The DW Christmas Special review/meta.

[elisi]

I love A Christmas Carol, to begin with. Really, it's almost part of my DNA I think. You see, when I was growing up, my mother would read one 'ghost' aloud every Sunday in advent (and then the actual Christmas Day on the fourth Sunday), so I know it nearly by heart even though it's been a while since I have actually sat down and read it. (Every year she had yet greater difficulty reading Tiny Tim's death, and I don't blame her. If that doesn't make you cry you have a heart of stone. Even the muppet version makes me all choked up...) Also I love adaptations. The Muppet one is fabulous. The 3-D animated one with Jim Carrey almost made me pinch myself in astonishment at how faithful it was. Scrooged is hilarious and wonderful, and so on...

I'm not really going anywhere with that, I just wanted to mention it. Because I know and love that book, so f.ex. when the phrase 'surplus population' popped up I nearly bounced with joy. :) (I'll get to that later.) Anyway I shall start my proper 'review' now. Many spoilers under cut.


The Meta
I am going to start off by quoting this bit of copperbadge's review of 'The Vampires of Venice':

'One thing I truly love about this show and kinda didn't think about till just now was that while it doesn't always follow the same formula, you do sometimes see a formula pop up repeatedly, one of which is the one where the Doctor vows halfway through an episode to kick someone's ass all over town and then proceeds to do so. I love this mainly because once he has sworn to kick ass, there's a great pleasure in watching him figure out how the ass is to be kicked and then execute his plan of kickassage.'

I mention this because this was exactly the way this episode started off... The standoff between Kazran and the Doctor was rather reminiscent of the Doctor's interactions with Signora Calvierri (well, without the flirting), and that wonderful line that I rather loved in the trailer - "Remember, whatever happens tonight, you brought it on yourself' - is perfectly in line with this, and the Doctor officially throwing down the gauntlet. And then... then we get the opposite of 'Because you didn't remember her name': The old man can't strike the child. And the Doctor realises that there is more to him - that he is redeemable after all. (Loved the Sherlocking!) You know, I think he probably had a plan, originally, some way of kicking Kazran's ass all over town if he wouldn't co-operate. And then instead he throws it out of the window and chooses to look for a different way. It's like a bait-and-switch in terms of plot. :)

And then we get the fish, swimming round the lamp post, and Christmas carols playing and everything clicks into place... Love the fish, btw. Love, love, love. Plus the fog - the whole feel of the place - was so Dickensian that I almost melted...

The city clocks had only just gone three, but it was quite dark already: it had not been light all day: and candles were flaring in the windows of neighbouring offices, like ruddy smears upon the palpable brown air. The fog came pouring in at every chink and keyhole, and was so dense without, that although the court was of the narrowest, the houses opposite were mere phantoms. To see the dingy cloud come drooping down, obscuring everything, one might have thought that Nature lived hard by and was brewing on a large scale.

Which brings us to the Christmas carol playing over the loud speakers, which makes the Doctor decide to cast himself as the Ghost of Christmas Past... Some have described this as the Doctor basically writing self-insert fanfic, and that's pretty close to the mark. But it's more than that, considering the way storytelling is Moffat's leitmotif. The Doctor at the end of S5 quite literally becomes a story, and nothing more, until Amy brings him back. We have River Song, the keeper of his story, carrying his tales around in a book. (There is even echoes in RTD's era... John Smith: "What am I then, nothing? Just a story?") Writing himself into people's lives is what he does. Young Kazran is sad that he doesn't have a story about the day the fish came... ("Everyone has a story."/"But you don't...") and within minutes the Doctor has given him one! (A shark in his bedroom, no less.) But this is it... Stories are how we communicate, how we view the world. And - by the way - re-writing history, making the protagonist watch his own story unfold as his past is changed? I don't have the words to describe the level of delight this causes me. The timey-wimey-ness is clever, of course, but it's the story that's the point. (Or, in other words: The timey-wimey-ness is transport. The *story* is the amazing thing!) And whilst I'm on this topic I must take a moment to admire the way in which the story, 'A Christmas Carol' is used by the Doctor to save the day, re-writing Kazran's life story - inspired by an actual Christmas carol, that he hears. And then the day is saved by Abigail singing a Christmas carol. It's like a Moebious strip, the whole thing folding in and around itself. Or - it's a story that's bigger on the inside. ;)

For the next bit I'm going to quote Matt Smith: “The Doctor loves Christmas [because] it’s showcasing humans at their most open and giving and kind…everything The Doctor’s about.” I absolutely love that this Christmas episode confirms that unequivocally, because I had this exchange going round my in my head:

COPPER: Rather ironic when this is very much in the spirit of Christmas. It's a festival of violence. They say that human beings only survive depending on whether they've been good or bad. It's barbaric.
THE DOCTOR: Actually, that's not true. Christmas is a time of -- of peace and thanksgiving and...what am I on about? Christmas is always like this.

I'm not sure that's completely correct - I have a recollection of him saying 'my Christmas is always like this' - but whatever the case, I love that here he gets to have numerous happy Christmasses (one after the other), full of fezzes and scarves and bowties and fun travels with a happy young boy and a gorgeous young woman, and that he embraces it so joyfully, so completely sure that Christmas is good! I'm not trying to put Ten down, btw. But I'm trying to pin something down, a difference of perspective...

