elisi | Meta: Becoming Eleven

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Meta: Becoming Eleven

None of this is new, exactly, but a post by

green_maia (and especially

shipperx's comments) made me think. And my thoughts got a bit long, so I posted them here rather than there. Scattered musings on what makes Eleven Eleven and how he has developed:

ETA: Cross-posted to

metatardis here. Some great comments, this one especially.

1. "Trust me, I'm the Doctor." How often do we hear this? How often has he picked up Companions, and destroyed their trust? Changed them through what they see and experience, until finally they leave/are left behind. What I love about Amy is that this is just the beginning of her story. The Doctor, quite literally, spends the whole season trying to earn back the trust he broke, trying to fix her, make her who she should have been. And, miraculously, he succeeds! Or rather... through his actions he enables her to reclaim what she lost. Which brings me to the next part:

2. Eleven is very paternal/teacherly, as many have noted. But not the kind that tries to impose his own teachings - right from the start he pushes people towards discovering things for themselves. Most prominently (and almost cruelly) in 'Amy's Choice', but it's something that runs through the season. We see it in 'The Pandorica Opens' when he pushes Rory into declaring that Amy is the most important thing to him, thus establishing his humanity; in 'The Lodger' when he gets Sophie to realise that all that's stopping her from realising her dreams is herself; in 'Vampires of Venice' when he takes Amy and Rory 'on a date', helping them bond... And, jumping right back to the start, in 'The Eleventh Hour' when he - quite simply through making the Atraxi answer questions for it/themselves - makes them run away.

3. And finally. At the beginning of the season, I think we are shown how Eleven, step by step, un-learns his bad habits from being Ten. (Bad phrasing, I know. Can anyone think of a better description? I'm not talking about overcoming his traumas, I mean getting rid of the patterns he was stuck in):

First (and most crucially) we have 'The Beast Below' where Eleven behaves very much like Ten: There is a terrible choice to be made and he (automatically) sees himself as the person to shoulder it, the one to carry the pain and the responsibility and guilt... Except Amy intervenes, showing him that a) He can be wrong (dangerously so - and not just in his actions but in his understanding of a situation), b) EVERYTHING isn't his responsibility and c) He is not a Lonely God, or an Avenging Angel - when she looks at him, she sees a kind old man, a man who came and chased away the nightmares when she was young. I honestly don't think the effects of this can be overstated.

After this comes 'Victory of the Daleks', which teaches him something else: It's possible to lose the war, but win the battles - and that's not too shabby. Life goes on even if he is not Victorious.

And then the Angel episodes which bring with them River... River who I love almost as much as a metaphor as a character. 'Water always wins' Ten said, but he still fought - fought so hard and so desperately that it broke him. (See this exquisite essay on 'The Waters of Mars'.) But over the course of these two episodes he learns to trust the water once more - to follow the river wherever it might lead him, to once more believe in fairy tales and happy endings. And he begins to truly live and not just survive.

(All of it leading to Eleven being someone who focusses on other people, rather than himself, culminating in his quiet sacrifice for Amy [and the universe], able to set aside any personal fears so he can reassure a frightened girl.)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I really do love reading peoples thoughts and analysis's on episodes/series/characters because it gives greater insight to them. As such, I always look forward to your meta posts. This one was a very pleasant surprise since as of late Eleven's character and why the way he is, especially in relation to Ten, has intrigued me.

To be honest I never really thought about how Eleven acted like Ten in the Beast Below (I should really get to watching the episode again) so thanks for that. And I never get tired of hearing of how parental/metor-like Eleven is.

Random thought, but the ending paragraph on how Eleven is more "go with the flow" in contrast to Ten, who stubbornly hung on until he couldn't anymore, reminded me of a quote from an anime I watched awhile ago: "Those who accept their fate find happiness, those who defy their fate find glory". Whether or not you find this relevant to the Doctor depends on your views, but it certainly made me think of how Eleven, who resignedly walked through the crack into oblivion without hesitation, ended up being the one who got a happy ending.... at least for now.

