Hello Sweetie: A Doctor/River Essay.

[elisi]

One thing, before I start...

The other day my eldest (Miss M, 11 y.o.) said to me:

“You know, I think River would be pretty quick to shut up anyone who says that girls aren’t as good as boys!”

I could only agree wholeheartedly. Because here’s the thing: River is awesome. River is smart and brilliant and capable and can hold her own against the Doctor, and doesn’t apologise. River does her own thing - she is Doctor Song, and later becomes Professor Song. River sends the Doctor messages through time and space, and she’s a time traveller in her own right. River can fly the TARDIS.

In short: She’s River Song, and she is a Big. Damn. Hero.

I have three daughters, and Doctor Who is their favourite show. And it has given them one of the most wonderful, truly strong, female characters I've ever come across. I cannot begin to explain how grateful I am.

***

But really, I’m here beause I have meta to share. I just... wanted to put that out there.

SPOILERS: All of S5 + Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead.

Oh, and if you like, you’re very welcome to see this as a ‘ship manifesto. :)


“You and me, time and space. You watch us run!”
Doctor: Hi honey. I’m home.
River: And what sort of time do you call this?

Their married-couple interaction is a thing of pure beauty. Not only does it ground a hugely unconventional relationship in something we can relate to, it is also highly entertaining and *very* appetite-wetting. Are they married? Properly married married - or something else?

Although really, the marriage thing is a bit of a red herring. Because their relationship is something more, something beyond that.

“I’m not always going to be there to catch you!” the Doctor admonishes in ‘Time of Angels’, and River laughs him off: “And you are so wrong!”

Because that’s what they do, that’s how it works. They’re always there to catch each other. In actions, in words - back and forth, to-me to-you to-me to-you, always looking for a way to undercut the other and get the upper hand, and simultaneously supporting, trusting, believing in each other 100%.

Is it any wonder River was so disappointed in the Library?

RIVER: You know... it's funny, I keep wishing the Doctor was here.
ANITA: The Doctor is here, isn't he? He's coming back, right?
RIVER: You know when you see a photograph of someone you know, but it's from years before you knew them? It's like they're not quite... finished, they're not done yet. Well... yes, the Doctor's here. He came when I called, just like he always does. But not my Doctor. Now my Doctor... I've seen whole armies turn and run away. And he'd just swagger off back to his TARDIS and open the doors with a snap of his fingers. The Doctor... in the TARDIS... next stop: everywhere.
The Doctor appears suddenly.
DOCTOR: Spoilers! Nobody can open a TARDIS by snapping their fingers. It doesn't work like that.
RIVER: It does for the Doctor.
DOCTOR: I am the Doctor.
RIVER: Yeah. Some day.

It’s not really about the armies turning and running, or the swagger, or the finger snapping, I don’t think. It’s because the (Tenth) Doctor didn’t know the game they play. She kept tossing him the ball (as always) but he never caught it, just looked at her without comprehension, wondering what the hell she was doing. All the things that were always a given and taken as understood were suddenly questioned, needing to be qualified and quantified and explained - and something that needs explaining can’t ever work like it should.

("And he looks at me, he looks right through me and it shouldn't kill me, but it does.")

At some point I will sit down and watch the Library eps, this time seeing them with River’s eyes, and I fully expect to come away going ‘Dear God, you're hard work young!’

*sniff*

But. Let’s go back to The Big Bang, and the Doctor rescuing River from the exploding TARDIS. Because their wonderful interaction does away with any damselling - River doesn’t fall into her hero’s arms, oh no. She berates him for being late! ;)

Then of course they re-appear back on Earth and I’m going to quote promethia_tenk, because she summed it up perfectly:

You know what I thought there, seriously? "Mom and Dad are home and everything's going to be alright now."

They really, really have that vibe, and I love it to distraction. And thinking about it, it’s part of the reason I ship them. (To touch again upon what I wrote at the start.) Because River isn’t a Companion as such. She doesn’t need the Doctor in order to see the wonders of the universe, doesn’t depend on him the way Companions do. She dances ahead, teasing, tantalising, holding her own. A partner, not an assistant.

Actually - I’m reminded of something the_royal_anna once wrote about Wesley and Lilah from AtS:

This is where the Wes/Lilah dynamic was extraordinary. Wesley has this overwhelming need to protect, to be the man. Fred won't stand for it. Little Fred, who'll go giggly and girly over her lab assistant, doesn't want him to protect her. But Lilah, strong, powerful Lilah, who watched her own back and only hers, Lilah let him. It's exactly because she was strong, because she had faith in herself, that she could let him. And so when the Beast comes to ravage W&H she'll let him play knight to her damsel in distress, because she understands. Understands him, understands her, knows what he needs from her and what she needs from him.

There is an awful, awful lot of this in Doctor/River. (Except they’re SO much less screwed up, thank goodness.) Most of all though, River understands him. To just briefly jump ahead, then a moment that breaks my heart is when the Doctor wants to say goodbye to Amy. And Amy replies that surely he wants River, and River just shakes her head.

“He doesn’t really know me yet.”

To be able to take a step back, to put *his* needs above her own without malice - now that is love. Real, and mature, and clear-sighted.

“Oh Doctor, why do I ever let you out?” she sighs in ‘The Pandorica Opens’ when seeing Amy’s room, and that one little sentence tells us so much. She can see the wonder of him, but knows the danger of falling for it (“I hate white wizards in fairy tales, they always turn out to be him!”) - sees clearly the man beneath the mask.