These are only generalisations, of course, but I think that RTD's view of heartache is generally something that comes from the outside, breaking people's happiness. Moffat has a more organic view - the crashing space liner is only a catalyst, and is saved with no loss of life. The loss in the episode is in-built, unavoidable, a part of life to be accepted, not fought against. (It's that water metaphor again. Do you try to fight it, or do you flow with it?) Oh! I know! I was going to save this for its own post, but it fits here (promethia, this is all yours, really):

It's the difference between 'pure science' and 'applied science': Applied science is the exact science of applying knowledge from one or more natural scientific fields to practical problems. Many applied sciences can be considered forms of engineering. Pure science, also called basic science, is the exact science of the development of scientific theories. This research is done at times without consideration of their application, and at other times aims to answer phenomena and possible mechanisms proposed in applied science. It is the counterpart of applied science.

Now Ten's era, I think, is generally applied science - there is a problem, and the Doctor finds a way to solve it. Eleven, on the other hand, tends to look at the whole system until he understands it, and then knows how to work with the system to change things. I'm not saying these are cast iron rules or anything, but the way he deals with Kazran illustrates the difference rather beautifully: At first the Doctor's going to fight him, using force to make him do what he wants. But then - using knowledge gained from observation - decides to instead use the system (re-writing Kazran's life) in order to achieve his means. So, I think that's it: RTD mostly uses outside forces to alter things, and Moffat mostly uses things inherent in people's lives. What do you think? (ETA: I think that these are probably just two modes of storytelling, and they both use both, they just tend to favour one over the other. Also RTD is character-led and Moffat story-led etc.etc. Really, I'm just rambling.)

Anyway - there are things that cannot be altered...

Which brings me to Abigail. I have to say, that when DW fridges a woman, it does it quite literally, and there is certainly something about the beautiful woman who gets taken out once a year but in the end has to die that's... problematic. But, she undoubtedly works in the story. Plus, if we see her as the Tiny Tim stand-in, she doesn't survive just because she gets a rich benefactor (plenty of shades of Vincent here), which again ties in with what I said above. Particularly the very beginning, when Kazran calls her unimportant, only to end up having her become the most important person in his life. Like I said - 'surplus population' is a key phrase:

    'If these shadows remain unaltered by the Future, none other of my race,' returned the Ghost, 'will find him [Tiny Tim] here. What, then? If he be like to die, he had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.'
    Scrooge hung his head to hear his own words quoted back by the Spirit, and was overcome with penitence and grief.

It's about everyone being important - not for what they can do, or their talents, but for who they are.

But I also thought of something else re. Abigail. When the Doctor asks about the numbers on her box, she says: "You say you are a doctor - are you one of mine?" Which made me wonder if the reason her family amassed such a big debt was in order to find a cure for her. And also why poor Kazran couldn't - her family had already tried everything.

Of course, there were infinite shades of 'To the Last Man' in the Abigail/Kazran love story, but it rather highlights the differences in story telling I was trying to pin down above. Abigail's illness is an unalterable part of her life. Poor Tommy is a victim of circumstance, or fate, Torchwood and the rift coming in and changing his life without him having much say in anything. Abigail volunteers to be frozen (because she can't have a life anyway). It's not a case of one being a better kind of story, they're just different. And in the end they both save the day. :)

Oh! That reminds me: One of the most touching parts was all the passengers singing ("They're singing for their lives..."). There's something absolutely beautiful in that (shades of 'Gridlock'). And I just adored the ending and the 'Sky Full of Song'. Which made it snow... *deep happy sigh* I've had the tune stuck in my head ever since, and I am impatiently waiting for someone clever to put it up on youtube. So pretty. Plus, it's the theme used for the 'sleigh ride'.

But, there is also Kazran himself of course. "I learned life's most invaluable lesson!"/"Which is?"/"Nobody comes!" Except then someone does... Moffat really does this bit brilliantly, but - just like with Amy - knowing the Doctor doesn't automatically lead to a *better* life, just a different one. "An old friend of mine once took a very long time to explain that life isn't fair." And that final confrontation... The Ghost of Christmas Future indeed. Really, just masterful. In the original, of course, Scrooge is already a changed man by the time the third ghost shows up - the visions of the future appertain to the man he was, and work to re-enforce his resolve to change. Kazran, on the other hand, has ended up hardened in a different manner... A manner which makes it easier for him to break down barriers, but still, a very different story.

Going back to the Doctor again, I love how once more this episode demonstrates the madness that is his life. He has a whole adventure with new friends, going to all kinds of places and having a lot of fun, whilst Amy and Rory are in deadly peril for an hour... Is it any wonder that he tends to be absentminded, going off on strange trails of thought? That's how his life is.



Sundries/Squee

- Darcy, a few days before Christmas, caught one of the trailers for the Special. Realising it featured Michael Gambon, he was convinced that they would 'waste' him and not give him anything interesting to do. (He's still bitter that they had Derek Jacobi and then didn't use him as the Master, instead going with John Simm. He does not appreciate Simm's particular talents, I'm afraid.) After we'd finished watching, however, he turned to me and said: 'Now that was miles better than any other Christmas Special they've ever done. Just infinitely better writing. Plus the new guy is a far better, and more interesting, actor!' So, yeah, he's a Moffat fan. (If he could read this he'd tell me that he's not a 'fan' of anything. He just has taste! ::insert withering look:: Sadly, DT's ability to radiate pain really didn't work on him at all...) Ah well, I'm not complaining. The sheer relief of not to have to brace myself for rolled eyes after every episode is something I'm enjoying rather a lot.

- I think we need look no further than Kazran's initial speech to find Moffat's opinion on the current government. Just sayin'.

- "Christmas Eve on a rooftop, saw a chimney, my whole brain just went "Why the hell not?" Eleventy, I love you too much for words.

- Oh goodness, too many brilliant things to count, I'm realising. The sleigh ride, the card tricks, the sky full of fish (so beautiful!), the fezzes, the psychic paper shorting out, THE DOCTOR MARRYING MARILYN MONROE!!!!, the shark in the bedroom (Moffat's childhood fear!), all the brilliant, brilliant lines - esp 'halfway out of the dark', etc. etc.