You just connected Princess Tutu to Doctor Who. This is the *best comment ever*.

..... Holy CRAP, right when I read your comment I realized that Princess Tutu can, in some ways be VERY relevant to Doctor Who... ESPECIALLY if you connect it to Series 5, what with all the fairy tale themes floating around in it; because what is Princess Tutu other than a story about a living fairy tale?

I really do love reading peoples thoughts and analysis's on episodes/series/characters because it gives greater insight to them.
Same here. This post was inspired by the comments in this one. :)

This one was a very pleasant surprise since as of late Eleven's character and why the way he is, especially in relation to Ten, has intrigued me.
Character exploration & development is probably my favourite thing of all, so there might be more when I have time...

To be honest I never really thought about how Eleven acted like Ten in the Beast Below (I should really get to watching the episode again) so thanks for that.
It's a very interesting situation, because his behaviour is very Eleven-y, but the mindset is Ten. Took me a whole to figure that out. (And this is why it's such a character-altering moment. Eleven doesn't have a 'I'm that sort of a man' line, like Ten did, and then to have Amy tell him who he is - that's huge. ♥)

"Those who accept their fate find happiness, those who defy their fate find glory"
Oh that is *perfect*. Yes. Thank you so much! :)

It struck me at the time and again during these conversations that The Doctor is the whale in the new Britain ship -- very old and very kind and cannot stand to see children cry.

*nods*

And thank you for all your wonderful comments over there - I quite literally had to write all this down because it wouldn't stop going round in my head.

I would flail like a happy, flaily thing if you were to post this to

metatardis. Just saying. :)

Eleven is very paternal/teacherly, as many have noted. But not the kind that tries to impose his own teachings - right from the start he pushes people towards discovering things for themselves.

That is such a Seven thing to do, by the way. One of the hallmarks of the Seven/Ace relationship was that he very rarely just told her stuff - he'd ask her questions and make her figure it out herself. I love that Eleven/Amy has that too.

After this comes 'Victory of the Daleks', which teaches him something else: It's possible to lose the war, but win the battles - and that's not too shabby. Life goes on even if he is not Victorious.

That's an excellent point that I'd completely missed.

I would flail like a happy, flaily thing if you were to post this to [info]metatardis. Just saying. :)
Can do! :) (I've been meaning to join, but life... *waves hands around in Eleven-y fashion*)

That is such a Seven thing to do, by the way. One of the hallmarks of the Seven/Ace relationship was that he very rarely just told her stuff - he'd ask her questions and make her figure it out herself.
One day I'll get round to watching Seven (and Ace) - everyone who loves them always goes 'OMG THEY'RE AWESOME' and they sound very much like the sort of dynamic I'd love.

That's an excellent point that I'd completely missed.
I can't remember when I first thought of it, but it struck me that Ten win the wars, but loses the battles... Doomsday: Saves the world, loses Rose. LotT: Saves the world, loses the Master & Martha leaves. Journey's End: Saves the world, loses Rose again, and Donna. He fights these huge battles, and emerges as the victor, his enemies destroyed - only to have to face a personal tragedy. And Victory of the Daleks turns this on its head, and I love watching the way he can't grasp the fact that they got away. This never happens (apart from Dalek Sek in Manhattan, but I'm not counting that), and learning to accept this is *hugely* helpful!

Ah, yes, the fun that is Real Life. :P Well, there's no rush - I'm just very keen to see my lovely little comm getting a bit more use, that's all. :)

You know, I can't think of anyone I know who doesn't love Seven'n'Ace? :D

To add to your examples - Planet of the Dead: wins, loses potential companion. Waters of Mars: thinks he wins by breaking the Laws of Time, and then Adelaide kills herself anyway to balance things back out. End of Time: I guess he wins at the end, but he also ends up losing so much. On reflection, S5 really has been such a huge reveral of a lot of Ten's tropes, and this is a really good example.

