Mmmm...indeed!! Gods, the Doctor and Master working as one! The universe would shiver with ecstacy before dying with a scream. My dark!Muse is happy with this idea.
But I'm mad at her right now. No treats for her!! Got THREE guys as Master in my head now and I'm sulking in my corner over my tea.
Mmmm...indeed!! Gods, the Doctor and Master working as one! The universe would shiver with ecstacy before dying with a scream. My dark!Muse is happy with this idea. This, pretty much. :)
But I'm mad at her right now. No treats for her!! Got THREE guys as Master in my head now and I'm sulking in my corner over my tea. LOL. And here's the perfect icon!
Of all the Doctors, I think Ten was maybe the most apt to go bad (he teetered on the brink more than once). I think that's why the Master was such a wake-up call for him. By the end of season three, he was starting down the slippery slope to becoming a kind of Master himself.
People used to whinge about Six being "bad," but really, Six at his worst was just a bully and a blowhard. Ten had that quiet, subtle darkness about him that was IMO a hell of a lot more menacing. I think the regeneration (dying to save Wilf, who was so thoroughly good) was in a sense a purge of that darkness (some of it, anyway). Eleven has a much gentler nature, though he can have his bad-ass moments, too.
The Doctor and the Master as allies would tear the universe apart. I could just imagine the glee with which they'd bring down the Daleks, then have tea (and maybe a nice shag) afterwards. ; )
Of all the Doctors, I think Ten was maybe the most apt to go bad (he teetered on the brink more than once). I'd say he jumped off the brink without a parachute in WoM, and then managed to climb back... *g*
I think that's why the Master was such a wake-up call for him. By the end of season three, he was starting down the slippery slope to becoming a kind of Master himself. Mmmmm, mirrors. It's what made me fall into obsession.
People used to whinge about Six being "bad," but really, Six at his worst was just a bully and a blowhard. I'm not familiar with Six, but from what I've heard he's just very arrogant. Which is different from bad.
Ten had that quiet, subtle darkness about him that was IMO a hell of a lot more menacing. Aaaand I'll throw meta at you! The first one is Why Ten is like Wesley, and how their darkness/danger is very similar, and the second is (I guess) my 'final word' on how I see Ten - not that I will never talk about him, but I sorta poured everything into this: The Hollow Men. (Tenth Doctor Meta.)
I think the regeneration (dying to save Wilf, who was so thoroughly good) was in a sense a purge of that darkness (some of it, anyway). Oh totally. Ten was a ticking timebomb. Regeneration diffused it.
Eleven has a much gentler nature, though he can have his bad-ass moments, too. Eleven has internalised a lot of the darkness in a much healthier way? He doesn't need the Master in order to face himself. (Oh AGMGTW, how much do I love thee?)
The Doctor and the Master as allies would tear the universe apart. I could just imagine the glee with which they'd bring down the Daleks, then have tea (and maybe a nice shag) afterwards. ; ) Mmmmmm. Ten and Simm!Master. ♥ ♥ ♥ (Mind you, I have a fic that I REALLY should finish... It's about Eleven turning the tables. It's delicious.)
LOL. It's always fun reading people's analyses of this show and realizing how much I work out in my fanfic. I also love seeing how the ideas of others line up with my own. It's like a shared brain. : )
For a show where the Doctor is ostensibly the hero, they're not afraid to show him very messed up, to show that the choice he made in the Time War will haunt him forever. He's really scarred. There were difficult experiences he had in the old series, but being forced to commit genocide against his own species is on a completely different level. He is indeed "The hollow man." I'm amazed that there's this much darkness and complexity in what's ostensibly a family-friendly show. I love that the Brits evidently believe that kids are capable of processing so much moral complexity and ambiguity.
One interesting thing about season six is that, at the end, Eleven barely even registers Madame Kovarian's presence in the pyramid. He's so focused on River. And there's the cause of so much anguish to his friends, sitting tied up in a chair, and it's like she might as well not even be there. I love that it's Amy, who she arguably hurt the most, who 'kills' her (even though it doesn't stick). That whole scene is so interesting. (Kind of a digression, here, I know). Part of me thinks Ten would have stood there and angrily lectured her until she died of boredom in the chair. : )
Internalized darkness... hmm. I love the scene in Vampires of Venice when Eleven tells Rosanna that he'll tear down the House of Calviari stone by stone. And when her henchman comes, he says, "Take your hands off me, Carlo," without even raising his voice. I think part of the reason he loves Amy and Rory so much is they're like children to him, and they're so full of innate goodness. They're not just good company, they bring light to the darkness. Without people like them, the darkness he exhibits in this scene would eventually overwhelm him.
In the old series, Six was very polarizing. A lot of people hated him, and poor Colin Baker got the sack, despite being a pretty terrific Doctor. He also was saddled with possibly the two worst companions in the entire history of the series. But his Doctor mainly was arrogant, which Colin wanted deliberately as a throwback to the First Doctor, who was an arrogant old coot. I think Ten (and to a lesser extent both Nine and Eleven) have exhibited much more genuine badness. Although you can tell he just hates that part of himself.
Wilf was another one of those very good people who generally keep the Doctor going. I think he'd found a real kindred spirit there.
I would love to see how the Master would react to Eleven... wonder if we'll get to see that before Matt leaves the show.
Sorry for the ramble! Thanks so much for sharing your wonderful meta. At some point I'll link you to some of my fanfics (they're long, be warned!). Some are just fluffy, but two or three are me hashing out how I feel about different aspects of the show.
LOL. It's always fun reading people's analyses of this show and realizing how much I work out in my fanfic. I also love seeing how the ideas of others line up with my own. It's like a shared brain. : ) ALLLLLLL my fic is thinly disguised meta. But sometimes meta-meta works better. You don't have to worry about plot so much when you write an essay. *g* (And I know exactly what you mean. I share my brain with several people, most notably promethia_tenk.