- "It's this, or going to your room and designing a new kind of screwdriver. Don't make my mistakes." I love, love, LOVE how the Moff is stealthily pushing a Doctor/Master agenda here. Best comment on this was by tabula_x_rasa, who almost made me choke with this exchange:

"Theta, where are you going?"

"I have a lot of shelves to put up!"

- Eleven's face after the "Better a broken heart, than no heart at all."/ "You try it then!" exchange. Ten would have done that thing of looking like a man-shaped ball of pain, but Eleven just goes very quiet and says nothing. Partly, I think, because he understands that other people's pain and empathy really don't mean much at all when you, yourself, are hurting. Yet another lesson learned from having been Ten... (And as for the 'If you had only one day left with your beloved, which one would you choose?', then my mind instantly thought: 'Well I didn't get a choice, so - of course - it was the day the Daleks decided to destroy the universe. And after the day had been saved, I dumped her off in a parallel world and told her to marry my clone. So really, don't complain, it could be much, much worse!' But I doubt Kazran would have appreciated that...)

ETA: OMG! owlsie just made me realise... "The last time I saw you, the real you, the future you, I mean - you turned up on my doorstep, with a new haircut and a suit. You took me to Darillium to see the singing towers. Oh, what a night that was! The towers sang, and you cried."

Oh Doctor! Every story is your story, isn't it?

- The trailer. OMG the trailer. There was all the awesome parts (naked!River, the Doctor in the Oval Office ordering jammy dodgers and a fez, the Stetson, River shooting the Stetson off his head, Amy and Rory and an Ood with green eyes and the proto-TARDIS we saw in The Lodger (I KNEW IT!!!!!), Musketeers, bearded!Doctor... And yet there were weird scary things with big heads and Amy (and River) with odd little lines drawn on their bodies, and Amy screaming and Rory not reaching a door in time. And I'm curling up into a little ball, going 'Don't break the pretty, don't break the pretty, don't break the pretty...' because we've had one happy ending and I'm not counting on TWO, and Amy and Rory are the logical targets for badness, since both River and the Doctor are safe due to their continued stories and I am full of anticipation and worry. (I am a Buffy fan, and thus scarred for life...)

ANYWAY, that is all for I HAVE to stop now.

Comments

[elisi]

Love the analogy.
I owe it to Darcy! (And you, of course.) He was talking about a programme he saw on this, and about how with the recession funding is drying up for pure science. And yet about 95% of new inventions come from pure science, from quite simply learning to understand how something works... And it struck me that this was exactly what you've been saying about Eleven standing back and working out the whole system.

2) I feel like Moffat must be using this story and Amy's rewriting as a set-up for similar sorts of messing around in someone else's personal timeline in season 6 that will go badly wrong. There were sort of dark undertones to what Eleven was doing here and Kazran voices objections to it all when he's talking with Amy.
You know what really struck me about that conversation? Amy explaining what the Doctor was doing, ending with 'He was trying to do it nicely.' Made me flail rather a lot, I can tell you.

Oooo--also, the system kept fighting back--first by making Kazran miserable because of Abigail instead, then by making him unable to control the machine anymore. And then ultimately there was still a price to be paid (Abigail's life)--but there is always a price . . . And now I'm thinking about Amy again and fixing her life and what's wrong with her this season. /ramble
Rambling good! But yes - I'm not saying that one approach is *better* than the other (well Ten braking all the rules in WoM is an extreme example of 'applied science' and clearly wrong. Have you read kaffyr's meta on that ep? You must have) - um where was I? Yeah, there's always a price.

Oooo . . . lovely. And there's something nice in there about fighting so hard to prevent the inevitable that you ultimately stop living (the enemy isn't change or death--it's stasis), which I guess was the same point they were making with Kazran hoarding her last day alive, and THEY LITERALLY FROZE TIME I'M SO HAPPY I COULD SPIT. *flail* (expect meta)
Meta!!!!

*flails again* Song, Elisi! And water.
RIVER SONG!!!! *g*

The skies aren't horrible and dangerous, they don't need to be controlled with a machine, but can be soothed with song instead! I love allegories so much . . . uh, you may have noticed.
LOL! I can't explain how FABULOUS it is to have someone to talk to who gets as excited as me about stuff like this. ♥

Lol--bigger on the inside, indeed!
It's a metaphor inside a metaphor inside a metaphor...

I do like reminders that there may have been some benefit to all Ten's suffering.
I do my best! :)

HALF WAY OUT OF THE DARK! (Also, there was something in Abigail's song about letting in the shadows.)
I really, really, really want her song! I've barely made out any of it yet, 'cause I don't have the time...

Actually, I've gotta say that I do have my fears for Amy and Rory too (and for the Doc and River--I could see things getting dark and ugly there), but I think I have a lot of trust that in Moffat's writing anything bad that happens to them isn't going to be simply HORRIBLE AND MEANINGLESS, which is the thing that really bothers me with angsty storylines.
*nods a lot* I look forward to talking Torchwood with you. Oh yes. ;)

Anyway, yay, I'm glad you got this up. Loved hearing your thoughts on this one.
Loved your comments and look forward to what you come up with! (I love who anything I write is always just the starting point.)

Cracked up over your love for the Dickens original--should have seen that one coming, lol.
*laughs* It's a WONDERFUL BOOK! *nods firmly*

I suppose I can continue to associate with you, although if anyone ever questions me on the matter I shall have to deny everything ;-)
Seems the only way forward...

[promethia_tenk]

He was talking about a programme he saw on this, and about how with the recession funding is drying up for pure science. And yet about 95% of new inventions come from pure science, from quite simply learning to understand how something works... And it struck me that this was exactly what you've been saying about Eleven standing back and working out the whole system.
*nod, nod, nod* Physics! It's all physics!