I remember listening to the podcast for the Library episodes, and Moffat saying how when she whispers the Doctor’s name to him, he is, at that moment, reduced to just a man, without any of the fancy spectacles or titles he usually hides behind. But, I think (hope) this will go both ways, once we discover who River actually is, and what she is to the Doctor.

Because she certainly isn’t a saint, or an innocent. She lies, cheats and steals in order to get what she wants or needs, and seemingly doesn’t much care that a man has been crippled so she can travel in time. (Yes, the universe is in danger, and the end clearly justifies the means. Still I'm sure the Doctor would be pretty horrified if he found out.)

Now there are a lot of overt parallels between Jack and River (other than the 51st Century attitude to sexuality and the very interesting use of Jack’s tagline ‘[21st Century is] when everything changes’ etc). JB often refers to Jack as the ‘muscle’ on DW, the one carrying the big gun, fighting the battles the Doctor won’t, and River - with her gun always at the ready - clearly fulfils a similar role in many ways. (“Records indicate that you will show mercy!” “I’m River Song. Check your records again.”)

What’s interesting about this isn’t River’s attitude as such (we’ve always had characters like this, the Brig being the most immediate that springs to mind), but the fact that the Doctor gets involved with her, [possibly] to the point of marriage. I foresee a lot clashes, and (hopefully) a lot of the Doctor being called on his (sometime) hypocrisy. After all, he was deemed the most dangerous creature in all of the universe...

Stepping sideways for a minute, then one thing I loved about The Big Bang, and the fact that the Doctor was going to erase himself in order to save the universe, is how it ties back to the Library episodes:

DOCTOR: You can let me do this!
RIVER: If you die here, it'll mean I've never met you.
DOCTOR: Time can be rewritten.
RIVER: Not those times. Not one line! Don't you dare!

Because she’s been there. And she’d rather die than go through that again, this time without an Amy to bring him back...

As for the season as a whole, I love how the Doctor/River relationship has (very organically) gone from:

“I can run away if I want to! Time is not the boss of me!” to “Are you married, River?”

Re. that first statement, and their behaviour in ‘Time of Angels’, then it becomes even funnier in retrospect (just to repeat the exchange I used at the start):

Grumpy!Doctor: “I’m not always going to be there to catch you!” (Translation: *grumblegrumblegrumble*Women*grumble*)
Smug!River: “And you are so wrong!” (Translation: From my point of view, you pretty much just proposed. So you might as well stop protesting, because Darling - you don’t stand a chance!)

But, going back to my point, I especially love how the fact that she might have killed him is one of the things that really sparked his interest. And this is not just because he’s a very messed up kinda person (although that’s part of it, I’m sure), but because it puts them on a much more even footing, and alleviates a fair bit of his guilt.

And there is the fact that, despite infuriating (and intriguing) him, she not only trusts him absolutely:

Octavian: Doctor Song, do you trust this man.
River: I absolutely trust him.
Octavian: He's not some kind of madman then?
River: *beat* I absolutely trust him.

- but also, as she points out before she dies, he knows (has always known) how she dies, knows that she dies for him, and that he *can* trust her too, trust her absolutely. Knows he can throw pretty much anything at her and that she’ll cope, that she won’t ever leave him. As a way into his heart, these qualities are hard to top.

Which is why one of my favourite moments in ‘Flesh and Stone’ is the moment when he loses it and yells her down. Because to have that - to have someone you don’t have to hold back with, someone you can take out your frustrations on, if necessary - is something the Doctor needs very much I think. (See? They’re *so* married, even if they aren’t.)

And then of course comes the ‘Hello Sweetie’ in 50ft high letters graffittied on the oldest cliff face in the universe... (“You wouldn’t answer your phone!”) His smile when seeing it is one of the most brilliant things ever, because he tries not to smile, but can’t help himself. The lady has truly impressed him.

All of it leading to that wonderful scene after the wedding.

“Did you dance?” he hears her say, and he stops, smiling.

And then follows the conversation that ends up with the Doctor getting himself entangled in his own words (if he was ever going to get married, it’d definitely be because of a situation like this...), and what I love so much is that he is very aware of how his words could have been misconstrued. That him thinking about marrying her could be a perfectly logical thing by now. And no, he isn’t quite there yet. But he’s interested, and has stopped running away. As a matter of fact, he’s thinking about running towards...

Finally, then I’ve been pondering River’s fate, and the Doctor’s actions. It is quite clearly a problematic ending - is his overriding need to save people at any cost a positive or a negative? Because her virtual heaven could just as easily be seen as an imposed impossibility for moving on, for finding final peace. The Lonely God once more incapable of letting go, and needing to give her a ‘happy ending’ whether she wanted it or not.

But. That was Ten, and his motivations. Eleven is a very different creature, and so is the way he operates. And now, I rather suspect that somewhere in that virtual paradise there is a message for River, saying ‘Gotcha’.

See, Doctor/River strikes me as in so many ways being what Doctor/Master could have been, if only the Master hadn’t gone evil (and insane). The continual need to get the better of the other, to outsmart and outmanoeuvre each other, is one of the things that lies at the heart of their relationship, and simple death won’t change that...

RIVER: Oh, for heaven's sake! He just can't do it, can he? That man, that impossible man! He just can't give in.

And then we get this, which is very interesting viewed in the light of S5:

River: Now and then, every once in a very long while, every day in a million days, when the wind stands fair, and the Doctor comes to call... everybody lives.

Cut: River closes the TARDIS book. She gives a goodnight kiss to the Girl, who is now in the third bed in the children's room, beside Donna's kids Ella and Joshua.

River: Sweet dreams, everyone.

She switches off the lights and the screen goes black.

River Song, reading bedtime stories to children from her diary...

