elisi | Soulful musings.

It's funny, but the recent storyline in the Spike comics (both

rahirah have posts on it) has had precisely zero impact on my view of the 'verse. And not just because I don't see the comics as canon. Thing is - I've been there, done that, and written both an essay and a fic on that very topic, and from what I can tell, the comic does not contradict anything I've said. (This is what comes of having been around for ages. I've got nothing new to say...)

Links for this interested:

Essay: Souls and redemption in the Buffy verse. (tl;dr in the extreme. No really. It's the longest essay I've ever written.)

Fic: Lost Soul. (Written for the second

summer_of_spike. Spike loses his soul, AtS S5. Some wackiness ensues...)

Either of these will explain my views perfectly (although the fic is shorter). Very briefly, however, then yes, of course a soulless vampire can choose to do good (see S5-6). But... a soulless creature doesn't really understand good and evil. It's like life is one of those 3D pictures, and without a soul you can't see the hidden picture. (Or something. I know exactly what I believe, but I can't explain it succinctly. Hence the lengthy writing.)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Fic: Lost Soul. (Written for the second summer_of_spike. Spike loses his soul, AtS S5. Some wackiness ensues...)

Aha! Thank you! I'd been thinking of that story, with all of the talk on the "Spike loses his soul" plot point going around right now.

My pleasure. (And it is quite amusing to see something happening in faux canon that I've already written...)

All the comics suck, no matter who they're placating to.

of course a soulless vampire can choose to do good

I've always been in the middle on that point. Can they choose to do good? Sure, but with the caveat that it suits their interest. Spike's loyal, it's why I've always liked him, and that loyalty led him down a unique path, but I've never been able to say I thought he was good in the sense of good.

Meh, it's all a tired debate, I agree.

All the comics suck, no matter who they're placating to.
Word.

Can they choose to do good? Sure, but with the caveat that it suits their interest.
*nods* It's a thorny issue, and one where Spike was rather unique. Harmony was 'good' whilst working at W&H, but still didn't show an iota of guilt when she thought she'd accidentally killed Toby. Hmmm. That's a good example. I shall have to amend the post. :)

Also Angelus kills the Beast but not because it was the good thing to do, he did it out of ego. Similar to Spike saving the world in S2 but a different motive.

I just really can't get my head around people thinking he was Good pre-soul.

Eh. All the arguments going round are the same arguments that went around Back When. The only difference is, this time there's a quasi-official writer seemingly (I say seemingly because the story's not over yet) taking a side of the argument that's previously been taken only by fans. Quel horreur.

(Also I am mildly bemused at all the pro-soul Spike fans who apparently would rather have had him go on a killing spree the moment it was removed, Just To Prove A Point. Talk about preserving [your interpretation of] the mythology being more important than the character...)

Eh. All the arguments going round are the same arguments that went around Back When.
It's quite funny, really. Esp when watching from the backporch of fandom... (I like it here. It's all nice and quiet.)

The only difference is, this time there's a quasi-official writer seemingly (I say seemingly because the story's not over yet) taking a side of the argument that's previously been taken only by fans. Quel horreur.
*snerk*

Also I am mildly bemused at all the pro-soul Spike fans who apparently would rather have had him go on a killing spree the moment it was removed, Just To Prove A Point.
I do NOT understand this. Like, at all. I am as pro-Spike as they come (if you remember, I wrote the essay partly in response to a very thoughtprovoking comment from your good self, during a long gone soul debate, and the whole point of it is me trying to formulate why I think the soul is necessary) - but I would be DEEPLY disappointed if Spike lost his soul and reverted to pure evil. That would be horrible characterisation. *shudders*

Also I am mildly bemused at all the pro-soul Spike fans who apparently would rather have had him go on a killing spree the moment it was removed, Just To Prove A Point.

Do you have links to where that discussion was going on? I've been following the convo on IDW, BF and SlayAlive but I must've missed that.

It's funny, actually, because the discussion that sparked my essay showed that pro-soul fans thought the soul less important than the 'anti'-soul fans. (This is very bad phrasing, I can clarify if you like? Well, later. I shouldn't be here...)

I'm employing hyperbole. I don't think anyone used those exact words.

What many people do seem to be doing is expressing deep disappointment that Spike would ever, under any circumstances, claim that anything he did without a soul was good, when he did so many bad things without a soul as well. They're offended by the fact that Spike is making an active choice to try to keep doing good even without his soul. That baffles me. Always has, always will.

Just To Prove A Point.

Ah, but I think this is what actually Lynch is doing with so much pro-Buffy talk: soulless Spike can "do" good only if he had Buffy on his brains.

*waves*

As you may have noticed, I've put your "Lost Soul" on top place in my little collection at the end of my "soul" post.

I'm fascinated by the range of opinions on the soul issue - but so far, I haven't met pro-soul fans who think that Spike *should* become evil again.

*waves back*

As you may have noticed, I've put your "Lost Soul" on top place in my little collection at the end of my "soul" post.
Ooooh, really? I've not actually read your post, because I've barely been here. I mean, I saw it and thought 'Oh, that might be interesting' and then life happened and I sort of caught up thanks to Barb, and was going to go back and read yours and then... more life.

I'm fascinated by the range of opinions on the soul issue - but so far, I haven't met pro-soul fans who think that Spike *should* become evil again.
Well I know what people thought a few years ago, but since I haven't had time to actually check anything out, I have to rely on heresay. Ah well, I guess it's good that fandom's nattering again. :) (Also, my post is sort of my contribution, since I am lazy and it's so much easier to point to stuff that's already there than go engage in lots of discussions.)

and then life happened

You tell me about it... :)

I am lazy and it's so much easier to point to stuff that's already there than go engage in lots of discussions

You're not lazy! The less you get engaged in debates the more time you have to write My Immortal 2.

You tell me about it... :)
Life is very inconsiderate.

You're not lazy! The less you get engaged in debates the more time you have to write My Immortal 2.
Heh. Well I'm getting there. Slowly.

I liked 'Lost Soul' and I'm glad to see it pop up again.

I don't know or care if Spike is good without the soul (or with it) but I know he's loyal and nobody's puppet. You can't change that by messing with his soul.

I liked 'Lost Soul' and I'm glad to see it pop up again.
Thank you! :)

I don't know or care if Spike is good without the soul (or with it) but I know he's loyal and nobody's puppet. You can't change that by messing with his soul.
Wordy McWord! Love the way you put that.

Essay: Souls and redemption in the Buffy verse. (tl;dr in the extreme. No really. It's the longest essay I've ever written.)

Can't wait to read it this weekend.

Yay! Enjoy. :)

Soulful musings.

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject