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Thoughts on Joss and why Buffy is special.
One reason I love BtVS so much is that Buffy gets a happy ending. She wins. I've not seen Dollhouse, but on his other shows winning doesn't enter into it. Angel will be forever fighting. Mal only wishes to keep flying.
But Buffy wins. And there's something else I've realised too. Putting it under a cut, so as not to take up all your flist.
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shadowkat67 posted some Joss quotes re. Dollhouse that crystallised some things for me:
I never concieved of a more pure journey from helplessness to power, which is what I always write about, and in that sense, I feel we accomplished a lot of it. I do feel that part of what we tried to get at kind of got taken out at the beginning and it really was more important to how the show would work than I even realized when they took it out- which was sex. The show was supposed to be, on some level, a celebration of perversion, as something that makes us unique. Sort of our hidden selves. You can talk about your hidden selves and identity, but when you have to shoot each other every week, you get a bit limited. The show was supposed to flop genres every episode, and the moment we did that, they shut us down and said, 'Quickly, have someone shoot at someone.' I feel when we had to take sex out of the equation, it became kind of a joke or almost unsettling. Because we couldn't hit it head on - and so much of our identity is wrapped up in our sexuality, and this is something Eliza (Dusku) was talking to me about, as something she wanted to examine before I even came up with the idea, and to have that sort of excised and marginalized and santised and not to be able to hit on the head what they were doing made the show a little bit limited and a little bit creepy at times, I think we still did some fairly out-there stuff, and I'm proud of what we did, given the circumstances, but with those circumstances, it was never really going to happen the way it should have.
People say that rape is one of Joss' staples, and that's true, but that's probably because rape encompasses what makes him tick: power and powerlessness and sex. These are his leitmotifs throughout.
And what I love about Buffy is that she is most of the time above it. Sure, we find out that the original Slayer-power came from a very rape-like empowering of a helpless girl, but Buffy never experiences her power as anything other than innate and hers. The burden of it is to do with her loneliness, not with the power itself. (Which is why I love Chosen so much, because by sharing her power, she removes the last obstacle in her way to freedom.)
See River for a different take - River is very powerful, but the cost is immense, and she is very fragile mentally because of it, and needs a lot of care and looking after. Buffy on the other hand is always the one in control, the one who looks after others. Even in 'Helpless', bereft of her powers, Buffy does not go seek help - not from Giles, nor from Angel. She goes by herself, with nothing but her wits and her self belief, and she saves the day.
So yes, I love Chosen. I love that she triumphs and that her life is her own, without any compromises.
But what about the comics? Ah now. This is where it gets interesting, because suddenly they make sense! We have the extreme powerlessness, followed by the extreme powerfullness, followed by sex... You can see all the key ingredients of any Joss work, but bluntly wielded and rammed in sideways, the characters grotesquely bent out of shape to fit the paradigms in question. (Much like the way the giant bug fits inside the human farmer in Men in Black.) This story was never Buffy's - she was the one that got away, the one who was her power, and owned it.
From the shooting script for Chosen:
BUFFY
I want you... to get out of my face.
The First looks suddenly worried.
SLO MO: Buffy rises. Sweaty, bloodied, hair in her face, but nothing but resolve in her eyes. The First is nowhere in sight as she takes a step forward, two, stumbling, hunched steps...
Rona sees her and throws her the scythe. Buffy catches it. Stands a little straighter.
And SCREAMS, and swings the back of the axe like it's a bat, knocking five vamps back and over the edge in one blow. Sauron himself would be, like, "dude..."
As always, vids influenced my thinking and illustrate what I want to say:
Bachelorette byobsessive24 is Buffy, ultimately winning. (In the shape of a girl.)
And My Medea byyunitsa shows the flipside. (Mostly Dollhouse/Firefly.) I can't remember if I've rec'd it before, but if not - make sure you watch! (So come to me my love/I'll tap into your strength and drain it dry)
ETA: I think my point is - Buffy is never the victim. This is one reason the AR is so uncomfortable - it tries to jam her into that box, and she doesn't fit. Even her death at The Master's hand comes about through her own choice and bravery.
