elisi | Harvey Weinstein and Riley Finn

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Harvey Weinstein and Riley Finn

I've been meaning to write *something* about the whole Harvey Weinstein thing. There are a hundred things I could link you to. However, the thing that I can't get out of my head is this bit of dialogue from 'The Initiative' (slightly edited):

Parker: [Laughs] oh, yeah. The word is stamina. I mean, definitely a bunny in the sack, but later on, well. You know the difference between a freshman girl and a toilet seat? A toilet seat doesn't follow you around after you use it.

Riley decks Parker who hits the floor.

Riley: (Walking between Forrest and Graham.) I can't believe that I did that.

Forrest: What the hell for?

Riley: He--he was just being so crude.

Forrest: Please. You've heard me say much grosser things than that.

Riley: I just didn't like hearing him (he pauses thoughtfully) talk about Buffy that way. I think I... Well, I guess I like her.

I have said before that I think Riley Finn was a metaphor for male privilege (straight, white male privilege specifically) and this is the perfect example.

Riley is a nice guy. Decent. Works hard. Goes to church. Serves his country. And it's possible we're meant to cheer him on for decking Parker. But. The line that stands out is Forrest's:

You've heard me say much grosser things than that.

The only thing different is that Riley happens to like Buffy. The whole of the cold open is a lengthy frat-boy-ish objectification of women. And Riley never speaks up.

I wish they'd done more with him. I can't even tell if the metaphor was deliberate, or if they just took the most basic template possible to create him, and the metaphor was built in.

However, it's useful. (Also see Xander of course.) Because in creating him, they essentially made Buffy date the Patriarchy. And the Patriarchy couldn't hack it and ran away.

But... they never really made the Patriarchy face its issues. Maybe they couldn't. Maybe that would have been a step too far for Joss... (*SO* not surprised at his ex-wife's allegations.)

And so it goes. From the Weinsteins and the Trumps at the top, through the Whedons and the Gibsons right down to the guy on the bus who puts his hand on your knee.

Because all the Riley Finns in the world just laugh when their friends are crude.

Not because she's your sister, your mother, your daughter, your girlfriend. Because he is your brother, your father, your son, your friend.

(ETA: Much like white people need to tackle racism, and straight/cis people need to tackle LGBT+ bigotry.)

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I think that's a really good point. It fits in with the whole "As a father of daughters" thing - so many guys believe they need to have a specific personal connection to a particular woman to care. (I hope it's a lot of "Feeling like they need to explain their connection in order to justify why they care", but a lot of it sounds like "I only care because it might happen to my little girl!" Especially hearing it from guys like Ben Affleck immediately after learning they sexually harassed women they worked with.)

Also, the way "crude" and "misogynistic" were conflated. You can talk pretty graphically about sex without calling a woman a toilet seat.

I hope it's a lot of "Feeling like they need to explain their connection in order to justify why they care", but a lot of it sounds like "I only care because it might happen to my little girl!"
*nods a lot*

(Where is Twelve punching racists bigots when you need him?)

Also, the way "crude" and "misogynistic" were conflated. You can talk pretty graphically about sex without calling a woman a toilet seat.
It's such a nasty scene. :( And i genuinely can't tell if we're supposed to be congratulating Riley...

It's a very realistic portrayal of a certain kind of attitude, but contextually, it's pretty "Where are you going with this again?"

but contextually, it's pretty "Where are you going with this again?"
And the answer is 'Nowhere'. He flies off to South America because Buffy doesn't appreciate him enough... *deep sigh*

The one that gets me is Seth Macfarlane's'joke' at the Oscars a few years ago. Not being a fan of them I only saw it for the first time a few days ago. Everyone's calling it a joke; everyone, except possibly for Emma Stone who was standing next to him, laughed as if it were a nervous laughter enducing joke.

But look at his face. He's not joking at all. That man is so furious that he can barely contain his disgust that nothing is being done.

kerk

I've not come across that one (yet). Am now loath to go look it up... :(

Just over thirty seconds but it should be watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCNvREKTnQc From the 2013 Supporting Actress Oscar.

Aaah, that one. Yes, I had heard that. Just didn't remember where. But thank you.

And I think this is one of the main problems - people DID speak up. For years. There's a clip of Courtney Love from 2005... But people did nothing. :(

Courtney Love's acting career was pretty much killed because she spoke up; as have the careers of others who tried to speak up. Others just quit. *angry face emoji*

And so, the rest kept quiet. >:(

That episode is rather interesting...because it's really all about Spike.

And there's a scene in the middle of it that's played for laughs, and most fans read as a joke about male impotence, including the actor who performed the role.

