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The Time Lord Victorious, from WoM onwards.
So, I do NOT have time to write this, but it suddenly attacked me and demanded to be written down.
First of all, however, re-posting something I wrote in a comment in a previous post. It's essentially 'Rusty Who in 25 words' I guess. *coughs discreetly*
Basically it's about how Rusty's main issue (the thing he ALWAYS writes about) is [humanity's] monstrousness, and obviously this spilled into DW in increasing amounts.
So, thoughts about Victoriousness under the cut. The main complaint I've heard re. WoM is that it never went anywhere - Ten went all 'The Laws of Time Are MINE!' but then 'snapped out of it'. My question is - did he?
Here's the thing: Adelaide kills herself, and yes, it stops Ten in his tracks. 'I've gone too far!' he says, and then sees Ood Sigma there to summon him for (he presumes) his death. (Considering that he's an atheist, he's surprisingly quick to jump to the conclusion that *someone* wants to punish him for his behaviour. I have... issues with WoM/EoT on this score, as the Watsonian and Doylist blends far too much.) ANYWAY. People see this as him coming back down to Earth - but note it's only momentary. He goes into the TARDIS, but he does not go where the Ood are summoning him. Quite the opposite - the Time Lord Victorious says "No!" and goes off to have adventures - as we see at the start of EoT. And just how wrong does he come across then? The forced cheerfulness grates, because it's unnatural. He's still not himself, he's not chosen to let go of that Victoriousness. It's not shouty anymore, just ticking away underneath everything else.
He then gets sidetracked by what the Ood tell him, and of course the idea that the Master is returning makes him run as fast as he can... Because that crack which was always there in his his personality broke open, and it doesn't close. Saving the people on Mars became all about him. Ditto, the Master. He runs and he searches and he initially dismisses Wilf (after crying on his shoulder a little), and finally finds what he wants: The Master. I was always torn over that scene in the Vinvocci spaceship where he refuses Wilf's gun, because he would rather keep the Master than save the Earth - but it makes perfect sense if he's still Victorious. As does his standoff against Rassilon and all that, because it's perfectly logical that *he* should hold the world's fate in his hands... (After all, he won the war. The Laws of Time are his. No wonder he guesses what the Master planned - to turn all the Time Lords into copies of himself - because it's exactly the kind of mindset he's nurturing: It's all about him. He won the war the first time round, he'll win it this time too.)
This also brings into new focus his rant against Wilf: The Time Lord Victorious is indeed being handed the death sentence he initially suspected - and he is just as unwilling to accept it as he was then. But - he needs to die, as is plain to anyone with eyes: He's a clear and present danger. (I'll get back to this further down.) But he doesn't accept that. At all. Oh he goes into that booth in order to save Wilf, but I don't think he ever accepts that he needs to die. Indeed he then goes onto visit EVERYONE, and it's not just a goodbye, it's an absolute refusal to acquiesce to his death sentence. Even that last line ("I don't want to go") is... *light bulb moment* Ooooooh it's like Donna. You could almost say that the Time Lord Victorious took over the Doctor, and WILL NOT DIE, and so has to be exorcised. This is why he talks about regeneration as 'death', why Donna's loss of memory is referred to as a 'death' also - they both become something they shouldn't be, something *wrong*. (Re. Donna, then see this excellent essay: Donna Noble's Midnight: Parallels, Foreshadowing, and "Journey's End". But in a nutshell - this is Donna talking just before she begins to falter: "Brilliant! Fantastic! Molto bene! Great bit of universe packed into my brain." <-That? Is not Donna. Remember the nameless monster in Midnight that stole the Doctor's voice? Here, it is Donna speaking with the Doctor's voice, not her own. Similarly, Ten in those last episodes is... not himself. And the thing wearing his face needs to die. Notice that both Donna and the Doctor are themselves afterwards, however they need to 'die' in order to get rid of the thing that's taken over over. Because there is always a price. ETA: It was... like a cancer, and needed drastic surgery. That's a better way of looking at it than 'taken over by alien force'.)
