SPN fandom implosion...

[elisi]

Even I've heard of this incident, and as it highlights some important issues (for fandoms/fans/stars generally) - and this article seems wellwritten and fairly balanced - I thought I'd link you:

How 1 question triggered a "Supernatural" fandom meltdown

ETA: Why did I do this? *hides* Go read this comment. Will try to reply to everyone tomorrow...

Comments

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

Oh my gods...what is it this time?!

*Is embarrassed by SPN Fandom*

*Takes a peek*

[elisi]

It's... not good.

Although it might start a good debate?

[lostakasha.livejournal.com]

There is so much batshit crazy in the SPN fandom (especially on Tumblr), but this incident was perfectly lousy. Fans arguing with the person that they booed -- insisting that she misunderstood why she was booed and on it went. ::::shudder:::: The Daily Dot piece puts blame on Ackles and the crew, but in this case, the fans in the room at the time were perfectly awful to that poor young woman. Some days I worry about the future of this world. But then I come to your blog and see the light you put in the world and...there's hope, oh yes there is!

[elisi]

Awwwww.

I don't really know what to say to that.

*is touched*

[jerusha]

I can see both sides of this, but I've been in SPN fandom long enough to have a lot of sympathy for Jensen Ackles. I think the fan's question (as she states it in the article) would have been perfectly respectful, and I think she should have been allowed to ask it. However, I have seen some of the perfectly awful things that fans have asked and gotten up to, including asking things that are horribly invasive and facepalmy, and so I can't exactly blame JA for shutting it down. Should he have handled it better? Yeah, he probably should have. But then again, we all have days when we've had a little too much and respond in a way that isn't kind or good.

And, as another commenter states, this debate pops up about once a year when a fan asks a question that is truly beyond the pale.

[elisi]

Like I say above, they really should just screen all comments beforehand. Get people to write them down. And take a good cross section.

Because fans can be perfectly intrusive & inappropriate, and not all fandoms are Torchwood/Doctor Who...



(I can't find the Torchwood panel pictures I was looking for, but it involved GDL (who is straight, and now married) sitting on JB's lap, and a sketch about a gaylien... The entire show was fanservice. *misses it like burning*)

ETA: Found an icon! And seriously, every character on that show was bi/omni-sexual.



(I fear I've wandered off point. It's late, and I miss my crazy gay show. And apparently poor Jensen isn't as comfortable being outrageous as our actors. Which is absolutely fair enough.)

[hobbituk.livejournal.com]

Oh Lord. I never understand why actors go to these sort of things unless they are contractually obligated. Seems to me that a whole bunch of people need to understand the difference between BEING a character, and ACTING THE PART of a character. I'd get sick of all the questions too, if I constantly got asked the same thing, about which I have no control.

But then, I don't see why if two men are good friends it has to mean they are shagging too. How come women can have really close best friends who are just that - friends - but men can't??

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

THIS. But they truly love their fans. And they (thank goodness) don't associate all of fandom with this asshattery. I fear the day they will though. The cons have only gotten crazier and things like this have only gotten worse.

Hee! THAT is a tough question to answer. I have fun putting pen to paper - but I don't actually THINK it (and lord knows I would never, EVER say something to someone's face about it), but I guess it is because men who are close seem so much CLOSER than women can ever get - and people find the most simple way to express that closeness in fiction.

[untitleddemo.livejournal.com]

that link is a pretty inaccurate portrait of what actually went on and it was written by a known fandom wanker ("she is also a recurring guest on Fandom Wank" http://fanlore.org/wiki/Aja?). the questions WERE screened in advanced and this girl was told she could not ask that particular question, as she states on her tumblr:

http://ctfan.tumblr.com/post/49627810742/i-know-this-is-a-big-deal-but-can-i-ask-you-pretty#notes
http://ctfan.tumblr.com/post/49629300382/really-those-questions-make-jensen-uncomfortable
http://ctfan.tumblr.com/post/49637058831/hiya-just-to-clarify-were-you-told-that-jensen-would

but this girl OBVIOUSLY knew what she was getting herself into, the audience knew questions like that were off limits, so i don't think the sitch is the NO HOMO! vibe that crazies are making it out to be. the actors get shit on no matter how pc their answers are to m/m shipping questions. not just boo'ed there at the con, but "fans" take to twitter to harass them and like EVERYONE THEY HAVE EVER WORKED WITH demanding an apology for whatever imagined slight because they did not answer the question in the exact way a group of extreme shippers deem the right answer.

