elisi | SPN fandom implosion...

Oh my gods...what is it this time?!

*Is embarrassed by SPN Fandom*

*Takes a peek*

It's... not good.

Although it might start a good debate?

There is so much batshit crazy in the SPN fandom (especially on Tumblr), but this incident was perfectly lousy. Fans arguing with the person that they booed -- insisting that she misunderstood why she was booed and on it went. ::::shudder:::: The Daily Dot piece puts blame on Ackles and the crew, but in this case, the fans in the room at the time were perfectly awful to that poor young woman. Some days I worry about the future of this world. But then I come to your blog and see the light you put in the world and...there's hope, oh yes there is!

Awwwww.

I don't really know what to say to that.

*is touched*

F@#k. (Sorry, sorry...just finished reading this)

It MIGHT be debate worthy. If it hadn't already been debated to death over the last three to four years...

I hate to say it (and I might be booed off of here for this), but I can't blame Ackles for dismissing and even ignoring the question. This man gets hounded at every con over Destiel. The shippers of it are getting insane - and while Misha rolls with it (he thinks it's funny and loads of fun), it is known that Ackles is a private man. Fandom asks him embarrassing and uncalled for questions about his sex life, Dean's sex life, they start arguments in the middle of panels and public humiliate this man on a regular - and he still smiles and shows up because the majority of fans aren't like this.

Still. I can't blame him for banning questions and ignoring questions like this. It has gotten to where he can't do ANY panel without someone wittering on about how he must be shagging Misha or Jared (and he's married with a child on the way) or if he's ever read any of the slashfics about Dean and Sam/Dean and Castiel - does he support it, does he find Castiel hot on and on and on...

I'm glad Tumblr thinks they are the first on this fucking wagon, but I hate to tell them - this shit has been going on long than Tumblr and Twitter have been around. He was tired of it three years ago, but he let it all slide for a long time. Unfortunately, the more he has let it slide, the worse it has gotten and if he threw a fucking fit about it I wouldn't blink. It has become invasive, embarrassing, horrifying and terrible. People at SPN Cons have no common sense when it comes to questions and these actors - and too often they identify the actor with the character and go into a rage when they don't hear what they wanna hear.

So great...now here comes the 'smear the actor' rage campaigns on Tumblr. I get that Tumblr likes to point out priviledge and keep things socially in check. But honestly, stupidity just seems to run rampant at these cons - and smearing or getting pissed at the actor because he will no longer cater to such asshattery is taking it waaaaayyy too far.

Yeah. Sorry. I have feelings on this. A lot of them. Alas, none of this shite surprises me in the slightest...*headdesk*

Edited 2013-05-07 20:23 (UTC)

From an outsider's perspective, it just comes across as fandom trying to shut down a LGTB person...

And if they have an actual subtext in the show (as opposed to just what fans see), then it *is* a valid line of questioning. /my two cents knowing NOTHING

However, rabid shippers are not easy to deal with, but they should seriously try to screen questions beforehand - plenty of panels do, so it wouldn't even be something new.

Say Sherlock - the fans will send photoshopped images to Moffat. He doesn't mind the crazy shipping (he is troll after all, and knows exactly how much teasing he puts in), he just doesn't want it shoved under his nose. They're his friends after all...

Most of all, then the Torchwood model should be used for every show y/y?

I can see both sides of this, but I've been in SPN fandom long enough to have a lot of sympathy for Jensen Ackles. I think the fan's question (as she states it in the article) would have been perfectly respectful, and I think she should have been allowed to ask it. However, I have seen some of the perfectly awful things that fans have asked and gotten up to, including asking things that are horribly invasive and facepalmy, and so I can't exactly blame JA for shutting it down. Should he have handled it better? Yeah, he probably should have. But then again, we all have days when we've had a little too much and respond in a way that isn't kind or good.

And, as another commenter states, this debate pops up about once a year when a fan asks a question that is truly beyond the pale.

Like I say above, they really should just screen all comments beforehand. Get people to write them down. And take a good cross section.

Because fans can be perfectly intrusive & inappropriate, and not all fandoms are Torchwood/Doctor Who...

jbDTkiss

(I can't find the Torchwood panel pictures I was looking for, but it involved GDL (who is straight, and now married) sitting on JB's lap, and a sketch about a gaylien... The entire show was fanservice. *misses it like burning*)

ETA: Found an icon! And seriously, every character on that show was bi/omni-sexual.