Ah, yes, the fun that is Real Life. :P Well, there's no rush - I'm just very keen to see my lovely little comm getting a bit more use, that's all. :)
I'll get there later today, don't worry. :)

You know, I can't think of anyone I know who doesn't love Seven'n'Ace? :D
Heeee!

On reflection, S5 really has been such a huge reveral of a lot of Ten's tropes, and this is a really good example.
Thank you. (Although I feel the need to point out that in Planet of the Dead he could have saved the day and got a brilliant new Companion, except he's too emo... *pets poor Ten* Oh! Voyage of the Damned. There's another one! And The Next Doctor (-ish. Jackson Lake is sorta in the same category as Lady Christina.)

How often has he picked up Companions, and destroyed their trust?

Not very often, really. It is something they seem to harp on about quite a lot in New Who (going so far as bend past character's stories to fit the maxim, like with Sarah). It happens, but it's more the exception rather then the rule.

"Trust me, I'm the Doctor."

Feel free to kick me if this is too obscure, but it reminded of a quote of the Eighth Doctor from his first audio adventure "trust me Charley, I haven't a clue what I'm doing" (Charley becomes his companion). And that is why I love him.

Katerina, Sara Kingdom and Adric all died. Tegan's sanity was destroyed. Peri is missing, presumed either dead or married to Brian Blessed. Jamie and Zoe were forcibly mindwiped. Ace's entire arc was about the Doctor destroying her trust and then rebuilding it. And that's only Classic Who companions.

Sure, that's not a majority, but it's definitely enough to be a trend.

Peri is missing, presumed either dead or married to Brian Blessed.
... what?

At the end of the Trial of a Time Lord arc, Peri's fate is left deliberately ambiguous - either she died, or she was married to King Yrcanos (played by Brian Blessed). Whether you consider that a curse or a blessing is really up to you. XD

Whether you consider that a curse or a blessing is really up to you. XD
Um...

We have a version of events by the Valeyard and the other comes from the Master. Neither is at all reliable.

Personally, I file Peri's fate under unknown.

That's three companions dead, two taken by external force and two with uncertain fate (including Ace who was fine when we last saw her). Oh and Kamelion. Out of over forty televised companions in the classic series.

Adric and Katarina died by their own decision (Katarina choosing to eject herself into space and Adric choosing to remain on the freighter when the crew left via escape capsule). Sara Kingdom died because she didn't listen to the Doctor. Jamie and Zoe were taken from the Doctor by the Time Lords. And the Doctor himself was abducted by the Time Lords leaving Peri behind. As for Tegan, she left because she was upset and didn't want to do the traveling and fighting aliens thing any more, it was too hard. It wasn't about not trusting the Doctor and though she was traumatised I wouldn't say her sanity was destroyed.

How about the companions whose final fates we don't know? We see a lot of them being dropped off, but we don't see how their lives continue afterwards. I can't imagine Ian and Barbara had a fun time explaining their two year absence, for example. Doesn't travelling with the Doctor always involve a bit of a sacrifice in that respect? You do have to give a little of yourself as the price for travelling in the TARDIS, I think.

Any decision you make has consequences, not all of them good. Ian and Barbara are a special case because they did not choose to travel with the Doctor, but other companions did, sometimes more then once (choosing to travel with him even when they could safely get home like Jo and Sarah). Vicki wanted to remain behind in Troy which was just decimated by war. Life at the time was much harder then what we're used to. If her future life was unhappy, is it the Doctor's fault?

I wouldn't worry too much about Ian and Barbara. They have each other. That helped them through a lot worse then a few awkward explanations.

Oh, I do think Ian and Babs were just fine, eventually. (At least, I hope so.)