Of course this is only looking at one aspect, one layer, of the overall story, and I'm deliberately ignoring all the other stuff. But I think it's a useful thing to keep in mind - it certainly makes sense of a lot of Ten's behaviour in those last two episodes. My main problem is that I can see the writer's hand far too clearly - Rusty created a monster, but couldn't control him and had to kill him off rather brutally. There wasn't time to examine the damage in any detail, nor to redeem the monster:
The Time Lords went bad, and had to die. The Doctor went bad and had to die.
(And then Moffat took over the reigns and took everything apart, examined it in great detail, fixed the broken parts, put it back together and now it all works again and there is no bad.)
First of all, however, re-posting something I wrote in a comment in a previous post. It's essentially 'Rusty Who in 25 words' I guess. *coughs discreetly*
EVERYONE IS A MONSTER, EVEN THE DOCTOR. EXCEPT HE IS WONDERFUL, BECAUSE HE'S THE HERO. [error error does not compute and Bowie Base One explodes]
Basically it's about how Rusty's main issue (the thing he ALWAYS writes about) is [humanity's] monstrousness, and obviously this spilled into DW in increasing amounts.
So, thoughts about Victoriousness under the cut. The main complaint I've heard re. WoM is that it never went anywhere - Ten went all 'The Laws of Time Are MINE!' but then 'snapped out of it'. My question is - did he?
Here's the thing: Adelaide kills herself, and yes, it stops Ten in his tracks. 'I've gone too far!' he says, and then sees Ood Sigma there to summon him for (he presumes) his death. (Considering that he's an atheist, he's surprisingly quick to jump to the conclusion that *someone* wants to punish him for his behaviour. I have... issues with WoM/EoT on this score, as the Watsonian and Doylist blends far too much.) ANYWAY. People see this as him coming back down to Earth - but note it's only momentary. He goes into the TARDIS, but he does not go where the Ood are summoning him. Quite the opposite - the Time Lord Victorious says "No!" and goes off to have adventures - as we see at the start of EoT. And just how wrong does he come across then? The forced cheerfulness grates, because it's unnatural. He's still not himself, he's not chosen to let go of that Victoriousness. It's not shouty anymore, just ticking away underneath everything else.
He then gets sidetracked by what the Ood tell him, and of course the idea that the Master is returning makes him run as fast as he can... Because that crack which was always there in his his personality broke open, and it doesn't close. Saving the people on Mars became all about him. Ditto, the Master. He runs and he searches and he initially dismisses Wilf (after crying on his shoulder a little), and finally finds what he wants: The Master. I was always torn over that scene in the Vinvocci spaceship where he refuses Wilf's gun, because he would rather keep the Master than save the Earth - but it makes perfect sense if he's still Victorious. As does his standoff against Rassilon and all that, because it's perfectly logical that *he* should hold the world's fate in his hands... (After all, he won the war. The Laws of Time are his. No wonder he guesses what the Master planned - to turn all the Time Lords into copies of himself - because it's exactly the kind of mindset he's nurturing: It's all about him. He won the war the first time round, he'll win it this time too.)
This also brings into new focus his rant against Wilf: The Time Lord Victorious is indeed being handed the death sentence he initially suspected - and he is just as unwilling to accept it as he was then. But - he needs to die, as is plain to anyone with eyes: He's a clear and present danger. (I'll get back to this further down.) But he doesn't accept that. At all. Oh he goes into that booth in order to save Wilf, but I don't think he ever accepts that he needs to die. Indeed he then goes onto visit EVERYONE, and it's not just a goodbye, it's an absolute refusal to acquiesce to his death sentence. Even that last line ("I don't want to go") is... *light bulb moment* Ooooooh it's like Donna. You could almost say that the Time Lord Victorious took over the Doctor, and WILL NOT DIE, and so has to be exorcised. This is why he talks about regeneration as 'death', why Donna's loss of memory is referred to as a 'death' also - they both become something they shouldn't be, something *wrong*. (Re. Donna, then see this excellent essay: Donna Noble's Midnight: Parallels, Foreshadowing, and "Journey's End". But in a nutshell - this is Donna talking just before she begins to falter: "Brilliant! Fantastic! Molto bene! Great bit of universe packed into my brain." <-That? Is not Donna. Remember the nameless monster in Midnight that stole the Doctor's voice? Here, it is Donna speaking with the Doctor's voice, not her own. Similarly, Ten in those last episodes is... not himself. And the thing wearing his face needs to die. Notice that both Donna and the Doctor are themselves afterwards, however they need to 'die' in order to get rid of the thing that's taken over over. Because there is always a price. ETA: It was... like a cancer, and needed drastic surgery. That's a better way of looking at it than 'taken over by alien force'.)