i mean, that said, for all i know, jensen ackles is a raging homophobe, and i don't think he nor the audience handled the situation so well. but i also have zero sympathy for that girl, who was told not to ask the question because it made jensen uncomfortable. so, what, really, was she aiming for in asking him anyway besides trying to make him look like an asshole if he disagreed with her reading of his character?

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

Oh. MY. GODS.

*Headdesk*

I just...wow.

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

Though I am a fan of the show and "Destiel", I am not in SPN fandom and this is why, LOL. The whole situation was a giant cluster, and it sounds like Jensen Ackles could have handled it better. But reading through the other comments, perhaps all is not as it seems. Who knows? Oh, fandom.

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

Good on you, lol!! I stay on the fringes myself (and have for years) but sometimes, other fans make me wanna cry. And this makes ALL Destielers look bad. And I know some lovely shippers of that ship! I just...omg...

[kaffy_r]

I've watched SPN fandom from afar, and have heard of the tinhatters, Wincest (hell, they were talking about Wincest back when I first got back into Who in 2006) and Destiel, and rolled my eyes in sympathy for everyone involved in that scene. There's evidence that Teh Bad Krazy in SPN fandom extends to other things, from how cons get run to issues of sexual stalking/predatory shit that just screams toxic.

I have no idea how it got that way, especially since I know folks who are really grounded human beings who adore SPN (*highfives a_phoenixdragon*), but the Daily Dot feature points something out that I think is very important to consider. The writers.

The writers, folks, the writers.

It wasn't Ackles, who probably wishes he'd handled it a little more gently, but probably did fairly well under weird circumstnaces.

It certainly was not the poor young fan; she might have been new to SpN fandom; she was definitely young and could be excused for not understanding the background and context, especially if she was sharing something very personally important to her. And even if she wasn't new to the fandom, she was still young. She perhaps deserved to have her question rejected - with explanation - but she sure as hell didn't deserve the booing of her fellow fans.

And - although the fans in this case seem to sadly have conformed with the "SPN is batshit" reputation - it really ultimately isn't the fans you have to cast the evil eye at.

It's the writers.

They appear to be doing something that I regard as potentially damnable: milking a fanbase by emphasizing something that a) they have no intention of bringing to reality and b) - worse, if true - may be opposed to themselves. That last I'm not certain of, but the "nudge-nudge-wink-wink-let's egg the slash fans on so they watch and boost our numbers - and then make merciless fun of them in noticeable ways" makes me think there's a little of that going on, if not directly from Kripke, then from his creative team. And he's not reining it in. Whether it's disrespect of just one segment of their fandom, the slash section, or a more generalized disrespect of all fans, it's sleazy. And frankly, if you hold one group of fans in too much active, noticeable contempt (as opposed to rolling your eyes in private over them, but treating them politely when you meet them), it seems to me you may be apt to hold all fans in contempt. And even Moffat, bless his trolly heart, doesn't do that.

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

I do love you for this comment (you do realise I'm crazier than you think, right?) - and you make a very, very valid point. Alas, the writers aren;t there to answer, which means it gets passed over to the actors. Who (frankly) are tired of this shit.

The questions WERE screened (it seems) and she knew better. Maybe the fans could have handled it better - but honestly, they get sick of hearing it, too. And everyone kinda 'knows' these questions are off-limits. It embarrasses all of us.

Then there is Jensen himself. Yeah, maybe HE could have handled it better. But I can't say I can blame him for this. He has been stalked, harrassed, had people throw themselves at him and this question has been done to death. He asked very nicely (a looong time ago) for this shit to end and it hasn't. Maybe he had a bad day? Maybe he could have been nicer? but he's been nice to this point and all it earns him is more shit. He truly wants to see his fans, but I fear more crap like this will mean he just won't bother anymore. Which is truly terrible.

