elisi | Mostly so I can use this icon...

How have I never, ever heard of this? Weird!

You no recall FanLib? Where were you?

It died a lovely death & helped create AO3. *fond memories*

I've never heard of this either, but it sounds absolutely dreadful.

FanLib was one of the most inept undertakings, like, EVER. As I'm sure the 'adverts' prove... (There was fabulous Pink Guy/Blue Guy pr0n. Sometimes involving the pinata donkey. Or the Mexican wrestler.) (There was a wrestler too...)

As for the Amazon thing, then well. Time will tell.

I honestly can't see a lot of authors going in for this sort of thing (and even if they wanted to, I'm sure their lawyers would be screeching at them not to do it). It sounds harmless on the surface (write fanfic for a tiny amount of money), but I can see it opening all different cans of worms--legally and within fan communities.

If I ever got published--especially if something I wrote got made into a film or TV series--I'd have no problems with people writing their own fanfic and sharing it with others, but I would not want anyone making money on it. As a writer, that's your livelihood, and now any kid with a laptop can make money off something you created? It would be different I guess with something in the public domain.

The whole spirit of fanfic is you do it for fun. I'm old enough to remember the days of fanzines, not only for the great stories but for the sometimes amazing fan art. It's supposed to be something you do for love. I'm a bit leery of people doing it for money, unless they have a contract to create official tie-in products. I love amazon, but it's hard not to feel a little weirded out by this.

And LOL over Pink Guy/ Blue Guy and the pinata. Too funny!

I honestly can't see a lot of authors going in for this sort of thing (and even if they wanted to, I'm sure their lawyers would be screeching at them not to do it). It sounds harmless on the surface (write fanfic for a tiny amount of money), but I can see it opening all different cans of worms--legally and within fan communities.
*nods* We had all these discussions back when FanLib appeared... Of course it didn't help that FamLib was so clueless as to be ridiculous, quite simply not understanding the problems at all.

If I ever got published--especially if something I wrote got made into a film or TV series--I'd have no problems with people writing their own fanfic and sharing it with others, but I would not want anyone making money on it. As a writer, that's your livelihood, and now any kid with a laptop can make money off something you created? It would be different I guess with something in the public domain.
Well there are plenty of people who write tie-in novels etc (for Star Trek & Doctor Who), but with fic it becomes a minefield...

The whole spirit of fanfic is you do it for fun. I'm old enough to remember the days of fanzines, not only for the great stories but for the sometimes amazing fan art. It's supposed to be something you do for love.
Mmmmm. I still remember the kerfuffle over cousinjean which was only skirting the issues of this and goodness that got ugly. :(

And LOL over Pink Guy/ Blue Guy and the pinata. Too funny!
They clearly thought that fic writers had the cultural understanding of gnats. As opposed to being the most sophisticated consumers out there, dissecting everything...

I thought Amazon already was? Oh right, it's AU fanfic erotica fiction with all the names changed.

They are doing interesting things on Amazon. We now have "e-serials", these are serial novels, where you get a chapter a week. Twelve weeks in all. I don't know it sounds frustrating and one more thing to keep track of, but people seem to love it.

I thought Amazon already was? Oh right, it's AU fanfic erotica fiction with all the names changed.
LOL.

They are doing interesting things on Amazon. We now have "e-serials", these are serial novels, where you get a chapter a week.
Now that could work. But fic... There's no incentive for the writers. Or readers. Apart from a vague veneer of 'respectability', but what does fandom care about 'respectability'?

Considering the fact that they are already selling stuff on Amazon that is written like fanfic, it's not surprising.

Saw in the paper today that it's only tv shows and book series copyright holders that have granted permission. Why would they? If you buy the fanfic, the writer of the fanfic and the original copyright holder of the property would get paid. So say you wrote a Doctor Who fic, you and the copyright holder of Doctor Who (I'm guessing BBC?) would share the royalty. Which is why it appeals to the original copyright holder - you get paid without doing anything, plus more free publicity. Win-Win. The fanfic writer would get a following, get paid for their work, and feel validated. (Although I'm guessing it wouldn't be much, and hello - the price they'd have to pay to get it formatted and onto Amazon.)