You know what really struck me about that conversation? Amy explaining what the Doctor was doing, ending with 'He was trying to do it nicely.' Made me flail rather a lot, I can tell you.
OOo, yes, that was shivers, that was. (Read 'Continuity Errors'--it'll get worse.)

But yes - I'm not saying that one approach is *better* than the other (well Ten braking all the rules in WoM is an extreme example of 'applied science' and clearly wrong. Have you read [info]kaffyr's meta on that ep? You must have) - um where was I? Yeah, there's always a price.
Agreed--it's all about balance, not about any one direction being wrong. (And, yes, I have read. I'm sure you pointed me towards it too.)

LOL! I can't explain how FABULOUS it is to have someone to talk to who gets as excited as me about stuff like this. ♥
*allegories dance* *flail, flail*

I really, really, really want her song! I've barely made out any of it yet, 'cause I don't have the time...
I saw a transcript of it somewhere, which is how I got some of the words. I'm assuming Moffat did the lyrics and not Murray Gold because they fit so perfectly. It was really gorgeous, though, wasn't it?

I look forward to talking Torchwood with you. Oh yes. ;)
I've watched the first two episodes, and it was . . . RTD. I mean it wasn't *bad* but there was much eye rolling and at one point I had to pause and go watch Sherlock lecturing John Watson about not caring--just to restore some balance to the universe. I'm willing to give it more of a chance, but I think I might just jump to watching Children of Earth (it's written to be watchable as a stand-alone, yes?) I mean, I know I'll be missing a lot of nuances of back-story, but I figure if RTD can't hook me with that it's just never going to happen, you know?

(I love who anything I write is always just the starting point.)
You write the best starting points.

*laughs* It's a WONDERFUL BOOK! *nods firmly*
lol. You enjoy it then. I'll enjoy my grumping *grump*

[elisi]

*nod, nod, nod* Physics! It's all physics!
And I was always a Mathematician... Darn. (You are one or the other. As far as I can tell there's no middle way, except the 'not getting any of it'...)

OOo, yes, that was shivers, that was. (Read 'Continuity Errors'--it'll get worse.)
Oh I shall read that story, no worries. Family of Blood was what sprung to mind, immediately, and then Moffat talking in the Confidential about how the Doctor changes plans... Because normally he could just crush someone like Kazran like that. The power he has really is pretty terrifying. ETA: Actually. RTD's thing about needing Companions who could 'stop' him isn't quite right, btw. The only person who can stop him is himself, or someone like him [with the same level of power] - what Companions do is remind him of what he ought to do, who he is. Hmm, I like this. Because what he does with Companions is tell them as story about who and what he is - a story they then hold him to, and that he tries to live up to. (Clearly if I can find a way to tie something back to my favourite theme, then I can do so!)

Agreed--it's all about balance, not about any one direction being wrong.
Yup, balance. And now I'm thinking about seesaws. :)

*allegories dance* *flail, flail*
ALLEGORIES DANCE!!! *laughs out loud in delight* That should be on icons!

I saw a transcript of it somewhere, which is how I got some of the words. I'm assuming Moffat did the lyrics and not Murray Gold because they fit so perfectly. It was really gorgeous, though, wasn't it?
In case you've not seen my latest post, I've got it HERE! \o/ And yes, I wonder if Moffat wrote the lyrics... 'When you're alone, silence is all you see/When you're alone, silence is all you be' (That's the beginning only, there's bit at the end where I forget to listen to the lyrics and just go with the music...)

I've watched the first two episodes, and it was . . . RTD. I mean it wasn't *bad* but there was much eye rolling and at one point I had to pause and go watch Sherlock lecturing John Watson about not caring--just to restore some balance to the universe.
*laughs* Yeah. It's very RTD!

I'm willing to give it more of a chance, but I think I might just jump to watching Children of Earth (it's written to be watchable as a stand-alone, yes?) I mean, I know I'll be missing a lot of nuances of back-story, but I figure if RTD can't hook me with that it's just never going to happen, you know?
I can give you a shortlist of the best episodes in the first two seasons if you like? ETA: From S1 I'd recommend 'Cyberwoman' (crack on a magnificent scale, but it gives you Ianto's backstory), 'They Keep Killing Suzie' (genuinely good episode) and 'Out of Time' (lovely and very subdued episode). Read brief summaries for the rest. (Captain Jack Harkness is lovely in many ways, yet it makes me cringe like few things ever. You know how RTD has 'a gay agenda'? In that ep he uses a megaphone... All the stuff around it is rather neat, but then it starts shouting at the viewers and I cringe.)

You write the best starting points.
Aw, thank you! :) (Also, just looking at it, that's one of the weirdest compliments someone could get, but I wouldn't swap it for anything!)

lol. You enjoy it then. I'll enjoy my grumping *grump*
Grumping can be very enjoyable!

[promethia_tenk]

And I was always a Mathematician... Darn. (You are one or the other.
I'm not sure I grasp the exact distinction here . . . ? (And I am *this close* to breaking into goopy, lovelorn tones about calculus right now.)

As far as I can tell there's no middle way, except the 'not getting any of it'...
Lol--now there's a plan! Must try that sometime.

Family of Blood was what sprung to mind, immediately, and then Moffat talking in the Confidential about how the Doctor changes plans... Because normally he could just crush someone like Kazran like that. The power he has really is pretty terrifying.
But HOOOWWWWWW?!?!?! Ok, I do like HN/FoB for at least giving some illustration of how the Doctor's powers really are superhuman, but 95% of the time all we get is another bipedal with a really big brain and the ability to change his face, plus a whole lot of vague assurances: oh yes, really very terrifying. Uh huh, we swear. Horrible things, ok? . . . . I know I've ranted at you about this before. One thing I love about 'Continuity Errors' is that it really makes the Doctor alien and threatening and is specific in the dangers it shows.