Batshit insane hardly covers it, lol!!

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

I know I'm old skool but I miss the motherfucking fourth wall LIKE BURNING.

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

+1

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

I love you.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

Expect me to come back to this post and quote sections of Lynn Zubernis and Katherine Larsen's book "Fandom at the Crossroads: Celebration, Shame and Fan/Producer Relationships" because they have entire CHAPTERS on fan policing, the breaking of the fourth wall, etc. Right now I'm supposed to be writing a paper on the American penal system (UGH), so I'm kind of mad at you for (a) putting such a fascinating link up at a time when I need to do homework, and (b) making me want to watch Torchwood, which I know will consume all my brain cells and won't let me work on my summer project.

[eaweek.livejournal.com]

This is why I hate subtext. It's coy and annoying and juvenile, and whether or not it ever goes somewhere in-show, it's still a lame as hell way of writing. It's 2013. There are gay characters on TV shows and in movies. It shouldn't be shocking. So if writers want to make characters gay, they should go ahead and do so, and treat the characters and their relationship like any other. For God's sake, stop the tee-heeing and giggling behind one's hands, which not incidentally puts the actors in the position of having to perpetually field questions of "are they or aren't they, and what do you really think about it all?"

This is a big part of why I've really loved the DW reboot. Jack is omnisexual, Jenny/Vastra are lesbian, and it's right there, right out in the open, without a lot of nudge-and-wink, which allows the writers to build actual stories, without the perpetual fan-baiting. I've never watched SPN, but I feel for them if this is how they're being treated by the show's writers.

[lonewytch.livejournal.com]

SPN fan and mild Destiel shipper here.

I've spent some time reading about it this eve. First off i'm 100% certain that it wasn't the fandom shutting down a LGBT person. It appears the fans all knew certain questions were off the cards and that the reports of her being booed down from straight off were exaggerated.

The problem has to lie partially with the writers on this score. Writers have deliberately placed Dean/Cas subtext in SPN, because they understand their audience and what we like. The problem then is that there's a disconnect; questions about characterisation are entirely valid, HOWEVER some elements of SPN fandom are totally fixated on the 'ship and Jen has been harassed with questions about it in the past on a frequent basis.

Fault lies on all sides: the writers have created a subtext which has fed the Destiel shipping frenzy, the frenzied shippers harass the actors with questions about it, Jensen is no longer focused on questions about characterisation as he is hyper sensitive to being asked this so much and is defensive. It's a big mess. Basically everyone needs to calm the fuck down.

This is why i'm not really involved in SPN fandom in an sctive way. Too much crazy!!!

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

Always sensible and awesome thou art, my sweet...

*HUGS*

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

If Dean/Castiel brought this on what in the heck would've happened if one of the Wincest or the always fun RPFers had asked their questions?

Given the sheer size of SPN's slash fandoms, it probably would've been best to be lighthearted and allow fans to ship who they ship.

(Though RPF is always unnerved to me to a degree.)

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

Ohh, they have though. *Headdesk* It has been blown off though and answered in saucy ways in the past. But it's generally considered...bad form? to ask such questions. Especially since the fandom has been around so long and the actors have been fielding those questions for years. Now it's just reached whole new levels of uncomfortable (even for the audience).

Oh, yes - that's always been the consensus (Kim Manners loved the slashing as it told him the chemistry was there - which he happily pointed out to the actors), but airing it at a con is just...crass (imho).

I think it does to a lot of people - but in this fandom, it is one of the more prevelant sets of ships. Which is all well and good...as long as people remember it is just fiction (and they have a bad habit of getting excited and forgetting that).

[geekslave.livejournal.com]

Hmm...I'll try to address this as diplomatically as I can. I in no way believe that Jensen is a homophobe or even a bad person. We all have our bad days and make mistakes. I have no doubt that Jensen, Jared et al. have been harassed at conventions, asked all kinds of stupid crap, and been embarrassed. I've been linked to some astoundingly insane stuff that they've had to deal with. I know that all shows have their share of nutters but the SPN base' crazies are just so loud and extremely passionate that it sometimes drowns everyone else out, so I choose not to really participate in the fandom too much.

