elisi: (Blue Ten/Rose by heartoutofstone)
elisi ([personal profile] elisi) wrote2010-05-15 02:43 pm
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Your DW meta rec for the day!

Rose Tyler, lesbian in denial?

Seriously, go read it. I'm not usually one for theories like this (you can cut the Buffy/Faith UST with a knife, but I don't think Buffy would ever go there), but this one actually makes sense to me, and makes S2 far less annoying in the process!

(Also, WHY is LJ not giving me my comments? *stab*)
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ext_15284: a wreath of lightning against a dark, stormy sky (weeping-angel)

[identity profile] stormwreath.livejournal.com 2010-05-15 02:53 pm (UTC)(link)
you can cut the Buffy/Faith UST with a knife, but I don't think Buffy would ever go there

Maybe not (or maybe she would?); but I'll say one thing; you could read fan-eunice's essay and susbstitute "Willow" for "Rose" and "Oz" for "The Doctor" and it would fit perfectly...
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (Amy/11 ~awkward~ by meathiel)

[personal profile] elisi 2010-05-15 03:06 pm (UTC)(link)
Maybe not (or maybe she would?)
This is of course where things get complicated and subjective. I can't see Spike/Xander happening either (like, ever, at all) but lots of people love it...

you could read fan-eunice's essay and susbstitute "Willow" for "Rose" and "Oz" for "The Doctor" and it would fit perfectly...
Oooh, interesting thought.
rahirah: (Default)

[personal profile] rahirah 2010-05-15 03:10 pm (UTC)(link)
Except for the part where Willow and Oz actually had one of the most functional relationships on the show for several years...

elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (It's a good fandom by killmebecomeme)

[personal profile] elisi 2010-05-15 03:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Ah, very true. :)

ETA: Well apart from the time he cheated on her, and the fact that if she makes him angry he tries to kill people... But comparatively? Oh yes.
Edited 2010-05-15 16:14 (UTC)
ext_15284: a wreath of lightning against a dark, stormy sky (Default)

[identity profile] stormwreath.livejournal.com 2010-05-15 05:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Just like Rose and the Doctor did.

(Anonymous) 2010-05-16 03:30 am (UTC)(link)
The last time I checked, Rose's relationship with the Doctor was not an overtly sexual or romantic relationship. The OP used then as an example of a lesbian in denial pining for a guy she could never have. You compared that relationship to Willow and Oz.

Willow was not pining after Oz; she had him, at least until the inevitable Jossian breakup. Later on, when she had to choose beteeen Oz and Tara, she chose Tara mainly because Tara was there for her, and Oz hadn't been - not because she couldn't bear the idea of his nasty peepee invading her girly bits again.

Later yet, Willow decides that she identifies as a lesbian. Yay Willow! But identifying as a lesbian does not invalidate her prior relationship to Oz, or mean it was nothing but a symptom of her denial.

Honestly, I can't see any comparison between Doctor/Rose and Oz?Willow except that people who ship the characters with someone else would like them very much to go away. :P
ext_15284: a wreath of lightning against a dark, stormy sky (Default)

[identity profile] stormwreath.livejournal.com 2010-05-16 12:39 pm (UTC)(link)
This was in the post elisi linked to:

If you just wanted to prove to yourself that, yes, you do SO like boys that way, and there just happens to be a boy shaped alien who will never ask you to follow through on it, that'd do it.

No, it's not an exact comparison, because Oz and Willow did sleep together... eventually. But what are the key moments of their developing romance? What was the point Willow decided that Oz was the guy for her? When he turned her down and said he wasn't interested in any sort of physical relationship right there and then.

In 'What's My Line' when he refused to make out with her because it would be for the wong reasons. In 'Amends' where he refused to have sex with her because, again, it would be for the wrong reasons. No, Oz isn't completely asexual: but he's definitely someone who "will never ask you to follow through on it", and it doesn't seem at all implausible that that was part of his attraction for Willow, just as the linked post suggests it was for Rose.

The other part fits too. "he is into cuddling and hand holding", as the linked post says - and for Willow and Oz, I think we can add "Talking together about intellectual stuff all night". Furthermore, for Willow the perpetual wallflower, the fact that she can now go around saying with great pride that she officially now Has A Boyfriend - and furthermore, one who plays lead guitar in a band - is of immense social importance to her. She's normal, she really is: look! Boyfriend!