Would it be egotistical of me to link to my own fic to demonstrate a point? This was written in someone else's alt!verse. The bit I'm talking about is the Doctor's monologue towards the end, where he talks about not being nice. That is essentially a dark interpretation of how I see the Doctor and what travelling with him ultimately entails.

I haven't read the background to this particular AU, so it's hard to form an objective opinion. This is not how I see the Doctor. Yes, he's not nice, but he is not cruel. I can see what you mean about companions not always seeing the Doctor for who is, but that can happen in any relationship, even when the other person is not an alien. Idealization of the Doctor is very obvious with some companions, but much less so with others, sometimes entirely absent.

It is also a problem of the faster pace of the New series. There is less time for the story to unfold and we are often just told things. In Journey's End Davros accuses the Doctor of turning his companions into soldiers and the accusation is left to stand. Nobody counters with the obvious (to me) idea that they are fighting because their planet was attacked by a bloody great fleet of Daleks. Traveling with the Doctor made them less likely to get slaughtered in the first five minutes. I suppose the thing that bothers me is not the exploration of the darker sides of the Doctor and traveling with him, but the way it is done. Often it is emphasized in unsubtle ways that are there to generate more DRAMA. It doesn't feel organic to the story.

It happens, but it's more the exception rather then the rule.
Good point - I was thinking mostly of New Who (Ten in particular).

"trust me Charley, I haven't a clue what I'm doing"
*dies laughing* Oh that's brilliant! And yes, that's why I love him too! :)

*grabs opportunity to pimp Eighth Doctor*

The Eighth Doctor is really fun to travel with. He was only in the TV movie, but as it was during the wilderness years loads of Expanded Universe material has developed. The Eighth Doctor and Lucie audios are a good entry point for people used to New Who pacing. I will now go away.

Also,I love your icon.

*grabs opportunity to pimp Eighth Doctor*
Oh I love it when people pimp stuff and one day I will get round to 'Old Who', promise. But at the moment I can barely keep up with what the New show... *wishes for more time*

I will now go away.
Oh don't do that. I love talking to people! :)

And the icon is by

jkpolk who is pretty awesome. Really, check out her stuff! :)

Some interesting thoughts here.

Eleven is very paternal/teacherly, as many have noted. But not the kind that tries to impose his own teachings - right from the start he pushes people towards discovering things for themselves.
I assume you've read all of

goldenmoonrose's exceptional episode reviews on this topic? I mean, she posted them in all the usual haunts, but just in case.

About Eleven pushing others. I'm not sure how well it fits with the examples you've quoted here, but it jumped into my head as I was reading. One of the most interesting things about "The Hungry Earth"/"Cold Blood" to me was the Doctor's interactions with Ambrose. I mean, she was a frustrating and flawed person, whom I personally found deeply realistic, and the Doctor perhaps had unrealistic expectations of her. She acts wrongly, of course, and the Doctor takes out a lot of his frustrations on her, but what makes the whole relationship for me is their final scene together: how much is said in that tiny little understated scene? While neither forgiving her nor making excuses for her, the Doctor speaks to her as another who has failed, over and over, to be the best of his kind. What do you do about it? Well, you go on, and you try to help others be what you could not. There was a good deal of humility in that scene, and while it wasn't quite an apology for the way he'd acted, it was a beautiful example of understanding and leading through example. It's one of my favorite moments showcasing Eleven's self-awareness.

I think we are shown how Eleven, step by step, un-learns his bad habits from being Ten.
That is an excellent point, and I have nothing to add.

After this comes 'Victory of the Daleks', which teaches him something else: It's possible to lose the war, but win the battles - and that's not too shabby.
Another important lesson that came out of that I think--which echoes what went on with the starwhale--is that it's possible to make a situation worse by forcing our own interpretation on it (I'm not sure if I'm saying that how I want to). Basically, he forced himself into a false choice with the starwhale and could have ruined everything. With the Daleks, what really brought about their victory and resurrection was the Doctor insisting that they must be evil. Had he not had his ranting hissyfit in which he had to lay down the lines of identity--"I am the Doctor, and you are the Daleks"--nothing would have come of the whole venture. Which is a strange inverse echo of his claim that he'll have to find a new name after lobotomizing the starwhale.