But here's the thing - you can only get paid for writing fanfic for tv shows, books, and films that have granted permission.

So far just Twilight, Vamp Diaries and Gossip Girl have signed up.
(Sigh. I don't read the fanfic for those).

Considering the fact that they are already selling stuff on Amazon that is written like fanfic, it's not surprising.
LOL!

Saw in the paper today that it's only tv shows and book series copyright holders that have granted permission. Why would they? If you buy the fanfic, the writer of the fanfic and the original copyright holder of the property would get paid. So say you wrote a Doctor Who fic, you and the copyright holder of Doctor Who (I'm guessing BBC?) would share the royalty. Which is why it appeals to the original copyright holder - you get paid without doing anything, plus more free publicity. Win-Win. The fanfic writer would get a following, get paid for their work, and feel validated. (Although I'm guessing it wouldn't be much, and hello - the price they'd have to pay to get it formatted and onto Amazon.)
Yeah I can see the attraction. But. Fic is not something that can be easily labelled or contained. It's going to get hideously complicated...

But here's the thing - you can only get paid for writing fanfic for tv shows, books, and films that have granted permission.
And the list ain't great... It'll be fun to see if Supernatural signs up & what they'll do with the Wincest. ;)

Edited 2013-05-26 10:43 (UTC)

It'll be fun to see if Supernatural signs up & what they'll do with the Wincest. ;)

Considering the fact that they are already selling a serial on Amazon, which had been previously removed due to content issues than put back again, which is well ...how to put this? Supernatural Wincest meets Spike torture fic, except in the real world and no supernatural metaphors to hide behind.

I wish I could remember the name of it. I clearly blocked it out.

Ah found it : Flesh Cartel - Capture #1 Go read the description of that and explain to me why Amazon would bulk at porn or Wincest?

Fic is not something that can be easily labelled or contained. It's going to get hideously complicated...

The problem with doing things for "money" is they stop being fun. You start having to cater to whomever is distributing, sponsoring, or buying the thing that you are creating. There is a difference between "work" and "play" after all. It's often why I hate to show people watecolors or art that I've done or things I've written - suddenly it becomes "work".

It's like blogging on livejournal vs. doing a professional blog that you want to make money off of. The LJ blog is looser, more typos, more spontaneous, more personal, more fun. The professional blog is proofed, beteaed, edited, with attention to detail.

Fanfic vs. Published is the same. I remember sue_world kicking my ass for doing critiques of fanfic - she stated that fanfic shouldn't be critiqued in the same way published or professional writing was. The writer was having fun. And trying something new. It was a safe haven for people to play with writing. She has a point. Which is why publishing fanfiction doesn't quite work.

EL James stated at Romantic Times Convention that 50 Shades of Gray was not self-published. She'd gone through a publisher, and used her husband's agent, and marketed it. While it may have started as "fanfic", the final produce was published and as a result...got a different sort of attention and different rules applied. When it was just a fanfic, it didn't matter what she did or if it reminded Twilight readers of Twilight. When it becomes something else - people tore it apart.

The world is highly critical of art or rather anything that does not meet its expectations. Even fandom is to an extent. But...writing fanfic vs. writing a novel and getting it professionally or self-published, is the difference between sharing something you wrote with close friends or people that are like-minded and well, the world.

[ETA: This is becoming embarrassing, I really need to edit these posts before posting.]

Edited 2013-05-26 18:24 (UTC)

Considering the fact that they are already selling a serial on Amazon, which had been previously removed due to content issues than put back again, which is well ...how to put this? Supernatural Wincest meets Spike torture fic, except in the real world and no supernatural metaphors to hide behind.
Ah but that's exactly what I mean. Would Fifty Shades have been accepted by a publisher if it'd been Bella/Edward indulging in BDSM?