TheHUBCon_012_bm_shipper

(I fear I've wandered off point. It's late, and I miss my crazy gay show. And apparently poor Jensen isn't as comfortable being outrageous as our actors. Which is absolutely fair enough.)

Edited 2013-05-07 20:58 (UTC)

Ohhh no. Not at all. And with SPN Fandom, I'm not surprised with this shite getting kicked around like this. No - they had no idea this chick was bi. She was asking a question that has been frowned on because it has become harrassing. I'm glad she's bi. I'm glad she ships. DO NOT ASK QUESTIONS LIKE THIS OF THE ACTORS FOR THE FIVE THOUSANDTH TIME. I'm sorry she was crying. I'm sorry the fans are assholes. But honestly she should have known better in SO MANY WAYS. If she follows the show/actors/cons AT ALL she should know this question has been done to death and it has gotten out of hand. Seriously out of hand.

They have subtext. And the actors think it is funny...AMONGST EACH OTHER. The subtext is there for the fans to squeal about - and the showrunners get a kick out of it. But honestly, too far is too far. Dean has been shown to be straight. For the show - he is straight. Castiel is a frigging ANGEL with personal space issues. He has show a preference for females, even as he has a special connection to Dean. The subtext is fun. It is great for writing and loads of fun to play with. But the harrassment by crazy fans has gotten stupid and it makes it less fun when everyone just wants to see or hear that you/you character are madly in wuv with a character that is not attractive to you. Again and again and again and again and again and -

Normally I would say, yes it is a valid line of questioning. But these actors are not the writers. Most of the time the actors don't see it and it has gotten beyond silly with how the fans behave about it. SPN Fans are the worst fans of ever. I feel so bad for these actors. It is a wonder they show up at cons at all anymore!

Yeah. Just like that, really. It makes people who work and live this show uncomfortable. And they do have a right to be uncomfortable. A lot of people forget that. I'm all down with LGBT - I want one day for us all to look back and wonder why it was even an ISSUE. But it is not on to shove it in someone's face, tell them they represent you, embarrass, humiliate them over the issue. Using LGBT issues as a bludgeon and maltreating others with it is not what the movement is about.

Indeed, lol!! Everyon should be represented in every show imho...Jack and Ianto are marvelous examples of this!

*HUGS*

Oh Lord. I never understand why actors go to these sort of things unless they are contractually obligated. Seems to me that a whole bunch of people need to understand the difference between BEING a character, and ACTING THE PART of a character. I'd get sick of all the questions too, if I constantly got asked the same thing, about which I have no control.

But then, I don't see why if two men are good friends it has to mean they are shagging too. How come women can have really close best friends who are just that - friends - but men can't??

He used to be outrageous. They all did. Fandom kinda killed it. *Cries*

Poor Jensen. He's such a nice guy - but honestly, I can see (this being the first question outta the gate) he could see a bad day coming. Maybe he could have handled it better. Frankly, I'm surprised he wasn't more rude. He's almost earned the right to be rude/throw a diva fit/show his ass now and again. His kindness has been taken advantage of wayyy to many times.

I miss the days when they could all play and Fandom wouldn't go insane over it. That's the irony there...the fans would have gotten more of what they want - if they had just left it all well enough alone.

*Headdesk*

THIS. But they truly love their fans. And they (thank goodness) don't associate all of fandom with this asshattery. I fear the day they will though. The cons have only gotten crazier and things like this have only gotten worse.

Hee! THAT is a tough question to answer. I have fun putting pen to paper - but I don't actually THINK it (and lord knows I would never, EVER say something to someone's face about it), but I guess it is because men who are close seem so much CLOSER than women can ever get - and people find the most simple way to express that closeness in fiction.

Also, just saw this link: http://growleythehellhound.tumblr.com/post/49855551121/what-actually-happened-at-the-j2-pannel

Another side?

