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Meta: The Name of the Doctor (it's not a ghost story, it's a love story)
First of all, you should all go read this:
Doctor Who: The Name Of The Doctor Review – 8 Ways Steven Moffat Defined The Heroine’s Journey
Because I won't be talking much about Clara, and that review does a beautiful job of explaining a lot of the ways I see her.
The one thing I will mention specifically is her importance as a mirror (opposite) to River:
- Melody Pond was the girl born to kill the Doctor, with no choice.
- Clara Oswald was the girl born to save the Doctor - entirely of her own choice.
Yes, she figured out that she had to do it because it had already happened, but time can be broken, as well we know. She had both the Doctor and River tell her no...
Yet she grasped her opportunity and leapt.
And re-wrote the Doctor.
Where River was warped around the Doctor (as were all the Ponds, and the show never shied away from showing the inherent problems), the Doctor is now warped around Clara. And she is in many ways the new Rose - the one to pull him out of the darkness, quite literally, after he lost everything... Not as a love interest (or rebound), but just as his Clara, his Impossible Girl. The Girl Who Saves Him.
Mind you, I'm now rather keen on having her meet Rose - seriously, just imagine it:
Clara: Oh my stars, you're Rose Tyler! The Bad Wolf! You killed all the Daleks!
Rose (pleased): He told you about me?
Clara (breezily, in her Clara way): Oh no, I was there.
However, I feel Clara's story is not done yet. Yes we know who she is, but it's not like River's story was over once we knew who she was. When it comes to Clara, I feel this was more like AGMGTW - it answered a lot of questions, but still left many unanswered. Why does the TARDIS not like her? Why does she keep being monster'd? What's with all the bird imagery?
Whereas the Ponds had a very specific role (new start, learning to live again, family, coming to terms with who he was now, all the fairy tale stuff), Clara has right from the beginning been tied to the Time War and his role as warrior - and helping him move on. River mirrored him in this, but the first thing Clara [/Oswin] did was erase him from the Daleks' memory, freeing him. She was the one to find the book of The Time War, and learning his name that way, before falling down the rabbit hole in the finale and learning it all...
Basically,![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
promethia_tenk summed up the whole thing in her vid: The New Age
However, all this involves reaching forward, trying to see where we are heading. And I can't see clearly. I'm guessing that Moffat will tackle the Time War head on, and through that help the Doctor to move forward. A clean slate for the 50th - that sounds about right.
But this episode was all about endings... And at this point we have reached the very end of A Christmas Carol:
AMY: It'll be their last day together, won't it?
DOCTOR: Everything has to end some time, otherwise nothing would ever get started.
Firstly, you should go here: In Gallifreyan we don't say 'I love you' - We just freeze time so we don't have to kill the one we love (read the tags)
Welcome to the last chapter of The Ultimate, No-Win, Tragic Love Story.
From the CiN minisode:
Oh my heart.
The wife who wasn’t there. The wife who was never mentioned, the wife alluded to over and over in imagery, but never directly. Never named.
And this was why.
He wasn’t just grieving for his friends.
He was a widower.
(No wonder he chose Victorian London.)
(And this makes me love his friends even more...
Doctor: I have to save Vastra and Strax. Jenny too if it's still possible. They cared for me during the dark times. Never questioned me, never judged me, they were just... kind, I owe them. I have a duty.
Kindness is the greatest virtue in this 'verse. And 'the dark times'. My poor Doctor.)
He eventually found his Clara, but he knew time makes us all pay:
This is a gift, it comes with a price
Who is the lamb and who is the knife?
And the price is summed up in one word:
Pond.
But it’s not a ghost story - it’s a love story. And as I learned a long time ago in a different ‘verse:
"You’re always here to me. And I always listen. And I can always see you."
River Song - just an echo, a copy... And yet not. The souffle isn’t the souffle, the souffle is the recipe. All the Claras are Clara.
And Melody Pond is River Song, and River Song is River Song, no matter that she is just a data ghost.
The important thing here is that they are linear, both of them facing their death, and the end of all things.
Bathed in the light of everything he was, his life extinguished, his body no more, endings are impossible to run from....
To go back a moment, to when the GI attacks:
River: "When you run with the Doctor, it feels like it will never end. But however hard you try, you can't run for ever. Everybody knows that everybody dies, and nobody knows it like the Doctor. But I do think that all the skies of all the worlds might just turn dark, if he ever, for one moment accepts it."
He did. And they did.
Until Clara saved him.
But accepting his own death was easier than accepting River’s. He runs from endings, leaves people behind. But River was always the exception - the one who refused to budge if she didn’t get what she needed. And so she guides him through the last obstacle...
The scene made one specific [Moffat] quote spring to mind - so strongly that I feel that it is probably deliberate:
He and River were always dancing - she made him run, forced him to keep up, rather than needing explanations.