The problem with doing things for "money" is they stop being fun. You start having to cater to whomever is distributing, sponsoring, or buying the thing that you are creating. There is a difference between "work" and "play" after all. It's often why I hate to show people watecolors or art that I've done or things I've written - suddenly it becomes "work".
This. A fic writer is beholden to no one. You can write fairy!fic or penguin AUs and even if you have no readers at all, it doesn't matter. But if people are *paying* you need to tick all kinds of boxes. (I'm reminded of Moffat talking about how he doesn't write the show (Doctor Who) for the fans. There might be thousands of fans, but there's millions of audience. And he needs to write for the audience.)

Fanfic vs. Published is the same. I remember sue_world kicking my ass for doing critiques of fanfic - she stated that fanfic shouldn't be critiqued in the same way published or professional writing was. The writer was having fun. And trying something new. It was a safe haven for people to play with writing. She has a point. Which is why publishing fanfiction doesn't quite work.
*nods* Not that people shouldn't make an effort with their fic, but the rules are completely different - a fic writer writes for fandom exclusively.

When it was just a fanfic, it didn't matter what she did or if it reminded Twilight readers of Twilight. When it becomes something else - people tore it apart.
Uh-huh. And not exactly the best advert for fanfic...

The world is highly critical of art or rather anything that does not meet its expectations. Even fandom is to an extent. But...writing fanfic vs. writing a novel and getting it professionally or self-published, is the difference between sharing something you wrote with close friends or people that are like-minded and well, the world.
And the world is mean. Just look at how people tear TV shows apart every week...

[ETA: This is becoming embarrassing, I really need to edit these posts before posting.]
LOL. Don't worry. I embrace the edit button with all my heart.

Aww...but it is fun to tear tv shows apart! Also I don't consider it mean, if you met some of the people who work in television...it's actually along the lines of just deserts. ;-) (These people are paid a ridiculous amount of money and treat others like we are bugs. I am not kidding. The least we can do is rip them apart. The trick is to do it without ripping each other and fellow fans apart in the process. Easier said than done.)

ETA: Admittedly this is true of American TV which has taken off like gangbusters, it may be different elsewhere. American TV writers and stars sort of walk around as if they are entitled and god's gift, yet oddly lack the talent or perspective of British Stars.

Edited 2013-05-27 20:32 (UTC)

Sigh, every time I edit, I add stuff but ignore the typos.
The concept of "editing" appears to be lost on me.

Seriously - don't worry! :)

Aww...but it is fun to tear tv shows apart! Also I don't consider it mean, if you met some of the people who work in television...it's actually along the lines of just deserts. ;-)
Hmmm. Yes you definitely have an American perspective. Over here it's much smaller. And the Voices of the Internet can do real damage... (If I have time later, I'll go find the relevant quote from The Writers Tale.)

Not that people shouldn't be allowed to express their opinion - but fandom is not the best place for general feedback. Fans have an agenda, other than just being entertained. (I'm not really disagreeing, just trying to look at all the different sides.)

Yeah, on the American side of the bench - the internet's effect is well, it depends. Buffy - it had an effect and Supernatural and Doctor Who, yes, but in most cases it doesn't. A lot of US showrunners ignore it. And mainstream US certainly does. It's only the cult shows with small nitch audiences in which it matters, and even those, not that much of one. Buffy did tend to ignore it. OR wryly comment on it.

TV shows do what they want. They are mostly worried about Neilsen ratings (not internet determined) or advertisers. Keep in mind that in the US we have over 1000 channels.

Also, we have commercials. The only tv channels that don't are PBS and the premium (subscriber) channels. And tv shows are cut, even for PBS, for commercial breaks. Doctor Who has about five minutes cut out of it. As does most of the BBC shows that air here - or so I'm told. Dowton Abbey had ten minutes cut out of it.

So there is a huge cultural divide in how we view tv. I remember visiting the UK back in the 1980s and being blown away by how different UK tv and movie theaters were. You showed commercials in movie theaters but not on TV shows. Also there wasn't that much tv on.

