elisi | Vaguely related to the comics.

It's probably worth keeping in mind that Whedon was really only peripherally involved in most of Angel. The series was really, Tim Minear and David Greenwalt's baby. When they left, they hired Jeff Bell to take over the reigns.
Whedon acted more as an executive producer.

Sort of similar actually to the comics, where Whedon hands the reigns off to someone else to plot and write the Angel and Faith series. He did the same thing there.

I think Whedon wrote Angel as a metaphor, then never quite made it past the metaphor. Greenwalt and Minear ran with the character and used the metaphor in a different way - examining it as a sort of internal denial or mask. All you have to do is watch Amends and compare it to Dear Boy, the Prodigal, and Darla to see the differences. Or for that matter Becoming vs. Darla. And you see Minear saw Angel as more complex than Whedon did. I'm not saying Minear is a better writer, just that he was more comfortable, as was Greenwalt, in that specific genre.

It's probably worth keeping in mind that Whedon was really only peripherally involved in most of Angel. The series was really, Tim Minear and David Greenwalt's baby. When they left, they hired Jeff Bell to take over the reigns.
Whedon acted more as an executive producer.
M-hm. The problem of course being that Scott Allie is no Greenwalt...

I think Whedon wrote Angel as a metaphor, then never quite made it past the metaphor.
Like I said somewhere else - it's a bit like Twilight.

And you see Minear saw Angel as more complex than Whedon did. I'm not saying Minear is a better writer, just that he was more comfortable, as was Greenwalt, in that specific genre.
I just wish Joss would leave it all well alone. :(

Scott Allie? He's a comic book guy and fanboy of Whedon...I ignore him.
Fans don't make good editors of their idol's work...sort of counter-to-the-whole-I'm-unabashed-fan-bit.

Greenwalt and Minear weren't fanboys, but equals. Robert Downy, Jr is a good example of someone with more power and a bigger ego - getting involved with Whedon, and a bigger fan following. Whedon had to compromise for Downy, Jr.

Whedon: I write it, you say it.
Downy, Jr: Eh. No. You write it. I say it sucks. We work together until it makes sense.
Whedon: You work on the shots, and I'll go over here and write multiple versions and you can pick which one you like?
Downy, Jr. : Cool. You do all the work. I pick from a menu, works for me.

LOL!! Reminds me of George Lucas and Harrison Ford.

Lucas: I write it. You say it.
Harrison: George, dude, people don't talk like this. I'm changing it. Go play with your special effects.
George: Okey, dokey.

Whedon: I write it. You say it.
David Boreanze: But this is stupid.
Whedon: I can always kill off your character.
David Boreanze: alrighty then.

Whedon: I write it, you publish it or I hire someone else to write it and you publish it or I plot it out and you write what I want.
Scott Allie: But this plot makes no sense.
Whedon: Oh, look, IDW and Marvel over here...
Scott Allie: Okey-dokey, whatever you say, you are my Master.

Questions? Comments?

Seriously like that? XDD
I think that Whedon needs a balance, someone who can share his power about the characters, but not every fanboy's wrong.
Drew Goddard was a huge Whedon's fanboy, but he still created one of my favourite episode of all the time (Selfless).

Goddard was more a fan of the work than a fan of the writer, I think, and that makes all the difference. Helps greatly that he was an agent prior, and had written a lot of spec scripts - like Espenson, he tended to have a realistic view.

Whedon: This is the way it goes -
Goddard: Uh, you forgot that bit in season 2 where Xander lies to Buffy about what Willow is doing on the soul
Whedon: Oh right, not important.
Goddard: Beg to differ...(writes scene) and see it fits the climatic moment about Xander figuring out what Buffy is dealing with - it's the Buffy of the episode.
Whedon: Go with it!

I don't think Whedon wants to be worshipped. That's why he enjoys working with Goddard and Espenson...he likes to be challenged. Goddard proved himself outside of Whedon - as a director of a big blockbuster horror flick several years before...

ETC: Several years before Cabin in the Woods, not Buffy.
It was Cloverfield.

I believe that it's important love the works not the artist. I mean, you can also love the creator, because, of course, he puts himself in his creations and can be a great person, but the works are all the matters, in the end.

Agreed. Putting creators on pedestals...leads to much pulling out of the hair and stomping. Because they will fall off of them, eventually.

Also, you don't really know the creator except through their work...and they don't know you. You are interacting with their work not them, the relationship is with the piece of art not with the person who created it.
Sure they put themselves into it to an extent, but we tend to see their work through our own experience and perspective, and often catch things the artist never intended. It's what Whedon means when he says a piece of art or work of art is like a child, not a pet, it grows up, leaves home, and talks back to you. It has a life of its own.

Absolutely!
I still think that Joss is my hero, because he created some of my favourite things of all the time (Buffy, Angel, Doctor Horrible ...) but I love his vision, not *really him*. Same thing with SMG. I can't say that I love her, but I love her talent, her ability to portray her characters, especially Buffy Summers.
I tend to be optimistic about my favorite artists' works, I know. In fact, I was full of hope about Season Nine and I'm still hoping that Joss finally finds a way to make the comics better. Well, I can't help it!

You really think Allie is a Whedon fanboy? Given how much of his work he doesn't seem to care very much for, I'm not sure I think that. I tend to think it's more Whedon=Money. 'Cause once it appears to the audience that Executive Produced by Joss Whedon is just a stamp, there goes sales. His name is the only thing selling it.

That's why, I think, as the sales continue to drop it seems more and more comes out that Joss isn't all that involved. New Spike and Willow series? Didn't even hire the writers; Allie did. Spike's involvement in the trunk issues were determined by sales, not because of any planned arc (hence why it's changed 3 times already). When the final arc of S8 was being written, Allie was very, very careful not to admit is was writing most of it...until Joss said he was co-writing it. Now there is no abashment. As sales continue to fall--and they're gonna--I wonder what new information will turn up about who did what.

I admittedly have not read any of Allie's interviews or interactions since 2010. So probably missed the part where he said he didn't care for Whedon's later works. The stuff I read, Allie was gushing like a fanboy. But again that was between 2007-2010.

So...will have to go by your analysis.

That said, he doesn't have to be a fanboy...he can just be into the money and the fact that he needs Whedon more than Whedon needs Dark Horse.

ie.

Scott Allie: This plot makes no sense.
Whedon: Oh..look, IDW and Marvel...
Scott Allie: Don't worry, we'll make it work. No problem.

Oh, I don't know if he's a fanboy or not or how much of his work he likes. But from much of the things he's said, of Whedon's work he liked Angel. I've never got the impression he cared for BTVS or Firefly to a great extent. Sure, he gives the standard "I'm a big fan, blah, blah" you always gets, but the tenor of his words in commenting on them doesn't really back it up.

But yeah, he knows he needs Joss more than Joss needs him.

Vaguely related to the comics.

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