Meta: The Name of the Doctor (it's not a ghost story, it's a love story)

[elisi]

First of all, you should all go read this:

Doctor Who: The Name Of The Doctor Review – 8 Ways Steven Moffat Defined The Heroine’s Journey

Because I won't be talking much about Clara, and that review does a beautiful job of explaining a lot of the ways I see her.

The one thing I will mention specifically is her importance as a mirror (opposite) to River:

- Melody Pond was the girl born to kill the Doctor, with no choice.

- Clara Oswald was the girl born to save the Doctor - entirely of her own choice.

Yes, she figured out that she had to do it because it had already happened, but time can be broken, as well we know. She had both the Doctor and River tell her no...

Yet she grasped her opportunity and leapt.

And re-wrote the Doctor.

Where River was warped around the Doctor (as were all the Ponds, and the show never shied away from showing the inherent problems), the Doctor is now warped around Clara. And she is in many ways the new Rose - the one to pull him out of the darkness, quite literally, after he lost everything... Not as a love interest (or rebound), but just as his Clara, his Impossible Girl. The Girl Who Saves Him.

Mind you, I'm now rather keen on having her meet Rose - seriously, just imagine it:

Clara: Oh my stars, you're Rose Tyler! The Bad Wolf! You killed all the Daleks!

Rose (pleased): He told you about me?

Clara (breezily, in her Clara way): Oh no, I was there.

However, I feel Clara's story is not done yet. Yes we know who she is, but it's not like River's story was over once we knew who she was. When it comes to Clara, I feel this was more like AGMGTW - it answered a lot of questions, but still left many unanswered. Why does the TARDIS not like her? Why does she keep being monster'd? What's with all the bird imagery?

Whereas the Ponds had a very specific role (new start, learning to live again, family, coming to terms with who he was now, all the fairy tale stuff), Clara has right from the beginning been tied to the Time War and his role as warrior - and helping him move on. River mirrored him in this, but the first thing Clara [/Oswin] did was erase him from the Daleks' memory, freeing him. She was the one to find the book of The Time War, and learning his name that way, before falling down the rabbit hole in the finale and learning it all...

Basically, promethia_tenk summed up the whole thing in her vid: The New Age

However, all this involves reaching forward, trying to see where we are heading. And I can't see clearly. I'm guessing that Moffat will tackle the Time War head on, and through that help the Doctor to move forward. A clean slate for the 50th - that sounds about right.

But this episode was all about endings... And at this point we have reached the very end of A Christmas Carol:

AMY: It'll be their last day together, won't it?

DOCTOR: Everything has to end some time, otherwise nothing would ever get started.




Firstly, you should go here: In Gallifreyan we don't say 'I love you' - We just freeze time so we don't have to kill the one we love (read the tags)

Welcome to the last chapter of The Ultimate, No-Win, Tragic Love Story.

From the CiN minisode:



Oh my heart.

The wife who wasn’t there. The wife who was never mentioned, the wife alluded to over and over in imagery, but never directly. Never named.

And this was why.

He wasn’t just grieving for his friends.

He was a widower.

(No wonder he chose Victorian London.)

(And this makes me love his friends even more...

Doctor: I have to save Vastra and Strax. Jenny too if it's still possible. They cared for me during the dark times. Never questioned me, never judged me, they were just... kind, I owe them. I have a duty.

Kindness is the greatest virtue in this 'verse. And 'the dark times'. My poor Doctor.)

He eventually found his Clara, but he knew time makes us all pay:

This is a gift, it comes with a price
Who is the lamb and who is the knife?

And the price is summed up in one word:

Pond.

But it’s not a ghost story - it’s a love story. And as I learned a long time ago in a different ‘verse:



"You’re always here to me. And I always listen. And I can always see you."

River Song - just an echo, a copy... And yet not. The souffle isn’t the souffle, the souffle is the recipe. All the Claras are Clara.

And Melody Pond is River Song, and River Song is River Song, no matter that she is just a data ghost.

The important thing here is that they are linear, both of them facing their death, and the end of all things.

Bathed in the light of everything he was, his life extinguished, his body no more, endings are impossible to run from....

To go back a moment, to when the GI attacks:

River: "When you run with the Doctor, it feels like it will never end. But however hard you try, you can't run for ever. Everybody knows that everybody dies, and nobody knows it like the Doctor. But I do think that all the skies of all the worlds might just turn dark, if he ever, for one moment accepts it."

He did. And they did.

Until Clara saved him.

But accepting his own death was easier than accepting River’s. He runs from endings, leaves people behind. But River was always the exception - the one who refused to budge if she didn’t get what she needed. And so she guides him through the last obstacle...

The scene made one specific [Moffat] quote spring to mind - so strongly that I feel that it is probably deliberate:



He and River were always dancing - she made him run, forced him to keep up, rather than needing explanations.

Doctor: “Always suspected what it was, never wanted to find out myself. River would know though. River always knew.”

(This should not be compared to Ten’s comment on Rose. Ten was grieving for his lost companion. Eleven is stating a fact.)

Mostly though, we have beautiful, beautiful circles. River - the Child of the TARDIS. Whose life began and ended within those walls. Bespoke...

His equal, his partner, his queen, his wife.

Here is what I wrote almost 3 years ago (Hello Sweetie: A Doctor/River Essay.):

Still, I am sure that one day River will decide that it is her time, and send one last, final message to her Doctor:

‘Goodbye Sweetie.’

And I was right.

I just didn’t know how much it would hurt. Or just how much more there would be. How deep, how wide, how complex, how beautiful.

The music from their wedding nearly did me in. And he steps into the light column on the exact beat of their kiss back then. Most beautiful show ever.