Reminds me of something hobbitmum used to say. There are three sides to everything - your side, their side and the truth...

that link is a pretty inaccurate portrait of what actually went on and it was written by a known fandom wanker ("she is also a recurring guest on Fandom Wank" http://fanlore.org/wiki/Aja?). the questions WERE screened in advanced and this girl was told she could not ask that particular question, as she states on her tumblr:

http://ctfan.tumblr.com/post/49627810742/i-know-this-is-a-big-deal-but-can-i-ask-you-pretty#notes
http://ctfan.tumblr.com/post/49629300382/really-those-questions-make-jensen-uncomfortable
http://ctfan.tumblr.com/post/49637058831/hiya-just-to-clarify-were-you-told-that-jensen-would

but this girl OBVIOUSLY knew what she was getting herself into, the audience knew questions like that were off limits, so i don't think the sitch is the NO HOMO! vibe that crazies are making it out to be. the actors get shit on no matter how pc their answers are to m/m shipping questions. not just boo'ed there at the con, but "fans" take to twitter to harass them and like EVERYONE THEY HAVE EVER WORKED WITH demanding an apology for whatever imagined slight because they did not answer the question in the exact way a group of extreme shippers deem the right answer.

i mean, that said, for all i know, jensen ackles is a raging homophobe, and i don't think he nor the audience handled the situation so well. but i also have zero sympathy for that girl, who was told not to ask the question because it made jensen uncomfortable. so, what, really, was she aiming for in asking him anyway besides trying to make him look like an asshole if he disagreed with her reading of his character?

Though I am a fan of the show and "Destiel", I am not in SPN fandom and this is why, LOL. The whole situation was a giant cluster, and it sounds like Jensen Ackles could have handled it better. But reading through the other comments, perhaps all is not as it seems. Who knows? Oh, fandom.

Edited 2013-05-07 21:26 (UTC)

This actually sounds pretty accurate. I'd have to see the link, but I'm pretty much betting this is what happened.

JRA has never shown a propensity to homophobia. He finally got tired of fielding these questions ~~after three years of being harrassed like this~~ and I can see why he'd put the kabosh on it. He's a talented and noteworthy actor. There are better, deeper questions to ask...and I'm sure everyone was told and honestly - most cons DO screen questions because of situations like these.

Sounds like she brought it onto herself, then got mad and started a slam campaign over JRA's unproven homophobia...ye gods. And yes...the fans are sick of it, too. It makes us ALL look bad, really.

I've watched SPN fandom from afar, and have heard of the tinhatters, Wincest (hell, they were talking about Wincest back when I first got back into Who in 2006) and Destiel, and rolled my eyes in sympathy for everyone involved in that scene. There's evidence that Teh Bad Krazy in SPN fandom extends to other things, from how cons get run to issues of sexual stalking/predatory shit that just screams toxic.

I have no idea how it got that way, especially since I know folks who are really grounded human beings who adore SPN (*highfives

a_phoenixdragon*), but the Daily Dot feature points something out that I think is very important to consider. The writers.

The writers, folks, the writers.

It wasn't Ackles, who probably wishes he'd handled it a little more gently, but probably did fairly well under weird circumstnaces.

It certainly was not the poor young fan; she might have been new to SpN fandom; she was definitely young and could be excused for not understanding the background and context, especially if she was sharing something very personally important to her. And even if she wasn't new to the fandom, she was still young. She perhaps deserved to have her question rejected - with explanation - but she sure as hell didn't deserve the booing of her fellow fans.

And - although the fans in this case seem to sadly have conformed with the "SPN is batshit" reputation - it really ultimately isn't the fans you have to cast the evil eye at.

It's the writers.

They appear to be doing something that I regard as potentially damnable: milking a fanbase by emphasizing something that a) they have no intention of bringing to reality and b) - worse, if true - may be opposed to themselves. That last I'm not certain of, but the "nudge-nudge-wink-wink-let's egg the slash fans on so they watch and boost our numbers - and then make merciless fun of them in noticeable ways" makes me think there's a little of that going on, if not directly from Kripke, then from his creative team. And he's not reining it in. Whether it's disrespect of just one segment of their fandom, the slash section, or a more generalized disrespect of all fans, it's sleazy. And frankly, if you hold one group of fans in too much active, noticeable contempt (as opposed to rolling your eyes in private over them, but treating them politely when you meet them), it seems to me you may be apt to hold all fans in contempt. And even Moffat, bless his trolly heart, doesn't do that.

Oh. MY. GODS.

*Headdesk*

I just...wow.

Good on you, lol!! I stay on the fringes myself (and have for years) but sometimes, other fans make me wanna cry. And this makes ALL Destielers look bad. And I know some lovely shippers of that ship! I just...omg...

I do love you for this comment (you do realise I'm crazier than you think, right?) - and you make a very, very valid point. Alas, the writers aren;t there to answer, which means it gets passed over to the actors. Who (frankly) are tired of this shit.