(“You and me, time and space. You watch us run!”)

Because this is the thing:

“That's okay, we're all stories in the end. Just make it a good one, eh? 'Cause it was, you know. It was the best. A daft old man who stole a magic box and ran away.”

Oh Mr Moffat, you truly magnificent story teller. I think you’ve outdone yourself with this one. (Are outdoing, will outdo... I love watching them run!)

*
Still, I am sure that one day River will decide that it is her time, and send one last, final message to her Doctor:

‘Goodbye Sweetie.’

Fin

Comments

[bewarethespork.livejournal.com]

YES. Just, yes. This is everything I love about Doctor/River as a ship (not that that stops me from shipping other things, but I do so love this ship in particular at the moment :D), all put together so beautifully eloquently. ♥

[elisi]

Aw, thank you! And oh I ship other ships too, definitely, but these two just work for me in all sorts of interesting ways, so I had to write it all down. ♥

[silvia-elisa.livejournal.com]

I don't think I have anything to add to this; you've said it all and well.

At some point I will sit down and watch the Library eps, this time seeing them with River’s eyes, and I fully expect to come away going ‘Dear God, you're hard work young!’

Yes. I want to be able to do this and laugh/cry in hindsight.

[elisi]

I don't think I have anything to add to this; you've said it all and well.
Thank you! :)

Yes. I want to be able to do this and laugh/cry in hindsight.
I'd have done it already, except I've lent my DVDs to a friend. But when I get them back... *looks forward*

[me-llamo-nic.livejournal.com]

I really don't have anything to say except "Word", but I'll go ahead and say it anyway.

Word.

So much word.

[elisi]

'Word' will do me...

:)

[velara.livejournal.com]

Lovely.

Edit to add:

I should've said this originally.. I just finished a 1-4 and specials rewatch - just heading back into this last season now (at Amy's Choice) and oh my.. after watching this season and going back to Ten.. and watching Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead... he is SOOO young, and my heart almost breaks as River realizes it's their first meeting from his point of view. My husband watched with me, to specifically watch that first scene again too.. That hopeful Hello Sweetie as she lowers her visor.. and the way her eyes track him through everything, as she realizes.. he doesn't feel the same as her. It has so much more meaning after this last season.

[elisi]

Lovely.
Thank you!

and watching Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead... he is SOOO young, and my heart almost breaks as River realizes it's their first meeting from his point of view.
"This is the Doctor in the days before he knew me. And he looks at me, he looks right through me and it shouldn't kill me, but it does."

Oh I'm going to watch it as soon as I get my DVDs back (lent them to a good friend who's curious about this Doctor Who that her flist keeps talking about...). I fully expect my heart to be broken.

[shadowturquoise.livejournal.com]

I went back and rewatched her 2 eps with Ten too. All I could think the whole time is Damn! This is so hard on her Because Ten really was a lot of hard work and I can so see now why she missed "her" Doctor.

[scarlettgirl.livejournal.com]

I really enjoyed this. River's story has captivated me the most this season. I love how she turns the Doctor's smugness back on him and it drives him batty. He ALWAYS knows what's going on, he ALWAYS has the drop on the situation, he ALWAYS is the most clever creature in the room and River shows him up every time. It's delicious.

But...this season has shown a deeper side of that story and one that, as you said, give the events of S4, is only natural. The tables are turned and there is a feeling of tenderness beneath the Doctor's exasperation. Smith's Doctor plays on that so very, very well.

River's ending in S4 always bothered me. Here she was, this grand adventuress, reduced to the Angel in The House trope. It pissed me off, honestly. I honestly believe with then 14th Doctor (what? Could happen!) figures a way to get her out of there, she is going to kick his arse but good. ;)

(I've pm'd you. Thought I'd mention it just in case LJ is being fickle today *g*)

[elisi]

I really enjoyed this.
Yay!

River's story has captivated me the most this season. I love how she turns the Doctor's smugness back on him and it drives him batty. He ALWAYS knows what's going on, he ALWAYS has the drop on the situation, he ALWAYS is the most clever creature in the room and River shows him up every time. It's delicious.
Wordy McWord. I could watch them all day!

But...this season has shown a deeper side of that story and one that, as you said, give the events of S4, is only natural. The tables are turned and there is a feeling of tenderness beneath the Doctor's exasperation. Smith's Doctor plays on that so very, very well.
Oh yes, 'tenderness' that's the perfect word.

It pissed me off, honestly. I honestly believe with then 14th Doctor (what? Could happen!) figures a way to get her out of there, she is going to kick his arse but good. ;)
Yeah, I wouldn't be at all surprised if something like that happened. Or if her last message was ''OK Doctor, I've read all the books in the universe. Twice. And I'm bored out of my mind. So please come and get me the hell out, kill me for good, or I blow up the planet!' But that wasn't as succinct or emotionally satisfying as 'Goodbye Sweetie' so... *g*

And I'll get back to you, promise.

[tempestas-inu.livejournal.com]

River and the Doctor's relationship is an odd one for me... I dislike it romantically in the conventional sense and I can't bring myself to read shippy fanfic of it because of that. I don't even like the idea of her as a long term companion in the conventional sense either because I find that part of the mystery is the fact she pops up at random intervals of his life in different orders. But so far on the show, whenever she's onscreen, their unfinished story really comes to life and I find myself wanting to know how it happens. I love their banter, I love River being cryptic with him, I love those melancholy moments where River finds herself saddened that "he doesn't know [her] yet". I love that the Doctor only became truly intrigued by her when he learned that there's far more to her than just a woman he keeps meeting at the wrong times. For once there's someone who knows more than he does and she's a big mystery that he has to solve. And through it all she trusts him regardless of how little or how much he knows of her.

