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Behold! I have discovered where the idea for s8 came from!
Via this page of Joss Whedon quotes:
It’s better to be a spy in the house of love, you know ? . . . If I made ‘Buffy the Lesbian Separatist,’ a series of lectures on PBS on why there should be feminism, no one would be coming to the party, and it would be boring. The idea of changing culture is important to me, and it can only be done in a popular medium.
On the whole, I'd greatly have preferred the lectures.
ETA: Since I'm here, this vid is very, very good at showing the problematic nature of some of Joss' work:
My Medea by![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
yunitsa. Many thanks to rm for helping me find it again.
It’s better to be a spy in the house of love, you know ? . . . If I made ‘Buffy the Lesbian Separatist,’ a series of lectures on PBS on why there should be feminism, no one would be coming to the party, and it would be boring. The idea of changing culture is important to me, and it can only be done in a popular medium.
On the whole, I'd greatly have preferred the lectures.
ETA: Since I'm here, this vid is very, very good at showing the problematic nature of some of Joss' work:
My Medea by
yunitsa. Many thanks to rm for helping me find it again.
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To pull out one of the quotes from the page I linked to:
Well, it does, and it doesn’t because, ultimately, stories come from violence, they come from sex. They come from death. They come from the dark places that everybody has to go to, kind of wants to, or doesn’t, but needs to deal with. If you raise a kid to think everything is sunshine and flowers, they’re going to get into the real world and die. And ultimately, to access these base emotions, to go to these strange places, to deal with sexuality, to deal with horror and death, is what people need and it’s the reason that we tell these stories. That’s the reason fairy tales are so creepy, because we need to encapsulate these things, to inoculate ourselves against them, so that when we’re confronted by the genuine horror that is day-to-day life we don’t go insane.
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Same here. Although even if he is showcasing his guilt in public, does that make it OK to keep coming back to the same thing(s)? Really I ought to watch Dollhouse, but the mere concept squicks me, so... dunno.
(Someone made a vid about it - well, about how he has these 'strong' broken women, and what does that say about him etc. Will see if I can hunt it down.)
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The fundamental concept of Dollhouse doesn't squick me out, and in fact really itnerests me, but since it was made largely all about women, it turned squicky in a not useful way to my mind. That said, I haven't watched it either ;)
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The fundamental concept of Dollhouse doesn't squick me out, and in fact really itnerests me
Actually, the same here. You can do a lot about what makes people who they are, playing with memory etc. But yeah, it's the way it was spun, and how (so I understand) the show shows the evils of objectification whilst objectifying...
ETA: Just wanted to mention that the vid reminded me of why I love S6 ('Dead Things' in particular) so much. One of Joss's stock characters is the nerd in power, controlling the [broken] women - but the Trio, aspiring to this, are shown for what they are: Not smooth 'super villains', but sad boys refusing to grow up, and their attempt at control is exposed as quite simply rape dressed up in fancy words.
(Sorry about that random tangent, but sometimes my show gets things very right.)
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Yeah, I was saying this the other day. I don't really care about what the show is trying to say, because it seems to be unaware of how skeevy it is itself at times.
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Whedon spends too much time wanting a cookie.
Ha!
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If you're interested, and you don't mind me self-pimping, I once compiled a list of every instance of questionable consent that my friends and I could think of in the Buffyverse. But it's got lots of spoilers for AtS and for BtVS S8, so you might not want to look at it if you intend to check those out.
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After his latest work, Whedon really does need to keep his face shut about the topic of feminism. He's either uninformed about what it actually means or his ego is so big he actually thinks he's above the details and he feels he can shape it.
Or both.
His own issues, IMO, cloud his work too much.
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He's a good writer, he just really needs boundaries and people to check everything.
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On top of his issues with rape and dubcon, there's another side of the coin: the constant reminder that sex is bad, or at least leads to bad things, and the complete lack of long-term, happy relationships. Zoe and Wash used to stand as the sole romantic relationship in the entire Whedonverse that lasted longer than a season or two, but like all Jossian relationships, that, too, ended in tears. The concept of a happy marriage seems absolutely foreign to him (the example of happy marriage I know
Don't really want to speculate on the root of his rape fetish.