One problem with s8 (possibly the biggest one) is that she accepts the victim role (letting go of her powers, becoming passive rather than fighting, no matter how hopeless), and when she regains her strength (with added superpowers) it is not through her own agency (or the love of friends/family), but as a consequence of Twilight-related-nonsense. She becomes just another woman willing to bend whichever way she needs because of male power, and then altered without consent.
But Buffy wins. And there's something else I've realised too. Putting it under a cut, so as not to take up all your flist.
shadowkat67 posted some Joss quotes re. Dollhouse that crystallised some things for me:I never concieved of a more pure journey from helplessness to power, which is what I always write about, and in that sense, I feel we accomplished a lot of it. I do feel that part of what we tried to get at kind of got taken out at the beginning and it really was more important to how the show would work than I even realized when they took it out- which was sex. The show was supposed to be, on some level, a celebration of perversion, as something that makes us unique. Sort of our hidden selves. You can talk about your hidden selves and identity, but when you have to shoot each other every week, you get a bit limited. The show was supposed to flop genres every episode, and the moment we did that, they shut us down and said, 'Quickly, have someone shoot at someone.' I feel when we had to take sex out of the equation, it became kind of a joke or almost unsettling. Because we couldn't hit it head on - and so much of our identity is wrapped up in our sexuality, and this is something Eliza (Dusku) was talking to me about, as something she wanted to examine before I even came up with the idea, and to have that sort of excised and marginalized and santised and not to be able to hit on the head what they were doing made the show a little bit limited and a little bit creepy at times, I think we still did some fairly out-there stuff, and I'm proud of what we did, given the circumstances, but with those circumstances, it was never really going to happen the way it should have.
People say that rape is one of Joss' staples, and that's true, but that's probably because rape encompasses what makes him tick: power and powerlessness and sex. These are his leitmotifs throughout.
And what I love about Buffy is that she is most of the time above it. Sure, we find out that the original Slayer-power came from a very rape-like empowering of a helpless girl, but Buffy never experiences her power as anything other than innate and hers. The burden of it is to do with her loneliness, not with the power itself. (Which is why I love Chosen so much, because by sharing her power, she removes the last obstacle in her way to freedom.)
See River for a different take - River is very powerful, but the cost is immense, and she is very fragile mentally because of it, and needs a lot of care and looking after. Buffy on the other hand is always the one in control, the one who looks after others. Even in 'Helpless', bereft of her powers, Buffy does not go seek help - not from Giles, nor from Angel. She goes by herself, with nothing but her wits and her self belief, and she saves the day.
So yes, I love Chosen. I love that she triumphs and that her life is her own, without any compromises.
But what about the comics? Ah now. This is where it gets interesting, because suddenly they make sense! We have the extreme powerlessness, followed by the extreme powerfullness, followed by sex... You can see all the key ingredients of any Joss work, but bluntly wielded and rammed in sideways, the characters grotesquely bent out of shape to fit the paradigms in question. (Much like the way the giant bug fits inside the human farmer in Men in Black.) This story was never Buffy's - she was the one that got away, the one who was her power, and owned it.
From the shooting script for Chosen:
I want you... to get out of my face.
The First looks suddenly worried.
SLO MO: Buffy rises. Sweaty, bloodied, hair in her face, but nothing but resolve in her eyes. The First is nowhere in sight as she takes a step forward, two, stumbling, hunched steps...
Rona sees her and throws her the scythe. Buffy catches it. Stands a little straighter.
And SCREAMS, and swings the back of the axe like it's a bat, knocking five vamps back and over the edge in one blow. Sauron himself would be, like, "dude..."
