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A (minor) complaint re. ep 2 of MD.
First of all, then this is not a major rant or anything. I was just thinking about this scene and ended up lamenting a missed opportunity.
ETA: Darn it, knew I was forgetting something! I'm watching on the UK schedule, and so have not seen ep 3! Plz do not spoil me.
ETA2: Spoilers for ep 3 in the comments.
The scene in question is Jack's near-death by arsenic on the plane. Don't get me wrong, I think it was nicely done, but... it could have been any show. Would have fitted beautifully on CSI. Plus, we know that Jack doesn't die. So... nice, but a bit pointless. Felt like filler.
Those are minor niggles however. My main problem is that Jack is now mortal - and we were given precisely zero insight into how this near-death experience affected him. Now they might delve into this later (I rather expect them to), but for now? Zilch. During S1 of TW he very clearly longed for death (and admitted as much to the Doctor in 'Utopia'), although he managed to find meaning again during S2. Then came 'Children of Earth', and in 'House of the Dead' (the last proper look into him, his final goodbye to Gwen revealed very little) he was desperate and suicidal:
Ianto: “You can’t die!”
Jack: “Next best thing. Eternal oblivion! Lost in the space between worlds, forever!"
And now? Now he almost dies. It was obviously extremely painful, but did he want death? Does he feel he deserves it? Does he want to stay around in order try to fix the world? (Does he worry that it's his fault?) How does he feel about the fact that something he has wanted for centuries was almost his, but then snatched away?
Instead of any of this, he was cast as the damsel in distress, with no agency or independent motivation, and I think the show could do better. We had all of S1 with Jack as a shark, or iceberg, only a snippet showing - it was a problem then, and it's a problem now. I understand why they wrote it like that, but having your main character be a big unknown is a gamble. (Gwen's lovely. But I'm not watching for Gwen. I'm watching for Jack. Since I no longer have Ianto...)
Like I said, missed opportunity. It wouldn't have killed the writers to add just a line or two for Jack - just something, anything, to show that ALMOST DYING was a big deal.
ETA: Apparently this will be addressed in ep 3. Good to know.
~~~
Random silliness: You know the ramblers that showed up at Gwen's door in ep 1? Could be my parents! Didn't *look* like them, but the outfits, the query, the line about having the right kind of shoes? THEM TO A T OMG! Really, it was uncanny... (You don't expect your parents to turn up on TV. Esp not on something like Torchwood.)
ETA: Darn it, knew I was forgetting something! I'm watching on the UK schedule, and so have not seen ep 3! Plz do not spoil me.
ETA2: Spoilers for ep 3 in the comments.
The scene in question is Jack's near-death by arsenic on the plane. Don't get me wrong, I think it was nicely done, but... it could have been any show. Would have fitted beautifully on CSI. Plus, we know that Jack doesn't die. So... nice, but a bit pointless. Felt like filler.
Those are minor niggles however. My main problem is that Jack is now mortal - and we were given precisely zero insight into how this near-death experience affected him. Now they might delve into this later (I rather expect them to), but for now? Zilch. During S1 of TW he very clearly longed for death (and admitted as much to the Doctor in 'Utopia'), although he managed to find meaning again during S2. Then came 'Children of Earth', and in 'House of the Dead' (the last proper look into him, his final goodbye to Gwen revealed very little) he was desperate and suicidal:
Ianto: “You can’t die!”
Jack: “Next best thing. Eternal oblivion! Lost in the space between worlds, forever!"
And now? Now he almost dies. It was obviously extremely painful, but did he want death? Does he feel he deserves it? Does he want to stay around in order try to fix the world? (Does he worry that it's his fault?) How does he feel about the fact that something he has wanted for centuries was almost his, but then snatched away?
Instead of any of this, he was cast as the damsel in distress, with no agency or independent motivation, and I think the show could do better. We had all of S1 with Jack as a shark, or iceberg, only a snippet showing - it was a problem then, and it's a problem now. I understand why they wrote it like that, but having your main character be a big unknown is a gamble. (Gwen's lovely. But I'm not watching for Gwen. I'm watching for Jack. Since I no longer have Ianto...)
Like I said, missed opportunity. It wouldn't have killed the writers to add just a line or two for Jack - just something, anything, to show that ALMOST DYING was a big deal.
ETA: Apparently this will be addressed in ep 3. Good to know.