There were difficult experiences he had in the old series, but being forced to commit genocide against his own species is on a completely different level. He is indeed "The hollow man." I think this is one reason the new show stands so well on its own. They were essentially starting over again. Which is why Ten comes across as younger than his previous selves in many ways - he is coming to terms with experiences that are completely new.
I'm amazed that there's this much darkness and complexity in what's ostensibly a family-friendly show. I love that the Brits evidently believe that kids are capable of processing so much moral complexity and ambiguity. It's a fine line, but if it doesn't make the children hide behind the sofa, it's doing it wrong. Today's grandparents grew up being terrified of the Daleks... Which isn't quite what you were saying, but everyone readily accepts that the show needs to be dark/scary and those things overlap. (Moffat of course is fond of saying that it's a proper fairy tale, and it's how we teach our children that thw world is dangerous. Love Moffat.)
One interesting thing about season six is that, at the end, Eleven barely even registers Madame Kovarian's presence in the pyramid. You know, that's something I'd never really thought of (since I, uh, might be focussed on River/Doctor...), but it's an excellent point - although I was always pleased that Amy was the one to tackle her. That felt very right.
. Part of me thinks Ten would have stood there and angrily lectured her until she died of boredom in the chair. : ) Oh god. I can picture it quite clearly now. (It is WRONG to kidnap poor innocent babies.../Oh someone kill me already.)
Internalized darkness... hmm. I love the scene in Vampires of Venice when Eleven tells Rosanna that he'll tear down the House of Calviari stone by stone. And when her henchman comes, he says, "Take your hands off me, Carlo," without even raising his voice. Mmmmmm. Or how he goes 'Oh the Dreamlord was me wasn't that obvious?' He is aware of that darkness, and doesn't try to pretend it isn't there. (You might be interested in another of my essays The Tragedy and Death of the Lonely God and the Rise of the Trickster. Or: How Moffat re-booted DW.)
I think part of the reason he loves Amy and Rory so much is they're like children to him, and they're so full of innate goodness. They're not just good company, they bring light to the darkness. Without people like them, the darkness he exhibits in this scene would eventually overwhelm him. Actually I love the fact that he retires when he loses them. He doesn't go mad or crazy or try to tear the universe apart. No sign of the Timelord Victorious. He just gives up. He can't do it without them, she he won't even try.
ALLLLLLL my fic is thinly disguised meta. But sometimes meta-meta works better. You don't have to worry about plot so much when you write an essay. *g* (And I know exactly what you mean. I share my brain with several people, most notably promethia_tenk.
Ooh, good person to share a brain with! I love her DW commentary. I often have loads of thoughts in my head about the show, but rarely get them out in a proper essay--I somehow find it easier to just write a story.
It's a fine line, but if it doesn't make the children hide behind the sofa, it's doing it wrong. Today's grandparents grew up being terrified of the Daleks... Which isn't quite what you were saying, but everyone readily accepts that the show needs to be dark/scary and those things overlap. (Moffat of course is fond of saying that it's a proper fairy tale, and it's how we teach our children that thw world is dangerous. Love Moffat.)
Right. And there's a difference between scary and gory. It's amazing how terrifying DW can be with such a small amount of gore/ overt violence. The Weeping Angels are a perfect example. The way they creep up on you is just skin-crawling. And they zap you back into a past you can never get out of. By the time you reach your own time again, you're either dead from old age or very close to it. (Not sure what that teaches children, LOL, except to be constantly looking behind you). : )
One interesting thing about season six is that, at the end, Eleven barely even registers Madame Kovarian's presence in the pyramid. You know, that's something I'd never really thought of (since I, uh, might be focussed on River/Doctor...), but it's an excellent point - although I was always pleased that Amy was the one to tackle her. That felt very right.
LOL, I love Eleven-River in that scene, too. His lack of attention to Kovarian wasn't something I really paid attention to at the time. It hit me later. But it serves two purposes if you think about it. One, she's kind of a diva, so one of the things she'd probably find intolerable is people not paying attention to her. Two, the Doctor is actually in the Tessalecta in this scene, so he probably wouldn't want to get too close to Kovarian, lest she figure it out. The success of his whole scheme hinges on everyone believing he's actually dead.
WRT to Amy, the thing that made me laugh the hardest is that as she and Rory are walking away, and she's proposing marriage to him, you can still hear Kovarian screaming in the background.
Part of me thinks Ten would have stood there and angrily lectured her until she died of boredom in the chair. : ) Oh god. I can picture it quite clearly now. (It is WRONG to kidnap poor innocent babies.../Oh someone kill me already.)
LOL! Yes, Ten would not be able to resist going all Ranty McRantcakes on her, complete with flying spittle, flailing arms, and general over-the-top histrionics.
'Oh the Dreamlord was me wasn't that obvious?' He is aware of that darkness, and doesn't try to pretend it isn't there. (You might be interested in another of my essays The Tragedy and Death of the Lonely God and the Rise of the Trickster. Or: How Moffat re-booted DW.)
I can see I'm going to be doing a lot of reading. : )
Actually I love the fact that he retires when he loses them. He doesn't go mad or crazy or try to tear the universe apart. No sign of the Timelord Victorious. He just gives up. He can't do it without them, she he won't even try.
Well, they're not just companions. They're family. Even though this is (kind of frustratingly) never stated outright, he HAD to feel closer to the Ponds than he did to a lot of his other companions. He married their daughter! Plus, he knew Amy when she was a little kid, and I think he had that sense of knowing her for so much of her life. He also must have been aware of having to a certain extent shaped her character, and that's probably part of why he felt very protective of her and responsible for her well-being. It's such an interesting dynamic.
Ooh, good person to share a brain with! I love her DW commentary. HALF OF IT IS MINE! *cackles* (Now and again I wonder what I did before I found her. 'Tis a strange and lonely place.)
I often have loads of thoughts in my head about the show, but rarely get them out in a proper essay--I somehow find it easier to just write a story. It depends on the subject... There are some of my fics which are very much my way of tackling a subject, and if anyone asks, I'll point them to the fic. But sometimes only meta will do...