Yet, watch that scene again from Willow's perspective. Spike saunters comes into her room, Buffy's not there, and he decides to attack Willow instead. But can't get it up, his head explodes. And they both have a chat about something being wrong with him. Willow even wonders if there's anything wrong with her -- and maybe it's her. The framing is an attempted college rape, with vampirism as the metaphor. Yet it's played as the poor guy couldn't get it up, and a joke about impotence.

Then when Buffy does come into the mix and fights off, not Spike but the Initiative trying to grab her and Spike...they refuse to acknowledge a woman fought them off. And the Initiative is run by female doctor, who is very masculine, controlling, and considered "mother".

So we start with Parker, and end with a far worse sexual predator Spike, with the dangerous frat-boy Initiative in between...and Forest later becomes part of Adam's monster squad.

Hmmm.

I don't think it's *about* Spike, so much as the fact that Spike is the most extreme expression of toxic masculinity. They're all part of the same issue, but Spike is the overt danger, the kinda guy people think of when they talk about 'rapists'. The one who'll attack a lone woman in a dark alley.

Like you say:

So we start with Parker, and end with a far worse sexual predator Spike, with the dangerous frat-boy Initiative in between...and Forest later becomes part of Adam's monster squad.

And everyone is SHOCKED when it turns out that the Initiative is actually creating monsters...

Actually, Skyfall tackles the same thing, and quite intelligently so. Javier Bardem's bad guy and Bond are both monstrous creations by 'their' mother. Ditto Adam & Riley.

(I had forgotten that the attempted attack of Willow was in that episode. Damn that's an unsettling scene. Because it's exactly what women do - they try to be friendly with their attacker, out of self-preservation.)

I've never understood why Willow (non-vampiric) & Spike is such a popular pairing. I can't think of one 'sexual' encounter where there isn't an overwhelming implication of rape.

Anyway, for you, I just discovered West Yorkshire has a 'national' flag :-)

https://britishcountyflags.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/west-riding-flag-design-a.jpg

kerk

I've never understood why Willow (non-vampiric) & Spike is such a popular pairing. I can't think of one 'sexual' encounter where there isn't an overwhelming implication of rape.
But that means he fancies her! It's a compliment and the perfect beginning... ;) (I think later Willow - after she becomes powerful & screws up - can work quite well. But they need to be balanced.)

And ta! I am now wondering if I've ever seen that flag before...

But later, stronger Willow has raped Tara twice; as wellas all her friends.

Pretty sure the price is too high.

Mind you this is all probably why I have such problems understanding paring Buffy with either Angel or Spike too.

I just don't, I mean I do (I fancy Spike & James Marsters both), but still it never stops bothering me that I just don't how to deal with that.

It also troubles me how long it took me to accept/realise what Willow did to Tara.

kerk

But later, stronger Willow has raped Tara twice; as wellas all her friends.
And shows how it's not about love, but power... :(

Mind you this is all probably why I have such problems understanding paring Buffy with either Angel or Spike too.
I think the important thing re. Spike is that he understood what he was doing, and actively went and changed himself. (Which shows more self-awareness than Riley.) To say they handled it badly is an understatement, but it is what it is, and we have to work with the story we got.

It also troubles me how long it took me to accept/realise what Willow did to Tara.
So much of this stuff is coded into being romantic. Heck, just look at Twilight - someone sneaking into a girl's bedroom to watch her sleep isn't romantic, he's a creepy, disturbing stalker.

It also troubles me how long it took me to accept/realise what Willow did to Tara.
So much of this stuff is coded into being romantic.

Yeah, it took me forever to realize Willow had raped Tara because I don't think the writers realized Willow had raped Tara.

Similarly, I'm not sure the writers realize how wrong it is that Riley only cares about people comparing women to toilet seats when it's a woman he's interested in.

Or that many of the things Xander did were wrong.

I'm all for showing flawed characters but when characters are flawed in a way that's generally celebrated or romanticized or trivialized by culture at large it can be really difficult to tell whether the author is condemning or endorsing it.

I'm all for showing flawed characters but when characters are flawed in a way that's generally celebrated or romanticized or trivialized by culture at large it can be really difficult to tell whether the author is condemning or endorsing it.
This. Especially because it's SO prevalent. Like - we put on Rush Hour 3 yesterday (not for long, it's awful), but one of the main characters is a traffic cop, two (young, attractive) women cause a crash, we are introduced to them by a loving shot of their backsides as they are lying over the bonnet of the car, handcuffed. And then he decides that if they come on a date with him & His mate he'll wave the charges.

Ugh.

I want someone to start a media project that's just taking fucked up scenes from movies and tv shows and playing them again, either from the other character's PoV where we can see how scared/ashamed/annoyed they are, or with a slightly different character who is not Just Totally Into This So It's All Okay.