(Because she is truly gone now, her Library echo extinguished. Otherwise the whole thing is meaningless.)

Never has this been more true:



(He was so young. Understood so little. Not her. Not even himself.)

Ten: There's only one reason I would ever tell anyone my name. There's only one time I could...

Before The Name of the Doctor aired I pulled out the above quote when the River we saw in the previews seemed to be (post) Library River. Promethia and I had the following discussion:

elisi: Mind you, she still has to be around in person [in the episode] to actually LEARN his name, y/y?

promethia_tenk: This is the big stumbling block I'm coming over. Or if that River is post-Library, then pre-Library River must show up too. Unless she just knows already because he, ya know, told her. Because he wanted to and trusted her and now there's just this minor problem of the universe wanting to know as well. Which I can actually see happening, much in the way that he totally married her to keep the universe from blowing up because it was the only possible option and he was forced to, seriously.

Actually, wouldn't that just be Ten's tragedy in a nutshell? Thinking there is only "one way" something could happen because, basically, he can't imagine something better?

Rather want this to be the case now...

Also, it nicely preserves the most important thing about that moment in the Library, which was that it made the Doctor "just a man." There is nothing special about his name. It's not a cosmic revelation. It's just a name. That he told his wife. When he couldn't imagine ever having reason to do that again.

I love it when she’s right.

But then - who better to understand the meaning and importance of a name than River?

DOCTOR: Look, three options. One: I let the Star Whale continue in unendurable agony for hundreds more years. Two: I kill everyone on this ship. Three: I murder a beautiful, innocent creature as painlessly as I can. And then I find a new name, cos I won't be the Doctor any more.
The Beast below

It’s all one story. The revelation in the last minute might have been shocking, but the foundations have been laid for the past three years (*waves to the Dream Lord*). Just look at this:

The Doctor's Secret

Mind you, I noticed that even as the Whisper Men are killing all his friends he still doesn't say his name, only begs for the GI to stop.

(Doctor: "I will destroy us if I have to. I will destroy us if I have to." Cold War)

In this context it’s interesting to look at the three finales next to each other... Each one has focussed on an attack on the Doctor, and slowly we have been finding out why:

- In S5 we had the Alliance locking him up, to save the universe from him... Except there was obviously another agent operating. The Doctor seemed to have been framed.

- In S6 we had the Silence creating River - along with a fixed point in time - to ensure that he would never reach Trenzalore, as we learned that his name was a danger.

- And in S7 the GI forced him to go to that very place. And we began to understand why his name might be dangerous.

So who is the mysterious not!Doctor? I hesitate calling him Valeyard - that’s a very specific incarnation - and I’m not sure I can refer to him as ‘dark!Doctor’, since he might be dark, but not in the way we usually associate with ‘dark’. Or rather - it's not a separate sort of darkness. Mostly I lean towards Time War Doctor, even though we’ve seen the Doctor claim that war as his own on several occasions...

NINTH DOCTOR: They're never gonna come! Your race is dead! You all burnt, all of you. Ten million ships on fire - the entire Dalek race wiped out in one second.

DALEK: You lie!

NINTH DOCTOR: I watched it happen. I MADE it happen!

DALEK: And what of the Time Lords?

NINTH DOCTOR: Dead. They burnt with you. The end of the last great Time War. Everyone lost.

~~~

TENTH DOCTOR: For a long time now, I thought I was just a survivor, but I'm not. I'm the winner. That's who I am. The Time Lord Victorious.

~~~

HOUSE: Fear me. I've killed hundreds of Time Lords.

ELEVENTH DOCTOR: Fear ME. I've killed all of them.

But then... not!Doctor is *him*, even if he isn’t the Doctor. There are some very clever linguistics at work here.

Doctor: The name you choose, it’s like a promise you make.

Not!Doctor: What I did, I did without choice. In the name of peace and sanity.

Doctor: But not in the name of the Doctor!

Go through S7 and you will in every episode find characters acting 'in the name of peace and sanity' whilst committing atrocities. Or, to quote Promethia:

Rather intrigued by that final beat: the Doctor has denied his name to that incarnation and then, immediately: Introducing John Hurt as The Doctor. You're 1) continuing the "Doctor Who?" trend of breaking the fourth wall but now doing it in an utterly flagrant and undeniable way and 2) immediately contradicting on a meta level the Doctor's own explanation for this character. Gloves are off, bitches: it's the Doctor versus the writer, winner takes the franchise *g*

And finally...

Comments

[hawkmoth.livejournal.com]

I sit here and read meta like this and hit myself over the head because you're all so damn brilliant!

Oh, damn, I didn't even think that River's good-bye meant she's gone forever, the library copy erased...? (Not truly gone from the Doctor, as he said, but they both had to let go...?) *lalala...I want to think she's still there*

Whatever guilt or responsibility Eleven still feels over the Time War...I think it's less than Nine's, a bit more that Ten's. Perhaps they had more completely blocked out the secret memory of the one we've now been introduced to. Eleven has the memory because of all the other damage that's been inflicted on the Universe and himself. There are still forces in play against him!

I need to watch all of this series again.

And what I feel about Clara, I've expressed in story:

http://hawkmoth.livejournal.com/tag/clara%20fic

[elisi]

I sit here and read meta like this and hit myself over the head because you're all so damn brilliant!
*blushes*

Oh, damn, I didn't even think that River's good-bye meant she's gone forever, the library copy erased...? (Not truly gone from the Doctor, as he said, but they both had to let go...?) *lalala...I want to think she's still there*
We might see her again (a pre-Library River, I mean), but I think that Library River is gone gone. After all, data ghosts fade out after a while. She just stuck around because she's stubborn.