And, damn, I just realized that at the beginning of this season, he really is determined to make everything miserable, isn't he? Like the way he tried to get Bracewell to remember sad things to make him feel human. Talk about bad mental habits inherited from Ten. Contrast that with "life is a pile of good things and bad things" Doctor from later in the season. I wonder if we could pinpoint a turning point. Could it be during ToA/FaS? He's certainly never that angry again after those episodes, and it's also the point at which he decides he needs to fix Amy.

But over the course of these two episodes he learns to trust the water once more - to follow the river wherever it might lead him, to once more believe in fairy tales and happy endings. And he begins to truly live and not just survive.
The longer I think about the ending of "Flesh and Stone," the more I love it because the solution to those episodes was so entirely the opposite of imposing his will on the situation. In fact, he goes through the whole episode trying to impose his will on the situation and just gets things more and more screwed up as he becomes more and more tense. Then River saves Amy, proving 1) the Doctor can't boss her around and 2) this is a good thing. And then almost immediately the angels show up on the flight deck and the Doctor realizes what has to happen. Or rather, he realizes the inevitable and responds intelligently to the situation. Go with the flow. I remember a number of complaints at the time that the Doctor didn't do enough to overcome the angels, but that is the entire point.

Some interesting thoughts here.
Thank you - I must confess to looking forward to your contribution.

I assume you've read all of [info]goldenmoonrose's exceptional episode reviews on this topic?
Only some of them - I keep meaning to go read them all, but life isn't my friend.

but what makes the whole relationship for me is their final scene together: how much is said in that tiny little understated scene? While neither forgiving her nor making excuses for her, the Doctor speaks to her as another who has failed, over and over, to be the best of his kind. What do you do about it? Well, you go on, and you try to help others be what you could not. There was a good deal of humility in that scene, and while it wasn't quite an apology for the way he'd acted, it was a beautiful example of understanding and leading through example. It's one of my favorite moments showcasing Eleven's self-awareness.
Mmmm, I really ought to go back and re-watch that episode (ought to re-watch the whole season, obviously). Those are very good points, and I don't really have anything to add.

That is an excellent point, and I have nothing to add.
:)

Another important lesson that came out of that I think--which echoes what went on with the starwhale--is that it's possible to make a situation worse by forcing our own interpretation on it (I'm not sure if I'm saying that how I want to).
Well I definitely get what you're trying to put across, and it is a hugely valuable lesson for him, especially the way he - because he is clever - tends to see his own interpretation as right. And this can be the catalyst for badness rather than what stops it.

And, damn, I just realized that at the beginning of this season, he really is determined to make everything miserable, isn't he? Like the way he tried to get Bracewell to remember sad things to make him feel human. Talk about bad mental habits inherited from Ten.
Oh this comment!

Contrast that with "life is a pile of good things and bad things" Doctor from later in the season. I wonder if we could pinpoint a turning point. Could it be during ToA/FaS? He's certainly never that angry again after those episodes, and it's also the point at which he decides he needs to fix Amy.
Yes I think so too - as you say, he never loses his temper in the same way again. (And I think the temper is important in showing his mental state.

kerkevik - an Old!Who fan who didn't much care for the RTD era and bowed out during S2 and has now been drawn in by S5 - was rather shocked at the Doctor's anger in The Beast Below, and I had to try to fill in some of the background and the twenty million issues he carries around these days...)