Doctor: “Always suspected what it was, never wanted to find out myself. River would know though. River always knew.”
(This should not be compared to Ten’s comment on Rose. Ten was grieving for his lost companion. Eleven is stating a fact.)
Mostly though, we have beautiful, beautiful circles. River - the Child of the TARDIS. Whose life began and ended within those walls. Bespoke...
His equal, his partner, his queen, his wife.
Here is what I wrote almost 3 years ago (Hello Sweetie: A Doctor/River Essay.):
And I was right.
I just didn’t know how much it would hurt. Or just how much more there would be. How deep, how wide, how complex, how beautiful.
The music from their wedding nearly did me in. And he steps into the light column on the exact beat of their kiss back then. Most beautiful show ever.
(Because she is truly gone now, her Library echo extinguished. Otherwise the whole thing is meaningless.)
Never has this been more true:
(He was so young. Understood so little. Not her. Not even himself.)
Ten: There's only one reason I would ever tell anyone my name. There's only one time I could...
Before The Name of the Doctor aired I pulled out the above quote when the River we saw in the previews seemed to be (post) Library River. Promethia and I had the following discussion:
I love it when she’s right.
But then - who better to understand the meaning and importance of a name than River?
DOCTOR: Look, three options. One: I let the Star Whale continue in unendurable agony for hundreds more years. Two: I kill everyone on this ship. Three: I murder a beautiful, innocent creature as painlessly as I can. And then I find a new name, cos I won't be the Doctor any more.
The Beast below
It’s all one story. The revelation in the last minute might have been shocking, but the foundations have been laid for the past three years (*waves to the Dream Lord*). Just look at this:
The Doctor's Secret
Mind you, I noticed that even as the Whisper Men are killing all his friends he still doesn't say his name, only begs for the GI to stop.
(Doctor: "I will destroy us if I have to. I will destroy us if I have to." Cold War)
In this context it’s interesting to look at the three finales next to each other... Each one has focussed on an attack on the Doctor, and slowly we have been finding out why:
- In S5 we had the Alliance locking him up, to save the universe from him... Except there was obviously another agent operating. The Doctor seemed to have been framed.
- In S6 we had the Silence creating River - along with a fixed point in time - to ensure that he would never reach Trenzalore, as we learned that his name was a danger.
- And in S7 the GI forced him to go to that very place. And we began to understand why his name might be dangerous.
So who is the mysterious not!Doctor? I hesitate calling him Valeyard - that’s a very specific incarnation - and I’m not sure I can refer to him as ‘dark!Doctor’, since he might be dark, but not in the way we usually associate with ‘dark’. Or rather - it's not a separate sort of darkness. Mostly I lean towards Time War Doctor, even though we’ve seen the Doctor claim that war as his own on several occasions...
But then... not!Doctor is *him*, even if he isn’t the Doctor. There are some very clever linguistics at work here.
Doctor: The name you choose, it’s like a promise you make.
Not!Doctor: What I did, I did without choice. In the name of peace and sanity.
Doctor: But not in the name of the Doctor!
Go through S7 and you will in every episode find characters acting 'in the name of peace and sanity' whilst committing atrocities. Or, to quote Promethia:
And finally...
Doctor Who: The Name Of The Doctor Review – 8 Ways Steven Moffat Defined The Heroine’s Journey
Because I won't be talking much about Clara, and that review does a beautiful job of explaining a lot of the ways I see her.
The one thing I will mention specifically is her importance as a mirror (opposite) to River:
- Melody Pond was the girl born to kill the Doctor, with no choice.
- Clara Oswald was the girl born to save the Doctor - entirely of her own choice.
Yes, she figured out that she had to do it because it had already happened, but time can be broken, as well we know. She had both the Doctor and River tell her no...
Yet she grasped her opportunity and leapt.
And re-wrote the Doctor.
Where River was warped around the Doctor (as were all the Ponds, and the show never shied away from showing the inherent problems), the Doctor is now warped around Clara. And she is in many ways the new Rose - the one to pull him out of the darkness, quite literally, after he lost everything... Not as a love interest (or rebound), but just as his Clara, his Impossible Girl. The Girl Who Saves Him.
Mind you, I'm now rather keen on having her meet Rose - seriously, just imagine it:
Clara: Oh my stars, you're Rose Tyler! The Bad Wolf! You killed all the Daleks!
Rose (pleased): He told you about me?
Clara (breezily, in her Clara way): Oh no, I was there.
However, I feel Clara's story is not done yet. Yes we know who she is, but it's not like River's story was over once we knew who she was. When it comes to Clara, I feel this was more like AGMGTW - it answered a lot of questions, but still left many unanswered. Why does the TARDIS not like her? Why does she keep being monster'd? What's with all the bird imagery?
