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He was being kind.
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green_maia has a very interesting post here about enjoyment of abuse of power versus abuse of power rooted in despair. This is just me turning thoughts over in my head, so lots of rambling. ETA: Or you can just read my reply to her post, since that's like the whole of this post in two lines...No disagreement on the Buffy front. But I think the Human Nature/Family of Blood is more complicated.
Like Buffy in "The Real Me" - it's not an act of brokenness and despair, it's vindictive cruelty.
I have to disagree with this. I believe the Doctor's actions come from a place of immense pain. I'm not saying that this *justifies* what he does, not at all, but it's logical for the character, esp in S3 when he is constantly hovering on the edge of suicide and flirting with death.
However, I wanted to talk about his mindset. Because we should never forget that he just spent three months as a human, with ordinary human wishes and dream. And he fell in love...
From Father's Day:
The Doctor: I've travelled to all sorts of places. Done things you couldn't even imagine, but... you two... street corner. Two in the morning. Getting a taxi home. I've never had a life like that. Yes. (smiles) I'll try and save you.
John Smith could have a life like that. John Smith wanted a life like that. But John Smith chose death, so others could live, and now the woman that he loved looks at him - because the Doctor is still John Smith, somewhere inside - with anger and accusation and a broken heart. A heart that he broke. He committed suicide, and yet he has to face the consequences of his all his choices, because it's all his fault.
Don't forget that he is in love with Joan. And he loses her as surely as he lost Rose, because he can never be what she wants or needs. Ten is the most human of all the Doctors, and never is that more clear than here: Hell hath no fury like a Timelord scorned. Not quite accurate, but his anger comes from his pain. He allowed himself to love - because he was human - and lost, again. And I don't think the comparison with 'Real Me' is fair, to be honest. The Family were tracking the Doctor. They would never stop. He didn't want to kill them, so he tried to hide. It's a terrible catch-22. (There's no catch-22 in 'Real Me'.)
Should he have killed them outright? I don't think he could. Not without then having to choose another name, because he'd no longer be the Doctor. He choose what he thought would be the kindest option - and it backfired spectacularly, leaving him with a broken heart, and the blood of innocents on his hands. To be honest, if the Master hadn't shown up, I hate to think where he might have ended up. (Somewhere like this, I think. *Incredible* vid!)
Going back to Maia's post again:
When I think about a character going evil, I think of a character who wants something very, very much - and they think that all they have to do to get that thing that they want very, very much is to do something that they know is very, very wrong - and they do that thing that is very, very wrong in order to get what they want so very, very much.
This is not the Doctor in those episodes. He doesn't want to punish the family. He wants John Smith's life. He wants Joan. He wants people not to be dead because of him. But he can't have that. And he's not in a place where he's ready to break the laws of time in order to save what's been lost.
What he has to do is what he always must do - continue, carrying the burden of loss. Only this time he lets the Family share that most painful and horrific of fates. And no, it's not just in any way. But to go back to a point in a different post: It is both an act of brokenness and despair - and it is vindictive cruelty and power abuse.
The best comparison would be his behaviour in 'The Runaway Bride':
The Doctor: I warned you. You did this.
Rachnoss Empress: No! No! Don't! No! My children!
~~~
Donna: That place was flooding and burning and they were dying and you were stood there like... I don't know... a stranger.
The only difference being that the Rachnoss in many ways bore the brunt of his initial pain of losing Rose, whereas the Family were more directly responsible for him losing Joan.
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*nods* Ten is complicated. It's all mixed up, always 'and' rather than 'either/or'.
And it is just; not in a modern, humanitarian sense, but in an archaic 'an eye for an eye' way. It's the kind of punishment that is common in myths and fairytales. FoB always struck me as the episode where the ancient, non-human part of the Doctor's personality comes out most clearly. 'Evil' doesn't seem an adequate word.
