elisi | Important rec.

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Important rec.

bewarethespork wrote an absolutely must-read post about Amy and [a section of] fandom's reaction to her.

Spoilers for everything up to and including 'Cold Blood', so don't spoil yourself! Money quotes:

You know the problem with Amy Pond? Her problem is that she's a strong woman in a society that actively hates and tries to tear down strong women. Her problem is that she is smart and capable, and yes, pretty damn sexy. Her problem is that she looks comfortable in her short skirts and her manicured nails. Her problem is that she knows what she wants and goes after it in a world where only men are allowed to do that.

Her problem is that she delivers on something that a lot of people claim to want - strong women in their entertainment media.

[...]

Amy Pond is a woman who feels comfortable about her sexuality and her attractiveness, both things that are *independent* of male perception. She is also clever and inquisitive and capable - again, independently of male perception.

[...]

being confident about your attractiveness is not a crime. No, not even if you're female. No, not even if you're also smart. No, not even if you choose to express that confidence with miniskirts and manicures. No, not even if it's someone you don't like.

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Hi,

all of which is why I like Pink, as artist, singet/songwriter; woman and human being. She stands up for who she is, and what she is, and she's also a termendous song interpreter, as per this live performance of the song made famous by Janis Joplin, Me and Bobby Mc Gee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da-V8V0kSj0

Now I never thought I'd find a version I liked better than Janis', but this definitely fits the bill. Now there's no doubt that Janis' is far more powerful and heartbreaking, but even though there's still a melancholic edge to Pink's interpretation, it has a much more positively defiant edge to it.

"Can't cope with me being me? Well tough! I ain't changin' for you. You knew who I was, so deal with it."

She, and the character she's portraying, are comfortable with themselves and their sexual identity. Janis was never, ever, comfortable with hers, whether, or not, she was bisexual.

I also like, as people, for many of the same reasons, Madonna & Lady Gaga, thought I ain't no fan of their music (most of the time). They are perfectly comfortable with themselves in the same way as Pink and, given the comments in your post, Amy Pond.

Even though I've only, as yet, seen her first episode, she would, I feel, see all three as personal icons.

Still under Willow & Tara's spell,
Ray.

I'm a bit behind and don't want to spoil myself, so I won't read this yet, but I'm loving the bits you posted here and I'm addingthis to my memories to check out later!

Amy Pond rocks and a certain section of fandom needs to be resoundingly ignored for the petty, scared, insecure, probably small penised bastards that they are.

That was a great bit of positive meta about Amy, thanks for the link.

Amy is awesome and I adore her.

That was a great bit of positive meta about Amy, thanks for the link.
Totally my pleasure!

Amy is awesome and I adore her.
Same here. She's flawed, of course, but that's what makes her interesting! :D

Sadly, in this case, it's women who are doing the hatin' and the tearing down... :(

It is absolutely awesome, and you'll love it, once you're all caught up!

(And actually, this is all rather interesting in the light of s8, because here is a sexy character whose clothes reflect who she is, rather than what men would like to see her wear...)

I am not overly familiar with Pink, but from what I've see she seems very unapologetic. Much like Madonna, as you say - Madonna who always owned and used her sexuality. (My best friend when I was a teenager was a HUGE Madonna fan, so I knew her very well back then. And - although not always agreeing with her choices, I loved that she was never afraid to be herself.)

Even though I've only, as yet, seen her first episode, she would, I feel, see all three as personal icons.
That's a good point. Also I'm very pleased that you're watching the new series - I hope you'll end up enjoying it enough to keep watching. :)

I'm all for sexually confident female characters, but I have to say that I have trouble agreeing that "Amy Pond is a woman who feels comfortable about her sexuality and her attractiveness, both things that are *independent* of male perception." Sure, in an ideal world, we'd all feel attractive and desirable, no matter what anyone else thought of us, but in the world we actually live in, a straight woman's degree of comfort with her sexuality is high dependent on male perception - if every man Amy ever came on to turned away in disgust, she'd pretty soon lose all that confidence in her sexuality.

Miniskirts and manicures are complicated territory.

if every man Amy ever came on to turned away in disgust, she'd pretty soon lose all that confidence in her sexuality.
This is a good point, and certainly valid. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the wank/kerfuffle in question (because you're slightly at cross purposes here), but a lot of it was about putting Amy down for the way she dressed ('clearly she is a slut, just look at those skirts!'). So yes, there is definitely a point to be made about Amy's outfits and the male gaze and the society we live in. However, Amy wears the clothes she wears because she likes them (look at early Buffy, and we see the same thing), and (I should wager) because she knows she looks good in them. And as a very attractive young woman, who can blame her? (Apparently, lots of other women. This is what makes it so sad.)