Here? TV salaries are astronomical. TV actors make upwards to 100,000 an episode on the low end, and 2 million on the high end. When they film, they block off whole blocks and the trailers take up half a block.
Directors and writers make up to 20,000, to 100, 000 an episode, sometimes more. And there are 22 episodes a year here, not 6 or 13.

We really are very different. So in the US there's an attitude regarding tv which is different than the Brits...a sort of snarky attitude. We call TV the idiot box. And make fun of tv shows. I've made fun of them or had others make fun of them since I was 8. Most TV in the US is low art, very rarely do we get high art. Keep in mind there are over 1000 tv series on as I write this and 85% of them have the cultural value of the Bachelor.

Edited 2013-05-27 21:05 (UTC)

It's funny, because in discussions about TV, people (critics) in the UK generally think highly of US stuff - but then we only import all the good stuff. (Mad Men. The Wire. The Sopranos. etc.) We don't have to watch all the rubbish.

And oh, we have adverts too - it's only the BBC where we don't. And there we have adverts for the BBC inbetween programmes. Still, it's definitely not the same.

Plus, TV is much, much, much smaller. Doctor Who is a Juggernaut, yet the running theme of The Writers Take is Rusty begging for more money because they never have enough. (I'm not sure this is a bad thing. Not having enough money makes people inventive.)

Hee...we're similar. US only imports the good stuff from the UK, so we don't see everything and think it's better.

The Wire, Sopranos, Mad Men, Walking Dead, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones are all on cable. You have to pay for those shows. And they tend to be a higher quality and higher production values. Those are critically acclaimed here.

But we have tv shows that are just...not up to that caliber. And have lower production values, which you probably don't see. And a lot of it is ...similar to one another. Currently watch "Revolution" which is amongst the better ones, but it is silly and very comic booky. Not sure you get it over there or not.

Also, keep in mind tv producers, directors, writers, actors and crew in the US are paid twice the amount they are in the UK.

Hee...we're similar. US only imports the good stuff from the UK, so we don't see everything and think it's better.
And thus we will forever hold each other in esteem! :)

Also, keep in mind tv producers, directors, writers, actors and crew in the US are paid twice the amount they are in the UK.
Only twice? I'd have thought it'd be more...

Anyway our TV outputs clearly range from the sublime to the ridiculous on both sides of the pond!

THANK YOU! All day I was trying to remember the name of the other company that tried to monetize fanfic. I expect the Amazon effort to go the way of FanLib. Fanfic seems to actively resist monetization unless it takes the form of writers taking their stuff down to rework it into original fic.

THANK YOU! All day I was trying to remember the name of the other company that tried to monetize fanfic.
Totally my pleasure. It was fun to walk down memory lane...

I expect the Amazon effort to go the way of FanLib. Fanfic seems to actively resist monetization unless it takes the form of writers taking their stuff down to rework it into original fic.
*nods* Companies see 'fanfic' but never in the context of fandom which means that they don't understand it at all...

Huh.

Well, Amazon will only do it if the canon creators okay it, so that gets rid of the primary reason you Don't Charge For Fic.

There are two immediate problems that I see. One is the terms and conditions would make many writers of original fiction run screaming and flailing in the other direction. But it isn't original fiction, and it occurs to me that some of the conditions may be there to protect the canon creators as well.

The other problem is, what would this do to fandom and the ficcing community? And I honestly don't know. The optimist in me says that fandom won't suffer much at all, most people will keep most of their writing free (really, you would have to, if only so that people would know the sort of thing they're buying) and paid fanfic will settle into a niche somewhere between tie-in novels and ordinary fanfic. My pessimistic side says that this will lead to DRAMA! PAIN! and dying communities, with blood and bitter tears on both sides.

Dunno. And it may be a moot point, since so far, only three canon creators have agreed to the whole scheme. Right now, it could easily die on the vine.