As always, vids influenced my thinking and illustrate what I want to say:
Bachelorette by
obsessive24 is Buffy, ultimately winning. (In the shape of a girl.)And My Medea by
yunitsa shows the flipside. (Mostly Dollhouse/Firefly.) I can't remember if I've rec'd it before, but if not - make sure you watch! (So come to me my love/I'll tap into your strength and drain it dry)ETA: I think my point is - Buffy is never the victim. This is one reason the AR is so uncomfortable - it tries to jam her into that box, and she doesn't fit. Even her death at The Master's hand comes about through her own choice and bravery.
One problem with s8 (possibly the biggest one) is that she accepts the victim role (letting go of her powers, becoming passive rather than fighting, no matter how hopeless), and when she regains her strength (with added superpowers) it is not through her own agency (or the love of friends/family), but as a consequence of Twilight-related-nonsense. She becomes just another woman willing to bend whichever way she needs because of male power, and then altered without consent.
no subject
Thank you. :)
This actually isn't the case, imo. Buffy gains her superpowers from her rage when she calls forth the Goddesses to battle in "Retreat". Her rage is the key.
I'm afraid I shall have to disagree. Not with the 'emotions are power' bit, because that I love. But Buffy's feelings have never made her able to fly before. Every other battle where she's brought low, she jumps back up with renewed strength, but it's innate strength. Sometimes a little boosted (like after being revived from The Master drowning her), but never anything out of the ordinary for the rules of the 'verse, and the change always comes *from* her, and is driven *by* her. Here - she gets superpowers dropped in her lap without even knowing why. When she's told that she's drawing on dead Slayers' power this seems horribly plausible to her. Twangel has to explain things to her, and even so it was all apparently destined and she had no choice. It's... the opposite of 'Prophecy Girl' where she, out of choice, went along with the prophecy and then subverted it. Here she (unknowingly) was forced and manipulated and glowhypnoled through a prophecy (that she never had a choice about anyway or so we're told), and is now scrambling to pick herself up.
Also see my reply to
no subject
And the Twilight prophecy talks about how her being a prominent figure who changes that status quo that signals she's the one.
Her agency has never equated to supernatural strength. If you're talking about innate strength outside her Slayer strength, then of course yes that's her agency, her willpower, etc.
But supernatural strength? It's never been something she can will into existence. It's something she can hone.
And I hear you about not wanting to argue. I just wanted to vocalize my side of it. I'm happy to agree to disagree.
[eta] I wrote this when I just woke up so I was kinda missing where we were talking past each other (probably also known as my not hearing properly).
no subject
no subject
Those powers come from rage and despair and demoralization. That's why they're The Monkey's Paw powers. This is about the bad type of empowerment and explicitly how it's not something Buffy chooses, but it's something that's done to her.
It begins with her changing the status quo. Then Twilight seizes advantage, the very same way the First seized advantage: by gathering minions to work its will. Its will was to "push" Buffy to the edge where the powers would come to her. Taking her agency--her choices, her emotions ("my emotions give me strength")--and using them against her.
When I say it's in part her agency, I mean that it comes from within her, and she has control over how she reacts above all (we control our emotions--for good or ill that's our responsibility and our dominion). But there's also interference. And that strikes at the thematic heart of the story.
I'm not going to pretend that's not upsetting. And yes, it is about victimization, both manipulated and self-willed (self-willed like how in "The Gift" she's both saving the world and giving in to her death wish i.e. committing suicide). But I think it's too quick to say Buffy never played the victim--because that behavior is a part of her depression arc. She wanted to be punished, to be hurt, to be abused, even as she wanted to punish and hurt and abuse. So I disagree there.
Is this upsetting? Dear god yes. And that's really the point, I think. Like I've said before, this is about Buffy's weaknesses leading to her undoing--a supernatural evil taking advantage of those weaknesses and using them against her for its own gain. It's about poking those weaknesses.