Right. And there's a difference between scary and gory. It's amazing how terrifying DW can be with such a small amount of gore/ overt violence. Exactly.
(Not sure what that teaches children, LOL, except to be constantly looking behind you). : ) Well the idea comes from a children's game (called Grandmother's steps) where people can move as long as they're not being watched, so every time you turn, everyone has moved closer... Moffat just took that further. *g*
LOL, I love Eleven-River in that scene, too. His lack of attention to Kovarian wasn't something I really paid attention to at the time. It hit me later. Happens to me a lot too...
But it serves two purposes if you think about it. One, she's kind of a diva, so one of the things she'd probably find intolerable is people not paying attention to her. Two, the Doctor is actually in the Tessalecta in this scene, so he probably wouldn't want to get too close to Kovarian, lest she figure it out. The success of his whole scheme hinges on everyone believing he's actually dead. Mmmmm, very true. :)
WRT to Amy, the thing that made me laugh the hardest is that as she and Rory are walking away, and she's proposing marriage to him, you can still hear Kovarian screaming in the background. (River didn't get it all from you, Sweetie!) Badass!Amy is the best.
LOL! Yes, Ten would not be able to resist going all Ranty McRantcakes on her, complete with flying spittle, flailing arms, and general over-the-top histrionics. I... am going to have to send you something. Later. You'll appreciate it!
I can see I'm going to be doing a lot of reading. : ) Only if you feel like it! But all my arguments are looooong, so rather than try to summarise stuff I just link people. It's a thing. If you're curious, have a look. But be warned: I ramble to the nth degree.
Well, they're not just companions. They're family. Even though this is (kind of frustratingly) never stated outright, he HAD to feel closer to the Ponds than he did to a lot of his other companions. Oh absolutely. Plus, they were with him for 300 years (his time). He had Rose for 2.
Plus, he knew Amy when she was a little kid, and I think he had that sense of knowing her for so much of her life. He also must have been aware of having to a certain extent shaped her character, and that's probably part of why he felt very protective of her and responsible for her well-being. It's such an interesting dynamic. Well they shaped each other. (I *love* that this was made canon in The Power of Three.) The 'grew up' together, and as you say, that's one reason their dynamic was so fascinating.
He also was saddled with possibly the two worst companions in the entire history of the series. But his Doctor mainly was arrogant, which Colin wanted deliberately as a throwback to the First Doctor, who was an arrogant old coot. One was a rebellious teenager who wouldn't listen to anyone! *g* (Mind you, that arrogance is definitely a true Doctor/Timelord trait, and I love it. You might like my Alex 'verse... *g*)
I think Ten (and to a lesser extent both Nine and Eleven) have exhibited much more genuine badness. Although you can tell he just hates that part of himself. 'Did you ever think you would become this? The man who can turn around an army at the mention of his name?'
Wilf was another one of those very good people who generally keep the Doctor going. I think he'd found a real kindred spirit there. Wilf was who he wanted to be, I think.
I would love to see how the Master would react to Eleven... wonder if we'll get to see that before Matt leaves the show. *prays*
Sorry for the ramble! Never apologise for rambling! (I need to re-upload my rambling icon...) Rambling always encouraged here. :D
Thanks so much for sharing your wonderful meta. At some point I'll link you to some of my fanfics (they're long, be warned!). Some are just fluffy, but two or three are me hashing out how I feel about different aspects of the show. Totally my pleasure, and I'm sure I'll link you to my fic too. I'll be a mutual fic-meta lovefest.
I'd be very surprised if we don't get at least a Master cameo during the 50th. But Simm-Master is really more of RTD's creation, and I'm not sure how much Moff is going to tip his hat in Russell's direction. Plus, I'm sure there will be time limits. Moff can't cram every last thing into the 50th anniversary special.
The fics of mine you might find the most interesting are:
They're all multiple-chapter stories, fairly long. Like I said, story plus meta. : ) The rest are mostly Ten shipperfics. I shipped him with EVERYONE--Rose, Reinette, River. I even wrote a crossover with Bend it Like Beckham so I could ship him with Keira Knightley. : )
I'd be very surprised if we don't get at least a Master cameo during the 50th. But Simm-Master is really more of RTD's creation, and I'm not sure how much Moff is going to tip his hat in Russell's direction. *nods* Eleven has internalised & accepted a lot of his darkness, plus there's River - what exactly the Master's role would be I don't know. But I'd love to see it. :)
The fics of mine you might find the most interesting are: Thank you! And story + meta is my favourite! :)
The rest are mostly Ten shipperfics. I shipped him with EVERYONE--Rose, Reinette, River. I even wrote a crossover with Bend it Like Beckham so I could ship him with Keira Knightley. : ) Ah yes, Ten the alien slut boi... You've seen this vid, right?
And I'm happy to ship him with almost anyone. I still remember that whilst parts of my flist were furious after TGiF (OMG WHAT WAS THAT FRENCH H0R DOING WITH ROSE'S DOCTOR?!?) I was thrilled to pieces that he got laid! *g* ETA2: Personal head canon: Ten lost his virginity to Reinette, Eleven lost his to Marilyn.
ETA: OMG I actually edited my masterpost. It's now up to date with all the relevant fic. Damn. You are clearly a good motivator. Will get back to your other comment later.
Thanks for the fic list and the LJ master list. I hope to delve into some of these this weekend. It's my sister's 50th birthday celebration, but it will probably end up smaller than expected due to an impending blizzard (yes, ANOTHER one). So I'm hoping I'll have some quiet "me" time on Saturday night to ensconce myself in the world of Who (and decompress from the hours of Enforced Family Time). : )
LOL about your updating your master list; I'm happy to be a good influence!
The video made me cry with laughter. Too funny! Oh Ten, you intergalactic Casanova! Also, I love the canon that Madame de P was Ten's first and Marilyn was Eleven's. That's a great idea. My headcanon is that the Master was the Doctor's first love interest, an experience that has led him to be sexually subordinate for the rest of his life. (I think about the Doctor's sex life entirely too much).
