comes to all of us. And is even more annoying when it's supposed to be a classic.
This, basically. Hence the poll and hopefully starting some discussions. :)
Plus there's stuff like Everyone Hates Adric, but I found him FINE. I mean, a very realistically portrayed teenage boy, but the issues are with having a 14-15 year old companion, not him. I'd expected him to be like nails on a blackboard, but nope. (Much prefer the natural bickering of Five's ducklings to Thirteen's terribly nice & passive lot - gimme some conflict, that I can work with!)
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Is he supposed to be that young? I always assumed he was 16/17. Whatever, I haven't forgiven him for how terrible he was in Castrovalva. My first Five story, and there was Adric, and he was awful. (Nobody had told me we hated Adric back then; I was all innocent still. I'd liked him in the books just fine, but the reality was a definite disappointment. I like all the bickering, and he's definitely better in most of his other episodes, but teenage me is still resentful, lol. Poor Adric. Now we'll never know if he was right!)
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He seemed 14-15, but that's entirely my impression, not based on anything.
Whatever, I haven't forgiven him for how terrible he was in Castrovalva. My first Five story, and there was Adric, and he was awful.
Awwww. But he was kidnapped by the Master and basically tortured. *pets Adric* (See how I like to fly in the face of conventional wisdom? I like Adric, but not The Ark in Space...)
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Let us agree to disagree loudly and at length, the only true received fan wisdom of our elders of Gallifrey! :lol:
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That makes a lot of sense.
I seem to run into a lot more Adric fans these days, although this comes with it the peril of Adric shipping... :-D
... OK, that's just disturbing. Mostly because he is just a child. (That said, I have a HUGE soft spot for Peri/Six. I mean, it would never work and he is SO bad for her, but I think they genuinely care about each other.)
Let us agree to disagree loudly and at length, the only true received fan wisdom of our elders of Gallifrey! :lol:
Sonic screwdrivers at dawn? ;)
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(I haven't really got a strong opinion on Peri, I haven't seen so much of her yet. Just wanted to point out my thoughts re: the sketchiness or not thereof of the shipping.)
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The problems when it comes to Peri are very different. (And I presume people don't ship Doctor/Adric, that would just be... Ew. The Doctor is basically Adric's father-figure.) With Peri, her run highlights the issues with the power imbalance between the Doctor and the Companion.
I don't ship Doctor/Companion a lot, but when I do, oh, I do.
See I don't. Peri is sort of the odd one out, but it's partly because they spend 95% of their time arguing, so they feel very couple-y. OTOH the Doctor is sort of oblivious to her (as in, what she wants), even as he cares about her, so it's an odd one.
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Oh, I've seen that. Not a lot, but it's there. (You know, it's not a good idea to start anything involving fandom with "I presume people don't ship..." Usually they do.) I don't know who else they ship him with, haven't really looked. I've seen people mention shipping him with Nyssa, but that confuses me extremely much since I read her as being at least 3-4 years older and she's definitely way more mature, and at their ages that kind of age difference is pretty darn significant.
it's partly because they spend 95% of their time arguing, so they feel very couple-y.
... *blinks* .... I'm sorry, I've never understood that argument for saying people feel like a couple. How is arguing all the time couple-y? Maybe this is because I grew up in a family where my parents argued A LOT and loudly throughout my childhood until they divorced, and it was horrible and not even faintly romantic. And I'm basically still traumatized by this in my adult age (I'm struggling not to cry now, sorry for too much information and it's not your fault, bringing up that topic at all just does it to me, but it's one of the reasons I get really uncomfortable with this implication).
Another thing is probably the way in my childhood and teens, adults would always imply that if a boy and a girl had any disagreements or fight, it had to be because there was a romantic vibe between them, and I a) got bullied severely by some boys who were definitely NOT into me, and b) am not that into non-fictional men; so the argument always feels connected to undermining my very real problems as well as my consent and feelings.
I know it's a popular trope, but it makes me extremely uncomfortable for real-life reasons and therefore I don't like it when people say that as a given, that arguing=romance and of course everyone agrees.
Sorry for going off on a tangent, I guess I've just seen that argument too many times by now and couldn't stay silent.
Frankly for what I've seen Six and Peri remind me more of siblings, because communicating mostly with snark is totally what siblings do. But I haven't seen enough of that era to comment more on their dynamic, and I haven't got much of a grip on Peri's character yet.
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Very true. (I remember after the first episode of Torchwood aired, that within, oh 24 hours, there were two communities set up for Jack/the Doctor's hand. People will ship ANYTHING.)
I know it's a popular trope, but it makes me extremely uncomfortable for real-life reasons and therefore I don't like it when people say that as a given, that arguing=romance and of course everyone agrees. Sorry for going off on a tangent, I guess I've just seen that argument too many times by now and couldn't stay silent.
Sorry to hit a button, and well - like I said, Peri's run is VERY uncomfortable, and highlights a lot of ugly stuff. I don't think the Doctor ever sees her *remotely* in a romantic light, the vibe is sort of anti-romance. I guess the main question is why does Peri stay (since she isn't very happy), but then that highlights all sort of OTHER issues, so yeah, difficult era. It was more trying to work out any sort of reason for all the bickering, other than the writers are awful and don't like Peri.