Miniskirts and manicures are complicated territory.
No kidding. But they're not a valid excuse to tear down a perfectly good and interestingly flawed character. Should we worry about sexism in society? Absolutely. Does that make Amy a bad person for wearing tiny skirts? No. (Incidentally, the wardrobe people wanted to put Amy in trousers, what with all the running, but Karen Gillan - who plays Amy - thought that Amy was definitely a miniskirt girl.)

I feel I waffled awfully here. Sorry.

Then replace small penised with jealous.

*snerk*

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the wank/kerfuffle in question

It's surprisingly hard to avoid, even if you don't - like me - watch DW... I have no dog in this race, but I do think that associating part of your argument with a claim that is demonstrably false isn't a terribly good tactic.

Amy wears the clothes she wears because she likes them

Sure, but why does she like them? (not just Amy, why does anyone like weraing miniskirts?). We all ought to know by now that the personal is political and that there's no such thing as a value-free preference, especially when it comes to clothing. And it's all rendered more complicated by that thorny issue of male sexual approval - exactly as it is with Buffy, whose wardrobe is frankly ridiculous given what her income is supposed to be. The decision to dress Buffy that way has everything to do with what the audience is assumed to want to see. Saying she "wears those clothes because she likes them" as if there were nothing more to it than that, oversimplifies things drastically.

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I'm not sure if you're familiar with the wank/kerfuffle in question

It's surprisingly hard to avoid, even if you don't - like me - watch DW... I have no dog in this race, but I do think that associating part of your argument with a claim that is demonstrably false isn't a terribly good tactic.

Amy wears the clothes she wears because she likes them

Sure, but why does she like them? (not just Amy, why does anyone like weraing miniskirts?). We all ought to know by now that the personal is political and that there's no such thing as a value-free preference, especially when it comes to clothing. And it's all rendered more complicated by that thorny issue of male sexual approval - exactly as it is with Buffy, whose wardrobe is frankly ridiculous given what her income is supposed to be. The decision to dress Buffy that way has everything to do with what the audience is assumed to want to see. Saying she "wears those clothes because she likes them" as if there were nothing more to it than that, oversimplifies things drastically.

<i.Does that make Amy a bad person for wearing tiny skirts? No. 

I totally agree. But I also think that people who claim that the ONLY reason an attractive female character on TV wears tiny skirts is "because she likes them" are being either naive or else disingenuous.

Just to make it clear, "you" in the above badly formatted comment means "people in general", not "you in particular".

It's surprisingly hard to avoid, even if you don't - like me - watch DW...
Oh I'm not surprised at all... Someone throws a stone in a pond and the ripples go far and wide.

Saying she "wears those clothes because she likes them" as if there were nothing more to it than that, oversimplifies things drastically.
Very true. And people should definitely talk about it, because of the male gaze that is so deeply woven into our culture that it is very, very hard to notice, or avoid. But... *ponders* I don't think that Amy is particularly aware of the objectification inherent in clothing. She is pretty, and she likes to be in-your-face, so these are the clothes she chooses to wear. (And they are perfectly normal for girls her age.)

Really it is two arguments - one, about what clothes mean culturally etc, and another one about what Amy's clothes say about her. Being uncomfortable with the way fashion objectifies women is something that should definitely be addressed. Judging Amy on her clothes is something very different.

Also, this article is v. interesting when thinking about all this.

Thank you, that is how I read it! :)

Whew! I was afraid I'd come across as rather rude and spoiling for a fight!

Being uncomfortable with the way fashion objectifies women is something that should definitely be addressed. Judging Amy on her clothes is something very different.

But where the two intersect is that Amy isn't a real person, she's a created character (created, in part, by men, for an audience that is composed, in part, of men). The way the character is dressed isn't a matter - as it would be with a real woman - of a whole complex of psychological factors but of a set of much more conscious and deliberate decisions (of which the actress's - entirely legitimate - sense that the character is "a mini skirt sort of girl" is only one among many).

And now I'll go and read that article you linked to...

Well you do have a history of insulting people at the drop of a hat... ;)

(Also this subject is a total minefield, and tricky at the best of times. No wonder people are kerfuffling...)

But where the two intersect is that Amy isn't a real person, she's a created character (created, in part, by men, for an audience that is composed, in part, of men).
Hmmmmm. Well Doctor Who is, on the whole, a children's/family show. The tabloids have been after Amy for months and months for dressing 'too provocatively' for the audience, so the miniskirts are generally not the big bonus you'd expect.

The way the character is dressed isn't a matter - as it would be with a real woman - of a whole complex of psychological factors but of a set of much more conscious and deliberate decisions (of which the actress's - entirely legitimate - sense that the character is "a mini skirt sort of girl" is only one among many).
Well I think that created characters also have complex psychological factors - Amy in particular. She's very confident and in-your-face, and her outfits are part of that. She's also very damaged, but tries to hide it, partly with her choice of clothes.

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