Whereas the Ponds had a very specific role (new start, learning to live again, family, coming to terms with who he was now, all the fairy tale stuff), Clara has right from the beginning been tied to the Time War and his role as warrior - and helping him move on. River mirrored him in this, but the first thing Clara [/Oswin] did was erase him from the Daleks' memory, freeing him. She was the one to find the book of The Time War, and learning his name that way, before falling down the rabbit hole in the finale and learning it all...
Basically,
promethia_tenk summed up the whole thing in her vid: The New AgeHowever, all this involves reaching forward, trying to see where we are heading. And I can't see clearly. I'm guessing that Moffat will tackle the Time War head on, and through that help the Doctor to move forward. A clean slate for the 50th - that sounds about right.
But this episode was all about endings... And at this point we have reached the very end of A Christmas Carol:
AMY: It'll be their last day together, won't it?
DOCTOR: Everything has to end some time, otherwise nothing would ever get started.
Firstly, you should go here: In Gallifreyan we don't say 'I love you' - We just freeze time so we don't have to kill the one we love (read the tags)
Welcome to the last chapter of The Ultimate, No-Win, Tragic Love Story.
From the CiN minisode:
Oh my heart.
The wife who wasn’t there. The wife who was never mentioned, the wife alluded to over and over in imagery, but never directly. Never named.
And this was why.
He wasn’t just grieving for his friends.
He was a widower.
(No wonder he chose Victorian London.)
(And this makes me love his friends even more...
Doctor: I have to save Vastra and Strax. Jenny too if it's still possible. They cared for me during the dark times. Never questioned me, never judged me, they were just... kind, I owe them. I have a duty.
Kindness is the greatest virtue in this 'verse. And 'the dark times'. My poor Doctor.)
He eventually found his Clara, but he knew time makes us all pay:
This is a gift, it comes with a price
Who is the lamb and who is the knife?
And the price is summed up in one word:
Pond.
But it’s not a ghost story - it’s a love story. And as I learned a long time ago in a different ‘verse:
"You’re always here to me. And I always listen. And I can always see you."
River Song - just an echo, a copy... And yet not. The souffle isn’t the souffle, the souffle is the recipe. All the Claras are Clara.
And Melody Pond is River Song, and River Song is River Song, no matter that she is just a data ghost.
The important thing here is that they are linear, both of them facing their death, and the end of all things.
Bathed in the light of everything he was, his life extinguished, his body no more, endings are impossible to run from....
To go back a moment, to when the GI attacks:
River: "When you run with the Doctor, it feels like it will never end. But however hard you try, you can't run for ever. Everybody knows that everybody dies, and nobody knows it like the Doctor. But I do think that all the skies of all the worlds might just turn dark, if he ever, for one moment accepts it."
He did. And they did.
Until Clara saved him.
But accepting his own death was easier than accepting River’s. He runs from endings, leaves people behind. But River was always the exception - the one who refused to budge if she didn’t get what she needed. And so she guides him through the last obstacle...
The scene made one specific [Moffat] quote spring to mind - so strongly that I feel that it is probably deliberate:
He and River were always dancing - she made him run, forced him to keep up, rather than needing explanations.
Doctor: “Always suspected what it was, never wanted to find out myself. River would know though. River always knew.”
(This should not be compared to Ten’s comment on Rose. Ten was grieving for his lost companion. Eleven is stating a fact.)
Mostly though, we have beautiful, beautiful circles. River - the Child of the TARDIS. Whose life began and ended within those walls. Bespoke...
His equal, his partner, his queen, his wife.
Here is what I wrote almost 3 years ago (Hello Sweetie: A Doctor/River Essay.):
Still, I am sure that one day River will decide that it is her time, and send one last, final message to her Doctor:
‘Goodbye Sweetie.’
And I was right.
I just didn’t know how much it would hurt. Or just how much more there would be. How deep, how wide, how complex, how beautiful.
The music from their wedding nearly did me in. And he steps into the light column on the exact beat of their kiss back then. Most beautiful show ever.
(Because she is truly gone now, her Library echo extinguished. Otherwise the whole thing is meaningless.)
Never has this been more true:
(He was so young. Understood so little. Not her. Not even himself.)
Ten: There's only one reason I would ever tell anyone my name. There's only one time I could...
Before The Name of the Doctor aired I pulled out the above quote when the River we saw in the previews seemed to be (post) Library River. Promethia and I had the following discussion:
elisi: Mind you, she still has to be around in person [in the episode] to actually LEARN his name, y/y?
promethia_tenk: This is the big stumbling block I'm coming over. Or if that River is post-Library, then pre-Library River must show up too. Unless she just knows already because he, ya know, told her. Because he wanted to and trusted her and now there's just this minor problem of the universe wanting to know as well. Which I can actually see happening, much in the way that he totally married her to keep the universe from blowing up because it was the only possible option and he was forced to, seriously.