ETA: Actually. RTD's thing about needing Companions who could 'stop' him isn't quite right, btw. The only person who can stop him is himself, or someone like him [with the same level of power] - what Companions do is remind him of what he ought to do, who he is.
I . . . love this utterly. I mean, really, I'm not sure I can explain how much. Because I hate the idea of the Doctor being someone who needs controlling, even if so much of what Ten did made it very hard to avoid that conclusion. But the thing is that people can't really control each other, can't really stop each other, and attempts to do so are demeaning to everyone involved. The only real control is self control. And I love the idea that what the Doctor really needs is another perspective, that that is enough to keep him on track, because that makes knowledge more powerful than force and . . . I've got things to say on Moffat's attitude towards personal integrity that you should read Continuity Errors for and Owlsie had a great insight on what what actually causes Kazran to change and why which ties in too *flail*

Hmm, I like this. Because what he does with Companions is tell them as story about who and what he is - a story they then hold him to, and that he tries to live up to. (Clearly if I can find a way to tie something back to my favourite theme, then I can do so!)
<3 Although arguably Amy gave *him* a story, rather than him giving his story to her. Or I guess he gave her parts, but she intuited the key bit. I love how they helped each other grow . . .

Yup, balance. And now I'm thinking about seesaws. :)
:) Have you read this fic that tries to illustrate how the Doctor might perceive time? Any attempt to describe how much I love that fic would just sound wildly hyperbolic, but it's all about balance too, really.

ALLEGORIES DANCE!!! *laughs out loud in delight* That should be on icons!
=D Have you seen the animated icon floating around of Kermit the Frog flailing in a completely berserk manner with YAY! over it? That's roughly my allegories dance, I think.

I can give you a shortlist of the best episodes in the first two seasons if you like? ETA: From S1 I'd recommend . . .
Ah, thanks. If I find something to hook me I'll probably go back and fill in, but I know I don't feel like wrestling with more of RTD's writing just for its own sake.

Aw, thank you! :) (Also, just looking at it, that's one of the weirdest compliments someone could get, but I wouldn't swap it for anything!)
You're very welcome. Well, it is the truth, and that's pretty much what I can say for it.

[elisi]

I'm not sure I grasp the exact distinction here . . . ? (And I am *this close* to breaking into goopy, lovelorn tones about calculus right now.)
LOL! I'm not sure how to explain it, to be honest. But people either see the world in mathematics or in physics - it was glaringly obvious with our teachers in High School. Because the same teachers would teach both subjects, but some would always tend to use maths to explain/illustrate physics, and some do the opposite. It's the difference between pure mathematics and the experimental side to physics I think.

But HOOOWWWWWW?!?!?! ... One thing I love about 'Continuity Errors' is that it really makes the Doctor alien and threatening and is specific in the dangers it shows.
I HAS READ IT!!! And yes, v. terrifying! Which reminds me... From S2 of Torchwood you should watch 'Kiss Kiss Bang Bang' (So. Much. Fun!), 'To The Last Man' (the TW counterpart to 'A Christmas Carol'), 'Adam' (memory altering OMG!!!! This was the ep that made me fall for the meta side of TW). Then there's 'Reset'/'Dead Man Walking'/'A Day in the Death' (these are the episodes where Martha guest stars and they are very Owen-centric. I like them, but feel free to skip if that doesn't sound like your cup of tea), 'Something Borrowed' (Gwen's wedding - good fun, but not essential) and 'Fragments' (the stories of how each TW member was recruited. Some parts better than others, but the parts that work are *amazing*!). 'Exit Wounds' is... heartbreaking, but the plot holes are TERRIBLE! So avoid if you want.

I . . . love this utterly. I mean, really, I'm not sure I can explain how much. Because I hate the idea of the Doctor being someone who needs controlling, even if so much of what Ten did made it very hard to avoid that conclusion. But the thing is that people can't really control each other, can't really stop each other, and attempts to do so are demeaning to everyone involved. The only real control is self control.
I thought you'd like it! :) And yes, that's exactly what I was thinking. After all, what exactly could Donna have *done* to stop the Doctor turning Victorious in WoM? Slapped him really hard? What she would have 'done' is force him to explain to her why they needed to leave - and after Pompeii, she'd understand perfectly.

And I love the idea that what the Doctor really needs is another perspective, that that is enough to keep him on track, because that makes knowledge more powerful than force and . . . I've got things to say on Moffat's attitude towards personal integrity that you should read Continuity Errors for and Owlsie had a great insight on what what actually causes Kazran to change and why which ties in too *flail*
TALK TO ME!!! (And I shall go read owlsie! Might just do a friending thing now I'm at it...)


<3 Although arguably Amy gave *him* a story, rather than him giving his story to her. Or I guess he gave her parts, but she intuited the key bit. I love how they helped each other grow . . .
That is very true. I love The Beast Below... <3

:) Have you read this fic that tries to illustrate how the Doctor might perceive time? Any attempt to describe how much I love that fic would just sound wildly hyperbolic, but it's all about balance too, really.
Yes! Yes I have!

=D Have you seen the animated icon floating around of Kermit the Frog flailing in a completely berserk manner with YAY! over it? That's roughly my allegories dance, I think.
*laughs* That's perfect!