Then River saves Amy, proving 1) the Doctor can't boss her around and 2) this is a good thing.
Also, again, pointing out that he can be wrong, since he had decided that the teleport was beyond repair. :)

And then almost immediately the angels show up on the flight deck and the Doctor realizes what has to happen. Or rather, he realizes the inevitable and responds intelligently to the situation. Go with the flow. I remember a number of complaints at the time that the Doctor didn't do enough to overcome the angels, but that is the entire point.
*nods a lot a lot* (I've had a veeery long day, or I'd try to say something more clever. Right now I'm just happy that I can still type. *g*)

I must confess to looking forward to your contribution.
*blushes* Sadly, my brain is feeling very sluggish with the meta these days. Too many accumulated thoughts about the series, perhaps. Hopefully it will all settle into order eventually.

Only some of them - I keep meaning to go read them all, but life isn't my friend.
I understand. Definitely keep them marked or something, though, because they are just that good. I'm sure you could lose a whole day to them :-\

I really ought to go back and re-watch that episode (ought to re-watch the whole season, obviously).
Such a disappointing episode overall, and yet THE/CB have some of my absolute favorite character moments of the whole series (particularly the interrogation of Alaya). But, yes, once I'd gotten over my annoyance at Ambrose, I found her utterly fascinating.

And I've just gotten to rewatching some after the finale. It is really interesting to do. Mostly now Eleven seems so much older even than he did at the time (the seduction scene at the end of FaS is now so massively wrong I can barely watch, although that may admittedly have something to do with my own fic writing), but I'm also taking Amy and Rory's relationship a lot more seriously, whereas I'd never quite believed it before. And why did I not notice before how utterly tense River is for all of ToA/FaS? She's hiding it well, but she is just on edge from the very beginning (my esteem for Alex Kingston's acting has now shot through the roof).

Oh this comment!
My mind, it is blown. That bit about Bracewell? Genius.

Old!Who fan who didn't much care for the RTD era and bowed out during S2 and has now been drawn in by S5 - was rather shocked at the Doctor's anger in The Beast Below, and I had to try to fill in some of the background and the twenty million issues he carries around these days...)
That must have taken awhile. Of course, I think we were all shocked at the outburst in TBB.

*blushes* Sadly, my brain is feeling very sluggish with the meta these days. Too many accumulated thoughts about the series, perhaps. Hopefully it will all settle into order eventually.
Oh I know EXACTLY what you mean.

I understand. Definitely keep them marked or something, though, because they are just that good. I'm sure you could lose a whole day to them :-\
Oh yes. (I read her finale one this morning and I think my head fell off from sheer awesome.)

Such a disappointing episode overall, and yet THE/CB have some of my absolute favorite character moments of the whole series (particularly the interrogation of Alaya).
Oh yes. Eleven is just... *flails* (You've seen

fan_enunice's Eleventy Project. Her vid on this two parter is especially brilliant. Well they all are, but that one just *really* works.)

But, yes, once I'd gotten over my annoyance at Ambrose, I found her utterly fascinating.
I'll have to go back and re-watch...

And I've just gotten to rewatching some after the finale. It is really interesting to do. Mostly now Eleven seems so much older even than he did at the time
Really? Oh I *need* to get a re-watch in!

the seduction scene at the end of FaS is now so massively wrong I can barely watch, although that may admittedly have something to do with my own fic writing
Oh I think it's supposed to be cringe-y. (I love this icon! *g*) And despite the fact that I usually hate stuff like that (as in things that make me cringe) I like the fact that the show went there and was completely up-front about it, and got it out of the way.

but I'm also taking Amy and Rory's relationship a lot more seriously, whereas I'd never quite believed it before.
*nods* I can't remember where I mentioned this, but I saw a bit of the Confidential for TEH some days ago, and caught a bit where Arthur was talking about how Rory was totally in love with Amy and wanted to do some big romantic gesture for her, but didn't know where to start... My heart? Broken.

And why did I not notice before how utterly tense River is for all of ToA/FaS? She's hiding it well, but she is just on edge from the very beginning (my esteem for Alex Kingston's acting has now shot through the roof).
Oh I'd not noticed either. Thank you!