I really love this analysis of yours, how the Doctor and River song relate to each other; it's well thought out, and it kind of nails what's different about their relationship. I think my favorite bits are the ones juxtaposing her meeting with him in the Library in S4 compared to her meetings here in S5, how what we know now can be used to learn more about how and why she interacted with him in the way she did the first time he ever saw her (and who knows? Maybe being loaded in the library wasn't the true end for her, because as you said the Doctor is no longer quite as obsessed with saving everyone to the point of giving them a fate they would rather not have). Oh and... loved those quotes, absolutely love, those are some of my favorite quotes ever and its interesting to see the situations they were said in tie into each other.

Oh and.... totally my being nosey but, are you still gonna do a write up for the Big Bang? Or is that now a foregone conclusion? XD.

Still, this was a great read. Thanks!

[elisi]

Thank you so much for all your thoughts! I don't really have anything to add, but I'm so glad the essay worked for you, and it's always interesting to get a different perspective.

Oh and.... totally my being nosey but, are you still gonna do a write up for the Big Bang? Or is that now a foregone conclusion? XD.
*wonders whether to laugh or cry* This essay started out as part of my Big Bang meta/thoughts, but I realised that it really was its own thing and decided to cut it loose and post it. So, um, I have a post/essay/monster *thing* that's twice the length of this essay, waiting to be sorted out. Except every time I just end up finding more patterns and layers and themes... *headdesk*

[promethia_tenk]

Excellent, beautiful, concise, very much agreed, etc., etc.

And your daughter's comment makes me very, very happy. I wish I had River Song around when I was a little girl; I always ended up sympathizing with the evil witches in fairy tales because it was the most palatable option I had.

Oh, and thanks for quoting me!

Their married-couple interaction is a thing of pure beauty.
I also appreciate how Steven Moffat, writer of sitcoms, is taking every annoying sitcom marriage cliche and making it a private joke between them. At first I just found this funny, but now I take it as a sign that Moffat plans to treat marriage very seriously indeed in this show. He's taken what--let's face it--amounts to the entire substance of what marriage is on most shows and is using it almost as a meta commentary running over the substance of what's going on--yet another instance of him playing with text and subtext, flipping them over on themselves. I'm anticipating a very thoughtful and unconventional portrait of marriage (one that we can already see emerging).

They’re always there to catch each other. In actions, in words - back and forth, to-me to-you to-me to-you, always looking for a way to undercut the other and get the upper hand, and simultaneously supporting, trusting, believing in each other 100%.
I'm reminded of the "yes" conversation. Because that's what it must always be between them, the only way they could ever work: yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Over and over and over.

But Lilah, strong, powerful Lilah, who watched her own back and only hers, Lilah let him. It's exactly because she was strong, because she had faith in herself, that she could let him.
Thank you for finding some words for this because this, to me, is what cuts right to the heart of River's character and what makes her so entirely different from any other female character I can think of. Her trusting the Doctor is strength. It's not a surrender. It's not an admission of less-ness. There's no shame in it, and nothing defensive in it. And in the end it makes her so much more because it opens her up to so much more. I think it's one of the most inspiring depictions of genuine self worth I have ever seen, and it is shocking to see it emerge out of a cultural landscape full of damsels in distress and "strong" women who are 1) evil 2) destined to always be fundamentally alone and/or 3) eventually going to give in and compromise themselves for the sake of a relationship.

She can see the wonder of him, but knows the danger of falling for it (“I hate white wizards in fairy tales, they always turn out to be him!”) - sees clearly the man beneath the mask.
Another defining moment in this vein, for me, was her speech to the Roman commander: "You've been a soldier too long to believe there are gods watching over us. But there is a man, and tonight he needs your help." It was the anti-Tinkerbell Jesus Doctor speech, the anti-"burns in the heart of time" speech that got more and more sickening each time I had to listen to it. Of course River would be the one to bring this much-needed perspective.

I foresee a lot clashes, and (hopefully) a lot of the Doctor being called on his (sometime) hypocrisy.
I had to wonder how the Doctor would have responded to River's treatment of the Dalek. If ever a scene had big, flashing, neon "foreshadowing" signs on it, that one did.

Eeep! Appallingly long comment must be broken up :-\

[promethia_tenk]

Translation: From my point of view, you pretty much just proposed. So you might as well stop protesting, because Darling - you don’t stand a chance!
Very much looking forward to watching River's episodes in her order to mine them for insights. It hadn't occurred to me, for instance, until I read this that part of her sang froid in ToA has to do with her knowing how soon he's going to come around to liking her, but it makes sense. And something that struck me recently is that she must be so quick to look after Amy in those episodes because she's been to her house, seen the dolls and such, and knows *exactly* how broken Amy is, how much support she needs, how much Amy is going to mean to the Doctor, and how casually he is treating her now ("River, hug Amy."). She is really looking out for the Doctor here, and covering for his failings, far more than anyone else realizes at the time.

Finally, then I’ve been pondering River’s fate, and the Doctor’s actions. It is quite clearly a problematic ending
I'm so divided on this. All signs point to Moff intending that as a genuinely happy ending (not that he gets final say, but it bears consideration), and the involvement of whatever older Doctor gave her the screwdriver kind of suggests that it's not a decision he's going to change his mind about, not just the actions of the Lonely God Ten (although here, admittedly, time can be rewritten, so maybe we'll see it undone). I think in the end I accept it because I'm willing to privilege a symbolic interpretation over a character-based interpretation and even over a personal reaction. Personally, the idea of eternity is horrifying to me, and I take great comfort in the idea that, someday, I will cease to be. When I think of River's character, of course she shouldn't be stuck for all eternity, looking after kids. But on a symbolic level of storytelling and infinite knowledge and as a kind of mother to the universe? Entirely appropriate. I've decided not to get too worked up about it. And, of course, the connection you've pointed out to the bedtime story scene in "The Big Bang" is absolutely lovely.