I'm not sure I completely agree with her statement that the Doctor never wanted unlimited power either, at least not as far as Ten is concerned. Usually he is very aware of the consequences, of what happens to someone like the Master who wants to control everything, and wise enough and careful enough to not want that. But look at School Reunion; and he immediately wanted it in WoM once he'd finally convinced himself he could have it. She's absolutely right, it was compassion and being pushed beyond the limits of his endurance that caused his actions in WoM. But the results are nevertheless immediately chilling and distinctly unpleasant. You suffer with him while he tries to save them, but you also share Adelaide's outrage. Again, complicated. (And a brilliant episode.)
(Sorry for spamming your journal, but
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ETA: OK, am back.
*nods* Ten is complicated. It's all mixed up, always 'and' rather than 'either/or'.
I think this ties in with his humanity (and how Rusty writes him) - nothing is ever simple.
And it is just; not in a modern, humanitarian sense, but in an archaic 'an eye for an eye' way. It's the kind of punishment that is common in myths and fairytales. FoB always struck me as the episode where the ancient, non-human part of the Doctor's personality comes out most clearly. 'Evil' doesn't seem an adequate word.
Ooooh this. Like I wrote here: 'I think that when looking at the-Doctor-as-God it is a very old idea of Godhood we have to grapple with. The Doctor is like one of the deities from Mount Olympus, coming down ‘disguised as a human’ but with an outlook and agenda that is utterly his own.' His motivation might be informed by his humanity, but his general outlook is very Other. The Lonely God is a good moniker, but he's not *the* God, just *a* God, if that makes sense... (I'm flashing back to Rassilon now, telling humankind to kneel.) The Doctor - usually - chooses a different way, but he has the potential, the *right*. Going onto the topic of power, then the Master *is* his dark mirror - the Master is what he could become, and WoM shows the first step down that slipperly slope.
Mmmm, crunchy meta. :)
And you are ALWAYS welcome to spam my journal. :) Although I think you and Maia would probably get on well - she's fascinated by Rusty's Who, but doesn't care much for Moffat's...
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Absolutely.
Going onto the topic of power, then the Master *is* his dark mirror - the Master is what he could become, and WoM shows the first step down that slipperly slope.
In EoT, when Ten says to the Master, 'I wonder what I'd be, without you', for the longest time I didn't really understand what he meant by that. (Slashy subtext aside, obviously.) He needs someone to show him what not to be.
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*nods a lot* I think the point is continued in this part:
Wilf: [offering gun again]: Then kill him first.
Doctor [raising eyebrows]: And that’s how the Master started.
I think Ten, in particular, is painfully aware (especially post WoM) how easy it would be to become the Master. (Have you read Things You Don't Want in the Night, btw? Truly excellent!)
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FoB always struck me as the episode where the ancient, non-human part of the Doctor's personality comes out most clearly. 'Evil' doesn't seem an adequate word.
It's interesting that this non-human part of him is so prominent immediately after spending three months as a human. I'm not quite sure how to interpret it.
Does some part of him feel weak and helpless after being a human, and want to assert just what he, a Time Lord, is capable of?
Does he feel that his compassionate retreat into humanity failed, and that the real solution is a godlike lack of mercy?
Or - OR - is it rather that the doctor *is* being human, terribly human - he's still caught up in the humanity of John Smith and the loss of Joan - and the vengeance he wreaks is his human personality coming to the fore, only with the means of a Time Lord behind it?
*
I find the question of John Smith very interesting. How similar is he to 10? How does it compare to a regeneration? How is 10 remembering John Smith different than 10 remembering 9 or 11 remembering 10?
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Although on the other hand... The life he chose for himself was that of a school teacher. Maybe the idea for the punishment, giving them what they wanted, only not in the way they wanted it, came from the mythology John Smith would have been very familiar with.
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Oh you're good. That's pretty twisted logic- but definitely sound.