My mind, it is blown. That bit about Bracewell? Genius.
I thought you'd like it! :)

That must have taken awhile. Of course, I think we were all shocked at the outburst in TBB.
Ten was very different in how he dealt with things, wasn't he? I like that Eleven is so more... volatile. It's rather healthy I think.

Oh yes. (I read her finale one this morning and I think my head fell off from sheer awesome.)
I was having trouble following that one and couldn't decide if it was her or me. I'm gonna try to come back to it in a few days when, hopefully, my brain has cooled off. I've just been fantastically impressed with every other review she's written.

Her vid on this two parter is especially brilliant. Well they all are, but that one just *really* works.)
Usually I give the vids a skip just because I'm only one person and I can't follow all of it, but thanks for pointing me to that one. It is oddly . . . mesmerizing.

Really? Oh I *need* to get a re-watch in!
Yeah, it's the strangest thing. For most of the season, Eleven has fluctuated between feeling very old and very young, which was compelling enough. But having seen the bedtime story scene, going back to the old episodes now he truly feels like a very old person, who occasionally acts very young. I hope that continues.

I like the fact that the show went there and was completely up-front about it, and got it out of the way.
Such a masterfully done scene, in every way. And I really enjoyed its awkward humor (despite, like you, generally having a problem with cringe-y-ness). Now though? Less funny and more just wrong.

Arthur was talking about how Rory was totally in love with Amy and wanted to do some big romantic gesture for her, but didn't know where to start...
*sniff*

Oh I'd not noticed either. Thank you!
Well, like I said, it's subtle, but if you compare how she acts in the finale, I'm pretty sure I'm not making it up. And it might just be Alex Kingston feeling out the character, but there is something off about her in those episodes. I'd like to think it's deliberate. Of course we're talking about River here, so she plays a pretty cool customer under pressure, but even when she's all confident and flippant at the top of the episode, she seems a bit shaken underneath.

I'm gonna try to come back to it in a few days when, hopefully, my brain has cooled off.
Do. For me it was as if she'd written the review I tried, and failed, to write...

Usually I give the vids a skip just because I'm only one person and I can't follow all of it, but thanks for pointing me to that one. It is oddly . . . mesmerizing.
It is rather, isn't it? And I *adore* vids. Meta vids especially, because they can often capture things I'd have to spend twenty essays hashing out.

But having seen the bedtime story scene, going back to the old episodes now he truly feels like a very old person, who occasionally acts very young. I hope that continues.
I'm sure it will. (I think the general fandom consensus by now is that Eleven is 'The old man in a young body' Doctor.) Looking forward to seeing this in my re-watch.

Now though? Less funny and more just wrong.
Yeah, I can see that. It's just... not how they work. (Which reminds me of something. When Rory returns, he finds that Amy and the Doctor's relationship is *exactly* like it was before. Even without him there the Doctor said 'No thank you!' to Amy.)

And it might just be Alex Kingston feeling out the character, but there is something off about her in those episodes. I'd like to think it's deliberate. Of course we're talking about River here, so she plays a pretty cool customer under pressure, but even when she's all confident and flippant at the top of the episode, she seems a bit shaken underneath.
Hmmm. Interesting.

Can't think of anything to say which hasn't already been said, but let it be known that yet again your meta is utterly brilliant. I half-swear Moffat is deliberately throwing it all back in RTD's face... /grins/ I love them both, but I have to say, Moffat has a certain flair when he does it with Eleven, teaching him how to be the Doctor all over again using Amy... ^.^

Can't think of anything to say which hasn't already been said, but let it be known that yet again your meta is utterly brilliant.
Aw. *blushes*

Moffat has a certain flair when he does it with Eleven, teaching him how to be the Doctor all over again using Amy... ^.^
He really does, and I love it.