Frankly for what I've seen Six and Peri remind me more of siblings, because communicating mostly with snark is totally what siblings do. But I haven't seen enough of that era to comment more on their dynamic, and I haven't got much of a grip on Peri's character yet.
Mostly, then I just keep saying 'poor Peri', cause she is so badly served. I'll mull over the sibling thing.
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I get that. I don't think I actively ship them, but I have a leaning towards it sometimes - they have a very messed up but close dynamic and canon leaves it very unfinished. What are fans to do but write?
Actually, funny but true thing, there is a lot of Peri/Six (or Six and Peri) trope subversion fic out there! If you want a trope well and truly killed in DW fandom, you give it to Six and Peri. (Eight gets all the dancing and random marriages.)
Some Peri-fic, if you want it, which you may not -
Backspin - infiniteviking (which is gorgeous & the Doctor regaining Peri's trust in his new incarnation)
culumacilinte's two takes on the same prompt Gymnophoria: Take One & Take Two
Plus one of the trope subversions for them, re. sex pollen, Strain
(None of them is very long.)
Sonic screwdrivers at dawn?
It depends on whether we can agree that sonic screwdrivers are cool or if they're a tiresome plot device that should die. How about swords and sandwiches and then we can always just pass on the duel and eat the sandwiches instead? ;-)
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Indeed. (It was quite alarming to discover that I felt like that, I never ship Doctor/Companion. And it's not a ship ship, but... Well, one day I will write about Six and make a lot of parallels to Twelve & Clara.)
Actually, funny but true thing, there is a lot of Peri/Six (or Six and Peri) trope subversion fic out there! If you want a trope well and truly killed in DW fandom, you give it to Six and Peri. (Eight gets all the dancing and random marriages.)
LOL @ Eight! And interesting. I have never gone looking for fic, but thank you. And thank you for all the links, might check them out - I recognise a fair few names. :)
It depends on whether we can agree that sonic screwdrivers are cool or if they're a tiresome plot device that should die. How about swords and sandwiches and then we can always just pass on the duel and eat the sandwiches instead? ;-)
I was going to bring a laser... But that's probably just cheating. (Not saying no to swords though. <3333)
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Yes, unasked-for life-saving going on with complicated feels in both, really. I would be very interested to read it! And, hey, shipping is just one sort of fannish what if and it's not as if it changes anything in canon. (The only time you need to worry is when you start thinking it should or attacking other people.) I'm not very romantic-OTP, especially in DW in canon, but I am always open for the possibilies in fanfic if someone can write it well, or I get a good prompt, and what else is fic for but to explore all the things we can't have in canon? ;-D
Also, sorry, I should have said Eight makes a lot of random proposals of marriage in fic. (There's even one where he proposes to every single companion! And, across all the media, Eight has a lot of companions.) I made some big rec sets for all of the Classic Who Doctors (save Three, Four, and Five, just because they have more fic and I never quite got round to tackling those mountains) and there were definitely some funny era-specific trends that weren't necessarily all that predictable.
(Not saying no to swords though. <3333)
That's fine, then, I'll just steal all the sandwiches. <3
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There is SO MUCH there. Like, Five literally dies for Peri (and Promethia and I tried to make a list of people the Doctor dies for - there's Rose and Wilf... and Peri). So she is incredibly precious to him, but as Six he is just useless at showing that. But. If someone threatens her he FREAKS OUT. (One of my favourite moments is in Mark of the Rani when Peri is stuck in the 'mine field' the Rani has created, and Six is all 'Go save her or I kill you!' And he means it 100%. That kinda thing is *really* effective. (Even if the Doctor/Peri dynamic is terribly problematic otherwise.) But I can draw straight lines from Six there and to Twelve pointing the gun at the general. ♥
And, hey, shipping is just one sort of fannish what if and it's not as if it changes anything in canon.
Very true. The usual Doctor/companion dynamic doesn't tend to do much for me (the Doctor needs an equal), but see above...
(The only time you need to worry is when you start thinking it should or attacking other people.)
As I usually say - if you can only lift yours up by putting others down, you need to think very carefully about what you're doing.
I'm not very romantic-OTP, especially in DW in canon, but I am always open for the possibilies in fanfic if someone can write it well, or I get a good prompt, and what else is fic for? ;-D
Bless fic. <3
Also, sorry, I should have said Eight makes a lot of random proposals of marriage in fic. (There's even one where he proposes to every single companion! And, across all the media, Eight has a lot of companions.)
Ha! That's hilarious.
I made some big rec sets for all of the Classic Who Doctors
A labour of love I'm sure.
That's fine, then, I'll just steal all the sandwiches. <3
Deal!
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Hello, yes, I would be interested in this.
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First Doctor
Second Doctor
Fourth Doctor
Sixth Doctor
Seventh Doctor
Eighth Doctor
Some of it relates to EU stuff, but everything like that should be clearly labelled so you can avoid spoilers, or just avoid.