Ok, sorry if I got to rambling. Thank you for the thoughtful meta!

[elisi]

Excellent, beautiful, concise, very much agreed, etc., etc.
*beams*

And your daughter's comment makes me very, very happy. I wish I had River Song around when I was a little girl; I always ended up sympathizing with the evil witches in fairy tales because it was the most palatable option I had.
I'm pretty sure I found a fair few heroines (I devoured books, and we didn't have a TV), but to have someone as awesome as River (and Amy etc.) right there is truly a gift.

He's taken what--let's face it--amounts to the entire substance of what marriage is on most shows and is using it almost as a meta commentary running over the substance of what's going on--yet another instance of him playing with text and subtext, flipping them over on themselves.
I swear, that man will be the death of me. I've not had anything to analyse *properly* since BtVS/AtS ended, and suddenly there's this and I'm getting lost in all the themes and layers etc. etc.

I'm reminded of the "yes" conversation. Because that's what it must always be between them, the only way they could ever work: yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Over and over and over.
You know, I think I was going to mention that, but forgot. Because you're absolutely right - they just have to re-create the relationship over and over, and they don't have the time to discuss the small print every time. Which River of course manages to convey absolutely beautifully. "Yes!" (Stop defining things, just go with it! I'll always say yes.)

Thank you for finding some words for this because this, to me, is what cuts right to the heart of River's character and what makes her so entirely different from any other female character I can think of. Her trusting the Doctor is strength.
I've actually just remembered another quote (also by Anna, because she's awesome like that), which fits them: I think what I love most about Season 7 of BtVS is that over the course of it, Buffy and Spike become stronger and more dependent [on each other]. In a world that loves to tell us we should all be strong and independent there's something very extraordinary about that.

"You've been a soldier too long to believe there are gods watching over us. But there is a man, and tonight he needs your help." It was the anti-Tinkerbell Jesus Doctor speech, the anti-"burns in the heart of time" speech that got more and more sickening each time I had to listen to it. Of course River would be the one to bring this much-needed perspective.
Oh, anti-Tinkerbell, I like that. It's also very anti-Lonely God! (That said, I'm rather fond of Tinkerbell!Doctor, because I tend to gravitate towards things that others dislike. *g*) And - just because it pleases me no end - I feel I must point out that the Doctor *does* burn at the centre of time now...

I had to wonder how the Doctor would have responded to River's treatment of the Dalek. If ever a scene had big, flashing, neon "foreshadowing" signs on it, that one did.
M-hm! I was actually reminded of his behaviour at the end of the Manhattan episodes ('The only person likely to show you mercy'), and couldn't help comparing. It all bodes well! *looks forward to S6 with great anticipation*

Eeep! Appallingly long comment must be broken up :-\
Not a problem, honestly! *loves long comments*

[lizzledpink.livejournal.com]

See, this is what I'm telling people! I don't know if River and the Doctor are married. I don't think they are. But what does it MATTER? They ARE married, in every sense of the word (except, perhaps, legal, yeah?)

They're airing season 4 right now over here... /grins/ Friday and next Monday they show Silence and Forest again. Will be the first time I see those episodes since TPO/TBB. You're right, it's going to mean SO much more.
(And I'm probably going to glare at Alex Kingston for not acting the part quite right, except I can't really blame her, because at that point she doesn't know how to be River entirely, she's only just learning... /grins/ In TotA/F&S she's worked her out much more, but by TPO/TBB she has River down pat, it's brilliant.)

Anyway!

Love this entire analysis. River's relationship with the Doctor is just brilliant. I think part of what makes people fall in love is wanting to know them, and being continually surprised by them - at least, for the Doctor. He's so intellectual; it makes sense that curiosity would be a major part of that for him. (Well, it would be for me...) And it's incredible how the RiverxDoctor dynamic changes.
Ten's all like EEEEEH? The entire time. It's hysterical. And he's slightly curious about River at the end, but a bit more afraid that he'll have to meet her again yet know her fate, and slightly amazed.
So we go to Eleven, and seriously, it's AMAZING. Their entire dynamic changes within ONE short adventure. Starts out he's afraid of her, he doesn't WANT to know what she becomes. And then she annoys him. And she hints at things. And it's hair-out-pulling. But then they get to work, trying to decipher the Angel diary, and he starts to respect her, I think. They bounce off each other brilliantly. There's that hilarious bit with River and Amy, asking if they're married. And the Doctor quite obviously listening in. He can't help it, yeah? Might help him define this batty relationship of theirs, if River'd just TELL HIM!
Then in the Maze of the Dead, they both are the ones to work out the trick with the Aplans - they're working off each other, and the Doctor realizes, I think, just how much of a match for him she is. Not just in banter, in being smart, in... everything.

(Ack, this is turning into my own ADDITIONAL River Song rant, isn't it? Ha! I ought to tack this on somewhere... Anyway...)

Next bit we have where she says she absolutely trusts him. I think that, for the Doctor, is remarkable. Really, really remarkable. People always rely on him, but TRUST him, so irrevocably, so completely? And still accept that yes, he IS a total madman, but that's what makes him so great? You're right, she understands him, that's what makes her special.