~~~
Random silliness: You know the ramblers that showed up at Gwen's door in ep 1? Could be my parents! Didn't *look* like them, but the outfits, the query, the line about having the right kind of shoes? THEM TO A T OMG! Really, it was uncanny... (You don't expect your parents to turn up on TV. Esp not on something like Torchwood.)
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He drinks, he takes pain killers, he has meaningless sex, he tries to assert his macho-ness with the new TW team. And the most heart breaking bit of all- he tries desperately to connect with the one person he loves- Gwen- and she can't be there for him.
Basically, Jack SUCKS at being human. He spent way too long being an immortal god like figure, and now that he has a tiny little taste of what it feels like to have something (someone) to lose, he has NO idea wtf to do with himself.
And his mixed feelings about forgiveness- how can that child killer live with himself (forever) when Jack couldn't live with what he'd done? And now that Jack CAN die- hell, maybe he *wants* to. He's old and tired and he has too much to carry.
To wit: that phone call scene with Gwen BROKE MY HEART bc there was Jack, FINALLY FINALLY being like "oh shit, I can LOSE people, I can BE lost" - how many times were we reminded in TW that Jack "swans off" "left us, Jack" etc etc. And he finally understands what that might be like. Because Gwen has totally moved on emotionally. Her family is her number one priority, no matter how much she still loves Jack.
Jack is ALONE. Again (still). And it's AWESOME.
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But - I am glad it's addressed. Thank you.
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Uhm, hoping we didn't spoil her now.
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Also - hello! Seems like forever since we talked.
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I know the feeling, hell there's plenty of things I no longer care about the spoilers about. Just hated to see you accidentally spoiled in your own post.
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Well I care (because I'm a spoiler phobe by nature), but I don't care.
Oh and, because I have a mind like a sieve, have you watched TW before or have you just started?
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I think I probably knew this. But my head, at the moment, is a bit... overwhelmed.
But I'll admit that it probably helps that Ianto wasn't in my top five of fave Torchwood characters. Now when Owen died, that nearly broke me. And I can't begin to imagine how I'd feel if anything happened to Gwen.
Well if you imagine it, that's how I felt about Ianto. Nothing [fictional], ever, has hit me that hard. (I'm - slowly - working on meta on 'House of the Dead', because it was wonderful and gave me closure. I can bear to look at him again, y'know? Because I couldn't before, it hurt too much. Although on the plus side, I'm now watching from 'a safe distance' as it were.)
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I do still mourn the Peter/MJ wedding from Marvel canon, and will forever hate Quesada for destroying Spidey the way he has.
I know, not dead, but believe me, it's much better to have a beloved character die and be mourned, than it is to see said once beloved char still running around, yet behave like everything you could possibly loathe in a male character. Quesada also allowed Ultimate Spidey to be killed and after the way regular universe Spidey was treated, it's almost a boon, because at least Ultimate Spidey was allowed to go out as a hero.
I'm still mourning Finnick from the Hunger Games though.
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Ianto is the only non-immortal/alien/supernatural character I've ever fallen for. Never again!
I know, not dead, but believe me, it's much better to have a beloved character die and be mourned, than it is to see said once beloved char still running around, yet behave like everything you could possibly loathe in a male character.
I read Buffy s8, I know *exactly* what you mean! It's AWFUL! (Thank goodness that was only a comic book - that is, a completely different medium, and thus not canon.)
I'm still mourning Finnick from the Hunger Games though.
Haven't read those books (yet), but you have all my sympathy.
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One of the most interesting things that could come up in this series is if Jack actually has to make a choice - die now or go back to being immortal. My gut feeling is that if he has a choice of remaining mortal, or going down fighting, he might very well choose that. But if it's the reverse - die now, and let the world go to hell, he might wind up immortal again. There's so much that could be done with this. I hope it doesn't just get passed over.
>> Jack is now mortal <<
Just curious about something here. I don't actually see any reason for the characters in the story to assume that Jack is mortal now. Yes, his trademark immortality/healing is gone, but there's no proof that he's not just like everyone else now (i.e. undying). Jack assumes it, and everyone goes along, but unless he actually dies (or doesn't), there's no way to know. I've raised this in a couple of places, so I hope it's OK that I did it again, but I wonder what your thoughts are.