Whatever guilt or responsibility Eleven still feels over the Time War...I think it's less than Nine's, a bit more that Ten's. Perhaps they had more completely blocked out the secret memory of the one we've now been introduced to. Eleven has the memory because of all the other damage that's been inflicted on the Universe and himself. There are still forces in play against him!
I don't think it's so much about guilt as about processing it and moving on. It was a brilliant move on RTD's part, but it's added a lot of baggage that wasn't there before.

I need to watch all of this series again.
You and me both...

And what I feel about Clara, I've expressed in story:
I saw that, I've just not got round to reading yet. Thanks for reminding me.

[promethia_tenk]

But I do think that all the skies of all the worlds might just turn dark, if he ever, for one moment accepts it." / He did. And they did.
I love this insight. Also Moff once again delivers on his tendency to go and make things literally true when you thought he was just being poetical *g*

The music from their wedding nearly did me in. And he steps into the light column on the exact beat of their kiss back then. Most beautiful show ever.
. . .

Well butter my butt and call me a biscuit.

[elisi]

I love this insight. Also Moff once again delivers on his tendency to go and make things literally true when you thought he was just being poetical *g*
It's one of the lines that's always... I wouldn't say irked me, but it seemed to have escaped from the Rusty era, y'know? And then he goes and makes it real... (Mind you, I love how it mirrors TSE/JE and the 'stars going out' except the Doctor can't save them - the solution is to save the Doctor. He's not the hero, but the victim. And the GI is a helluva lot more elegant & more of a bastard than Davros. 'My whole life is burning.' It reminds me of Moriarty. 'I won't kill you. I'll burn the heart out of you.')

Well butter my butt and call me a biscuit.
I, uh, have never heard anyone say that before.

So that's what we do

[promethia_tenk]

Thinking more about why the answers about Clara here feel incomplete. And a big part of it is the difference between saving the Doctor and saving the world. Here, she is saving the Doctor. Yeah, she saves the world in the process, but her self-professed mission statement is that she needs to save the Doctor. It is, as I think you pointed out earlier in the season, a very traditional role for the companion in a season finale: Doctor saves everything, companion saves the Doctor (or, often, companion saves the Doctor ----> Doctor saves everything). And here she is the ur-companion. Now, Moff complicates this in some interesting ways: saving the Doctor is saving the world in this case, so the Doctor doesn't have any Tinkerbell Jesusing to do. Instead he has to save her, and thus on some level their roles are reversed. But still, basically, it is Clara as ur-companion, saving the Doctor.

But we already know that she is meant for more! She didn't have signs around her saying "epic ur-companion." They said "Clara Oswin Oswald, savior of fucking worlds! (gonna save yours)"

Also, I think this is in interesting contrast to River, who was already the Doctor's designated protector, sometimes to a fault (how does Moff put it? The rest of the universe can go hang.) It's a role she basically only transcends with her own death where, similarly, saving the Doctor and saving the world (well, 4000-some people) were the same thing. But still, who knows more about self-sacrifice for the sake of the Doctor than River? And she tells Clara not to do it.

[amy8benson.livejournal.com]

From the CiN minisod
Omg, you see it, don't you?
I thought I was just seeing things, but now, when there are two of us...
I wish we were shown more of this story, but still the moment you realise, that everything has already happened, knocks you out in the most beutiful and hurtful way.


Thank you for your wonderful meta! :)

[elisi]

Omg, you see it, don't you?
I thought I was just seeing things, but now, when there are two of us...
Invisible wife... Promethia and I knew there was something there, just not how literal. And ye gods, his FACE.

I wish we were shown more of this story, but still the moment you realise, that everything has already happened, knocks you out in the most beutiful and hurtful way.
Alllll the awards for Moffat. All the awards EVER!

Thank you for your wonderful meta! :)
Thank you for your comment! <3

[metanewsmods.livejournal.com]

Lovely post: can we link at metanewsfandom?

[elisi]

Thank you. And of course you can! :)

[kikimay]

I really can't add anything smart. You already said everything. I just feel so emotional towards River and the Doctor, I feel I'm going to ship them in the afterlife. >w< I was pleased to know that "The Name of the Doctor" was loved even by those who didn't like River or the Moffat's way to tell the Doctor's story and I think that the episode was so liked because it talks about something so universal and essential as love.

It's not a ghost story but a love story ... it wasn't the a mystery story of identity discovered but a love story. And personally I think that love became so universal with Moffat on the run. It feels like a polyamorous story because it's about sharing the destiny with someone else: Amy shared her destiny with the Doctor and with Rory and Rory with the Doctor because of Amy (love); the Doctor shared his destiny with River who was supposed to kill him and then with Clara, who saved him everytime and I feel like he didn't lost a pound of love even in the process of losing River, because love was everywhere in the episode (His friends, Clara who sacrificed her integrity for him ... it's always there to him and he can always listen) Somehow River and Clara and Idris are all examples of wife (because marriage it's about sharing destiny) and they are always everywhere to him and they never die.

MY HEART! *////* <3

[elisi]

I really can't add anything smart. You already said everything.
Oh not EVERYTHING! I'm sure I'll think of more. <3

I just feel so emotional towards River and the Doctor, I feel I'm going to ship them in the afterlife. >w<
Mmmmmmm, yes. It was the ship that gave me EVERYTHING. I've never had EVERYTHING before, I'm still not sure I can cope. (OK, not quite EVERYTHING as I'd want River to be around forever!)