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I think you're definitely onto something there. (I don't really have anything to add to what
I find the question of John Smith very interesting. How similar is he to 10? How does it compare to a regeneration? How is 10 remembering John Smith different than 10 remembering 9 or 11 remembering 10?
*jawdrop* OMG you just made me realise something! Everyone - well most people - are very cross about Ten's speech in EoT about how when he dies everything he is dies and a different man walks away. What if this came from his experiences of being John Smith? Because as John Smith he really *did* die, and someone else walked away... And he was obviously traumatised. Ooooh, this is brilliant! *claps* Thank you! :D
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Wow, I never thought of that. Brilliant. When the Doctor regenerates, the old Doctor experiences death, but the new Doctor deals with this experience. It's sort of linear. But Ten and John Smith... that's more like a Russian doll, he goes back to being himself, but the experience of death, of a life suddenly stopping, of all the possibilities lost, that's all still within him, it's not something he can look at from the perspective of an entirely new person. Does this make sense at all?
That scene with Wilf in the cafe is one of my favourite New Who moments, I'll never understand how people can dislike it.
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*beams* I'm going to write a post, since I want it 'on its own' as it were, rather than buried in comments.
But Ten and John Smith... that's more like a Russian doll, he goes back to being himself, but the experience of death, of a life suddenly stopping, of all the possibilities lost, that's all still within him, it's not something he can look at from the perspective of an entirely new person. Does this make sense at all?
Hmmm, Russian doll. *ponders* Maybe regeneration is more like a Russian doll? In that he's someone new, but with all the other dolls inside. But I'm not sure what to compare the John Smith experience to then. Anyway, you're definitely onto something. With regeneration there's a continuity, a building on what came before, where John Smith led to a reset, as it were. John Smith's life didn't lead to Ten, he just stopped. And... I think this must have been a very alien experience for the Doctor (and makes one wonder how TenToo copes).
That scene with Wilf in the cafe is one of my favourite New Who moments, I'll never understand how people can dislike it.
I think most people love the scene in general - they just dislike the way Ten talks about his death, as if it's something much more final than the show generally portrays.
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P.S. OMG I'm listening to "Running Up That Hill" right now too.
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Well I was building on what came before, so it wasn't a big stretch.
P.S. OMG I'm listening to "Running Up That Hill" right now too.
Oooooh, adore that song. And watch the vid I linked to. Will give you shivers!
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::nods::
I love Human Nature/FoB. One of my favorites from that season. So much to ponder!
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There really is!
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Not that that's really a chore--I quite like these ones.
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Really? Well that pleases me very much. Although Leadworth-AU!Doctor is impossibly different from John Smith... Hmmm. *ponders*
Not that that's really a chore--I quite like these ones.
I still remember watching S3 originally and at the halfway mark getting rather worried since most of the episodes had been rather... not good. And then THESE episodes showed up and I flailied. :)
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Indeed. And if I were simply writing happy fluffy drabbles, I'd just let that stand. But for the story proper, I'm thinking, I really need to give this a closer look. The whole thing is being driven by Amy, it's true, but I'm looking for an internally-consistent, emotionally satisfying resolution on all sides, and when it comes to the Doctor, there are a lot of ways in which this is a revisiting of the HN/FOB situation with different events driving it. I think I probably need to do some work pinning down exactly how my story is different and why.
I may have to shake you down for meta at some point . . .
I still remember watching S3 originally and at the halfway mark getting rather worried since most of the episodes had been rather... not good. And then THESE episodes showed up and I flailied. :)
It probably has the most inconsistent quality of any season, doesn't it? Although on average, I think it fares pretty well.
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You know where to find me... (Also, I'm finding your thoughts v. v. interesting. Looking forward to any thoughts you might like to share.)
It probably has the most inconsistent quality of any season, doesn't it? Although on average, I think it fares pretty well.