You're very welcome. Well, it is the truth, and that's pretty much what I can say for it.
Finding truth is always the most important thing. :)

[promethia_tenk]

LOL! I'm not sure how to explain it, to be honest. But people either see the world in mathematics or in physics . . . It's the difference between pure mathematics and the experimental side to physics I think.
Is it an abstract vs. concrete thing? Being able to show physics demonstrations? Because I've gotta say, when I took second-year physics and calculus together my senior year of high school, I loved that they were essentially the same thing (and my wonderful physics teacher refused to do labs because he knew that at that level, if you didn't understand it through the equations, you weren't actually understanding what was going on <3 ) But then, calculus is very spatial math--much more . . . tangible than, say, algebra in a weird way /geekery

Which reminds me... From S2 of Torchwood you should watch . . .
Many thanks!

I HAS READ IT!!! And yes, v. terrifying! . . . TALK TO ME!!! (And I shall go read [info]owlsie!
Ok, let me think how I want to say this (too many thoughts in head--forgive me if I repeat myself too much). I'm assuming that the Christmas special contains a huge amount of foreshadowing for the coming season, at the very least on that symbolic/allegorical level. I suspect that it is also a way to introduce the audience to this concept of rewriting someone's past within the friendly and familiar context of a story they already know so that in the coming season he can go back to the same idea in more complicated and darker ways à la 'Continuity Errors.' I've suspected for a long time that the Doctor's character arc is going to require a return to some of the Time Lord Victorious themes as a way to really iron out exactly how much power he should exercise over time and to help him find a healthy balance in such things. To do that in the story will probably require him to overstep his bounds again in some way like he did in WoM, but I wasn't quite sure how that might happen, exactly. Now I'm thinking that it will be in going too far to rewrite someone's past and personality, and my top guess for who 'the best man River's ever known' will be is someone who the Doctor will reshape in this way (there's something in the hyperbole of those statements--'the best man' 'a hero to many'--that feels a little suspicious. But what if this great man didn't start out that way, wasn't really meant to be that way?) As you said about what Donna might have potentially done in WoM--what could she do, really? What recourse did she have to stop him? (And what recourse did Adelaide use?) Well, what could a person do, really, to stop the Doctor if he'd made someone into his pawn so completely as he did in 'Continuity Errors'? I think you would have to kill the pawn.

But here's the thing--I've been thinking all the above for awhile now (a couple months), but I'm not sure I want to be right anymore :( It would feel like such a failing on all sides *smacks self upside the head for being sentimental*

At any rate, here's what Owlsie said that got me thinking:

The Doctor spends the whole episode messing with Kazran's life, trying to shape him into what he wants for his purposes, and it fails. In the end, it has to be Kazran's choice. The Doctor lets go of trying to control the adult and places the power completely into child Kazran's hands . . . I think the whole idea of it was that while the Doctor has all these cool time powers, he has absolutely no control over people's choices to be good or evil, no matter /how/ much he can influence the past. If he did, he really would be like some scary omnipotent god. It is essential that Kazran make that choice for himself.

[gotta break this up . . .]

[promethia_tenk]

I'd been questioning myself about why what Seven does in 'Continuity Errors' feels like such an absolute violation while what Eleven did with Kazran feels a little creepy but still essentially ok, and I think Owlsie has got it. The librarian in CE had no choice whatsoever in what was going on and it was all very much behind her back--in the end the Doctor succeeded in completely undermining that core of personal integrity that she had. Eleven with Kazran first of all was very upfront about what he was doing when he was rewriting Kazran's past (which didn't give Kazran a way to stop it, but at least he knew), and the universe seems to have fought back to keep him from crossing an essential line there--the Doctor was able to change Kazran's past but not Kazran. In the end, what changed Kazran was Kazran himself--the decision of the child. All the Doctor could do was give him a story. It wasn't the story he had intended to give him, it was a very negative story--here is who you will become--but it was a story nonetheless, and Kazran had to be the one to decide how to act upon it, which is exactly what you said about the Doctor and his companions and how they help him to stay on course with himself. In both cases, personal integrity requires that people be allowed to make their own choices, and forcing the person into doing something is ultimately less effective than providing them with that story, that alternate perspective, that allows them to see themselves from outside.

But what is it, really, that's keeping that line intact, protecting the individual? The universe seems to have some kind of say in it, with the way it resists big changes, but we've seen the Doctor violate the universe's protections before. If the Doctor forces his way across that line, is the only way to rectify it by meeting force with force? If Eleven went full 'Continuity Errors' on somebody, it would be choosing force over story. If River shot whoever he'd rewritten instead of successfully reminding him of himself and getting him to stop himself, she would be doing the same. It would be a failing on all sides. I'm not sure I want to see that *smacks self again*

Like I said, I've gone sentimental. But does that make sense?

:) Have you read this fic that tries to illustrate how the Doctor might perceive time? Any attempt to describe how much I love that fic would just sound wildly hyperbolic, but it's all about balance too, really.
Yes! Yes I have!
I LOVE IT SO MUCH I WANT TO ROLL AROUND IN IT <3333333

Finding truth is always the most important thing. :)
I rather think so, yes :)

[elisi]

The librarian in CE had no choice whatsoever in what was going on and it was all very much behind her back--in the end the Doctor succeeded in completely undermining that core of personal integrity that she had. Eleven with Kazran first of all was very upfront about what he was doing when he was rewriting Kazran's past (which didn't give Kazran a way to stop it, but at least he knew), and the universe seems to have fought back to keep him from crossing an essential line there--the Doctor was able to change Kazran's past but not Kazran. In the end, what changed Kazran was Kazran himself--the decision of the child.
*nods a lot*

All the Doctor could do was give him a story. It wasn't the story he had intended to give him, it was a very negative story--here is who you will become--but it was a story nonetheless, and Kazran had to be the one to decide how to act upon it, which is exactly what you said about the Doctor and his companions and how they help him to stay on course with himself. In both cases, personal integrity requires that people be allowed to make their own choices, and forcing the person into doing something is ultimately less effective than providing them with that story, that alternate perspective, that allows them to see themselves from outside.
I like this very much. Especially because it's all about stories, and that's what it all comes back to, it's it? It's what he does throughout S5. He tells stories - tells people stories about who they are... (I always come back to Sophie in The Lodger, because it's so perfect.)