Of course this is only looking at one aspect, one layer, of the overall story, and I'm deliberately ignoring all the other stuff. But I think it's a useful thing to keep in mind - it certainly makes sense of a lot of Ten's behaviour in those last two episodes. My main problem is that I can see the writer's hand far too clearly - Rusty created a monster, but couldn't control him and had to kill him off rather brutally. There wasn't time to examine the damage in any detail, nor to redeem the monster:
The Doctor: He destroyed the Daleks. He committed genocide. He's too dangerous to be left on his own.
TenToo (confused and a little angry): You made me!
The Doctor: Exactly, you were born in battle - full of blood and anger and revenge. (to Rose) Remind you of someone?
~
Wilf: But I’ve heard you talk about your people like they’re wonderful!
The Doctor: That’s how I choose to remember them! The Time Lords of old. But then they went to war! And endless war! And it changed them. Right to the core. You’ve seen my enemies, Wilf. The Time Lords are more dangerous than any of them!
The Time Lords went bad, and had to die. The Doctor went bad and had to die.
(And then Moffat took over the reigns and took everything apart, examined it in great detail, fixed the broken parts, put it back together and now it all works again and there is no bad.)
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I'm not sure, but just from what I've observed people saying, obviously some people don't find it a straightforward connection. (Half the time when I write meta, I feel like I'm stating Obvious Truths, and everyone is just going to roll their eyes...)
Ten's describing himself here too.
That is, actually, exactly what I was trying to say with that quote - if the was changed them, surely it changed him too. He can only really see it/acknowledge it when it's external (TenToo, the other Time Lords), but yes, it's very very much about himself. I've written before about how, as the Last Time Lord, what a Time Lord *is*, is up to him... Not just the memory of those who died, but who *he* is. (Love how this is addressed in AGMGTW - 'Why would a Time Lord be a weapon?'/'Well... they've seen you'.) But I think I'm rambling?
Except Wilf, the wise old man almost at the end of his life, ready to sacrifice himself, embodying the essence of the Doctor. With Wilf's scenes we see the Doctor's musings on "Sometimes I think the Time Lord lives too long," followed by "Lived too long."
::nods a lot::
In that vein I think the Time Lord Victorious died when Ten stepped into the radiation chamber, because to me he seemed more humble afterwards.
Which goes very well with the theory that who ever is around when he dies imprints on him - Rose imprinted on Ten, and Wilf imprints on Eleven (as does Amelia, I think).
I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. "I don't want to go" could be interpreted as one last gasp from the TLV, but I don't think it is.
That was mostly me stretching my thought as far as it would go. Generally I'm with this meta, talking about how it's mostly regret he feels [over a - partly - misspent life] and how Eleven is the answer to this: Someone who lives fully.
I like your cancer metaphor for Ten; it's appropriate, because the Time Lord Victorious was always a part of him, slowly mutating and growing beneath the veneer.
:)
I have to disagree with using that metaphor for Donna, though. Doctor!Donna was imposed on her, more akin to an infection than a cancer.
Very true. It's difficult to keep your metaphors straight when you're in a rush... *g*
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Yes, that's so true, isn't it? You get the feeling that in between what we see of Eleven with Amy and Rory (and even River) there are vast swathes of adventures rather like the ones hinted at at the very start of Impossible Astronaut. You can never think of Ten alone without worrying about him, but Eleven will be popping up under some lady's skirt, or fixing up a child's dream bedroom somewhere.
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A whole 200 years... It's like an endless license for writing FitBs! :)
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WILF: But you said... you were told, he will knock four times. And then you die. That's him, isn't it, The Master? The noise in his head? The Master is going to kill you.
THE DOCTOR: Yeah.
WILF: Then kill him first.
(cut dialogue begins)
WILF (CONT'D) Don't you deserve it?