And then we have the mess with the Angels plot distracting them much of the time, but they get through it, and if not for River, there'dn't be an Amy - she'd have died. She's good. Very, very good.

By the end, I think he's finally given up on trying to figure out how you label that relationship they have. Suddenly, he's not Mr. Grumpyface. He's smiling, teasing, maybe even a bit flirtatious. She gives him the spoiler about the Pandorica, and he just laughs, and then she's gone - and he's still amused. Looking forward to it.

It just amazes me how much, in ONE ADVENTURE, their dynamic changes. He goes from complete avoidance to insatiable curiosity, and their relationship becomes what it's going to be right before our eyes. It's kind of amazing. Just a bit. Hell, she hints that she killed the best man she's ever known - quite possibly him! - and he's only more intrigued!

:D Yeah, almost done. Sorry.

Really, it doesn't matter if they're legally married or not. They just are. They're closer than most people who are married. They dance around each other perfectly. (And poor River, having to deal with Ten later/earlier, unable to teach him how to dance to her tune.)

/grins/ Oh, next season will be FUN. Confirmed Amy and Rory, and confirmed River. And everything changes. (Still loving the Jack parallels; hope we see him later?) And we learn about the Silence... maybe. Might last more than one season. Loving this arc. Loving River.

^.^ Done now. Thanks for the opportunity for River-speculation... Been meaning to get around to it for a while!

[lizzledpink.livejournal.com]

Ooph, PS, forgot to say - I'm that anonymous reviewer from Ch3 of Pete's World. Refound my LJ, as you can see! :D Now I just need to actually do something besides comment with it. ;)

[elisi]

See, this is what I'm telling people! I don't know if River and the Doctor are married. I don't think they are. But what does it MATTER? They ARE married, in every sense of the word (except, perhaps, legal, yeah?)
It's funny, because it's absolutely not important... and yet I WANT them to get married. Possibly in some hilarious, ridiculous way, but I still want it. Which is just not logical, but there you have it. *g*

They're airing season 4 right now over here... /grins/ Friday and next Monday they show Silence and Forest again. Will be the first time I see those episodes since TPO/TBB. You're right, it's going to mean SO much more.
My poor River!

And I'm probably going to glare at Alex Kingston for not acting the part quite right, except I can't really blame her, because at that point she doesn't know how to be River entirely, she's only just learning... /grins/
I'm sure it can be fanwanked as her being unsettled by Ten's awkwardness. *g*

Love this entire analysis.
*beams* Thank you!

River's relationship with the Doctor is just brilliant. I think part of what makes people fall in love is wanting to know them, and being continually surprised by them - at least, for the Doctor. He's so intellectual; it makes sense that curiosity would be a major part of that for him. (Well, it would be for me...) And it's incredible how the RiverxDoctor dynamic changes.
I'm reminded of his admission to Amy 'The girl who made no sense. How could I resist?' There's a fair bit of this re. River. Not that she doesn't make sense, but that we don't have all the puzzle pieces yet, and so we can't see the whole picture.

So we go to Eleven, and seriously, it's AMAZING. Their entire dynamic changes within ONE short adventure
LOVE all your points. Would quote them all, but it seems a bit silly to quote a whole comment back at you.

Next bit we have where she says she absolutely trusts him. I think that, for the Doctor, is remarkable. Really, really remarkable. People always rely on him, but TRUST him, so irrevocably, so completely? And still accept that yes, he IS a total madman, but that's what makes him so great? You're right, she understands him, that's what makes her special.
It's a pivotal moment, in hindsight. (Amy Pond, there's something you better understand about me, 'cause it's important and one day your life may depend on it. I am definitely a madman with a box! Here he understands that River gets this completely.)

And then we have the mess with the Angels plot distracting them much of the time, but they get through it, and if not for River, there'dn't be an Amy - she'd have died. She's good. Very, very good.
And she did it *against* his advice. That's important.

By the end, I think he's finally given up on trying to figure out how you label that relationship they have. Suddenly, he's not Mr. Grumpyface. He's smiling, teasing, maybe even a bit flirtatious.
Exactly! :)

It just amazes me how much, in ONE ADVENTURE, their dynamic changes. He goes from complete avoidance to insatiable curiosity, and their relationship becomes what it's going to be right before our eyes. It's kind of amazing. Just a bit. Hell, she hints that she killed the best man she's ever known - quite possibly him! - and he's only more intrigued!
MAGIC WRITING! MAGIC ACTING!

Really, it doesn't matter if they're legally married or not. They just are. They're closer than most people who are married. They dance around each other perfectly.
Indeed. (I love the dancing metaphor.)

And poor River, having to deal with Ten later/earlier, unable to teach him how to dance to her tune.
Well by the end he's begun to see what she's on about, but takes the Angel adventure for him to *understand*.

/grins/ Oh, next season will be FUN. Confirmed Amy and Rory, and confirmed River. And everything changes. (Still loving the Jack parallels; hope we see him later?) And we learn about the Silence... maybe. Might last more than one season. Loving this arc. Loving River.
All of this! :D

^.^ Done now. Thanks for the opportunity for River-speculation... Been meaning to get around to it for a while!
My pleasure!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Good essay!

Re: River's ending, though: not that this should have an impact on your Watsonian reading, but as far as I recall, in the audio commentary Moffat was open about having his cake and eating it there, to wit, you can believe that River died, and what is stored within CALs database is nothing but an echo of her neurological pattern, as River described it to Donna, which is what he personally believes because he doesn't believe in immortality of the soul, or you can believe it's the real, one and only River given survival in CAL's world, it's up to the viewer.