It's funny, I really had no "OTP" when it came to Ten, and to the Doctor in general. I love shipping him with a variety of characters and imagining how he would act/ react with each partner. I loved him with Rose, but I also loved Reinette. I wrote a two-part fic crossover with the first two Underworld movies. Sophia Myles played a kind of junior vampire in the first movie, so I came up with the idea that Reinette never actually died; she was turned into a vampire on her deathbed, and Ten meets her when he stumbles into the vampire-werewolf war. As much as I love Rose, I had so much fun writing Ten-Reinette in those two stories.
It also amuses me that while I could ship Ten with just about anyone, I can only ship Eleven with River. Not that I can't imagine them in a non-monogamous marriage--it seems pretty clear that River has had other liasons during the time of their marriage, though she does seem to consider Eleven her 'true' love. It's just that Smith and Kingston have such amazing chemistry together, I really don't feel like trying to write Eleven with another character. It wouldn't be the same. : )
Okay, I'm procrastinating--time to get back to work!
I hope to delve into some of these this weekend. It's my sister's 50th birthday celebration, but it will probably end up smaller than expected due to an impending blizzard (yes, ANOTHER one). Well a very happy birthday to your sister, and I hope the blizzard is small and not a bother. And that you have a lovely time with your family. <3
So I'm hoping I'll have some quiet "me" time on Saturday night to ensconce myself in the world of Who (and decompress from the hours of Enforced Family Time). : ) I am happy to help! *g*
LOL about your updating your master list; I'm happy to be a good influence! Thank you again! I prefer people to read on LJ, mostly because it's easier to chat on LJ.
The video made me cry with laughter. Too funny! Oh Ten, you intergalactic Casanova! Well, playing Casanova was basically his audition for the Doctor, so... *raises eyebrow* (I found a vid! 'Tis rather lovely.)
Also, I love the canon that Madame de P was Ten's first and Marilyn was Eleven's. That's a great idea. It just makes sense. *g*
My headcanon is that the Master was the Doctor's first love interest, an experience that has led him to be sexually subordinate for the rest of his life. (I think about the Doctor's sex life entirely too much). *snerk* You've read the naming of things, right? (Summary: How to become the Master.) If not, then make that your Saturday reading, omg. It is my personal canon to an extent I can't begin to describe. Unbelievably good.
Sophia Myles played a kind of junior vampire in the first movie, so I came up with the idea that Reinette never actually died; she was turned into a vampire on her deathbed, and Ten meets her when he stumbles into the vampire-werewolf war. As much as I love Rose, I had so much fun writing Ten-Reinette in those two stories. Fascinating. You make me want to re-watch the Underworld movies, it's been forever.
It also amuses me that while I could ship Ten with just about anyone, I can only ship Eleven with River. Not that I can't imagine them in a non-monogamous marriage--it seems pretty clear that River has had other liasons during the time of their marriage, though she does seem to consider Eleven her 'true' love. It's just that Smith and Kingston have such amazing chemistry together, I really don't feel like trying to write Eleven with another character. It wouldn't be the same. : ) Promethia and I have arguments about River's fidelity. However, I'm a staunch believer in River/Eleven/Marilyn. I even wrote fic, but then it was jossed and I need to fix it or... something. Will probably get back to it at some point, for now I'm busy with my AU OC-centric 'verse about the Master's son. It's novel length, but eating my head and I love it to distraction. So... I just go with it. (Mostly shorter stories, except for the current WIP which is endless.) Anyway, I'll shut up, as I am half-asleep. Thanks for all the comments, they're marvellous. <3
Just a quick note to say that Casanova vid is amazing! OMG, Tennant looks so young there. He said in an interview he auditioned as kind of a lark; he really didn't think he'd get the job. He's very hot there, but also kind of geeky and sad, which makes him even more irresistible.
Well now I just want to write the epic tragic dark AU where the Master and River team up and end up convincing the Doctor to take over the world with them and uh.
omg self you have too many r/l obligations for this, not to mention fic obligations D:
Well now I just want to write the epic tragic dark AU where the Master and River team up and end up convincing the Doctor to take over the world with them and uh. You know, it's not something I'd ever considered. Mostly because I think the Master is the only person in whole universe that River would consider a proper rival. And the fact that the Master is all about hurting the Doctor is something River would never tolerate. I can't imagine them teaming up, but I'm sure you could make it work. (As it happens I have a semi-written fic with the Master, River and Eleven which I really ought to finish. And it's all about Eleven turning the tables. Mmmmm. Love Eleven's darkness.) ANYWAY. You have intrigued me with your suggestion.
omg self you have too many r/l obligations for this, not to mention fic obligations D: Tell me about it... /o\
Heh, yeah, RTD probably would have actually done it if he could, though I'm not sure it would have actually been a good idea for the show. AU, yes, but the actual show? Not so sure. Adult show or not, there's a limit to how far you can let the main character go and still bring him back (i.e. if you want the show to continue) and he got pretty damn close to it as it was!
Oh I very much agree. He still went too far for a lot of people, and I can see their point.
(It's funny, because one of the things about Eleven is that I'd only ever watched New Who, but once I saw Eleven it was like I had this weird epiphany of 'Oh so THIS is who the Doctor is supposed to be'. Watching Old!Who only confirmed that, but Eleven was the catalyst. And I say that as someone who adored Ten in all his broken glory.)
Yeah, I'm one of them, really. I love angst and drama and dark stuff, but Ten actually got a little too dark even for me. Thank god for Moffat putting him back together again as Eleven!
(Heh, I grew up with Four, and Ten has quite a few similarities with him so it didn't really jar until he lost that insouciance and got all angsty, but yes, Eleven really does feel in some ways like all the old school Doctors put together. One's crotchetiness, Two's playfulness, Three's cool, Four's manicness, Five's calm etc. etc. etc.)