Or just a complication, no commentary. Clip after clip after clip after clip. Women silenced, objectified, harassed or assaulted as a 'joke'.

Like Dylan Marron's Every Single Word.

Good call, yes. And I didn't remember the Spike & Willow scene was in the same episode either -- makes one realize how much has changed in the last decade, at least in terms of awareness and fandom discussion.

Yeah, I'd forgotten too... And the fact that things have changed is GOOD. I want to go watch the Buffy vs Edward Cullen vid now. Hope his behaviour will get smacked down for being stalker-y and horrible too.

YUP. I agree with this so hard.

Ta. It's been going round in my head for weeks. V glad to finally have had the time to write it.

I have said before that I think Riley Finn was a metaphor for male privilege (straight, white male privilege specifically) This sentence has a lot of truth to it and has made me realize why I disliked Riley so much.

This also why actors like Ben Afleck spouting how disgusting Harvey's behavior was, is just as disgusting. How dare he? His brother has been accused of the same thing and there has been at least one person saying Ben groped her. If your closet isn't so clean, don't complain about someone else's closet.

This sentence has a lot of truth to it and has made me realize why I disliked Riley so much.
I have a vague memory of writing about it before, but don't think I ever did a proper essay. However, it fits entirely too well - the way he feels threatened by Buffy's strength, the way he can't seem to cope with not being the main character in the narrative, the way Xander steps in to talk him up... It's by far the best way to read the character.

If your closet isn't so clean, don't complain about someone else's closet.
This.

But... they never really made the Patriarchy face its issues. Maybe they couldn't. Maybe that would have been a step too far for Joss...

Yeah, they could acknowledge the issue but they could not actually deal with it. That would be admitting they were also at fault. The funny/sad thing is that just acknowledging the existence of patriarchy was so groundbreaking.

Anyway, as Emma Thompson said, Weinstein's hardly the only predator in Hollywood, he was just one of the most... efficient. But as soon as he stopped making money, the protection melted away, didn't it? (Did you see Emma's interview on Newsnight? AMAZING.)

The funny/sad thing is that just acknowledging the existence of patriarchy was so groundbreaking.
Aye... :(

I haven't watched Emma's interview (yet), but plan to. The woman is amazing.

Because all the Riley Finns in the world just laugh when their friends are crude.

Very true, and I'm afraid an awful lot of us are Riley Finns. Fortunately I don't have any Parkers or Forrests among my friends or acquaintances, but I am definitely guilty of not speaking out against people when I should have (or not speaking out strongly enough). I'm just not that brave :-(

but I am definitely guilty of not speaking out against people when I should have (or not speaking out strongly enough). I'm just not that brave :-(
Yeah, same here. I guess it's a step up from not realising that people are harmful in their behaviour - but it's difficult taking a stand.

Wow, until you mentioned that clip from Buffy i had totally forgotten it and of course you are so right.

It's a funny thing, because it's been years since I watched that episode. But something must have prompted my memories... It just fits entirely too well. :(

Huh. Interesting choice. Surely the more obvious topic to address here would have been the analogies between Weinstein and some of the recently revealed behaviors of Whedon?

I guess it was too obvious? Like, I was painfully unsurprised over the Whedon allegations. Just looking at his stories it was very clear where his interests lay. And I have not forgiven him for the Buffy spacefrak. That was the final straw. That man was not a feminist, no matter how much he talked the talk - his work betrayed him.

So I thought the work might be a more interesting place to start - especially Terribly Nice And Wholesome Riley Finn...

Really great observation. Sadly I think the writers did intend for Riley to come across as a good guy in that conversation, simply because he put Buffy specifically on a pedestal, and we’re meant to overlook the rest of it as typical guy talk

Alas, I think you're right. Which is so very depressing (but not at all surprising.)

I'd forgotten that Riley decked Parker. Well, he deserved to be punched. But you are absolutely right: guys giving other guys a pass, because they're your bro sucks.

Yes, straight/cis people need to tackle LGBT+ bigotry.

I'd forgotten that Riley decked Parker. Well, he deserved to be punched.
Oh yes. But there is just a lot more going on...

But you are absolutely right: guys giving other guys a pass, because they're your bro sucks.
I just wish that it was deliberate writing, but I don't think it is. :(

Yes, straight/cis people need to tackle LGBT+ bigotry.
*sigh* The world makes me so tired.

The world makes me so tired.

I know - me too.

Surely at some point things will start to get better, right? right?

OK, I'll be over here in my corner writing fanfiction.

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Harvey Weinstein and Riley Finn

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