I was pleased to know that "The Name of the Doctor" was loved even by those who didn't like River or the Moffat's way to tell the Doctor's story and I think that the episode was so liked because it talks about something so universal and essential as love.
It was a beautiful ending, and one that didn't shy away from the hard truths. (oh my heart)

It's not a ghost story but a love story ... it wasn't the a mystery story of identity discovered but a love story. And personally I think that love became so universal with Moffat on the run.
Totally. (My keywords for this icon is 'Moffat for Dummies'. *g*)

It feels like a polyamorous story because it's about sharing the destiny with someone else: Amy shared her destiny with the Doctor and with Rory and Rory with the Doctor because of Amy (love); the Doctor shared his destiny with River who was supposed to kill him and then with Clara, who saved him everytime and I feel like he didn't lost a pound of love even in the process of losing River, because love was everywhere in the episode (His friends, Clara who sacrificed her integrity for him ... it's always there to him and he can always listen)
Beautifully put! (And you said you had nothing to add...) Something I've been thinking about with Moffat is that his stories overlap. That is - River turned up 'too early', and was already established in people's (audience & the Doctor's) mind when she came back in S5. And Clara turned up during the Pond era, so that we and the Doctor already knew her. It makes the transitions easier, and also ties everything together.

Somehow River and Clara and Idris are all examples of wife (because marriage it's about sharing destiny) and they are always everywhere to him and they never die.
♥ ♥ ♥

[elisi]

I really can't add anything smart. You already said everything.
Oh not EVERYTHING! I'm sure I'll think of more. <3

I just feel so emotional towards River and the Doctor, I feel I'm going to ship them in the afterlife. >w<
Mmmmmmm, yes. It was the ship that gave me EVERYTHING. I've never had EVERYTHING before, I'm still not sure I can cope. (OK, not quite EVERYTHING as I'd want River to be around forever!)

I was pleased to know that "The Name of the Doctor" was loved even by those who didn't like River or the Moffat's way to tell the Doctor's story and I think that the episode was so liked because it talks about something so universal and essential as love.
It was a beautiful ending, and one that didn't shy away from the hard truths. (oh my heart)

It's not a ghost story but a love story ... it wasn't the a mystery story of identity discovered but a love story. And personally I think that love became so universal with Moffat on the run.
Totally. (My keywords for this icon is 'Moffat for Dummies'. *g*)

It feels like a polyamorous story because it's about sharing the destiny with someone else: Amy shared her destiny with the Doctor and with Rory and Rory with the Doctor because of Amy (love); the Doctor shared his destiny with River who was supposed to kill him and then with Clara, who saved him everytime and I feel like he didn't lost a pound of love even in the process of losing River, because love was everywhere in the episode (His friends, Clara who sacrificed her integrity for him ... it's always there to him and he can always listen)
Beautifully put! (And you said you had nothing to add...) Something I've been thinking about with Moffat is that his stories overlap. That is - River turned up 'too early', and was already established in people's (audience & the Doctor's) mind when she came back in S5. And Clara turned up during the Pond era, so that we and the Doctor already knew her. It makes the transitions easier, and also ties everything together.

Somehow River and Clara and Idris are all examples of wife (because marriage it's about sharing destiny) and they are always everywhere to him and they never die.
<3 <3 <3

(Worked out why it wouldn't post! So here it is...)

[radiolaires]

This is so beautiful.
The wife who wasn’t there. The wife who was never mentioned, the wife alluded to over and over in imagery, but never directly. Never named.
Yes! This part... The cold music room at Caliburn House, yet the heart of the House, Clara and the Doctor guided/supported by songs in Cold War, JTTCoTT, even the gramophones used in the empty factories of The Crimson Horror. She was everywhere! And I am really happy he turned out to be mourning all his Ponds, River included, at the Christmas special.

I don't think River's Library echo is extinguished though. She is to him, because she stopped haunting him and he stopped clinging to her memory, especially to the memory of a dead River, having her around as he would with a younger River. Except this one is dead. To me -and my great displeasure- River is still stuck in the Library. But she won't be a negative presence as she was this whole season. He got this post-Library River out of his system in a way. Which is good because he's no Heathcliff.

The "Reality bends to desire" quote was beautiful and so true. As the gifset tags proved it, both River and the Doctor have a tendency to bend reality -or rather make reality bend- to follow their desire. What I really liked about it is the fact that River seems to have reached a point where she is an idea, a story, crafted and written. But this time in his head. Because River has always been the woman who chose and created herself, telling her story, through her clothes and diary and entrances and attitudes. And here what we have is the Doctor basically telling he had been telling another River, her ghost, who still is River. Any River still is River, even when she is just an essence as in the Library. And this is beautiful, as myths use common grounds and threads to tell and create, it reinforces her status as an essence, a proto-myth for herself and others, the River Song we know only being an avatar -fleshed out by herself, ironically. I'm not sure I'm making any sense...

This was great! Thank you for sharing the links to the meta article.

[elisi]

This is so beautiful.
♥ (This is the most beautiful show ever. Fact.)

Yes! This part... The cold music room at Caliburn House, yet the heart of the House, Clara and the Doctor guided/supported by songs in Cold War, JTTCoTT, even the gramophones used in the empty factories of The Crimson Horror. She was everywhere!
She really was. (She is always there. And we always listen. And we can always see her.)

And I am really happy he turned out to be mourning all his Ponds, River included, at the Christmas special.
It makes so much more sense now. Not that it didn't before, but it's got a gravitas to it that it didn't previously.

I don't think River's Library echo is extinguished though. She is to him, because she stopped haunting him and he stopped clinging to her memory, especially to the memory of a dead River, having her around as he would with a younger River. Except this one is dead. To me -and my great displeasure- River is still stuck in the Library.
See I just don't understand how you can see it like that? He had expected her to fade (the ghosting we saw in the Library episodes broke down pretty quickly), but she clung on because he never said goodbye - which means that he could have gone to the Library to visit, and didn't. Plus, she was able to escape (as we saw) and had obviously been following him around, ghost-like (just like Hila!!!!) wherever he went. Why the big, emotional goodbye, if there is the possibility for another reunion? If she's still around? Her still existing undercuts the whole scene. (We might see her from a point previous to the Library, but she's gone gone now, the show was pretty explicit.) Much like Abigail in her icebox.