If the Doctor forces his way across that line, is the only way to rectify it by meeting force with force? If Eleven went full 'Continuity Errors' on somebody, it would be choosing force over story. If River shot whoever he'd rewritten instead of successfully reminding him of himself and getting him to stop himself, she would be doing the same. It would be a failing on all sides. I'm not sure I want to see that *smacks self again*
Hmmm. Don't really have anything to add to this, but I am now even more curious about S6. And interestingly, if something like this happens, it means that the whole thing turns around the Doctor - the Doctor as the story - rather than some outside plotpoint. Although what about the Silence??? Darn, this is why speculating always gives me a headache...

Like I said, I've gone sentimental. But does that make sense?
LOTS AND LOTS!

I LOVE IT SO MUCH I WANT TO ROLL AROUND IN IT <3333333
LOL. :)

[elisi]

and my wonderful physics teacher refused to do labs because he knew that at that level, if you didn't understand it through the equations, you weren't actually understanding what was going on <3
<3 <3 <3 Brilliant! :) (Although he sounds like a Mathematician...)

Many thanks!
My pleasure! Enjoy!

I'm assuming that the Christmas special contains a huge amount of foreshadowing for the coming season, at the very least on that symbolic/allegorical level. I suspect that it is also a way to introduce the audience to this concept of rewriting someone's past within the friendly and familiar context of a story they already know so that in the coming season he can go back to the same idea in more complicated and darker ways à la 'Continuity Errors.'
Leaving aside the specificness of your thoughts, then can I just say that I LOVE LOVE LOVE the fact that we can look at the Christmas Special and expect foreshadowing? RTD had a tendency to go back and find something and elaborate on it (like making Wilf Donna's grandad etc) but Moffat genuinely thinks, and plans, ahead. (With Moffat, every day is Christmas! *flails*)

What recourse did she have to stop him? (And what recourse did Adelaide use?) Well, what could a person do, really, to stop the Doctor if he'd made someone into his pawn so completely as he did in 'Continuity Errors'? I think you would have to kill the pawn.
Oooooh, that is very shiny. Dark, but shiny. And yes, I can absolutely see River acting like that - and the Doctor ending up in that place.

But here's the thing--I've been thinking all the above for awhile now (a couple months), but I'm not sure I want to be right anymore :( It would feel like such a failing on all sides *smacks self upside the head for being sentimental*
Being sentimental is not a bad thing! And don't forget about the Silence...

[promethia_tenk]

<3 <3 <3 Brilliant! :) (Although he sounds like a Mathematician...)
He was the best--it was a very good year. I'll revise my earlier statement, then: math! It's all math! (But cool math, not arithmetic. Or statistics, ugh.)

Leaving aside the specificness of your thoughts, then can I just say that I LOVE LOVE LOVE the fact that we can look at the Christmas Special and expect foreshadowing?
Dear god, yes. I read some review that was like "it seemed a little light weight for Moffat, just a shallow bit of Christmas fluff without much to it, but oh well, season six will be completely different." Which had me gaping at the screen in incomprehension. I'm not sure Moffat could write something that was just shallow entertainment if he tried--deeper connections would sneak in unbidden.

Oooooh, that is very shiny. Dark, but shiny. And yes, I can absolutely see River acting like that - and the Doctor ending up in that place.
Thank you. Also: *whimper* *pets them fretfully* Tragedy is always a failure of imagination . . .

Being sentimental is not a bad thing! And don't forget about the Silence...
Moffat, what have you done to me?!? *sigh* At any rate, what if at some late point in the season, Silence did actually fall, and no one was able to talk to each other any more, and they all had to fight their way out from under that? That would be interesting.

I like this very much. Especially because it's all about stories, and that's what it all comes back to, it's it? It's what he does throughout S5. He tells stories - tells people stories about who they are... (I always come back to Sophie in The Lodger, because it's so perfect.)
OOo, yes. And with Sophie it was a lying sort of story, which fits in nicely with his manipulativeness, but it was still a story and a good one too.

And interestingly, if something like this happens, it means that the whole thing turns around the Doctor - the Doctor as the story - rather than some outside plotpoint. Although what about the Silence??? Darn, this is why speculating always gives me a headache...
Well, it is his story, isn't it? Or, rather, he is the story--the only story you'll ever tell, if you survive him! Although I kind of assume that the reason the Doctor might try rewriting this "best man" is as part of fighting the Silence, somehow. You don't just do things like that on a whim. But then there's also something wrong with Amy, and Rory's going to be on the brink of a terrible mistake, and . . . yeah, you can only speculate so far, really.

LOTS AND LOTS!
\o/

[elisi]

He was the best--it was a very good year. I'll revise my earlier statement, then: math! It's all math! (But cool math, not arithmetic. Or statistics, ugh.)
*cheers for maths*

Dear god, yes. I read some review that was like "it seemed a little light weight for Moffat, just a shallow bit of Christmas fluff without much to it, but oh well, season six will be completely different." Which had me gaping at the screen in incomprehension. I'm not sure Moffat could write something that was just shallow entertainment if he tried--deeper connections would sneak in unbidden.
*nods a LOT* I've probably mentioned this before, but Moffat's Who in so many ways feels like having Buffy back, because of all the meta. Not that there isn't meta in RTD's Who - see solitary_summer's exquisite essay - but it's more about RTD exploring the themes that interest him (humanity's greatness/monstrousness) than the careful and deliberate layering of themes and metaphors.