THE DOCTOR: Ohh yeah. Isn't that the truth? Got it in one! I deserve it, absolutely! I so deserve to live. Everything I've done, the lives I've saved, the people, the planets,
every single star in the sky. So where is it, then? Just once. Where's the reward?
WILF: Then take it.
(cut dialogue ends)
THE DOCTOR: And that's how the Master started.
It's revealing how this bit got cut, because yikes, what a thing for the Doctor to admit to Wilf, that he deserves a reward for what he's done. I think it proves your idea that the Time Lord Victorious was always quietly ticking throughout TEoT.
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I've been sat here nearly speechless for ages as my brain's been trying to absorb this. Mostly my reaction is 'WHY DOES RUSTY CUT STUFF? WHY WHY WHY WHY WHYYYYYYYYY?'
I never liked that scene, and I'm now hitting myself over the head because I disliked it because the whole point of it was cut out! I just. *hands* Those lines throw EVERYTHING else into perfect focus, and everything he does suddenly makes so much more sense. The reason I disliked it so much was that I thought he was lying... And I don't mind selfish bastards, as long as they're honest about it. AND HE WAS!
Really, what I'm trying to say is THANK YOU. You've made me love Ten in EoT, which I've found increasingly difficult. But oh, I understand him now.
(It's late, I'm half asleep, and I'll get back to you later. Probably tomorrow sometime if I'm lucky. But oh, you've tipped everything upside down in the most fabulous way and if I ever meet Rusty i shall have to shout at him for CUTTING THE MOST IMPORTANT PART! I don't care that it was not suitable for children or whatever excuse he'd trot out. All that stuff went over their heads anyway. Srsly, I had to EXPLAIN WoM to mine... This was the Doctor's goddamn motivation and it got cut. *cries*)
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Yep, when I read the cut lines and compared them to the fan transcripts I thought, now the reward stuff makes sense! Otherwise it came out of nowhere and as you said, made Ten look horrible.
I don't think it would have been terrible to leave those lines in, either. I don't think his asking to be rewarded was out of line, he was going to die at the end anyway. And yep, it throws the rant into a better light. His reward wasn't that he'd be spared, it was that he'd live long enough to say goodbye to everyone. That's a damn good reward in itself.
(thewriterstale.com has RTD's shooting scripts for S4 and the Specials available for free download. Some interesting stuff there.)
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Not just wank but... I'm literally reassessing my whole way of looking at those episodes. OK, some of it is still crack, but I finally understand the Doctor's motivation and it all fits together. I'll have to write another post...
Yep, when I read the cut lines and compared them to the fan transcripts I thought, now the reward stuff makes sense! Otherwise it came out of nowhere and as you said, made Ten look horrible.
I tended to just sort of skim over the 'reward' line, because it didn't make much sense. By then I was sort of done with Ten being weird, I think. Now however, it fits far too beautifully. ♥
I don't think it would have been terrible to leave those lines in, either. I don't think his asking to be rewarded was out of line, he was going to die at the end anyway. And yep, it throws the rant into a better light. His reward wasn't that he'd be spared, it was that he'd live long enough to say goodbye to everyone. That's a damn good reward in itself.
It is, and it's lovely. (I am all a-flail still. He's totally redeemed & makes sense again. Hurrah! I shall still have to totally ignore all the stuff that doesn't make sense, but it helps to have something good to focus on, you know?)
(thewriterstale.com has RTD's shooting scripts for S4 and the Specials available for free download. Some interesting stuff there.)
Thank you. Will have to have a look!
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every single star in the sky. So where is it, then? Just once. Where's the reward?
WILF: Then take it.
(cut dialogue ends)
THE DOCTOR: And that's how the Master started.
*boggles*
YES. HE DID.
It wasn't the noise. It was never the noise. Oh, the noise made him short-tempered, made him erratic, made him stand out in a society where conformity was king. It might have broken him eventually, but it never made him kill, or torture. It was that thought: I deserve.
I deserve respect. I deserve better. I deserve to be top of my class, that conniving creature who came in first probably cheated, or bribed the professor. I deserve familial praise that doesn't come with unspoken footnotes, especially considering that you're a little off, the psychologists never could find that drumming of yours, why do you have to stand out so? I deserve a boyfriend who doesn't quarrel with me, I deserve a relationship that's always as magical as the first night we stayed up until dawn talking about all the things we could do if only we had the freedom of the entire universe. In fact, don't I deserve a little bit of . . . adulation? Reverence, even? It's not as if I haven't worked for it, as if I'm not brilliant enough—why does the universe refuse to give me what I deserve?