The "Reality bends to desire" quote was beautiful and so true.
I forget - are you familiar with Angel? (Which is where the quote is from.) Love the whole Buffy 'verse, and one reason is that it is very upfront about things like 'Emotions are power' (also a factor with River, as she clung on until she got the goodbye she needed) - and I love the Whoniverse for following this rule.

. As the gifset tags proved it, both River and the Doctor have a tendency to bend reality -or rather make reality bend- to follow their desire.
Mmmmm. Literally. <3

What I really liked about it is the fact that River seems to have reached a point where she is an idea, a story, crafted and written. But this time in his head. Because River has always been the woman who chose and created herself, telling her story, through her clothes and diary and entrances and attitudes. And here what we have is the Doctor basically telling he had been telling another River, her ghost, who still is River. Any River still is River, even when she is just an essence as in the Library. And this is beautiful, as myths use common grounds and threads to tell and create, it reinforces her status as an essence, a proto-myth for herself and others, the River Song we know only being an avatar -fleshed out by herself, ironically. I'm not sure I'm making any sense...
Oh you're making perfect sense! (We're all stories in the end.) And the Doctor has been rewriting himself, and all the business about his name and... *waves hands around*

This was great! Thank you for sharing the links to the meta article.
Thank *you*! Now let's see if LJ will let me post - it's been being v. annoying with this post the past few days... ETA: It didn't. Hence this reply.

[elisi]

This is so beautiful.
<3 <3 <3 (This is the most beautiful show ever. Fact.)

Yes! This part... The cold music room at Caliburn House, yet the heart of the House, Clara and the Doctor guided/supported by songs in Cold War, JTTCoTT, even the gramophones used in the empty factories of The Crimson Horror. She was everywhere!
She really was. (She is always there. And we always listen. And we can always see her.)

And I am really happy he turned out to be mourning all his Ponds, River included, at the Christmas special.
It makes so much more sense now. Not that it didn't before, but it's got a gravitas to it that it didn't previously.

I don't think River's Library echo is extinguished though. She is to him, because she stopped haunting him and he stopped clinging to her memory, especially to the memory of a dead River, having her around as he would with a younger River. Except this one is dead. To me -and my great displeasure- River is still stuck in the Library.
See I just don't understand how you can see it like that? He had expected her to fade (the ghosting we saw in the Library episodes broke down pretty quickly), but she clung on because he never said goodbye - which means that he could have gone to the Library to visit, and didn't. Plus, she was able to escape (as we saw) and had obviously been following him around, ghost-like (just like Hila!!!!) wherever he went. Why the big, emotional goodbye, if there is the possibility for another reunion? If she's still around? Her still existing undercuts the whole scene. (We might see her from a point previous to the Library, but she's gone gone now, the show was pretty explicit.) Much like Abigail in her icebox.

The "Reality bends to desire" quote was beautiful and so true.
I forget - are you familiar with Angel? (Which is where the quote is from.) Love the whole Buffy 'verse, and one reason is that it is very upfront about things like 'Emotions are power' (also a factor with River, as she clung on until she got the goodbye she needed) - and I love the Whoniverse for following this rule.

. As the gifset tags proved it, both River and the Doctor have a tendency to bend reality -or rather make reality bend- to follow their desire.
Mmmmm. Literally. <3

What I really liked about it is the fact that River seems to have reached a point where she is an idea, a story, crafted and written. But this time in his head. Because River has always been the woman who chose and created herself, telling her story, through her clothes and diary and entrances and attitudes. And here what we have is the Doctor basically telling he had been telling another River, her ghost, who still is River. Any River still is River, even when she is just an essence as in the Library. And this is beautiful, as myths use common grounds and threads to tell and create, it reinforces her status as an essence, a proto-myth for herself and others, the River Song we know only being an avatar -fleshed out by herself, ironically. I'm not sure I'm making any sense...
Oh you're making perfect sense! (We're all stories in the end.) And the Doctor has been rewriting himself, and all the business about his name and... *waves hands around*

This was great! Thank you for sharing the links to the meta article.
Thank *you*! Now let's see if LJ will let me post - it's been being v. annoying with this post the past few days... ETA: Worked out the issue! \o/

[lyricwrites.livejournal.com]

When it comes to Clara, I feel this was more like AGMGTW - it answered a lot of questions, but still left many unanswered.Why does the TARDIS not like her?

Well, from the TARDIS's perspective, she's a bit like River was to the Doctor. She comes from the other end of the TARDIS's life and affects it profoundly ("the steering is knackered, but you'll have more fun"). I'm willing to bet that the TARDIS can't perceive anything from within her own grave (the place a time traveler can't go), so she may not know what went on there—and to an entity as close to omniscient as the TARDIS, that's probably incredibly unsettling. (Ten felt much the same way, in the Library . . .) Plus, she might have something to do with the TARDIS's own death. The crack in the TARDIS window, the one created by the fall down to Trenzalore—the giant TARDIS corpse still had it. That implies that Trenzalore may be soon. (Of course, if Clara is the TARDIS's River, then the death at Trenzalore can be cheated. In fact, there are probably several ways to cheat Trenzalore, some more disastrous than others.)

Of course, shortly after the episode, I said to my husband, "So, basically, the TARDIS's objection to Clara was, 'If someone doesn't tell me right fucking now why the same girl keeps turning up across all time and space then it's swamp planets from here on out, do you hear me, I am not kidding, Thief.'" So that's another possibility.

Why does she keep being monster'd?