Actually, wouldn't that just be Ten's tragedy in a nutshell? Thinking there is only "one way" something could happen because, basically, he can't imagine something better?
Rather want this to be the case now...
Also, it nicely preserves the most important thing about that moment in the Library, which was that it made the Doctor "just a man." There is nothing special about his name. It's not a cosmic revelation. It's just a name. That he told his wife. When he couldn't imagine ever having reason to do that again.
I love it when she’s right.
But then - who better to understand the meaning and importance of a name than River?
DOCTOR: Look, three options. One: I let the Star Whale continue in unendurable agony for hundreds more years. Two: I kill everyone on this ship. Three: I murder a beautiful, innocent creature as painlessly as I can. And then I find a new name, cos I won't be the Doctor any more.
The Beast below
It’s all one story. The revelation in the last minute might have been shocking, but the foundations have been laid for the past three years (*waves to the Dream Lord*). Just look at this:
The Doctor's Secret
Mind you, I noticed that even as the Whisper Men are killing all his friends he still doesn't say his name, only begs for the GI to stop.
(Doctor: "I will destroy us if I have to. I will destroy us if I have to." Cold War)
In this context it’s interesting to look at the three finales next to each other... Each one has focussed on an attack on the Doctor, and slowly we have been finding out why:
- In S5 we had the Alliance locking him up, to save the universe from him... Except there was obviously another agent operating. The Doctor seemed to have been framed.
- In S6 we had the Silence creating River - along with a fixed point in time - to ensure that he would never reach Trenzalore, as we learned that his name was a danger.
- And in S7 the GI forced him to go to that very place. And we began to understand why his name might be dangerous.
So who is the mysterious not!Doctor? I hesitate calling him Valeyard - that’s a very specific incarnation - and I’m not sure I can refer to him as ‘dark!Doctor’, since he might be dark, but not in the way we usually associate with ‘dark’. Or rather - it's not a separate sort of darkness. Mostly I lean towards Time War Doctor, even though we’ve seen the Doctor claim that war as his own on several occasions...
NINTH DOCTOR: They're never gonna come! Your race is dead! You all burnt, all of you. Ten million ships on fire - the entire Dalek race wiped out in one second.
DALEK: You lie!
NINTH DOCTOR: I watched it happen. I MADE it happen!
DALEK: And what of the Time Lords?
NINTH DOCTOR: Dead. They burnt with you. The end of the last great Time War. Everyone lost.
~~~
TENTH DOCTOR: For a long time now, I thought I was just a survivor, but I'm not. I'm the winner. That's who I am. The Time Lord Victorious.
~~~
HOUSE: Fear me. I've killed hundreds of Time Lords.
ELEVENTH DOCTOR: Fear ME. I've killed all of them.
But then... not!Doctor is *him*, even if he isn’t the Doctor. There are some very clever linguistics at work here.
Doctor: The name you choose, it’s like a promise you make.
Not!Doctor: What I did, I did without choice. In the name of peace and sanity.
Doctor: But not in the name of the Doctor!
Go through S7 and you will in every episode find characters acting 'in the name of peace and sanity' whilst committing atrocities. Or, to quote Promethia:
Rather intrigued by that final beat: the Doctor has denied his name to that incarnation and then, immediately: Introducing John Hurt as The Doctor. You're 1) continuing the "Doctor Who?" trend of breaking the fourth wall but now doing it in an utterly flagrant and undeniable way and 2) immediately contradicting on a meta level the Doctor's own explanation for this character. Gloves are off, bitches: it's the Doctor versus the writer, winner takes the franchise *g*
And finally...
Re: The Thread That Was Promised
(Anonymous) 2015-09-14 05:50 pm (UTC)(link)And what is there is amazing by itself anyway, so don’t feel bad.
Great banner choice by the way, personality-wise: 11 and the Ponds are like “Oh yeah, domestic bliss, telly, deliciousness, this is the life, man, OM NOM NOM”, River is like “Who’s genius, too sexy, and classy as hell? Like always? Oh wait, I know. Party hard, bitches!” (seductively drinks champagne like a badass)
Have you seen the vid I mentioned? There should be a link in the post. Basically 9th Doctor watching 10's adventures. Love it. (Seriously - so good!)
Oh, I did. Nine’s reactions were the best. “Kid! Out of the way, now, this is serious, I need to watch this!”
Your reactions to my fic were also great. Glad that you liked it!