Yeah, I'm one of them, really. I love angst and drama and dark stuff, but Ten actually got a little too dark even for me. Coming from a Buffy background, it didn't read wrong to me until later... But now I can't unsee it.
Thank god for Moffat putting him back together again as Eleven! Amen.
Eleven really does feel in some ways like all the old school Doctors put together. One's crotchetiness, Two's playfulness, Three's cool, Four's manicness, Five's calm etc. etc. etc. And (my favourite) Seven's manipulativeness! :D
Yeah, I came from a Buffy background too, but - perhaps because I grew up with classic Who - I still don't expect my DW to be dark like Buffy. Not on-screen, at least. *g*
Tbh, I haven't seen a lot of Seven (I lost interest around that time and thought I've tried watching a couple of his stories more recently, I just can't really get into him) but yeah, definitely Eleven has the manipulativeness. *nods emphatically*
but - perhaps because I grew up with classic Who - I still don't expect my DW to be dark like Buffy. Not on-screen, at least. *g* I understand that perfectly. They're very different shows!
Tbh, I haven't seen a lot of Seven (I lost interest around that time and thought I've tried watching a couple of his stories more recently, I just can't really get into him) but yeah, definitely Eleven has the manipulativeness. *nods emphatically* The only Classic Doctor I've seen more than a few episodes of is Seven, and he is very much my favourite after Eleven. (Ten is sort of a special case, and exists in a category of his own. *g*)
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*Faints*
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But I'm mad at her right now. No treats for her!! Got THREE guys as Master in my head now and I'm sulking in my corner over my tea.
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This, pretty much. :)
But I'm mad at her right now. No treats for her!! Got THREE guys as Master in my head now and I'm sulking in my corner over my tea.
LOL. And here's the perfect icon!
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*SMISHES*
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OMG, would it ever!
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People used to whinge about Six being "bad," but really, Six at his worst was just a bully and a blowhard. Ten had that quiet, subtle darkness about him that was IMO a hell of a lot more menacing. I think the regeneration (dying to save Wilf, who was so thoroughly good) was in a sense a purge of that darkness (some of it, anyway). Eleven has a much gentler nature, though he can have his bad-ass moments, too.
The Doctor and the Master as allies would tear the universe apart. I could just imagine the glee with which they'd bring down the Daleks, then have tea (and maybe a nice shag) afterwards. ; )
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I'd say he jumped off the brink without a parachute in WoM, and then managed to climb back... *g*
I think that's why the Master was such a wake-up call for him. By the end of season three, he was starting down the slippery slope to becoming a kind of Master himself.
Mmmmm, mirrors. It's what made me fall into obsession.
People used to whinge about Six being "bad," but really, Six at his worst was just a bully and a blowhard.
I'm not familiar with Six, but from what I've heard he's just very arrogant. Which is different from bad.
Ten had that quiet, subtle darkness about him that was IMO a hell of a lot more menacing.
Aaaand I'll throw meta at you! The first one is Why Ten is like Wesley, and how their darkness/danger is very similar, and the second is (I guess) my 'final word' on how I see Ten - not that I will never talk about him, but I sorta poured everything into this: The Hollow Men. (Tenth Doctor Meta.)
I think the regeneration (dying to save Wilf, who was so thoroughly good) was in a sense a purge of that darkness (some of it, anyway).
Oh totally. Ten was a ticking timebomb. Regeneration diffused it.
Eleven has a much gentler nature, though he can have his bad-ass moments, too.
Eleven has internalised a lot of the darkness in a much healthier way? He doesn't need the Master in order to face himself. (Oh AGMGTW, how much do I love thee?)
The Doctor and the Master as allies would tear the universe apart. I could just imagine the glee with which they'd bring down the Daleks, then have tea (and maybe a nice shag) afterwards. ; )
Mmmmmm. Ten and Simm!Master. ♥ ♥ ♥ (Mind you, I have a fic that I REALLY should finish... It's about Eleven turning the tables. It's delicious.)
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For a show where the Doctor is ostensibly the hero, they're not afraid to show him very messed up, to show that the choice he made in the Time War will haunt him forever. He's really scarred. There were difficult experiences he had in the old series, but being forced to commit genocide against his own species is on a completely different level. He is indeed "The hollow man." I'm amazed that there's this much darkness and complexity in what's ostensibly a family-friendly show. I love that the Brits evidently believe that kids are capable of processing so much moral complexity and ambiguity.
One interesting thing about season six is that, at the end, Eleven barely even registers Madame Kovarian's presence in the pyramid. He's so focused on River. And there's the cause of so much anguish to his friends, sitting tied up in a chair, and it's like she might as well not even be there. I love that it's Amy, who she arguably hurt the most, who 'kills' her (even though it doesn't stick). That whole scene is so interesting. (Kind of a digression, here, I know). Part of me thinks Ten would have stood there and angrily lectured her until she died of boredom in the chair. : )
Internalized darkness... hmm. I love the scene in Vampires of Venice when Eleven tells Rosanna that he'll tear down the House of Calviari stone by stone. And when her henchman comes, he says, "Take your hands off me, Carlo," without even raising his voice. I think part of the reason he loves Amy and Rory so much is they're like children to him, and they're so full of innate goodness. They're not just good company, they bring light to the darkness. Without people like them, the darkness he exhibits in this scene would eventually overwhelm him.
In the old series, Six was very polarizing. A lot of people hated him, and poor Colin Baker got the sack, despite being a pretty terrific Doctor. He also was saddled with possibly the two worst companions in the entire history of the series. But his Doctor mainly was arrogant, which Colin wanted deliberately as a throwback to the First Doctor, who was an arrogant old coot. I think Ten (and to a lesser extent both Nine and Eleven) have exhibited much more genuine badness. Although you can tell he just hates that part of himself.
Wilf was another one of those very good people who generally keep the Doctor going. I think he'd found a real kindred spirit there.
I would love to see how the Master would react to Eleven... wonder if we'll get to see that before Matt leaves the show.