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*nods a lot* I've been thinking along the same lines, and I'm guessing that's where the story is going. At least, that would seem the logical place for it.
I don't actually see any reason for the characters in the story to assume that Jack is mortal now.
Well Rhys put it all very succinctly in ep. 2, and I'm inclined to agree - the whole world turns immortal (and something very close to Jack's immortality, although I'm not sure if people can heal like he used to), so there OUGHT to be a connection. Plus the first little webisode thing established that Jack was kidnapped by persons unknown back in 2007. Basically I can see why everyone jumps to that particular conclusion, plus there's no way of really proving it, so they just go with it as a given. There could well be something else going on, but I'm not sure the show is *that* convoluted...
I've raised this in a couple of places, so I hope it's OK that I did it again, but I wonder what your thoughts are.
Oh it's always fine to bring stuff up here. :) I just hope I made sense - I've had a long day. *yawns*
~~~
Now I wrote the above on Monday and LJ wouldn't let me post, but I think that still sums up my thoughts pretty well. Plus there's the swift 'Torchwood' message that goes out, and is then wiped. Now much as I love Gwen, I don't think that was about her - the name Torchwood points straight to Jack. And if someone is pointing to *him* as the whole world goes immortal... well. Plus letting Jack be mortal is by far the best story you could tell - esp if he has to choose to become immortal again in order to save the world. I can see why the easy assumption seems to simple, but it would seem that Jack himself feel different too.
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And if someone is pointing to *him* as the whole world goes immortal...
See, this is where the logic falls apart for me. If Jack is somehow being drained, so that he's now mortal while everyone else is undying, then why do they try to kill him at the start? Seems to me that they might want him captured, but not killed.
On the other hand, it might have nothing to do with him directly, but be something associated with past Torchwood, and they're afraid he'll figure it out. In that case, killing him makes sense. Doesn't really matter if he actually dies though, as long as he's unable to communicate - thus the bomb, or poison (arsenic poisoning results in coma before death). Now if it is an artifact of some sort (like the Immortality Gate in End of Time), that changes the entire race instantaneously, then I could see either (1) Jack being completely unaffected, because he no longer fits the "human" template, or (2) he's affected just like everyone else, which would mean he's undying. We know that #1 isn't the case, but that leaves me thinking #2 is in play.
although I'm not sure if people can heal like he used to
From what we've seen so far, I would say that people are healing normally. So Rex, for example, could heal. The miracle kept him from dying before he could be treated, but he's now in a post surgical period and can presumably recover. Of course, he's not exactly resting and letting himself heal, so who knows... On the other hand, that suicide bomber certainly didn't show any evidence of Jack's accelerated, come-back-from-anything type healing.
the swift 'Torchwood' message that goes out, and is then wiped
Agree that the message was intended to flush Jack. Jack is the one who wiped it. He mentioned that in ep 2. Must say, one of the things I like about MD is that Jack is shown as being fairly competent - his hideaway with all the equipment, the sophisticated malware, a bank account from 1906 left gathering interest... I hope this continues. Frankly, one of the things I really disliked about COE was how incompetent everyone was, in so many places. (Not only TW, but also things like UNIT assuming only they and TW could figure out the pattern with the kids, when it would have been all over the social network sites within minutes. At least MD plays like it's happening in this decade.)
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Well if he's dead, no one can reverse it [the miracle] - presumably. (Unlike the Immortality Gate - I think this is not transferring Jack's template onto everyone, but literally reversing it. And if the miracle *can* reversed, you'd presumably need Jack in order to do so, which means that 'they' want him dead.)
Anyway, I'm not really capable of overthinking it, since I'm pretty sure it's as straightforward as it seems - RTD tends to echo Joss in these matters:
"So if we can get past that [awkward plot stuff] by saying 'These things happen when you're on a Hellmouth' then you can get to what's important!"
Rusty operates in the same way: Fairly straightforward plot which sets up all the issues he's interested in. Look at the 456 - they were merely a tool enabling Rusty explore moral dilemmas. So yeah, I think Jack's now mortal. There could be a twist of course, but there needn't be. Esp since Jack's sudden mortality is a good thing to explore. (Actually, just Jack believing that he's mortal is what he's exploring. Whether he is or not is plot related. The characters stuff is... removed from that? The important thing is that Jack thinks he's mortal.)
Good lord I hope I make sense. It's been a LOOOOOOONG week.