Re: The Thread That Was Promised
♥
Great banner choice by the way, personality-wise: 11 and the Ponds are like “Oh yeah, domestic bliss, telly, deliciousness, this is the life, man, OM NOM NOM”, River is like “Who’s genius, too sexy, and classy as hell? Like always? Oh wait, I know. Party hard, bitches!” (seductively drinks champagne like a badass)
Yes, I chose the caps very carefully. (My graphic skills are very basic, but I can make banners/icons if need be. No fancy layers or anything, but - like with the Ponds - I can get the desired effect.)
Oh, I did. Nine’s reactions were the best. “Kid! Out of the way, now, this is serious, I need to watch this!”
It's a classic. And yes, Nine... I love him to bits. The clips are brilliantly chosen.
Your reactions to my fic were also great. Glad that you liked it!
Thank you for pointing me in the right direction! :)
Re: The Thread That Was Promised
(Anonymous) 2015-09-19 10:41 pm (UTC)(link)By the way, did you read anything else that I have recommended, (mine or other people's)? You clearly enjoyed this first fic :) Are you up for any further fics/analyses/fandom recommendations? I've done about 9 too, now that we mentioned him.
(Speaking of which, if something is relevant to another episode/post of yours, I could post it there, this is becoming quite huge. I don't mind, but if it's a problem for you, the way you organise things...)
I totally respect and understand your probably busy schedule of course. And your live Who-watching.
Re: The Thread That Was Promised
Yay! :D
and that I also did check the comments on your post and replied as well.
Yes, I saw.
By the way, did you read anything else that I have recommended, (mine or other people's)? You clearly enjoyed this first fic :) Are you up for any further fics/analyses/fandom recommendations? I've done about 9 too, now that we mentioned him.
I'm trying to remember. Most of it, I think. Although I didn't get further with the fic. I'm sort of saving it up. ;)
(Speaking of which, if something is relevant to another episode/post of yours, I could post it there, this is becoming quite huge. I don't mind, but if it's a problem for you, the way you organise things...)
Emailing is also good? If it's less focussed? Although comment wherever you like, I'll see it.
I totally respect and understand your probably busy schedule of course. And your live Who-watching.
Thank you.. It's my youngest' birthday this week. (She'll be 10.) Time... FLIES. /o\ But chat away, and I'll get to it eventually.
Re: The Thread That Was Promised
(Anonymous) 2015-09-21 01:42 pm (UTC)(link)Actually, I checked it, judging by your comments, I think you’ve read/seen all the recommendations except for my “Love is a promise” fic at fanfiction.net.
I can re-recommend it to you. Or do you want another fic? Poetry? Parody-humor? More analyses? Cosplay? General !ART? Complete total crack? A video? (Last one not my personal territory, everything else yes. But I still know things to recommend to people. You did like “The Graveyard Near the House”).
Like I said, your call, and you can see them whenever you want or have time, no hurry. And happy birthday to your daughter!
Although I didn't get further with the fic. I'm sort of saving it up. ;)
No problem :) (By “the fic” we are referring to the Fabulous Afterlife Rifftrax Sequels, yes?) Take your time.
However, while I await your preference (and sort out the good stuff of every category to have it ready), may I join you in your squeeing about “The Magician’s Apprentice”? And analyse certain things in a weird way, because, come on, it’s me? Of course I will.
OH MY GOD IT WAS AMAZING
(runs around excitedly like the 8th Doctor in the TV movie)
It made me break my rule; that amazing. Allow me to explain.
I don’t usually watch *new* episodes. I just learn about them and watch certain scenes. I am this very weird and rare breed of Whovian who does not care about spoilers. Because on the one hand, it's not the destination so much as the journey, as they say. And on the other, my knowledge of Who is a lot more sporadic than it might seem and this annoys me. So, a while ago, I decided to embark on an epically insane quest: I have downloaded every single Doctor Who episode that exists and I am slowly but surely watching them, one by one. In the right order.
Now, if I steal the TARDIS, 3 DeLoreans, Hermione's Time Turner, Doc Brown's Time Train and manage to build a Paradox Machine, I might just be able to start normally watching the show by 2020.
But even for me, there are some episodes where I’m like I MUST WATCH IT *NOW*. (pirates the shit out said episodes at three o’clock in the morning.)
SCREW THE RULES, I MAKE THEM etc
“What is this I can’t even” was a very accurate description. So many things to talk about, general awesomeness all around. But, if you remember, I focus on details. So.
(From what this one episode shows us of course, okay, it’s a two-parter, and of course he won’t kill him, and they are not showing us everything, how the hell did 12 go back to young Davros in the end for instance, and there are tricks involved, and I think there are connections to the rest of the series and the finale, and inconceivable timey-wimeyness involved, we’ll see, this is just an independent analysis, “what you see is what you get” (and what you see is AWESOME).)