I think we can debate degree and whether the comics went too far with her, but I don't agree that Buffy's never willingly played the victim in a self-destructive bent. She's not above that. She's not superstrong of mind and heart in that she's invulnerable. She's superstrong of mind and heart in that she keeps on trying despite getting kicked down. And sometimes, she's the one kicking herself down (like how she pulls away from connection with her loved ones when she needs to be reaching out).
Like I said, I'm not going to pretend this isn't upsetting. It's about a hero falling. It's about her weaknesses leading to her doing questionable things. Also, I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say I'm probably one of the most upset by this (this entry is set to my eyes only but I'll open it if you wanted to read it). In that entry I wrote to Scott Allie saying,
"I feel like I'm watching my hero die here (not Buffy the character, but Buffy the hero). And it's not because of a relationship — in the end, I could care less. I care about Buffy's character. Her being a feminist icon. And I understand the darkness and irony of the scene, of the issues. And I've just gotta believe that Joss is intentionally making this a feminist nightmare. That he's tearing Buffy down the way he did in Season 6 and will lift her back up again. Because I don't want a Buffy turned into the Little Woman who accepts her Man must lie to her, deceive and manipulate her because she can't handle the truth, because it's too hard for her and she can't make tough choices.
You know, for all the times I've felt my heart wrenched because of a Joss show (Fred's soul being destroyed forever, Buffy dying in The Gift), I didn't realize there was still something so precious to endanger. But Buffy's role as a feminist icon? I somehow thought that was sacrosanct.
And really, I'm getting tired of reading interviews explaining how great this is. Twist the knife harder, guys. Please. There goes my hero..."
no subject
but I don't agree that Buffy's never willingly played the victim in a self-destructive bent. She's not above that. She's not superstrong of mind and heart in that she's invulnerable.
Oh she can play the victim, absolutely. But that's something else - she is the one putting herself in that role, knowing that she can snap out again. (Oh, S6 and all the games she played with Spike - was the his victim, or he hers? She let him be the bad guy, but who was in control?) And as I said, it ended with the AR - where she was forced into the victim box - and I think it confused her a lot. She fought against it, of course, but it was like body swapping - she didn't understand what was happening. (OH look at me ramble, sorry. Am thinking as I write. I shall stop now.)
Like I've said before, this is about Buffy's weaknesses leading to her undoing--a supernatural evil taking advantage of those weaknesses and using them against her for its own gain. It's about poking those weaknesses.
In theory I approve of this. Heck, I love S7 which is all about exploiting inherent weaknesses. My problem with s8 is that we don't see Buffy's path. We jump straight from the happiness of Chosen to a world where she is secluded and removed from the world ('I walk, I talk, I shop, I sneeze'), where she is robbing banks (this is the girl who worked at the DoubleMeat Palace to pay the bills) and where she has turned her Slayers into a quasi-military operation a la The Initiative ('It's OK, I've patrolled in this halter often!'). We still don't know why. It's like skipping from 'Something Blue' and straight to 'Smashed' without even bothering to tell us that she died. The *problem* with this is that the set-up is what allows Twilight the movement to attack her, but since I don't believe that the really real Buffy would actually do any of these things, I can't accept the consequences. Does that make sense?
Like I said, I'm not going to pretend this isn't upsetting. It's about a hero falling. It's about her weaknesses leading to her doing questionable things. Also, I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say I'm probably one of the most upset by this (this entry is set to my eyes only but I'll open it if you wanted to read it). In that entry I wrote to Scott Allie saying,
I remember the letter, yes, and it echoes a lot of my own thoughts. I hate what they've done to Buffy. But it started when she jumped out of that helicopter, kevlar-clad and gun-shaped gizmo in her hand. Not my Buffy. So, in many respects, 'He jests at scars that never felt a wound' - it hurts me deeply that Buffy's image and name is being misused, but my Buffy was never hurt by it. (Almost the opposite - the more ridiculous s8 becomes, the less like the real Buffy any of it is.) I am very sorry for others who can't make the disconnect (and I know there are many), and I sincerely hope that you will get something back from your investment.
(I hope that makes sense, I have to run now.)