Sorry for the ramble! Thanks so much for sharing your wonderful meta. At some point I'll link you to some of my fanfics (they're long, be warned!). Some are just fluffy, but two or three are me hashing out how I feel about different aspects of the show.
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ALLLLLLL my fic is thinly disguised meta. But sometimes meta-meta works better. You don't have to worry about plot so much when you write an essay. *g* (And I know exactly what you mean. I share my brain with several people, most notably
There were difficult experiences he had in the old series, but being forced to commit genocide against his own species is on a completely different level. He is indeed "The hollow man."
I think this is one reason the new show stands so well on its own. They were essentially starting over again. Which is why Ten comes across as younger than his previous selves in many ways - he is coming to terms with experiences that are completely new.
I'm amazed that there's this much darkness and complexity in what's ostensibly a family-friendly show. I love that the Brits evidently believe that kids are capable of processing so much moral complexity and ambiguity.
It's a fine line, but if it doesn't make the children hide behind the sofa, it's doing it wrong. Today's grandparents grew up being terrified of the Daleks... Which isn't quite what you were saying, but everyone readily accepts that the show needs to be dark/scary and those things overlap. (Moffat of course is fond of saying that it's a proper fairy tale, and it's how we teach our children that thw world is dangerous. Love Moffat.)
One interesting thing about season six is that, at the end, Eleven barely even registers Madame Kovarian's presence in the pyramid.
You know, that's something I'd never really thought of (since I, uh, might be focussed on River/Doctor...), but it's an excellent point - although I was always pleased that Amy was the one to tackle her. That felt very right.
. Part of me thinks Ten would have stood there and angrily lectured her until she died of boredom in the chair. : )
Oh god. I can picture it quite clearly now. (It is WRONG to kidnap poor innocent babies.../Oh someone kill me already.)
Internalized darkness... hmm. I love the scene in Vampires of Venice when Eleven tells Rosanna that he'll tear down the House of Calviari stone by stone. And when her henchman comes, he says, "Take your hands off me, Carlo," without even raising his voice.
Mmmmmm. Or how he goes 'Oh the Dreamlord was me wasn't that obvious?' He is aware of that darkness, and doesn't try to pretend it isn't there. (You might be interested in another of my essays The Tragedy and Death of the Lonely God and the Rise of the Trickster. Or: How Moffat re-booted DW.)
I think part of the reason he loves Amy and Rory so much is they're like children to him, and they're so full of innate goodness. They're not just good company, they bring light to the darkness. Without people like them, the darkness he exhibits in this scene would eventually overwhelm him.
Actually I love the fact that he retires when he loses them. He doesn't go mad or crazy or try to tear the universe apart. No sign of the Timelord Victorious. He just gives up. He can't do it without them, she he won't even try.
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Ooh, good person to share a brain with! I love her DW commentary. I often have loads of thoughts in my head about the show, but rarely get them out in a proper essay--I somehow find it easier to just write a story.
It's a fine line, but if it doesn't make the children hide behind the sofa, it's doing it wrong. Today's grandparents grew up being terrified of the Daleks... Which isn't quite what you were saying, but everyone readily accepts that the show needs to be dark/scary and those things overlap. (Moffat of course is fond of saying that it's a proper fairy tale, and it's how we teach our children that thw world is dangerous. Love Moffat.)
Right. And there's a difference between scary and gory. It's amazing how terrifying DW can be with such a small amount of gore/ overt violence. The Weeping Angels are a perfect example. The way they creep up on you is just skin-crawling. And they zap you back into a past you can never get out of. By the time you reach your own time again, you're either dead from old age or very close to it. (Not sure what that teaches children, LOL, except to be constantly looking behind you). : )
One interesting thing about season six is that, at the end, Eleven barely even registers Madame Kovarian's presence in the pyramid.
You know, that's something I'd never really thought of (since I, uh, might be focussed on River/Doctor...), but it's an excellent point - although I was always pleased that Amy was the one to tackle her. That felt very right.
LOL, I love Eleven-River in that scene, too. His lack of attention to Kovarian wasn't something I really paid attention to at the time. It hit me later. But it serves two purposes if you think about it. One, she's kind of a diva, so one of the things she'd probably find intolerable is people not paying attention to her. Two, the Doctor is actually in the Tessalecta in this scene, so he probably wouldn't want to get too close to Kovarian, lest she figure it out. The success of his whole scheme hinges on everyone believing he's actually dead.
WRT to Amy, the thing that made me laugh the hardest is that as she and Rory are walking away, and she's proposing marriage to him, you can still hear Kovarian screaming in the background.
Part of me thinks Ten would have stood there and angrily lectured her until she died of boredom in the chair. : )
Oh god. I can picture it quite clearly now. (It is WRONG to kidnap poor innocent babies.../Oh someone kill me already.)
LOL! Yes, Ten would not be able to resist going all Ranty McRantcakes on her, complete with flying spittle, flailing arms, and general over-the-top histrionics.
'Oh the Dreamlord was me wasn't that obvious?' He is aware of that darkness, and doesn't try to pretend it isn't there. (You might be interested in another of my essays The Tragedy and Death of the Lonely God and the Rise of the Trickster. Or: How Moffat re-booted DW.)
I can see I'm going to be doing a lot of reading. : )
Actually I love the fact that he retires when he loses them. He doesn't go mad or crazy or try to tear the universe apart. No sign of the Timelord Victorious. He just gives up. He can't do it without them, she he won't even try.
Well, they're not just companions. They're family. Even though this is (kind of frustratingly) never stated outright, he HAD to feel closer to the Ponds than he did to a lot of his other companions. He married their daughter! Plus, he knew Amy when she was a little kid, and I think he had that sense of knowing her for so much of her life. He also must have been aware of having to a certain extent shaped her character, and that's probably part of why he felt very protective of her and responsible for her well-being. It's such an interesting dynamic.
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HALF OF IT IS MINE! *cackles* (Now and again I wonder what I did before I found her. 'Tis a strange and lonely place.)
