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This is interesting...
As you know (?) I've been following AOQ's Buffy-verse reviews. Apart from a bizarre sense of humour (didn't like "Band Candy' f.ex.), he has some very good thoughts generally (and he loved 'Pangs' so all is not lost...). Anyway, he's now watched 'I Will Remember You'.
(Funniest comment from someone quoting David Hines:
This episode should have come with commemorative towels. The shippers could have used them to mop up drool, tears, and other bodily fluids as appropriate. The rest of us could have soaked 'em, rolled 'em up, and given the writers a much-deserved rat-tailing they'd never forget.)
Anyway, AOQ gave it an 'Excellent' (his top mark), but that doesn't mean that he's a B/A shipper at all:
And of course, see the way he [Angel] does it: once again it's a unilateral decision, making choices "for their own good" without consulting his better half, and ultimately cutting Buffy out of the loop entirely. The early scenes of the episode serve to not-so-subtly suggest that she wouldn't like that, if she could remember it happening. Beyond the plot-based reasons that our lovers can't be lovers, this hits at a character-based obstacle, a fundamental difference in attitudes.
From a reply to someone else:
one of the reasons I loved it is that it proved to me that Angel's the reason the two of them shouldn't be together in the long run - who he is, not what he is.
And about Angel generally:
So far he's shown an interesting mix of overconfidence in his own abilities (both physical and decision-making), the notion that he's the one who needs to deal with every problem, and the belief that his presence is a problem or liability for people, so the solution for everything is for him to take himself out of the picture. Call it a martyr complex.
I'm *really* looking forward to seeing what he thinks of the rest of the 'verse!
(Funniest comment from someone quoting David Hines:
This episode should have come with commemorative towels. The shippers could have used them to mop up drool, tears, and other bodily fluids as appropriate. The rest of us could have soaked 'em, rolled 'em up, and given the writers a much-deserved rat-tailing they'd never forget.)
Anyway, AOQ gave it an 'Excellent' (his top mark), but that doesn't mean that he's a B/A shipper at all:
And of course, see the way he [Angel] does it: once again it's a unilateral decision, making choices "for their own good" without consulting his better half, and ultimately cutting Buffy out of the loop entirely. The early scenes of the episode serve to not-so-subtly suggest that she wouldn't like that, if she could remember it happening. Beyond the plot-based reasons that our lovers can't be lovers, this hits at a character-based obstacle, a fundamental difference in attitudes.
From a reply to someone else:
one of the reasons I loved it is that it proved to me that Angel's the reason the two of them shouldn't be together in the long run - who he is, not what he is.
And about Angel generally:
So far he's shown an interesting mix of overconfidence in his own abilities (both physical and decision-making), the notion that he's the one who needs to deal with every problem, and the belief that his presence is a problem or liability for people, so the solution for everything is for him to take himself out of the picture. Call it a martyr complex.
I'm *really* looking forward to seeing what he thinks of the rest of the 'verse!
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I do agree with him about Angel. As we move on in the verse, their meetings show us more and more how much they don't know each other anymore.. Buffy blurts that she loves Riley, yet never bothers to let Riley in on it. Angel pretends all is well in both FOREVER and CHOSEN. Who knows what went on when they met up with each other after FLOODED, but it couldn't have been good, since Buffy told Spike he was the only one she could stand to be around.
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Probably - but I have no idea what way he'll go. Now 'Superstar' he'll probably not like because of the 'one joke' set-up, but there's hope for SB what with him loving 'Pangs'... Anyway, I guess we'll know tomorrow. *crosses fingers*
their meetings show us more and more how much they don't know each other anymore..
Exactly. (Did you read my fic? I think you might like it.) Anyway, I don't think they ever really knew each other in the first place, which is another problem.
And post-'Flooded' Buffy came home with chicken wings and Angel went out for ice-cream: Comfort food = bad meeting!
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On the other hand, Buffy flip-flops from being needy to pushing away her lovers, so she's no poster child for mental health either. :)
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And she turned him down.
And it sure would have been intense.
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Buffy though is only young - I'm sure once she gets to 25-30 she'll know what she wants a lot better!