I can't guess exactly where Moffat is going with it, but I don't believe for an instant that Clara is going to be unaffected by what she just did. Rory always remained Rory the Roman, even after normality asserted himself. Is what the Doctor pulls out of his time stream even going to be human? (Well, yes, ultimately, but she may have to fight like hell to stay that way.)

(Which is, incidentally, something that always felt a little off about Series 2, with Rose. You shouldn't be able to do something like Bad Wolf and not be affected. There are a lot of parallels between the two of them, and I'll be really interested to see what happens when they interact in the anniversary special.)

What's with all the bird imagery?

. . . yeah, for this one, I got nothing.

[elisi]

Well, from the TARDIS's perspective, she's a bit like River was to the Doctor. She comes from the other end of the TARDIS's life and affects it profoundly ("the steering is knackered, but you'll have more fun"). I'm willing to bet that the TARDIS can't perceive anything from within her own grave (the place a time traveler can't go), so she may not know what went on there—and to an entity as close to omniscient as the TARDIS, that's probably incredibly unsettling.
All very true. But there's nothing so far to show that this is the case. So until further proof I'll go with the explanation that the TARDIS's dislike is for a future event... (Idris the Giant was slain by Oswald, after all.)

Plus, she might have something to do with the TARDIS's own death. The crack in the TARDIS window, the one created by the fall down to Trenzalore—the giant TARDIS corpse still had it. That implies that Trenzalore may be soon. (Of course, if Clara is the TARDIS's River, then the death at Trenzalore can be cheated. In fact, there are probably several ways to cheat Trenzalore, some more disastrous than others.)
Mmm, there's all sorts of things going on. Plz be November?

Of course, shortly after the episode, I said to my husband, "So, basically, the TARDIS's objection to Clara was, 'If someone doesn't tell me right fucking now why the same girl keeps turning up across all time and space then it's swamp planets from here on out, do you hear me, I am not kidding, Thief.'" So that's another possibility.
LOL!

I can't guess exactly where Moffat is going with it, but I don't believe for an instant that Clara is going to be unaffected by what she just did. Rory always remained Rory the Roman, even after normality asserted himself. Is what the Doctor pulls out of his time stream even going to be human? (Well, yes, ultimately, but she may have to fight like hell to stay that way.)
Mind you, she kept her humanity even as a Dalek... So not ordinary anymore. Clara Who/Doctor Who - if she knows his whole history, other things might have bled through as well.

Which is, incidentally, something that always felt a little off about Series 2, with Rose. You shouldn't be able to do something like Bad Wolf and not be affected.
Thisssssss. But then RTD Who is weird that way. The metaphors are all empty - people have titles, but they don't mean anything except the literal meaning. (Watched The End of the World a few weeks ago and came out of it thoroughly disoriented. It has actual walking talking trees and they mean nothing. Except they're made of wood and flammable. Like anti-metaphors. SO WEIRD!)

There are a lot of parallels between the two of them, and I'll be really interested to see what happens when they interact in the anniversary special.
Every time I think about it, I end up trolling Rose. Clearly I am a very bad person.

. . . yeah, for this one, I got nothing.
I'm guessing they kept something back for the anniversary! :)

[elisi]

Well, from the TARDIS's perspective, she's a bit like River was to the Doctor. She comes from the other end of the TARDIS's life and affects it profoundly ("the steering is knackered, but you'll have more fun"). I'm willing to bet that the TARDIS can't perceive anything from within her own grave (the place a time traveler can't go), so she may not know what went on there—and to an entity as close to omniscient as the TARDIS, that's probably incredibly unsettling.
All very true. But there's nothing so far to show that this is the case. So until further proof I'll go with the explanation that the TARDIS's dislike is for a future event... (Idris the Giant was slain by Oswald, after all.)

Plus, she might have something to do with the TARDIS's own death. The crack in the TARDIS window, the one created by the fall down to Trenzalore—the giant TARDIS corpse still had it. That implies that Trenzalore may be soon. (Of course, if Clara is the TARDIS's River, then the death at Trenzalore can be cheated. In fact, there are probably several ways to cheat Trenzalore, some more disastrous than others.)
Mmm, there's all sorts of things going on. Plz be November?

Of course, shortly after the episode, I said to my husband, "So, basically, the TARDIS's objection to Clara was, 'If someone doesn't tell me right fucking now why the same girl keeps turning up across all time and space then it's swamp planets from here on out, do you hear me, I am not kidding, Thief.'" So that's another possibility.
LOL!

I can't guess exactly where Moffat is going with it, but I don't believe for an instant that Clara is going to be unaffected by what she just did. Rory always remained Rory the Roman, even after normality asserted himself. Is what the Doctor pulls out of his time stream even going to be human? (Well, yes, ultimately, but she may have to fight like hell to stay that way.)
Mind you, she kept her humanity even as a Dalek... So not ordinary anymore. Clara Who/Doctor Who - if she knows his whole history, other things might have bled through as well.

Which is, incidentally, something that always felt a little off about Series 2, with Rose. You shouldn't be able to do something like Bad Wolf and not be affected.
Thisssssss. But then RTD Who is weird that way. The metaphors are all empty - people have titles, but they don't mean anything except the literal meaning. (Watched The End of the World a few weeks ago and came out of it thoroughly disoriented. It has actual walking talking trees and they mean nothing. Except they're made of wood and flammable. Like anti-metaphors. SO WEIRD!)

There are a lot of parallels between the two of them, and I'll be really interested to see what happens when they interact in the anniversary special.
Every time I think about it, I end up trolling Rose. Clearly I am a very bad person.

