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Torchwood meta: Jack/Ianto + thoughts on 'Adam'.
First of all a disclaimer of sorts. Because Torchwood is Torchwood. This is the show that made mpreg canon within the first 5 minutes of the pilot and featured alien sex pollen in ep. 2 (OK, so they never called it that, but...). It is stupid to try to measure it up against other shows (*cough*Buffy*cough*), because that will inevitably lead to heartbreak every time. Torchwood is over the top, too angsty by half, every character is bi- or omnisexual, and the whole thing is so crack-tastic the screen might melt. So that is where I'm coming from now - I try to judge the show on its own terms, because I think it's worth my while to watch it. The writers might not be able to do subtle, but they *do* know what they're doing and where they're going. (I even want to re-watch S1. Seriously.)
And now onto the canon slash... with some thoughts on 'Adam' tacked on at the end. Because this show makes me *think*, and that is what I love.
I've been pondering the pretty boys recently, and thinking back I'm fairly sure that I've always shipped them - more or less.
You see, they were *interesting* and pretty and thus became my OTP. However, post-'To The Last Man' the thing entered a whole new level and my entire focus when watching Torchwood has now shifted. That doesn't mean that I like the rest less, quite the opposite in fact. Because of my obsession with our two boys I am now far more invested in the show than before.
Anyway - let's get back to the beginning.
First of all, it pleases me no end that Jack/Ianto is hinted at in the first ep:
Jack: And this is Ianto Jones. Ianto cleans up after us and gets us everywhere on time.
Ianto: I try my best.
Jack: And he looks good in a suit.
Ianto: Careful, that's harassment, sir.
And Jack's expression is such a 'wouldn't mind a piece of that' that it just makes me laugh. Not that I noticed back then, I think, but I certainly liked Ianto and his role, and could definitely see the slashy potential. Then of course came 'Cyberwoman' which appeared to destroy any hope of Jack & Ianto getting together (although Jack *did* French-kiss Ianto back to life, so...), as well as Ianto's character. (Will get back to that, but at the time I was very cross indeed.)
Also I was just now struck by the 'gets us everywhere on time' - timekeeping is [part of] his job. Hmmm. This ties in beautifully with the stopwatch of course, but also that he is the one who remembers, the one who keeps records etc. I like it.
Now I know a lot of people found it hard to see how Ianto could be screaming at Jack that he was a monster in one episode, and then chatting him up a few weeks later (months? Not sure about the TW timeline in S1). Anyway, writing this meta I looked through old posts of mine, and this is what I had to say about Ianto in Countrycide (and please note that I *hadn't* seen the first 10 minutes of the ep and thus missed the talk mentioning Lisa & the significant looks that followed!):
- Ianto. Why is he there? I mean he appears to hate everything, so why hasn't he left? I'm sincerely hoping they're going to give him some sort of reason for hanging around - because currently he's just annoying me. He's obviously 'the outsider', doing a bit of 'telling, not showing' when the need arises. Please, please let him have a crush on Jack...
And lo and behold my prayers were answered a few episodes later! But what I find interesting with hindsight is the fact that I thought that Jack/Ianto would not be at all illogical, I just worried that they wouldn't go there. (Die-hard Spuffy & Spangel 'shipper here, I am used to my OTPs having feelings that are 'intense, but changeable'.) Thankfully though, the writers did have a plan - maybe they have more of a brain that I give them credit for. (And apparently I see every character on TW as bisexual. Guess it's Jack who does it...)
Anyway, I still think that the Stopwatch scene is one of the most awesome things ever. It was one of those that made me go 'Wait - hold on - did Ianto just say what I thought he said???'
I *love* stuff like that. It just flipped everything upside down in the most wonderful way. And speaking of crediting the writers, then just after 'Cyberwoman' we got 'Small Worlds' - the ep with the [evil] faires where
a) Jack loses a woman he loved.
b) Jack is again ruthless, doing what has to be done despite the intense misery he causes.
I think Ianto (being very observant) would notice these things. (How much do I love that he keeps a Diary? Entirely too much. The Watcher parallels just keep coming.)
ETA: Ha! I am right. According to The Captain's Blog on the BBCA site. Ianto is the only one not around for the fairy incident, and thus misses the impact:
Other Staff issues: After what happened with Jasmine, nobody is talking to me (except Ianto).
Still, why does Ianto hit on Jack? I don't know. And this is what I like about it. I can think of a dozen reasons off the top of my head, but I don't know which ones are correct... and that, to me, is what makes it real. It is messed up, and fairly unhealthy, but it is also two people seeking solace, I think.
Also, there's the fact that Ianto's crush is clearly not invisible to the rest:
OWEN: Don't compare yourself to me. You're just a tea boy.
IANTO: I'm much more than that. Jack needs me.
OWEN: In your dreams, Ianto. In your sad wet dreams when you're his part-time shag, maybe.