*plays icon snap*

After this comes 'Victory of the Daleks', which teaches him something else: It's possible to ose the war, but win the battles- and that's not too shabby. Life goes on even if is not goes on even if he is not Victorious.

..... And then he turns around and teaches the same thing to Amy, in Vincent and the Doctor.

Exactly. I love how everything this season comes back, how a gesture of goodwill in one place reverberates somewhere else. :)

I think I already commented on this over at metardis, but as BBC America is slow I have just finally seen the finale, and that made me think of something else.

When Eleven is preparing to step into the cracks, and he's saying his final goodbyes to Amy, he says that he thought that he could hold on if she could hear him, but that that was just the old him and that he realizes that it's time for him to go. He seems very sad and resigned as he tells her that last story. But later, when Amy remembers him at her wedding, he's already dressed up in a coat and tails, and seems to have expected her to remember him all along.

My question being, do you think when he told her that story about him and the TARDIS, did he know that she would bring him back?

I think he hoped she would. He definitely included certain specific details (old, new, borrowed, bluest blue) that would hopefully help things to click together for her.

So the fact that he dressed up shows how much faith he had in her. :)

Oh, I like that.

I guess what I meant was how the memory he seeded for Amy reflected on his changing nature. Because where Ten was very unpredictable and swung between haphazardly risking his life for others to moping about the possibility of impending death, Eleven seems both very deliberate about what he's doing when he sacrifices himself, first by flying the Pandorica into the TARDIS, and again when he steps into the cracks. He's aware of the consequences, and he seems very resigned to them, if also somewhat regretful.

Ten seems to think he's invincible (or that he should be), which makes his risk-taking seem irresponsible and show-offish. Eleven, on the other hand, seems to be able to resign himself precisely because he has come to a more mature understanding of his own mortality and place in the universe. And here's where I get tripped up--if he knew that Amy could bring him back, doesn't that, to an extent, negate the implications of growth of his sacrifice? If he knew it wasn't really goodbye?

He's aware of the consequences, and he seems very resigned to them, if also somewhat regretful.
*nods a lot* As

green_maia said the other day - with Ten it's always personal. Eleven sometimes makes it personal (see Vampires of Venice) but is generally much better at looking at thing objectively.

Ten seems to think he's invincible (or that he should be), which makes his risk-taking seem irresponsible and show-offish. Eleven, on the other hand, seems to be able to resign himself precisely because he has come to a more mature understanding of his own mortality and place in the universe.
Yes. I also think Ten is very controlling - if he can control things, then they can't hurt him. (There's more to this, but I don't have the time.)

And here's where I get tripped up--if he knew that Amy could bring him back, doesn't that, to an extent, negate the implications of growth of his sacrifice? If he knew it wasn't really goodbye?
I don't think so. He was erased from time, after all - not just dead but unmade - and his only way back was through the memory of a young girl. She might not have remembered. (And without River's prompting she might not have.) He plays it cool of course when he returns (because he's the Doctor and he knows how awesome he is), but it was a chance in a million.

He plays it cool of course when he returns (because he's the Doctor and he knows how awesome he is), but it was a chance in a million.

Oh, that's a nice way of putting it. I think you're right. And in the same way that it would have ruined it if it had been quite obvious that he would return, it would have been somewhat out of character and too much if he, like Amy, had been all tearful and overwhelmed when he came back. It was much more subtle, the way they showed his joy through his ridiculous dancing and all those long looks he gave Amy and Rory.

It was much more subtle, the way they showed his joy through his ridiculous dancing and all those long looks he gave Amy and Rory.
Exactly - so much of Eleven is show, don't tell (which is one reason I love it so much). He is just so brimming with joy in those last scenes that it's almost ridiculous. (River's ominous 'I'm sorry - everything is going to *change*!!!' just leaves him smiling. He's there to experience it, that's what matters!)

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Meta: Becoming Eleven

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