Re: The Thread That Was Promised
(Anonymous) 2015-09-21 01:44 pm (UTC)(link)Actually, I checked it, judging by your comments, I think you’ve read/seen all the recommendations except for my “Love is a promise” fic at fanfictionnet.
I can re-recommend it to you. Or do you want another fic? Poetry? Parody-humor? More analyses? Cosplay? General !ART? Complete total crack? A video? (Last one not my personal territory, everything else yes. But I still know things to recommend to people. You did like “The Graveyard Near the House”).
Like I said, your call, and you can see them whenever you want or have time, no hurry. And happy birthday to your daughter!
Although I didn't get further with the fic. I'm sort of saving it up. ;)
No problem :) (By “the fic” we are referring to the Fabulous Afterlife Riftrax Sequels, yes?) Take your time.
However, while I await your preference (and sort out the good stuff of every category to have it ready), may I join you in your squeeing about “The Magician’s Apprentice”? And analyse certain things in a weird way, because, come on, it’s me? Of course I will.
OH MY GOD IT WAS AMAZING
(runs around excitedly like the 8th Doctor in the TV movie)
It made me break my rule; that amazing. Allow me to explain.
I don’t usually watch *new* episodes. I just learn about them and watch certain scenes. I am this very weird and rare breed of Whovian who does not care about spoilers. Because on the one hand, it's not the destination so much as the journey, as they say. And on the other, my knowledge of Who is a lot more sporadic than it might seem and this annoys me. So, a while ago, I decided to embark on an epically insane quest: I have downloaded every single Doctor Who episode that exists and I am slowly but surely watching them, one by one. In the right order.
Now, if I steal the TARDIS, 3 DeLoreans, Hermione's Time Turner, Doc Brown's Time Train and manage to build a Paradox Machine, I might just be able to start normally watching the show by 2020.
But even for me, there are some episodes where I’m like I MUST WATCH IT *NOW*. (pirates the shit out said episodes at three o’clock in the morning.)
SCREW THE RULES, I MAKE THEM etc
“What is this I can’t even” was a very accurate description. So many things to talk about, general awesomeness all around. But, if you remember, I focus on details. So.
(From what this one episode shows us of course, okay, it’s a two-parter, and of course he won’t kill him, and they are not showing us everything, how the hell did 12 go back to young Davros in the end for instance, and there are tricks involved, and I think there are connections to the rest of the series and the finale, and inconceivable timey-wimeyness involved, we’ll see, this is just an independent analysis, “what you see is what you get” (and what you see is AWESOME).)
Re: The Thread That Was Promised
(Anonymous) 2015-09-21 02:28 pm (UTC)(link)(A lot. Really).
It is a Stable Time Loop. Again. He lands on Skaro, in the middle of war, because fuck you, that’s why. And he just *has* to stumble across young Davros in great danger. And he’s all set to help him, until he learns his name.
And after the Daleks, the Time War, all the terrible things his enemy has done/is going to do, after millennia of fighting him, he can’t. He runs away. He can't bear to harm (and he *could*, imagine if the situation was reversed) *or* save the boy, he simply *leaves*, and this leaves him with a massive guilt complex.
He does not interfere. Neutrality. (Timelordisness). But in *his* case, also cruelty, cowardice.
And that’s why he’s willing to*die* now, because this is the Doctor we are talking about:
It’s *absolutely* a trap…let him kill me, I have to atone for this, I should have saved him.
Plus he might had not even become such a monster. That abandonment may have helped make Davros the man that my earlier incarnations would then meet and come to hate (“Who made Davros?”), and I cannot stress this enough, he was a fucking child, what were you thinking you idiotic coward. (Superb acting by Capaldi all around btw).
And then (timey-wimey), all those earlier incarnations never destroyed him. The Doctor has let him live. All those incarnations showed *compassion*, many times, while believing they owe him nothing, and while he was no longer innocent.
And the one time he doesn’t, the one time he could not do it was the wrong one, and causes all this, because due to his sense of duty and morality he considers himself guilty, he believes he owes him.
Because present Davros is like: “I know how you think. You have a conscience, you idiot. I mean, yeah, fuck you very much that you left me, but that is a *personal* offence for which I wish to destroy you because I’m a bastard; I would have done worse, according to my worldview you did nothing wrong, that’s not the point.
But you do not share that worldview, *that* is the point, I know how you think, so it’s just an easy way to guilt-trip you into surrender. So, you’ll come; and I won’t just kill you, I’ll destroy everything you love, and I will show you first: There, compassion is useless, wrong: you should have killed me, every time.
Even stopping there to show compassion, trying to save a child in a battlefield, no matter that you didn’t in the end, was wrong. Admit it. Become like me.”