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On top of his issues with rape and dubcon, there's another side of the coin: the constant reminder that sex is bad, or at least leads to bad things, and the complete lack of long-term, happy relationships.
That's a very good point. I don't have much to add (it's late, I'm half asleep), although Fred's parents were happy and well adjusted - which is, as you say, a huge anomaly. I've not seen much of The West Wing unfortunately, but I remember the Bartletts are being wonderful and interesting in that way that long term couples are.
Don't really want to speculate on the root of his rape fetish.
Me neither.
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I'd probably have preferred the lectures too. I can't tell you how much I like the idea of Joss being interviewed on PBS.
I have occasionally thought that part of why I much prefer Buffy, the series to Buffy, the comic is that the network provided a check to the worst of his crazyness and/or bad ideas...
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Doesn't it just? Hmmm, comic books, what should I do? Oh yes, that idea, that'd work nicely!
I'd probably have preferred the lectures too. I can't tell you how much I like the idea of Joss being interviewed on PBS.
*g*
I have occasionally thought that part of why I much prefer Buffy, the series to Buffy, the comic is that the network provided a check to the worst of his crazyness and/or bad ideas...
Word. Also the comics are crap. But that's something else....
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I can't quite pin down why this statement bugs me so much, but it does. Was Joss equating feminist thought with stereotypical slurs against queers? Does he think he has the answer as to why feminism is important? He really thinks he's the one in the know who can show us all? I am befuddled at that level of hubris. It doesn't even seem like he was aware of the privileged way he was speaking. It's a snarky statement, to be sure, but with snark always comes underlying belief. Again, I can't quite pin it down, but I am officially bugged.
It only makes the gaping misogyny in S8 more irritating. If this is Joss' version of mansplaining feminist ideals, he can take his 'Yay, Feminism!' lecture and shove it.
That vid is haunting and sad. I wish there were more of BtVS and AtS in it - of the shadowmen chaining Buffy to the earth, of Giles controlling her power during the cruciamentum, of D'hoffryn and Anya/Halfrek, of Cordy's destruction at Skip's hands, etc. As it is, it is a chilling depiction of Whedon's yen for 'strong' yet broken girls.
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This. It's hard to pin down, but I think it's something like 'Look I'm cleverly using my privilege to put a message across, so that makes me one you, right? Cookie please!' Or maybe it's that because he labels himself 'feminist' he assumes that what he produces will automatically become feminist?
I dunno. It's giving me a headache.
It only makes the gaping misogyny in S8 more irritating. If this is Joss' version of mansplaining feminist ideals, he can take his 'Yay, Feminism!' lecture and shove it.
*nods a LOT*
That vid is haunting and sad. I wish there were more of BtVS and AtS in it - of the shadowmen chaining Buffy to the earth, of Giles controlling her power during the cruciamentum, of D'hoffryn and Anya/Halfrek, of Cordy's destruction at Skip's hands, etc.
That would be great. (And now I'm going to go and watch 'Bachelorette' I think...)
As it is, it is a chilling depiction of Whedon's yen for 'strong' yet broken girls.
It really is. Actually Dru and Fred would have fitted in better than Buffy - they have that fragile, childlike, (sometime) insanity thing going on too. Also, of course, they're brunettes...
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OH! I immediately thought of 'Bachelorette' when watching that vid! We are of like mind. *high fives*
Actually Dru and Fred would have fitted in better than Buffy - they have that fragile, childlike, (sometime) insanity thing going on too. Also, of course, they're brunettes... Exactly this. You are right on. They would fit perfectly with River and Echo. Dark-haired women who appear physically frail and have been tortured in some way, but are ultimately strong willed, yet get crushed anyways. What IS that with Joss' work? I mean, jeez!
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*grins* Love that vid. (And the fact that Buffy - despite all the problems - overcomes and *works* as a feminist show. Not counting the comics, obviously.)
Dark-haired women who appear physically frail and have been tortured in some way, but are ultimately strong willed, yet get crushed anyways. What IS that with Joss' work? I mean, jeez!
The man has a type. It's... quite disturbing, really.