I thin there's a lot of blame in this situation and some of it falls on Jensen.

First of all I think the banning shipping questions thing is stupid. I think it can get incredibly uncomfortable for actors to constantly be asked about who their characters are shagging, but that's kind of the nature of this beast, especially when you've been involved with a show or film for ages, repetitive questions get asked. I'm sure David Schwimmer and Jennifer Aniston got tired of the Ross/Rachel question. I'm sure Gareth-David Lloyd gets tired of being asked about Ianto's death. But that annoyance doesn't give them carte blanche to be a jerk to someone who's asking a relatively respectful and non-offensive question.

It's a fan convention. It's not some hard-hitting interview, or Inside the Actor's Studio thing. It's not about what the actors would like to be asked, it should be about what the fans want to ask. Half of the stuff is probably going to be repetitive and/or goofy stuff, sprinkled in with some more introspective questions. One of the reasons I've never gone to a convention is because of the cost. People are shelling out good money to see these actors they love and admire, who are paid millions of dollars, and who no one put a gun to their head to force them to participate. Again, unless the question is super offensive or crosses a line (and asking about a CHARACTER's sexuality or who their character might be paired with, isn't) the questions shouldn't be banned in the first place, I don't care how repetitive and boring it is for the actor.

You can't paint all fans with one brush. While there are fans who certainly cross the line, treating anyone who has a shipper/slash question like they're crazy is horrible. Yes, the girl knew what the rules were and broke them, but she asked the question in a respectful way and it wasn't a bad question. She didn't go up there and ask "So Jensen, are you regularly giving it to Misha on the side?" (and I'm sure he has gotten some variation of that question before.) What she asked did not require that response from the fans or from Jensen.

There's got to be a middle ground between the way the Torchwood actors deal with it, by sometimes making out (which I fully endorse) and being cold like Jensen was. Have a stock answer. And I know it's been pointed out that Jensen did have a stock answer and still got flack, but so what. He's never going to be able to please everyone. Let the crazies say what they want. Don't sink to their level. Better that he stick to the stock answer, rather than being jerk-y to fans. Because how he reacted on Sunday is clearly not the way to go either.

And part of me does have a hard time feeling sorry for Jensen when he's making jokes about blowing his co-stars and the writers insist on baiting their gay fans. If Jensen wants to take his frustrations out on anyone, take it out on his writers.

I'm honestly not sure why he's so uncomfortable with the question of Dean's sexuality. Yes, the questions are annoying and repetitive, but they're about the characters. It does feel kind of weird. I know he's friends with these guys. But if people were constantly asking him if he wanted to bang Charlie, I don't know if it'd make him squirm as much.

If, at this point in time, Jensen can't roll with it like Misha and it really bothers him, then yeah he's got to have to make the painful decision of whether or not dealing with the relative majority of sane SPN fans is worth having to deal with the weirdos at the conventions.

Stacey

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

I do like SPN, but I've stayed far, far away from fandom for a very good reason. That fandom makes Harry Potter fandom look sane. It wasn't that long ago that the J2/ tinhats (I think they're is the same group) were threatening Jared's wife. Because her having a baby meant that she was ruining Jared and Jensen's sweet, sweet love. Or possibly something even more convoluted; it's not what I'd call rational.

I.. kinda feel badly for everyone involved.

On the other hand I've had the kind of day that I seriously needed to be distracted from thinking about and this worked nicely. Pass the popcorn!

[yourlibrarian]

I find myself impatient with this sort of stuff. It would all stop fairly quickly if, instead of being able to ask their questions directly, people had to submit questions to a moderator who would ask them (or choose not to). 90% of the questions are not asked because people want the answers, it's because they want to be able to speak directly to the actors. There would be so many more interesting things asked as well, if questions were chosen on the basis of being good questions instead of who was willing to go ask them in person. And while some actors are pretty bad at making Q&A's interesting, most of the SPN actors who appear at cons are great fun to watch and realize it's all about entertaining the audience. They could still make the most of the moderator format.

[elisi]

This.

Plus, if the writers stop baiting the fans... Or just admitted to being trolls. Either would help.