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And she turned him down.
Why have I never thought of this???? It's brilliant! *loves*
(And you should read my fic... because I really tried to work through the why of everything. Fic can be very good for that) (And also then I won't have to re-phrase it all for you! *g*)
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Working backwards: Why was Angel not only the ex-lover but also the angsty supplicant in Chosen and TGiQ when the last time they were together in Forever, Buffy was still the supplicant who wanted him to stay?
Something must have happened in their interim meeting that reversed things and made Angel the supplicant who wanted them back together and Buffy the wiser one who didn't.
What could have made Angel ask Buffy to come back to him even though the curse was still in place?
The only thing strong enough would be something like Buffy's death. Oh, but Buffy just did die and was barely resurrected.
Therefore, after Flooded Angel asked her to come back and Buffy turned him down.
Q.E.D.
I don't think she did it for love of Spike or anything (though as her confessor he was part of it). It just wasn't what she needed anymore.
--
And I did read your fic. You only have to tempt me so many times.
I like the way you veer them just ever so slightly off canon to force them to explain themselves. "It could never be just a hello," is a good line and right in place in their relationship.
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I'm wondering how Mrs. Q will like SOMETHING BLUE? (I find it and Tabula Rasa the funniest episodes of the series) I think when INTERVENTION rolls around, you know if you are going to be a major Spuffy or not. (or at least be leaning that way) Certainly by the time you watch THE GIFT, you are a goner if you are going to be.
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Excellent! Oh - and it was his concern that Buffy would die that made him give up his humanity in IWRY! I really, really, really like your theory! (And of course 'settling down being happy ever after' was as utterly impossible for Buffy at the beginning of S6 - she'd been torn out from utter bliss, and even a 'dream life' with Angel must have felt like a burden!)
You only have to tempt me so many times.
Yay! And don't worry I don't usually force stuff on people at all,
and I was too lazy to write out the main pointsbut it just seemed to be relevant to what we've been talking about recently."It could never be just a hello," is a good line and right in place in their relationship.
Thank you! The whole thing was pretty much built around that line. (And I found it very odd that B/A shippers liked it too - I mean of course I did my very best to be neutral, but they obviously want something from relationships that is far different from what I'm looking for!)
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I'm sorry about all the self-pimping, but I put an awful lot of work into this thing and it explains my thoughts on the whole business!
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Chicken Wings = Spicy Hot Wings=Spike in FFL..
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I think 'Fool For Love' will probably show us how he feels - although I have an inkling that he'll come down pro-Spike. In 'Lovers Walk' he said (re. broken down pathetic Spike) 'I get it - this *is* the real Spike, isn't it?' At least I can't see him turning into a Spike-hater, he's far too rational for that!
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Hmm. Not me. I was perfectly happy with Buffy being nice to Spike and Spike learning to live with the chip due to her help in Intervention. But Crush just made it seem impossibly unlikely and probably just plain impossible. I didn't want them together. Even in The Gift I thought the Spike & Buffy was charming but not romantic.
But Afterlife — ahhh, Afterlife. That was when I knew.
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Cookie dough ice cream in IWRY repeated with ice cream after Flooded and cookie dough Buffy in Chosen.
Hot wings in FFL repeated with fried chicken in Life Serial.
Willow's cookies in Something Blue repeated with cookie Buffy in Chosen.
Buffy's low fat yoghurt in Faith, Hope, and Trick repeated with Angel disliking only the yoghurt in IWRY.
Are there any more? What does the ice cream in TGiQ represent?
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I'm projecting here, aren't I? :D
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And yeah, I'm anxious to see what AOQ thinks of Something Blue. I honestly have no idea if he'll like it or not. His sense of humor is... occasionally, not so much.
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Or is it the Ice Cream thing where you indulge when you finally get what you really want in IWRY?
I figured it was probably just ordinary ice cream therapy and added back a few pounds Buffy lost in later seasons to reflect the choice of comfort food, but that was before considering the meaning of ice cream symbolism in AtS.
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And he loved 'Pangs' so we might be in luck!
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Must get round to reading your fic one of these days...