I often have loads of thoughts in my head about the show, but rarely get them out in a proper essay--I somehow find it easier to just write a story.
It depends on the subject... There are some of my fics which are very much my way of tackling a subject, and if anyone asks, I'll point them to the fic. But sometimes only meta will do...
Right. And there's a difference between scary and gory. It's amazing how terrifying DW can be with such a small amount of gore/ overt violence.
Exactly.
(Not sure what that teaches children, LOL, except to be constantly looking behind you). : )
Well the idea comes from a children's game (called Grandmother's steps) where people can move as long as they're not being watched, so every time you turn, everyone has moved closer... Moffat just took that further. *g*
LOL, I love Eleven-River in that scene, too. His lack of attention to Kovarian wasn't something I really paid attention to at the time. It hit me later.
Happens to me a lot too...
But it serves two purposes if you think about it. One, she's kind of a diva, so one of the things she'd probably find intolerable is people not paying attention to her. Two, the Doctor is actually in the Tessalecta in this scene, so he probably wouldn't want to get too close to Kovarian, lest she figure it out. The success of his whole scheme hinges on everyone believing he's actually dead.
Mmmmm, very true. :)
WRT to Amy, the thing that made me laugh the hardest is that as she and Rory are walking away, and she's proposing marriage to him, you can still hear Kovarian screaming in the background.
(River didn't get it all from you, Sweetie!) Badass!Amy is the best.
LOL! Yes, Ten would not be able to resist going all Ranty McRantcakes on her, complete with flying spittle, flailing arms, and general over-the-top histrionics.
I... am going to have to send you something. Later. You'll appreciate it!
I can see I'm going to be doing a lot of reading. : )
Only if you feel like it! But all my arguments are looooong, so rather than try to summarise stuff I just link people. It's a thing. If you're curious, have a look. But be warned: I ramble to the nth degree.
Well, they're not just companions. They're family. Even though this is (kind of frustratingly) never stated outright, he HAD to feel closer to the Ponds than he did to a lot of his other companions.
Oh absolutely. Plus, they were with him for 300 years (his time). He had Rose for 2.
Plus, he knew Amy when she was a little kid, and I think he had that sense of knowing her for so much of her life. He also must have been aware of having to a certain extent shaped her character, and that's probably part of why he felt very protective of her and responsible for her well-being. It's such an interesting dynamic.
Well they shaped each other. (I *love* that this was made canon in The Power of Three.) The 'grew up' together, and as you say, that's one reason their dynamic was so fascinating.
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One was a rebellious teenager who wouldn't listen to anyone! *g* (Mind you, that arrogance is definitely a true Doctor/Timelord trait, and I love it. You might like my Alex 'verse... *g*)
I think Ten (and to a lesser extent both Nine and Eleven) have exhibited much more genuine badness. Although you can tell he just hates that part of himself.
'Did you ever think you would become this? The man who can turn around an army at the mention of his name?'
Wilf was another one of those very good people who generally keep the Doctor going. I think he'd found a real kindred spirit there.
Wilf was who he wanted to be, I think.
I would love to see how the Master would react to Eleven... wonder if we'll get to see that before Matt leaves the show.
*prays*
Sorry for the ramble!
Never apologise for rambling! (I need to re-upload my rambling icon...) Rambling always encouraged here. :D
Thanks so much for sharing your wonderful meta. At some point I'll link you to some of my fanfics (they're long, be warned!). Some are just fluffy, but two or three are me hashing out how I feel about different aspects of the show.
Totally my pleasure, and I'm sure I'll link you to my fic too. I'll be a mutual fic-meta lovefest.
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The fics of mine you might find the most interesting are:
Sympathy for the Devil (Ten-Master)
http://www.whofic.com/viewstory.php?sid=47078&chapter=1
What a Fool Believes (Eleven-River, plus bonus Amy-Rory)
http://www.whofic.com/viewstory.php?sid=47254&chapter=1
Half-Sick of Shadows (more Eleven-River, plus a boatload of other characters)
http://www.whofic.com/viewstory.php?sid=47305&chapter=1
They're all multiple-chapter stories, fairly long. Like I said, story plus meta. : ) The rest are mostly Ten shipperfics. I shipped him with EVERYONE--Rose, Reinette, River. I even wrote a crossover with Bend it Like Beckham so I could ship him with Keira Knightley. : )
LMK where I can find your stories!
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*nods* Eleven has internalised & accepted a lot of his darkness, plus there's River - what exactly the Master's role would be I don't know. But I'd love to see it. :)
The fics of mine you might find the most interesting are:
Thank you! And story + meta is my favourite! :)
The rest are mostly Ten shipperfics. I shipped him with EVERYONE--Rose, Reinette, River. I even wrote a crossover with Bend it Like Beckham so I could ship him with Keira Knightley. : )
Ah yes, Ten the alien slut boi... You've seen this vid, right?
And I'm happy to ship him with almost anyone. I still remember that whilst parts of my flist were furious after TGiF (OMG WHAT WAS THAT FRENCH H0R DOING WITH ROSE'S DOCTOR?!?) I was thrilled to pieces that he got laid! *g* ETA2: Personal head canon: Ten lost his virginity to Reinette, Eleven lost his to Marilyn.
You can find all my stories on the Teaspoon here:
http://www.whofic.com/viewuser.php?uid=7244
And I am also in the process of updating my LJ masterlist (why do I write so much? *cries*), the relevant part of which is here:
http://elisi.livejournal.com/302013.html#cutid5
ETA: OMG I actually edited my masterpost. It's now up to date with all the relevant fic. Damn. You are clearly a good motivator. Will get back to your other comment later.
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LOL about your updating your master list; I'm happy to be a good influence!
The video made me cry with laughter. Too funny! Oh Ten, you intergalactic Casanova! Also, I love the canon that Madame de P was Ten's first and Marilyn was Eleven's. That's a great idea. My headcanon is that the Master was the Doctor's first love interest, an experience that has led him to be sexually subordinate for the rest of his life. (I think about the Doctor's sex life entirely too much).