Thank you. Also: *whimper* *pets them fretfully* Tragedy is always a failure of imagination...
Oh I shall HAVE to make that post about faith and tragedy and stuff...

Moffat, what have you done to me?!? *sigh* At any rate, what if at some late point in the season, Silence did actually fall, and no one was able to talk to each other any more, and they all had to fight their way out from under that? That would be interesting.
Um. If you can get hold of 'Hush' (Buffy S4, ep 10), watch it! Trust me...

OOo, yes. And with Sophie it was a lying sort of story, which fits in nicely with his manipulativeness, but it was still a story and a good one too.
Well it was such a blatant lie that she told the truth by accident, as it was. :)

Well, it is his story, isn't it? Or, rather, he is the story--the only story you'll ever tell, if you survive him!
Indeed.

Although I kind of assume that the reason the Doctor might try rewriting this "best man" is as part of fighting the Silence, somehow. You don't just do things like that on a whim.
This all sounds very plausible.

But then there's also something wrong with Amy, and Rory's going to be on the brink of a terrible mistake, and . . . yeah, you can only speculate so far, really.
Don't break the pretty, don't break the pretty, don't break the pretty...

Oh and I had to snag this icon, it's just too adorable! ♥

[promethia_tenk]

Oh and I had to snag this icon, it's just too adorable! ♥
OFFICIAL ICON OF FLUFF AND JOY AND LOVE AND BUNNIES AND HAPPY THINGS (also useful for Amy/Rory). And of course, there are other icons of the same scene, but none this gorgeous <3

it's more about RTD exploring the themes that interest him (humanity's greatness/monstrousness) than the careful and deliberate layering of themes and metaphors.
I fully believe that RTD's Who is deep. But it is deep in exactly one way.

Oh I shall HAVE to make that post about faith and tragedy and stuff...
Yes, yes you must. *twiddles thumbs*

Um. If you can get hold of 'Hush' (Buffy S4, ep 10), watch it! Trust me...
I think it's on Netflix. Although I'll remind you that I only have so many hours in the day ;-)

Don't break the pretty, don't break the pretty, don't break the pretty...
Dammit--I was intent on being optimistic *huddles and rocks*

[elisi]

OFFICIAL ICON OF FLUFF AND JOY AND LOVE AND BUNNIES AND HAPPY THINGS (also useful for Amy/Rory). And of course, there are other icons of the same scene, but none this gorgeous <3
You are 100% correct. I've tried to resist, but in the end I had to have it...

I fully believe that RTD's Who is deep. But it is deep in exactly one way.
Ah. Now that is very insightful.

Yes, yes you must. *twiddles thumbs*
*cries*

I think it's on Netflix. Although I'll remind you that I only have so many hours in the day ;-)
Well it's all fairy tales and dreams and Silence... Also, funny. Really, it's one of the cleverest, most experimental & brilliant episodes of the whole show!

Dammit--I was intent on being optimistic *huddles and rocks*
Oh don't mind me. I've got post-traumatic Joss-disorder, and am incapable of getting rid of it. Please continue to be optimistic!

[promethia_tenk]

Sudden realization obvious is retrospect: the resolution to the Leadworth AU fic must involve a story somehow. Probably from Amy . . . *grins*

Ah. Now that is very insightful.
Thank you :-) I just rather wish he'd tried some other modes too. Cause if you're not good at his type of depth, you've got nothing to work with *bangs head on wall* But I've complained about this too much already.

*cries*
Oh, oh, I broke it! *soothes fretfully*

Well it's all fairy tales and dreams and Silence... Also, funny. Really, it's one of the cleverest, most experimental & brilliant episodes of the whole show!
Well, that does sound very appealing.

Oh don't mind me. I've got post-traumatic Joss-disorder, and am incapable of getting rid of it. Please continue to be optimistic!
I just find 'Continuity Errors' so very, very troubling, and moreso the longer I consider it. I shudder to think what Moffat could do if he decided to really go dark--the man knows all my buttons way too well.

[promethia_tenk]

Oh, and:

I've got post-traumatic Joss-disorder,

Lolololol! Thanks, I needed that.

[elisi]

I misremembered slightly - it's Post-Traumatic Joss Syndrome and I only have it very mildly - as a result of watching the show only, and an exposure to usenet a few years ago - since I didn't find fandom until after it had finished. (For which I will be eternally grateful. Follow the link if you want to see some genuine madness... ETA: Stay away from the comments though, since they have a LOT more spoilers than the post itself.)

[elisi]

Sudden realization obvious is retrospect: the resolution to the Leadworth AU fic must involve a story somehow. Probably from Amy . . . *grins*
Of COURSE it must!!!

Thank you :-) I just rather wish he'd tried some other modes too. Cause if you're not good at his type of depth, you've got nothing to work with *bangs head on wall* But I've complained about this too much already.
There, there. *put cool cloth on your poor head*

Oh, oh, I broke it! *soothes fretfully*
I just need some time, since I'm mostly just going to copy something Dorothy Sayers once wrote on the subject. (Not surprisingly, she's brilliant.)

Well, that does sound very appealing.
When you feel like a treat, have a look. :)

I just find 'Continuity Errors' so very, very troubling, and moreso the longer I consider it. I shudder to think what Moffat could do if he decided to really go dark--the man knows all my buttons way too well.
Hmm. OTOH there's a difference between writing a short story and being show runner. That is - when writing for your own pleasure you don't have the freedom you do when you make mass entertainment, so I doubt he'll make the Doctor *that* dark. After all, I'm sure he doesn't want to go down the same route RTD did...