Yup, a lot of keepers there, you just need to overlook the less-good aspects. Although thematically it holds together beautifully, so I love it just for that. :)
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You know where to find me...
Thanks.
(Also, I'm finding your thoughts v. v. interesting. Looking forward to any thoughts you might like to share.)
Well, here's why I'm out of my depth in most discussions about Ten. I do agree with the distinctions you and green_maia have drawn--they make sense, I see why you'd want to make them. And yet ultimately I place such a different emphasis on the relative importance of these factors as to render the distinctions practically meaningless. To quote the Doctor at himself: "You did it: that's what matters." Power--all power, any power--will sooner or later be misused, and why is of secondary importance. Maybe it will be maliciously, or selfishly, or negligently, or by accident, or just as a matter of standard operating procedure, or maybe with the best of all possible intentions . . . but ultimately that doesn't matter. Motive doesn't matter, right doesn't matter, authority doesn't matter, experience doesn't matter, reputation doesn't matter. What matters is what power is used for, and what effect that use has.
But like I said, any power, no matter how perfectly wielded, will sooner or later be misused. Our only defense and hope is that power will always be checked and contained and balanced, and its excesses curbed and compensated for. And Ten, of course, had precious little to check him beyond his own efforts, and was all excess. And here's the thing: a misuse of power born out of despair and a misuse of power born out of rage or hunger for control are both mistakes born out of excess. And a misuse of power born out of unalloyed joy and benevolence would be the same. And I don't have it in me to call one or the other more horrible, or even necessarily more worthy of compassion. Which is not to say that the hows and whys of motive aren't interesting or useful to look at (and are certainly important in trying to avoid the same mistakes in the future), but ultimately . . . What matters is what you do. Sooner or later all power will be misused. And we're looking at an unbalanced system.
And not having been around for any of this, I have no idea how prevalent a perspective that is in discussions, but it does have the tendency to flatten out all the nuance of RTD's Who and to leave it very cartoon-ish. And sometimes I read a discussion like this and I see it--or I almost see it--and then I walk away and it slips right out of mind. And that's quite the frustrating feeling.
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Good, isn't it? *pets it*
Well, here's why I'm out of my depth in most discussions about Ten. I do agree with the distinctions you and green_maia have drawn--they make sense, I see why you'd want to make them.
Personally, I just enjoy analysing stuff on the subatomic level... Plus Maia and I disagree in very curious ways, so discussing things with her is always fascinating. Even though we generally end up just leaving it, since a lot of her reasonings come from emotional responses, and you can't argue with that. *g*
And not having been around for any of this, I have no idea how prevalent a perspective that is in discussions, but it does have the tendency to flatten out all the nuance of RTD's Who and to leave it very cartoon-ish. And sometimes I read a discussion like this and I see it--or I almost see it--and then I walk away and it slips right out of mind. And that's quite the frustrating feeling.
I think the main argument is that Ten is someone who, right from the start, misused his power. A lot of people were very angry with him for causing Harriet Jones' downfall... mostly because it was portrayed as *right*. Thankfully as the show went on we saw more and more of how this tendency was not 'good', and that Ten wasn't always 'right' (see Handlebars, and the million fans who jumped for joy when The Timelord Victorious turned up). But you're absolutely right - it's the power that's the problem, and the justifications are almost beside the point. Was Harriet Jones right in shooting down the Sycorax? It's a question that doesn't have an answer. (Ten destroying Britain's Golden Age because she pissed him off is certainly wrong though.) But going back to the former point, that is what RTD does best of all - creating situations where there is no right answer, where doing nothing is as fatal as doing something. (Children of Earth is this whole point writ large. Can someone be a hero *and* truly monstrous? It's that whole humanity thing again).