It's funny, I really had no "OTP" when it came to Ten, and to the Doctor in general. I love shipping him with a variety of characters and imagining how he would act/ react with each partner. I loved him with Rose, but I also loved Reinette. I wrote a two-part fic crossover with the first two Underworld movies. Sophia Myles played a kind of junior vampire in the first movie, so I came up with the idea that Reinette never actually died; she was turned into a vampire on her deathbed, and Ten meets her when he stumbles into the vampire-werewolf war. As much as I love Rose, I had so much fun writing Ten-Reinette in those two stories.
It also amuses me that while I could ship Ten with just about anyone, I can only ship Eleven with River. Not that I can't imagine them in a non-monogamous marriage--it seems pretty clear that River has had other liasons during the time of their marriage, though she does seem to consider Eleven her 'true' love. It's just that Smith and Kingston have such amazing chemistry together, I really don't feel like trying to write Eleven with another character. It wouldn't be the same. : )
Okay, I'm procrastinating--time to get back to work!
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Well a very happy birthday to your sister, and I hope the blizzard is small and not a bother. And that you have a lovely time with your family. <3
So I'm hoping I'll have some quiet "me" time on Saturday night to ensconce myself in the world of Who (and decompress from the hours of Enforced Family Time). : )
I am happy to help! *g*
LOL about your updating your master list; I'm happy to be a good influence!
Thank you again! I prefer people to read on LJ, mostly because it's easier to chat on LJ.
The video made me cry with laughter. Too funny! Oh Ten, you intergalactic Casanova!
Well, playing Casanova was basically his audition for the Doctor, so... *raises eyebrow* (I found a vid! 'Tis rather lovely.)
Also, I love the canon that Madame de P was Ten's first and Marilyn was Eleven's. That's a great idea.
It just makes sense. *g*
My headcanon is that the Master was the Doctor's first love interest, an experience that has led him to be sexually subordinate for the rest of his life. (I think about the Doctor's sex life entirely too much).
*snerk* You've read the naming of things, right? (Summary: How to become the Master.) If not, then make that your Saturday reading, omg. It is my personal canon to an extent I can't begin to describe. Unbelievably good.
Sophia Myles played a kind of junior vampire in the first movie, so I came up with the idea that Reinette never actually died; she was turned into a vampire on her deathbed, and Ten meets her when he stumbles into the vampire-werewolf war. As much as I love Rose, I had so much fun writing Ten-Reinette in those two stories.
Fascinating. You make me want to re-watch the Underworld movies, it's been forever.
It also amuses me that while I could ship Ten with just about anyone, I can only ship Eleven with River. Not that I can't imagine them in a non-monogamous marriage--it seems pretty clear that River has had other liasons during the time of their marriage, though she does seem to consider Eleven her 'true' love. It's just that Smith and Kingston have such amazing chemistry together, I really don't feel like trying to write Eleven with another character. It wouldn't be the same. : )
Promethia and I have arguments about River's fidelity. However, I'm a staunch believer in River/Eleven/Marilyn. I even wrote fic, but then it was jossed and I need to fix it or... something. Will probably get back to it at some point, for now I'm busy with my AU OC-centric 'verse about the Master's son. It's novel length, but eating my head and I love it to distraction. So... I just go with it. (Mostly shorter stories, except for the current WIP which is endless.) Anyway, I'll shut up, as I am half-asleep. Thanks for all the comments, they're marvellous. <3
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omg self you have too many r/l obligations for this, not to mention fic obligations D:
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You know, it's not something I'd ever considered. Mostly because I think the Master is the only person in whole universe that River would consider a proper rival. And the fact that the Master is all about hurting the Doctor is something River would never tolerate. I can't imagine them teaming up, but I'm sure you could make it work. (As it happens I have a semi-written fic with the Master, River and Eleven which I really ought to finish. And it's all about Eleven turning the tables. Mmmmm. Love Eleven's darkness.) ANYWAY. You have intrigued me with your suggestion.
omg self you have too many r/l obligations for this, not to mention fic obligations D:
Tell me about it... /o\
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(It's funny, because one of the things about Eleven is that I'd only ever watched New Who, but once I saw Eleven it was like I had this weird epiphany of 'Oh so THIS is who the Doctor is supposed to be'. Watching Old!Who only confirmed that, but Eleven was the catalyst. And I say that as someone who adored Ten in all his broken glory.)
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(Heh, I grew up with Four, and Ten has quite a few similarities with him so it didn't really jar until he lost that insouciance and got all angsty, but yes, Eleven really does feel in some ways like all the old school Doctors put together. One's crotchetiness, Two's playfulness, Three's cool, Four's manicness, Five's calm etc. etc. etc.)
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Coming from a Buffy background, it didn't read wrong to me until later... But now I can't unsee it.
Thank god for Moffat putting him back together again as Eleven!
Amen.
Eleven really does feel in some ways like all the old school Doctors put together. One's crotchetiness, Two's playfulness, Three's cool, Four's manicness, Five's calm etc. etc. etc.
And (my favourite) Seven's manipulativeness! :D
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Yeah, I came from a Buffy background too, but - perhaps because I grew up with classic Who - I still don't expect my DW to be dark like Buffy. Not on-screen, at least. *g*
Tbh, I haven't seen a lot of Seven (I lost interest around that time and thought I've tried watching a couple of his stories more recently, I just can't really get into him) but yeah, definitely Eleven has the manipulativeness. *nods emphatically*
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I understand that perfectly. They're very different shows!
Tbh, I haven't seen a lot of Seven (I lost interest around that time and thought I've tried watching a couple of his stories more recently, I just can't really get into him) but yeah, definitely Eleven has the manipulativeness. *nods emphatically*
The only Classic Doctor I've seen more than a few episodes of is Seven, and he is very much my favourite after Eleven. (Ten is sort of a special case, and exists in a category of his own. *g*)