Two binary opposites. And the Doctor, who’s just had the greatest Heroic Blue Screen of Death/ Despair Event Horizon in a century, is like:
If I had saved him, this wouldn't have happened. If I had killed him –and now he certainly deserves it- likewise. I can’t save him anymore (and he does not deserve it after what he just did, the fucker). So I have to kill him.
And the problem is of course, the basic, original one: The Davros he now has to/needs to/wants to kill is still an innocent one:
If he had saved him, he’d be a saint, imagine a Holocaust survivor consciously saving a young Hitler; running away was *understandable*, no matter how much he blames himself. But if *he* actively kills a child he is wrong, he is immoral, he is not in the right, the ends do not justify the means.
It’s one of those beautiful “if you do/don’t do something you are an angel, if you do/don’t do the opposite you are a monster, no middle ground” situations. See 10 dying in order to save Wilf. To give a non-Who example, see Scrooge McDuck saving the despicable villain who he could let drown for very righteous revenge and personal gain in “The Horseradish Story”.
So he must (will) take a third option.
And paradoxes don’t really enter here (and even if they do, that’s not the point); his shame indicates that he *could* have acted differently; it’s clearly a *moral* problem. If he saves/abandons/kills/whatevers him it’s not because it’s a fixed point or something – exactly like in Genesis of the Daleks.
Beautifulness.
I want to run around, grab every Whovian and/or fiction analyser I find by the lapels and go: "What happened here was a miracle; and I want you to fucking acknowledge it!”
Re: The Thread That Was Promised
As you've probably seen, I've tackled loads of this in my own meta, so take my agreement as given. :)
Even stopping there to show compassion, trying to save a child in a battlefield, no matter that you didn’t in the end, was wrong. Admit it. Become like me.”
Because he turns it all up to eleven. It's great. All absolutes, which is impossible to argue with. It's such a multi-layered argument.
I can’t save him anymore (and he does not deserve it after what he just did, the fucker). So I have to kill him.
I think it's a complete fake-out. We have no context for that last shot. For all we know, he's going to exterminate the hand mines & save bb!Davros. Because I don't think he'd do that. (Sacrifice innocent child[ren] to save the world - that's Torchwood, not Doctor Who.) See my whole thing about Kazran. :)
So he must (will) take a third option.
Whatever that'll be - knowing Moffat, something will be re-written.
If he saves/abandons/kills/whatevers him it’s not because it’s a fixed point or something – exactly like in Genesis of the Daleks.
Depends. With the Time War and everything, who knows what would unravel by tinkering with the basics?
I want to run around, grab every Whovian and/or fiction analyser I find by the lapels and go: "What happened here was a miracle; and I want you to fucking acknowledge it!”
<3 <3 <3 Although most of them will probably be sulking, saying how the liked the Big Finish story better. ;)
Btw do you want to move further comments to my meta post? (I love having everything in one place. I know it took me forever to write it, so there wasn't really anywhere else... You really should get an LJ and post this stuff yourself. You'll get people reading, trust me!)
Re: The Thread That Was Promised
(Anonymous) 2015-09-26 05:33 pm (UTC)(link)Well, I *did* write so, you even quote me on it, of course he won’t kill him. But it’s a GLORIOUS fake-out! Come on! Isn’t it? Capaldi goes crazy with it! Read “The moral evolution of the Doctor”, at Doctor Who TV if you want.
(I do think he’s in a “I’M GOING TO MURDER THE HELL OUT OF YOU, YOU BASTARDS” mode when they kill Clara, but I also think he goes “Wait, what are you doing, you are the Doctor, look at your life, look at your choices, the kid!Davros did nothing, slow down crazy” shortly after. Although it still is a temptation, I think, because EVERYONE IS DEAD from his point of view and HE HATES EVERYTHING AND FUCK YOU DAVROS -Okay, I'm cool, focus, I'm the Doctor, deep breaths etc...)
If he saves/abandons/kills/whatevers him it’s not because it’s a fixed point or something – exactly like in Genesis of the Daleks.
Depends. With the Time War and everything, who knows what would unravel by tinkering with the basics?
Yes, some things probably will/could/would/have already changed (which is why I think he can’t/won’t be able to *really* change Davros’s life either, Kazran style). I’m just saying that’s not the point, it’s not what makes his decision important. 11 didn’t choose to stay on Trenzalore for 900 years because he had seen his grave there (although, ok, that certainly is a bummer); he did so because HE WILL PROTECT THESE PEOPLE FOR AS LONG AS HE CAN, CHRISTMAS IS DEFENDED, YOU SHALL NOT PASS, every life is a victory etc.
Btw do you want to move further comments to my meta post? (I love having everything in one place. I know it took me forever to write it, so there wasn't really anywhere else...)