I think what will really keep people away in droves is A)lack of freedom, B) THEY ARE OPENLY TELLING YOU THEY WILL TAKE YOUR STUFF AND MAKE A PROFIT AND YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS TO BITCH and C) Copyright? What copyright? Disclaimer? What's that?

That...was the cluebus that they are trying to make a mint off of people who want to be published and don't understand what the basic ideals of fanfiction are: freedom of expression, FREE and protected as a class from vultures.

Guess the publishing houses can't wait to find MORE ways to rip off authors and take their stuff and pass it around like a hot potato...

I hope it dies. QUICKLY.

Anyone wants me, I'll be here, at AO3, Teaspoon and FF.Net.

I admit, a middling-sized part of me is going, "I wanna write a tie-in novel! I wanna write a tie-in novel! I wanna be Diane Duane when I grow up!"

Have you found a link to the actual legalese? What I've found says that they're buying all rights (which is typical for official tie-in novels and, IIRC, Harlequin serials) and that they're buying the rights to "new elements" that you include in your story. That last sounds like they're trying to define fanon in legal terminology, which . . . given how much the fanfic community is based on gentlepersons' agreements, I have no idea how that will work. If at all.

I really want to see what the people at Dear Author say about it. And Making Light, and Absolute Write; if nothing else, they'll be going through the fine print with a microscope. Amazon is doing a few things right, IMO. They're not demanding any sort of buy-in fee, which is a sure sign of a publishing scam. And they also mention a term of copyright; I wonder what it is?

I guess I'm basically neutral and moderately intrigued, at the moment. But that could change fast if there's evidence that they're going for the rip-off.

That...was the cluebus that they are trying to make a mint off of people who want to be published and don't understand what the basic ideals of fanfiction are: freedom of expression, FREE and protected as a class from vultures.
Mmmm. And fandom is savvy. Publishers never seem to understand this.

My pessimistic side says that this will lead to DRAMA! PAIN! and dying communities, with blood and bitter tears on both sides.
You know, I am so GRATEFUL for AO3? It was set up for this very specific reason. (I need to import more of my fic, but that's something else...)

Dunno. And it may be a moot point, since so far, only three canon creators have agreed to the whole scheme. Right now, it could easily die on the vine.
Let's all hope so!

Never heard of these people. But then, the Fandoms they were ripping off of weren't mine and I paddle about quietly in my little section. Must say though, this shit took quite some cheek, lol!!

FanLib was so hilariously inept that it was quite fun to follow it. And it caused AO3 to be created, which was neat.

The Amazon thing... looks less fun. Get a pinata donkey already! (We never did find out why they used a pinata donkey, or what it was supposed to have to do with fanfic. But oh, it's sealed onto my mind forever more...)

Very weird. So obviously they have to get the original writer on board, which I imagine won't happen for a lot of series, and which I imagine would be harder for something that originated in TV instead of book.

Still, though. Like, take TVD for example. Amazon can publish TVD fic. Does this mean that, say, maybe they won't like TVD fic being up elsewhere?

I would think it would be much easier with TV series - the rights do not belong to the writers but to the production company who can do what they like with them. They could even trawl through this 'official' fanfic and use the ideas, which they probably wouldn't have to pay anything for!

And, of course, it could be a real bummer for the people who currently write the official tie-in books, like

altariel.

Still, though. Like, take TVD for example. Amazon can publish TVD fic. Does this mean that, say, maybe they won't like TVD fic being up elsewhere?
I'm guessing AO3 is currently iron cladding all its legalese...

Glad you remembered what it was called -S2C was puzzling over it for hours!

It helped that I still had the community friended. :)

...are those actual FanLib adverts, or parodies?

Honest to God, that is what they used!

What. What. Whaaaa...
That is hilarious.

They were so inept we almost pitied them. But only almost.

They could have broken things.

Instead they inspired fandom to create AO3. :)

A happy ending. :)

Indeed. Let's have fun with a donkey pinata! :D

Mostly so I can use this icon...

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