Of course, I am a Time Lord. I could just . . . take it.
/Master thoughts. Personally, I was never entirely sold on the drums, and the thought that the Master started by killing someone who might be trying to kill him—honestly, I'd forgotten that was in there, because it just failed to resonate with me in any way. But the Master slowly corrupting himself with that one insidious thought, I deserve—that works. That's true.
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Very good observation.
Seriously, these few lines are making me look t EVERYTHING in a fresh light. It's like getting brandnew Ten canon. I ADORE it!
ETA: Also, that Ten - at this point - believes himself deserving of a reward... Damn. Proves that the Victoriousness is still hanging around and no mistake. (At this point I now ADORE EoT with renewed fervour, and also want to hug AGMGTW for ever.)
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Anyway, I'm much to tired to make any sort of sense right now, and the topic of Doctor & Death is faaaar too wide for me to tackle...
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(Why the hell would you cut those lines?)
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IKR? I have thoughts on this, which I shall have to sort through & order properly. But OMFG everything makes more sense, even his rant. (He thinks he made it. He thinks he avoided his death without killing anyone (he passed the test! He didn't turn into the Master!) and then the universe says: 'Gotcha! You're dying anyway, it wasn't the Master after all! Ha!' No wonder he loses it...
(Why the hell would you cut those lines?)
I DON'T KNOW IT MAKES NO SENSE! *cries*
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I have felt, for a while, that the scariest, most chillingly un-Doctor-ish line in "The Waters of Mars" wasn't part of "The laws of time are mine," rant, but shortly before—when he said something like, "A 'thank you' would be nice."
I thought before that was just because he was saying it to a woman who was, visibly and palpably, slightly more freaked out than ought to be physically possible, and because just about the most terrifying thing you can hear, from the superhero who just rescued you, is that he wants paying. (After all, he could put you back . . .)
But, no. It was deliberate. It was part of the theme. It was the freakin' Time Lord Victorious, wanting his reward.
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"I travelled across the world. From the ruins of New York, to the fusion mills of China, right across the radiation pits of Europe. And everywhere I went I saw people just like you, living as slaves! But if Martha Jones became a legend then that's wrong, because my name isn't important. There's someone else. The man who sent me out there, the man who told me to walk the Earth. And his name is The Doctor. He has saved your lives so many times and you never even knew he was there. He never stops. He never stays. He never asks to be thanked. But I've seen him, I know him... I love him... And I know what he can do."
Asking to be thanked was The biggest jarring thing for me. *shivers* So simple, so wrong. Showing perfectly how UTTERLY mad he had become...
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I also agree that saying the Master got his start by killing someone trying to kill him is probably simplistic. It's probably when the Doctor started really understanding something was wrong. My fanon is actually that the Master was practically looking for an excuse to test an early version of the TCE, used in a situation where he was in danger, but it was sorta unnecessary overkill. And he got away with it.
After that, other people's deaths is just another consequence he can dismiss.
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There's a drive to self protect and exert control over other to do so.
Mmmmm. And if you value your own life above all else, then it logically follows that you must deserve to live more than others.
My fanon is actually that the Master was practically looking for an excuse to test an early version of the TCE, used in a situation where he was in danger, but it was sorta unnecessary overkill. And he got away with it.
What does TCE stand for? (This is possibly obvious, but I'm very tired.) However yes - he got away with it. And that's all it takes.
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I think it could be used to shrink things in general, but I can't recall a specific instance of him doing so. It strikes me as started as a 'toy' or general experiment and then he got way too interested in certain applications.
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Aaaah. I knew about it, but not what it was called. Thank you. :)
I think it could be used to shrink things in general, but I can't recall a specific instance of him doing so. It strikes me as started as a 'toy' or general experiment and then he got way too interested in certain applications.
I used it in one of my Alex stories - some aliens created Miniscopes, where miniaturised people would act out scenes. It's from an Old Who story I can't recall the name of...