I... have no idea what I'm saying anymore. *walks away to get dressed*
ETA: Re. the Sycorax question, then it's almost the same situation as in the Family of Blood episodes, where Ten's choice does indeed lead to the deaths of innocents, rather then the preemptive deaths of the villains. I think the distinction between Ten and Eleven is that they would both make the same choice (because the Doctor is the Doctor is the Doctor), but Ten has a need to enforce his own moral code that Eleven thankfully doesn't (see River, with her different outlook).
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Would have been cursing at the screen except that I couldn't believe what I was seeing . . .
Thankfully as the show went on we saw more and more of how this tendency was not 'good', and that Ten wasn't always 'right'
I just wish that had happened a little more consistently. It strikes me as a show situated somewhat awkwardly in between that preachy, fairy-tale morality structure and that gritty, impossible decisions, no one is right realism--and the disconnect often just ended up feeling . . . hypocritical. And of course Ten felt hypocritical, and that's interesting and fine and worth exploring, but when the show itself felt hypocritical too . . . *grrrr* But then the show was so very dominated by Ten's tunnel vision, there was almost no avoiding that, I don't think.
But going back to the former point, that is what RTD does best of all - creating situations where there is no right answer, where doing nothing is as fatal as doing something.
Oh, yes, those are quite brilliant, I agree.
I... have no idea what I'm saying anymore. *walks away to get dressed*
Genuine lol! It's ok. There was sense in there, I think ;-)
I think the distinction between Ten and Eleven is that they would both make the same choice (because the Doctor is the Doctor is the Doctor), but Ten has a need to enforce his own moral code that Eleven thankfully doesn't (see River, with her different outlook).
And my response to that is . . . my fic! Ahhhh, that feels good.
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Yet another reason 'Handlebars' became so popular ('I can make anyone go to prison, just because I don't like them...' The italics bit being Harriet's downfall. I... might have watched it way too often and know it by heart. *cough*)
And of course Ten felt hypocritical, and that's interesting and fine and worth exploring, but when the show itself felt hypocritical too . . . *grrrr* But then the show was so very dominated by Ten's tunnel vision, there was almost no avoiding that, I don't think.
*nods* Which is why Tochwood is generally far better suited to RTD's writing. Everything and everyone is morally compromised, and decisions are never simple or 'right'. (As
Genuine lol! It's ok. There was sense in there, I think ;-)
Thank you! ;)
And my response to that is . . . my fic! Ahhhh, that feels good.
I have a feeling I shall do the same. A lot. That fic really is perfection. :)
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I actually popped by here to thank you for the lovely things you said about my vid! I'm flattered you liked it enough to post a link on your journal, and all the more so when I saw the quality of comments. Thankyou very much! :D
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Isn't it just? This is one of the reasons I love meta so much - one thought leads to another and everyone brings something to the table. :)
I like all the points you guys have put in here; the ending of those eps really threw me at the time, and its great to read such articulate thoughts on the subject!
Oh thank you - although I think that the commenters did more than me.
I certainly agree on 10 being the most human of the doctors and I would argue the most emotionally complicated as well. Yes, 9 had problems, but they were fairly straightforward and out in the air. 10 is more unpredictable and it is so interesting to discuss the reasons behind his actions!
*nods a lot* I think it ties in with Ten being the protagonist/hero - the story revolves around him (as opposed to Eleven who's back to the traditional Doctor-y role of being the enabler/wizard character, something which is also lovely). Anyway, it allowed Ten to be incredibly complex, and for RTD to explore all kinds of interesting things.
Or so I try and tell my friends :D
They should listen!!!
I actually popped by here to thank you for the lovely things you said about my vid! I'm flattered you liked it enough to post a link on your journal, and all the more so when I saw the quality of comments. Thankyou very much! :D
Oh TOTALLY my pleasure - I wrote the whole post in one go, and needed to illustrate a point when your vid popped into my head and I was very happy, because it worked perfectly! Of course the story it tells is different, but it covers the same journey into darkness. I absolutely love it when I can just point to something and say 'This is what I mean', rather than have to elaborate in great detail. So thank you! :)