Speaking of Doylist perspectives: I always did have a problem with River (whether it's River or an echo of her) being given Donna's children in additon to CAL herself to care for, because she had not expressed any desire or inclination to mother anyone in the Library episodes, but within the s5 fairy tale/story telling metaphor, it works, you're right.

Speaking of endings/beginnings: what I find striking about River's death scene is also that she says "this means you've always known" to the Doctor, i.e. in any other encounter she had with him but this, he knew how and why she would die. Which really feeds into why I adher to the "young River will kill the Doctor (well, a regeneration of same) the first time she meets him from her pov" theory, because of the symmetry of their relationship; she, too, will then always know.

Re: the Doctor's motivation(s) - actually I don't think it has anything to do with Lonely-Godness, neither from Ten's nor from whichever future regeneration (because I don't think it will be Eleven) will give River the screwdriver's pov. As far as Ten is concerned, he knows she just died to save both the stored people and himself, the third person in that season (after Luke Rattigan and in as far as he knows Jenny) to do so, and her knowledge of his name, whatever the precise meaning to him of that is, definitely proves to him they will have a strong relationship; that and the screwdriver also means that his future self wants him to do something about that, other than mourning River and leaving. In a way, of course, it's the serious repetition of Moffat's Ten 'n Five spoof; Ten knows what to do because as Five, he saw himself do it; Future Regeneration Doctor knows at some point to give River the screwdriver because as Ten, he saw her have it.

...I do hope at some point, either with Eleven or Future Regeneration Doctor, River talks about her opinion on survival in the biggest library in the universe, or at the very least in an infinite virtual world, so we do get her opinion on that one, of course.

[elisi]

Good essay!
Thank you. :)

but as far as I recall, in the audio commentary Moffat was open about having his cake and eating it there, to wit, you can believe that River died, and what is stored within CALs database is nothing but an echo of her neurological pattern, as River described it to Donna, which is what he personally believes because he doesn't believe in immortality of the soul, or you can believe it's the real, one and only River given survival in CAL's world, it's up to the viewer.
Ah, that's a very good point. (And one I'd completely forgotten, so thank you!)

Speaking of Doylist perspectives: I always did have a problem with River (whether it's River or an echo of her) being given Donna's children in additon to CAL herself to care for, because she had not expressed any desire or inclination to mother anyone in the Library episodes, but within the s5 fairy tale/story telling metaphor, it works, you're right.
I'd forgotten the bedtime reading, to be honest, and was looking for a different quote when I saw it, and my jaw kinda dropped, because it actually *fit*. Like promethia_tenk says above, the Doctor and River have this vibe of 'Mum and Dad to the Universe' and looked at from that perspective River's ending makes a lot more sense. Also - stories, storytelling, the Doctor as the last story anyone will ever tell... I have WAY too many thoughts on this. (Look out for a behemoth of a post on The Big Bang/S5.)

Which really feeds into why I adher to the "young River will kill the Doctor (well, a regeneration of same) the first time she meets him from her pov" theory, because of the symmetry of their relationship; she, too, will then always know.
I love this theory so much that if Moffat *doesn't* go there I'll be deply disappointed. (Also, have you seen this rumour?) And there has to be a *reason* that she trusts him so completely, since the whole relationship rests on mutual trust.

Re: the Doctor's motivation(s) - actually I don't think it has anything to do with Lonely-Godness
Well, I put that in because - timey-wimey-ness apart - back then the need to save people was the overriding motivation we were presented with (esp, as you say after Luke and Jenny), but I always hoped that later regenerations would throw a different light on it.

...I do hope at some point, either with Eleven or Future Regeneration Doctor, River talks about her opinion on survival in the biggest library in the universe, or at the very least in an infinite virtual world, so we do get her opinion on that one, of course.
I really, really hope so! *crosses fingers*

[deird1]

Lovely, lovely meta...



When I first saw River, I thought she was intriguing, but that was about it.

...and then came 11 getting grumpy with her, and openly snarking at her, and then YELLING - and I loved it. And I finally got the appeal.

Anyone who the Doctor can be like that with is just... wonderful.

[elisi]

Lovely, lovely meta...
Thank you! :)

When I first saw River, I thought she was intriguing, but that was about it.
Yeah, sort of the same here. I was curious, but never thought we'd actually see her story...

...and then came 11 getting grumpy with her, and openly snarking at her, and then YELLING - and I loved it. And I finally got the appeal.
This! So much. I was sitting there going 'Oh. They're supposed to be snarky? Where do I sign up for shipping them?' ;)

Anyone who the Doctor can be like that with is just... wonderful.
*nods*

[sea_thoughts]

When River first said to Ten, "God, you're hard work when you're young", I thought she was being a bit harsh, given that he hadn't ever met her before. Then End of Time happened and I suddenly understood what she meant. *cough*

Because she certainly isn’t a saint, or an innocent. She lies, cheats and steals in order to get what she wants or needs

Agreed. This is what I like about River - she's not MEANT to be all that likeable. But you could EQUALLY apply those terms to the Doctor. He is not a saint or an innocent, he will lie, steal ('borrow') and even cheat on occasion (I'm thinking in particular of the Seventh Doctor, who was a real Chessmaster when he wanted to be). It's just that he does at least acknowledge morality whereas River would far rather be upfront about her immorality and just get where she needs to go.