. . . yeah, for this one, I got nothing.
I'm guessing they kept something back for the anniversary! :)

[flowsoffire.livejournal.com]

Oh god, it only took me FOREVER to get back to you for that lovely meta. Um, never mind. *apologetic wave*

I'm LOVING your bit of Rose-Clara dialogue. This would be LOVELY :) I so hope Clara's mystery isn't fully wrapped up, too. It'd feel like a bit of a letdown. Indeed, the TARDIS thing must be explained!

THE MINISODE. THE MINISODE. OH MY GOD, HOW DID I FORGET THAT? *insert five minutes of speechless feels* Such perfection. AND it also sort of calls back to the Asylum prequel, where we had the Doctor acknowledge for the first time "I'm married". It took him all of s6 to fully let River in… And he had her for half a season, and then came the time of the echo. Oh, my heart hurts. The widower feels got me inspired too, so thanks for that =)

(Because she is truly gone now, her Library echo extinguished. Otherwise the whole thing is meaningless.)
Yes a thousand times… I was always worried River's storyline wouldn't get a proper closure (especially if Moffat left, since she is so very his). That with their timey-wimeyness, she'd keep on appearing once in a while and then… fade away. I couldn't be happier that she got a GOODBYE, and such a gorgeous one at that. I was honestly frantic about the idea of post!Library River, it seemed so wrong, but after seeing the episode, I'd say I can make "shut up, don't fret, wait and see" my new motto. Ahhhh ♥ She did fade and yet never did, she HAUNTED him. My angsty side feels complete.

It's just a name. That he told his wife. When he couldn't imagine ever having reason to do that again.
Khhhssszzzzcchhh. It's beautiful. (Though the "I made him" lessens the effect a little bit…)

Each [season] has focussed on an attack on the Doctor, and slowly we have been finding out why
Mmm. That's one of the things I'm iffy about. We still don't know who blew up the Pandorica… As for the Silence, they seem to have served their purpose :?

Thanks for sharing all the thoughts! It was lovely :)

[elisi]

Oh god, it only took me FOREVER to get back to you for that lovely meta. Um, never mind. *apologetic wave*
Going by how many comments I've yet to reply... Don't worry about it! (I talk too much. And then people talk back! And then I realise I've not worked on my fic in weeks and... Why do I need to work again? Life was much easier when I was a housewife!) (Not a rant against you - I just wish fandom paid. *g*)

I'm LOVING your bit of Rose-Clara dialogue. This would be LOVELY :)
I've also got a scene in my head where Ten is all pompous and explaining about something Old and Dangerous, and Rose is all unsettled, until Clara raises an eyebrow and cuts him down to size. 'It wasn't that bad. He's just exaggerating...'

I so hope Clara's mystery isn't fully wrapped up, too. It'd feel like a bit of a letdown. Indeed, the TARDIS thing must be explained!
Oh Clara is far from done. There's plenty of mystery left!

THE MINISODE. THE MINISODE. OH MY GOD, HOW DID I FORGET THAT? *insert five minutes of speechless feels* Such perfection.
I was just another [belated] suckerpunch. Moffat is a master at them. Takes something innocent looking, and with every twist of the future makes it more painful. (Like River's death in the Library... That just keeps hurting more.)

AND it also sort of calls back to the Asylum prequel, where we had the Doctor acknowledge for the first time "I'm married". It took him all of s6 to fully let River in… And he had her for half a season, and then came the time of the echo. Oh, my heart hurts.
Well, they had 200 years worth of adventures, and probably about another century - for him, between TWoRS and TATM - so I'd say they did OK. Consider that Rose was with him for 2 years... He had River for AT LEAST as long as his original wife.

The widower feels got me inspired too, so thanks for that =)
My pleasure!

Yes a thousand times… I was always worried River's storyline wouldn't get a proper closure (especially if Moffat left, since she is so very his). That with their timey-wimeyness, she'd keep on appearing once in a while and then… fade away. I couldn't be happier that she got a GOODBYE, and such a gorgeous one at that.
Oh I don't think Moffat would ever let anyone else touch her. No one else wrote her, apart from him.

I was honestly frantic about the idea of post!Library River, it seemed so wrong, but after seeing the episode, I'd say I can make "shut up, don't fret, wait and see" my new motto. Ahhhh She did fade and yet never did, she HAUNTED him. My angsty side feels complete.
It was beautifully done. Absolutely perfect. Closure, that's the magic word. <3

Khhhssszzzzcchhh. It's beautiful. (Though the "I made him" lessens the effect a little bit…)
Oh there were probably handcuffs involved. And maybe his name is terribly embarrassing... *g*

Mmm. That's one of the things I'm iffy about. We still don't know who blew up the Pandorica… As for the Silence, they seem to have served their purpose :?
The Silence were there to stop the Doctor from reaching Trenzalore, so they definitely failed. Now we just need to find out HOW Silence falls...

Thanks for the comment - 'Tis always lovely to chat. :)

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

OH my gods...the trick is this: It isn't everyone ELSE asking our Doctor - 'Doctor Who?'. It is the Doctor himself turning to this rejected incarnation and asking 'Doctor Who?'

*WIBBLES*

[elisi]

OH my gods...the trick is this: It isn't everyone ELSE asking our Doctor - 'Doctor Who?'. It is the Doctor himself turning to this rejected incarnation and asking 'Doctor Who?'
Ooooooooh. VERY good catch. Thank you!

<3 <3 <3

[sea_thoughts]

Clara: Oh my stars, you're Rose Tyler! The Bad Wolf! You killed all the Daleks!

Rose (pleased): He told you about me?

Clara (breezily, in her Clara way): Oh no, I was there.

PFFFFFFFF BWHAHAHAHA I want this so badly. XD

[elisi]

If something like this doesn't happen I will be VERY disappointed! :D

General Sqeeing and agreeing about River

[(Anonymous)]

Hello! Talk about late to the party. Can I say I'm time-travelling?