None of which is meant to say that Willow's feelings for Oz weren't strong and genuine. Of course they were. The question is what sort of feelings they were. "There's something between [Tara and me]. It wasn't something I was looking for. It's just powerful. And it's totally different from what Oz and I have."


[identity profile] zanthinegirl.livejournal.com 2010-05-15 11:11 pm (UTC)(link)
BTW that's a great icon!
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (Amy/11 ~awkward~ by meathiel)

[personal profile] elisi 2010-05-15 11:14 pm (UTC)(link)
It's by [livejournal.com profile] meathiel (she had loads) and I needed to have it. That scene just cracked me up completely, partly because of the Doctor's contortions. :)
rahirah: (Default)

[personal profile] rahirah 2010-05-15 03:13 pm (UTC)(link)
There are a number of characters I might tap for potential femslash, but Rose really, really isn't one of them.
elisi: (Blue Ten/Rose by heartoutofstone)

[personal profile] elisi 2010-05-15 03:41 pm (UTC)(link)
It's not something I'd ever considered, and I'm not going to run out and look for fic (femslash isn't my thing), but it'd make S2 much more palatable to me.

[identity profile] infinitewhale.livejournal.com 2010-05-15 03:19 pm (UTC)(link)

I'm one of the few people who didn't see any UST in Buffy and Faith from Buffy's point of view. It's all pretty one-sided to me.
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (Buffy Anne Summers by thesuthernangel)

[personal profile] elisi 2010-05-15 03:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Same here. Buffy is very, very straight - but she and Faith obviously had a very strong bond, so it's easy to see where the subtext comes from.

[identity profile] gamiila.livejournal.com 2010-05-15 03:37 pm (UTC)(link)
(Also, WHY is LJ not giving me my comments? *stab*)

I think it may be in a strop of some kind. It's not giving me mine, either.
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (believe by buttersideup.)

[personal profile] elisi 2010-05-15 03:44 pm (UTC)(link)
*kicks LJ*

Also I saw your post, and will keep my fingers crossed! :)

[identity profile] gamiila.livejournal.com 2010-05-15 07:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Thanks!

[identity profile] zanthinegirl.livejournal.com 2010-05-15 05:09 pm (UTC)(link)
You know I'm so not a slasher, but even I can see the Buffy/Faith UST. And the Angel/Spike whatever-the-hell. 'Cause there was that one time... But I just don't see Rose that way. Maybe this is because unlike most of fandom I really actually like Rose, and think season 2 is great. I think she and Ten are adorable, and it's obviously to me that they love each other.

Maybe I'm just slash-blind, but I really don't see a lot of fem-slash vibes in DW.

Now, Doctor/Simm!Master on the other hand...

[identity profile] lostakasha.livejournal.com 2010-05-15 05:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Hi...just butting in to say that my slash goggles are very odd as a general rule. I do slash pairings, but they're not typical. (And I've always felt that the Doctor and Master were "twin sons of different mothers" and simply can't slash them. I'm probably the only one on the planet!)

Maybe I'm way off track, but I think that because every woman on DW is laser focused on the Doctor, there's no room for them to focus on each other. When they're all in the same room together they're busy saving the universe -- the only one who has time to flirt is Jack!

and to dear [livejournal.com profile] elisi sorry -- don't meant to hijack your thread!

[identity profile] zanthinegirl.livejournal.com 2010-05-15 11:13 pm (UTC)(link)
I think that because every woman on DW is laser focused on the Doctor, there's no room for them to focus on each other. When they're all in the same room together they're busy saving the universe -- the only one who has time to flirt is Jack!

Oh, that is so true! And excellent point.
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (The Last (Master) by lidi)

[personal profile] elisi 2010-05-17 08:54 am (UTC)(link)
Maybe this is because unlike most of fandom I really actually like Rose, and think season 2 is great.
I like Rose!!! I like her lots and lots and lots. And I don't really see femslash vibes either, to be honest, I just like the theory. Even though I ship Rose/TenToo... Can't explain it, but somehow the theory just works.

Now, Doctor/Simm!Master on the other hand...
I believe the words 'laying it on with a trowel' are appropriate there... *g*

[identity profile] lostakasha.livejournal.com 2010-05-15 05:23 pm (UTC)(link)
And what a meta rec it was! Now I'm looking at Rose in a completely new way, and, erm, I really like it.
elisi: (Blue Ten/Rose by heartoutofstone)

[personal profile] elisi 2010-05-17 08:54 am (UTC)(link)
LOL! Totally my pleasure. :)
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