[elisi]

When River first said to Ten, "God, you're hard work when you're young", I thought she was being a bit harsh, given that he hadn't ever met her before. Then End of Time happened and I suddenly understood what she meant. *cough*
*tries to keep straight face* Um. But really, I think that Donna's loss is what started the proper downwards spiral, all of it culminating in his death, which brought us Eleven's maturity. And personally River's remark made me desperately curious about what the Doctor would be like when older. When the first pictures of her on set came out I squee'd loudly! :)

Agreed. This is what I like about River - she's not MEANT to be all that likeable. But you could EQUALLY apply those terms to the Doctor.
*nods a lot* Which is why I think she's such a good match - he needs someone like that, rather than some 'good and pure' to 'save' him. (Dislike that trope unless it's done very very well.)

It's just that he does at least acknowledge morality whereas River would far rather be upfront about her immorality and just get where she needs to go.
M-hm! :)

[arwen-elen.livejournal.com]

"I remember listening to the podcast for the Library episodes, and Moffat saying how when she whispers the Doctor’s name to him, he is, at that moment, reduced to just a man, without any of the fancy spectacles or titles he usually hides behind. But, I think (hope) this will go both ways, once we discover who River actually is, and what she is to the Doctor."

This struck a chord, cos the Doctor really is just a man with two hearts and River sees past all the front to the man within.

The bit at the end about the stories - the Doctor and River and the different quotes you used - really throws up how romantic, brilliant and amazing the Moff is at the heart of everything he writes. I think a lot of the stuff he writes is flawed sometimes, compared to what he used to back in RTD's day, and I think a lot of the problem is he has so many brilliant ideas, plots, people; there's too many and he crams stuff into too small a space. But the stuff he writes, like the stories quotes: “That's okay, we're all stories in the end. Just make it a good one, eh? 'Cause it was, you know. It was the best. A daft old man who stole a magic box and ran away.” They're just beautiful, beautiful.

[elisi]

This struck a chord, cos the Doctor really is just a man with two hearts and River sees past all the front to the man within.
I think this is one of the reasons I love them so. I have a huge kink/fondness for couples that see each other clearly.

The bit at the end about the stories - the Doctor and River and the different quotes you used - really throws up how romantic, brilliant and amazing the Moff is at the heart of everything he writes.
And, interestingly, it gets more tragic the happier it gets. Oh it's all back to front...

I think a lot of the stuff he writes is flawed sometimes, compared to what he used to back in RTD's day, and I think a lot of the problem is he has so many brilliant ideas, plots, people; there's too many and he crams stuff into too small a space.
Um, that's why I love it. There are just endless layers to dig through. *happy sigh* (also see the quote on my info page)

But the stuff he writes, like the stories quotes: “That's okay, we're all stories in the end. Just make it a good one, eh? 'Cause it was, you know. It was the best. A daft old man who stole a magic box and ran away.” They're just beautiful, beautiful.
They really, really are. ♥

[lonewytch.livejournal.com]

Love this. You managed to call loads of stuff that actually does happen, like:
“Oh Doctor, why do I ever let you out?” she sighs in ‘The Pandorica Opens’ when seeing Amy’s room, and that one little sentence tells us so much. She can see the wonder of him, but knows the danger of falling for it

She herself is captured by the wonder of him - ultimately it overcomes her brainwashing - she becomes a giver of life instead of a taker of life- and all for the wonder of the Doctor. And yet she does really know the danger of him - her childhood is the legacy of that.

I foresee a lot clashes, and (hopefully) a lot of the Doctor being called on his (sometime) hypocrisy. After all, he was deemed the most dangerous creature in all of the universe...
And of course this is precisely what we see at the end of AGMGTW. And she has more reason to call him on it than anyone. Yet she sees him clealry - there's no blame in her for her stolen childhood. She can speak as she does to him at the end of AGMGTW because it comes from a place of love, not from malice.

“Did you dance?” he hears her say, and he stops, smiling.
And like you say near the start of your post, there is this feeling of a dance going on between them in every meeting after SitL. The back and forth of it, the way they weigh each other up, skirt around, bat back and forth.


River: Sweet dreams, everyone.
She is almost looking straight at the camera as she says this, breaking the fourth wall she is the storyteller of the Doctor's life - just as she narrates the poem in AGMGTW, and narrates the tale of what he has become at the end of it.

We have seen the beginning and the end, and what we need to see now is the inbetween. :)

[elisi]

Love this. You managed to call loads of stuff that actually does happen
Thank you! :) I think what I'm good at is seeing patterns? I saw the pattern they fell into, and projected along those lines.

She herself is captured by the wonder of him - ultimately it overcomes her brainwashing - she becomes a giver of life instead of a taker of life- and all for the wonder of the Doctor. And yet she does really know the danger of him - her childhood is the legacy of that.
Also my bullet-proof kink is couples who see each other clearly, and yet love each other.

And of course this is precisely what we see at the end of AGMGTW. And she has more reason to call him on it than anyone. Yet she sees him clealry - there's no blame in her for her stolen childhood. She can speak as she does to him at the end of AGMGTW because it comes from a place of love, not from malice.
*nods a lot* And I love the fact that it's when she does her dressing down that he demands to know who she is. Who are you to speak to me this way? is essentially what he says, and then she reveals that she has every right to hold him accountable. I love it.

And like you say near the start of your post, there is this feeling of a dance going on between them in every meeting after SitL. The back and forth of it, the way they weigh each other up, skirt around, bat back and forth.
There can never be too many dancing metaphors.

She is almost looking straight at the camera as she says this, breaking the fourth wall she is the storyteller of the Doctor's life - just as she narrates the poem in AGMGTW, and narrates the tale of what he has become at the end of it.
I really, really, really adore her role. Always with one foot in the realm of the story teller. It's incredible.

We have seen the beginning and the end, and what we need to see now is the inbetween. :)
I have a fic which uses almost EXACTLY that phrase. :)