I am a mysterious person who unfortunately doesn't have a livejournal. However, should you want to talk, I have a Deviantart (http://basiliskrules.deviantart.com/) where among cosplay, fanfiction and !ART!, I also analyse Who. Not such divine meta, though. You are the boss, really enjoying these.
(Personal favourite: Time of the Doctor. You T.S Elliot quoter, you, you Magnificent Bastard. Speaking of which, check this out if you haven't: http://www.philipsandifer.com/2014/04/here-standing-in-front-of-you-time-of.html


Why am I suddenly coming out of the shadows *here*? Well, I had written a whole essay about River's ultimate fate in the past, and you may use it in any future arguments or conversations to support your wonderful analysis and end gloriously on top. Voila:



I like to try and figure out the spiritual/afterlife/metaphysics whatever of various fictional universes, generally speaking. I have actually been trying to write a coherent analysis (I love doing those), and that is really difficult, because canonically, the Whovian afterlife is an understandable mess: Like how the fuck is any human being going to be able to reconcile 52 years of canon of varying degrees, Buddhist show-runners, atheist show-runners, Christian symbolism, the simultaneous existence of Santa Claus and Lovecraftian monsters, the (possible) Devil, fake afterlives, Greek Gods, whatever the hell was happening in Torchwood, brain uploading, ghosts, visions, Limbo, Iris Wildthyme winning the Ark of the Covenant from Archangel Gabriel in a three week-long game of gin rummy, and writers simply not giving a fuck and going "Hey, you know what? This character is cool, let's bring him back from the dead! How? Meh, who cares…"?

I *did* like that this season's was a *fake* afterlife, leaving the real one, if it exists, open to interpretation. The viewer can imagine whatever he likes or believes. So since the "official" stance right now seems to be "we don't know, let's be vague and mysterious about it, the show doesn't go there, we don't care" (plus anything concrete they might show could result in huge amounts of backlash), I go with: "There is no canon in Who and you know it. There can't be, there are 4 different versions about why the 1st Doctor left Gallifrey, for God's sake! You choose what to consider canon, and since they are currently leaving it vague, the Whovian afterlife is whatever you want it to be. You want a Heaven made of cheese, you get a Heaven made of cheese, buddy".

tbc

Previous Comment

[(Anonymous)]

Hey, I'm the "squee and ramble about River" one. It says I'm spam. If by any chance you do see this and you are interested, well, contact me and I'll give you the rest.

Sorry to bother.

Re: Previous Comment

[elisi]

Hey, I'm the "squee and ramble about River" one.
Best introduction ever.

It says I'm spam.


(Sorry. Couldn't help myself...)

If by any chance you do see this and you are interested, well, contact me and I'll give you the rest.
Yes I saw it - I get all my comments emailed to me, so don't worry. How do I contact you? Do you have an email? Or am I forgetting something vital in the past? If you want to email me, you are very welcome to do so: elisi at livejournal dot com

Sorry to bother.
Never apologise! Well, never apologise for wanting to talk to me about River. <3 <3 <3

Previous Comment 2

[(Anonymous)]

Well, the previous comment was screened and not considered spam. I'm confused. Now you'll probably just see these two and get confused as well. Check the spam if you can.


If you are interested in River, analyses and squeeing, search for BasiliskRules in Deviantart or Fanfiction and I'll explain this mess.

(Now, I think you need to be a member there to be able to post or PM and I don't know if you are, but you *can* comment anonymously on a story, I'll see it, and maybe you can tell me what to do here to not be considered spam, or we can figure something out through AO3. Or tell PhoenixDragon, we are in contact!)

Totally understand if you don't or can't do any of this, it is extremely complicated and I sound insane, didn't want to annoy you, love your work.

Have a very nice day!

Re: Previous Comment 2

[elisi]

Well, the previous comment was screened and not considered spam. I'm confused. Now you'll probably just see these two and get confused as well. Check the spam if you can.
Clearly LJ is up to its tricks again...

If you are interested in River, analyses and squeeing, search for BasiliskRules in Deviantart or Fanfiction and I'll explain this mess.
I shall do so as soon as I have some proper time to devote. So it might be the weekend. But I shall try to find you! :)

(Now, I think you need to be a member there to be able to post or PM and I don't know if you are, but you *can* comment anonymously on a story, I'll see it, and maybe you can tell me what to do here to not be considered spam, or we can figure something out through AO3.
Hmmm. I'm on AO3, but don't use it much. Can you chat there?

Or tell PhoenixDragon, we are in contact!)
Clearly you have excellent friends.

Totally understand if you don't or can't do any of this, it is extremely complicated and I sound insane, didn't want to annoy you, love your work.
♥ I first got into fandom by contacting someone I adored (the_royal_anna), and thankfully she didn't think I was crazy or anything, and here I am, all these years later. Also I'm fandom's Pollyanna, so you'd have a hard time annoying me (although I absolutely understand the need to apologise, I do exactly the same!)... Loking forward to getting to know you, although there might be a gap of a few days. Am also deeply flattered that you like my work, but am not good at being complimented, so I'll just say thank you.

Also I ramble. Probably a reaction against being so quiet in RL.

The Thread That Was Promised

[(Anonymous)]

I just realised, I'll post what I promised on a new thread (voila), but you have to post an answer to this before I do. Otherwise I'll have to put my analysis in seperate comments, it's long and I *will* need to split.

So just post a reply to this, anything: that way I'll have a "reply" and I'll be able to write on the same thread. Or just make sure that this comment is shown. I think I can continue a thread by replying to myself.

Re: The Thread That Was Promised

[elisi]

HI! :)