The questions WERE screened (it seems) and she knew better. Maybe the fans could have handled it better - but honestly, they get sick of hearing it, too. And everyone kinda 'knows' these questions are off-limits. It embarrasses all of us.

Then there is Jensen himself. Yeah, maybe HE could have handled it better. But I can't say I can blame him for this. He has been stalked, harrassed, had people throw themselves at him and this question has been done to death. He asked very nicely (a looong time ago) for this shit to end and it hasn't. Maybe he had a bad day? Maybe he could have been nicer? but he's been nice to this point and all it earns him is more shit. He truly wants to see his fans, but I fear more crap like this will mean he just won't bother anymore. Which is truly terrible.

Batshit insane hardly covers it, lol!!

Ackles can't be blamed; he definitely was caught in a weird situation. He probably handled it better than I might have.

The girl, if she was asking the question specifically after she'd been told not to (and I'm a little confused there; if that was the case, who the hell handed her the mike?), definitely brought it on herself - but again, we don't know if this was her first convention, how old she was (there's a law of physics out there that says if you're 11-21, there's a 79.9852% potential for Being Stupid Because Young), or whether whoever handed her the mike said, "oh, sure, go ahead" when they shouldn't.

It calls for better, more strictly and intelligently enforced, panel Q&A policy. And it should call for the writers and show runners to think about what they've wrought over the past, what, 10 years.

THIS.

Ohh, it seems she said she'd ask a completely different question (and the organisers approved it), then she went and asked THIS question instead. To the horror and shock of everyone involved. Seems (from the Tumblr stuffs above) that she knew EXACTLY what she was doing. And therefore it is on her head. *Headdesk*

THISTHISTHIS. Fun and games is fun and games. The subtext and all that was funny for a while. Then the crazy at cons and stuff started getting out of hand. The writers/producers should have stopped and re-evaluated and they certainly have not.

Edited 2013-05-07 22:06 (UTC)

ETA: I just read one of the responses above, which I hadn't seen before I posted my previous comment. And now I'm seeing your comment here. Wow. That really makes the young lady about 75 percent responsible for the shit that rolled down on her. Poor thing; hope she learns from the experience that she shouldn't try to do "cute" things like that, not in an atmosphere like that. The question she really wanted to ask was a nuanced and intelligent one, but if it didn't meet the rules, then she should have groaned and accepted it, sad as that might seem to her.

Looking at the Daily Dot story from the point of view of a journalist, it seemed fairly even-handed. It didn't accuse Ackles of homophobia, but rather talked about the madness of perception - of all kinds - within the fandom. Still, the knowledge that the writer has wanked about the fandom in the past, or at least the comment that that is perceived to be the case, is useful data.

As another outsider with very limited knowledge, who has only read two posts on this subject - one being the first hand account of the person asking the question - I have to say I agree with

elisi that it comes across as a LGBT person being shut down by fandom. She says herself that it was when she mentioned she was bi that the audience started groaning or booing or whatever they were doing. So they definitely knew she was bi, it was the reason for the booing. Now, it's possible that the audience thought they knew what was coming (though I assume they knew the questions were pre-approved so I'm not sure why they couldn't hear her out), but still, it sounded very much like homophobia, and it sounded like it stemmed from the lead actor himself.

I thought the article linked in this post made a very valid point that if the questions bug him, come up with a rote answer and give it every time. People will get bored of asking.

I know that is how it seems, but honestly, this is normally one of the more open fandoms. Perception is everything though (unfortunately).

Alas, the second she said that, they all knew what was coming. It's considered a classic now. There should have been a better reaction, better behavior from the audience/fans, but they were reacting to what she was going to say. Not the fact she was bi. Half the audience is part of the shipperdom - I'm quite sure - but it becomes cringeworthy when people keep nailing the same questions over and over because they don't like the response.

He used to do a rote answer. And that's when things got REALLY out of hand.

I can't answer whether Jensen is homophobic, but with as much as I know about him (which is admittedly little) I do know that would go against his personality. He has been tolerating this for so long, it is truly ridiculous. And now it's become a fandom thing: Who Will Ask the Question? And we all wait every year for someone to do it. And every year they don't disappoint. And every year he grinds out the same answer, only to get harrassed for how vague, glib or 'uncaring' his response is.

This whole thing is just crazy - but I don't disagree...it should have been handled better by all involved. It seems o have just been one of those days - and I'm sure everything that could go wrong with that situation pretty much did.

SPN fandom implosion...

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