I understand that, but well, wouldn’t it be weird by this point? I am answering specific points, it’d be completely out of context for everyone else. And anyway, I don’t think there’ll be much more on this, “The Witch’s Familiar” airs today.
Re: The Thread That Was Promised
Oh totally great. No arguments there. :)
(I do think he’s in a “I’M GOING TO MURDER THE HELL OUT OF YOU, YOU BASTARDS” mode when they kill Clara, but I also think he goes “Wait, what are you doing, you are the Doctor, look at your life, look at your choices, the kid!Davros did nothing, slow down crazy” shortly after. Although it still is a temptation, I think, because EVERYONE IS DEAD from his point of view and HE HATES EVERYTHING AND FUCK YOU DAVROS -Okay, I'm cool, focus, I'm the Doctor, deep breaths etc...)
AGMGTW here we come… Except he can’t. But yeah, he has the impulse I’m sure.
Yes, some things probably will/could/would/have already changed (which is why I think he can’t/won’t be able to *really* change Davros’s life either, Kazran style).
Yeah, this is why I mentioned Dr Simeon as well. Some people can’t be changed/saved.
I’m just saying that’s not the point, it’s not what makes his decision important. 11 didn’t choose to stay on Trenzalore for 900 years because he had seen his grave there (although, ok, that certainly is a bummer); he did so because HE WILL PROTECT THESE PEOPLE FOR AS LONG AS HE CAN, CHRISTMAS IS DEFENDED, YOU SHALL NOT PASS, every life is a victory etc.
::nods::
I understand that, but well, wouldn’t it be weird by this point? I am answering specific points, it’d be completely out of context for everyone else. And anyway, I don’t think there’ll be much more on this, “The Witch’s Familiar” airs today.
Well, that’s sort of what I meant – as in, future comments, not this thread. And you're already there.
Re: The Thread That Was Promised
Re: The Thread That Was Promised
(Anonymous) 2015-09-26 11:31 am (UTC)(link)Re: The Thread That Was Promised
(Well, OK, today things have FINALLY calmed down. But this week has been /o\)
Re: The Thread That Was Promised
Well I've got this post open in a tab, so I'll get there eventually. (I started reading Malala's book in... I can't even remember. Beginning of the summer. I'm 1/3 through I think.)
Like I said, your call, and you can see them whenever you want or have time, no hurry. And happy birthday to your daughter!
Thank you - and please hold the recs for now? Not that I don't want them, but I know that I'll not get to them. (There's never enough time. If only I had a time machine...)
No problem :) (By “the fic” we are referring to the Fabulous Afterlife Riftrax Sequels, yes?) Take your time.
Oh yes. :)
However, while I await your preference (and sort out the good stuff of every category to have it ready), may I join you in your squeeing about “The Magician’s Apprentice”? And analyse certain things in a weird way, because, come on, it’s me? Of course I will.
Oh be my guest! I tend to sift through stuff on my own first, before engaging more widely, so only skimmed this when you first posted.
OH MY GOD IT WAS AMAZING
Yes. Yes it was. Time flew.
So, a while ago, I decided to embark on an epically insane quest: I have downloaded every single Doctor Who episode that exists and I am slowly but surely watching them, one by one. In the right order.
Kudos. And you should go check out
But even for me, there are some episodes where I’m like I MUST WATCH IT *NOW*. (pirates the shit out said episodes at three o’clock in the morning.) SCREW THE RULES, I MAKE THEM etc
Wooo!
of course he won’t kill him, and they are not showing us everything, how the hell did 12 go back to young Davros in the end for instance, and there are tricks involved, and I think there are connections to the rest of the series and the finale, and inconceivable timey-wimeyness involved
I generally sum this up with the word 'SHENANIGANS!' :)
Re: The Thread That Was Promised
(Anonymous) 2015-09-26 05:39 pm (UTC)(link)Well, neither that nor any of my other fics is novel-length, rest easy.
Thank you - and please hold the recs for now? Not that I don't want them, but I know that I'll not get to them. (There's never enough time. If only I had a time machine...)
No problem, really. Same goes for the above. Whenever you want. Do you want to tell me or should I occasionally ask?
I generally sum this up with the word 'SHENANIGANS!' :)
Yes! Lots of them! (There’s a great 11 'shenanigans!' gif but I can’t post it here, so just imagine it.)
Re: The Thread That Was Promised
No, that sort of writing is just me… /o\
No problem, really. Same goes for the above. Whenever you want. Do you want to tell me or should I occasionally ask?
If you like you can give me a list, so I’ve got it?
Yes! Lots of them! (There’s a great 11 'shenanigans!' gif but I can’t post it here, so just imagine it.)
I can give you the coding? < img src="URL HERE" > (and take out the gaps)
Although I am busy imagining too… :)