'End of Days'
And what does Ianto mean? Is it just the fact that he really *is* Jack's 'part-time shag', even though Owen doesn't know it? (Or does he know? Do the others know, back in S1? I can't tell. Owen's line can be read both ways. *is frustrated*)
But - let's get back to 'Cyberwoman' and the way Ianto lashes out at Jack.
IANTO: I won't do it. You can't make me. You like to think you're a hero. But you're the biggest monster of all.
Love and hate run close together, and the sort of full-on, no holds barred bust-up between Jack and Ianto can definitely be seen in a positive light. Look at Spike and Buffy in 'Get it Done', or Spike and Angel in 'Destiny' (please tell me that that fight means that they hate each other 4eva and then I shall laugh at you for the rest of the week! *g*) - or, this is actually an even better example, look at Buffy and Xander in 'Selfless' (which is slight sacrilege since that episode is close to genius and 'Cyberwoman'... isn't) - anyway, the hero is off to kill her friend's [evil] girlfriend, and my goodness they rip into each other... The reason they're both so angry that they care about each other and both feel betrayed.
We see Ianto chiding Jack for never asking him about his personal life - but this is *Torchwood*, no one ever asks. But the fact that Ianto is hurt by it, shows that he cares about what Jack thinks, and wants him to be interested. (Maybe. It's one way of looking at it. See what I mean about looking at the show through 'shipper glasses?)
Anyway, I think Ianto does a lot of soul searching after what happened. I think he realises that Jack was right. That Lisa wasn't human anymore.
And as for sleeping with him - well I'm a Spuffy fan:
BUFFY: He's everything I hate. He's everything that ... I'm supposed to be against. But the only time that I ever feel anything is when...
Of course Ianto isn't Buffy. Really, really isn't. He doesn't fall into Jack's bed in a fit of passion - no, he carefully plans it. And I don't think he *hates* Jack, I think his feelings are a lot more complex than that (not that Buffy's feelings for Spike aren't complex of course). GDL apparently said in an interview that Jack was Ianto's 'Lover, parent and guardian' which is nicely messed up.
Anyway, I think it is very significant that it's Ianto who initiates things. Maybe its his way of letting Jack know that he's forgiven him? Maybe it's a way of acknowledging that he really is attracted to Jack? Maybe it's a way of wielding some power over Jack, since Ianto knows that Jack fancies him? Maybe it's just reaching out to someone he knows understands?
Still, I think Jack is being honest when he tells the real Capt. Jack that 'there's no-one'. Because he is still hurting (/traumatised) by being abandoned by the Doctor, and by not understanding why he is the way he is. He is quite simply unable to move on because the past still has such a grip on him.
But then we get his crossover into Doctor Who, and not only are his questions answered, but he also gets to spend an entire year as a prisoner, with ample time to ponder his life and his choices.
And in the end he chooses Torchwood - and Ianto (and Gwen).
Ianto: Are you going back to him?
Jack: I came back for you.
[dies. iz ded. comes back to life to see Jack backtrack. bother.]
I love that the first time they're alone together he asks for a date. (Rather awkwardly - I doubt he's actually ever asked anyone on an actual date before.)
Anyway, this all made me very happy. But then came *that* scene in 'To The Last Man'. It's short (just like the stopwatch one), but it left me with the same slightly slack-jawed expression on my face. 'Did Jack just say what I thought he said???'
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fodian has done a frame-by-frame, sentence-by-sentence run-through of the scene that you should all go read, because she says pretty much exactly what I'd say. So much going on underneath. So many layers. So many kinks hit simultaneously.
Although to be honest I'm not that bothered about the kiss. They could have cut it after 2 seconds and it'd have been fine by me - because the kiss was just the end, the conclusion, the consequence of what was said. Like Jack's 'See you in my office in 10 minutes'. It's the stuff before that's important. Because suddenly my messed up 'ship turned into a love story. And that heavy thud? Was me falling. The thing is that when it comes to ships, I'm not really one for love-at-first-sight-made-for-each-other couples. Don't get me wrong, Buffy/Angel break my heart, and Doctor/Rose are too adorable for words. But what makes *me* tick is the ship where it's *not* love (alone) that brings the characters together - where there is more at work than just hormones or being 'soulmates'. As I said to Kathy a little while ago:
The way Ianto is always there in the background, the way Jack instinctively turns to him, the way they watch each other... Just watch me drown.
(On the other hand, when a couple like that *do* admit to feelings it kills me.)
*happy sigh*
Then came 'Meat', which threw me again. Partly the Gwen stuff, because apparently they really are going for the Jack/Gwen/Rhys love triangle, which of course works wonderfully and gives everyone copious amounts of angst to deal with. It doesn't really worry me from my Jack/Ianto shipping POV though, since I'm sure that if Jack could he'd settle down in a happy threesome.But that wasn't the big surprise - no, it was that Jack & Ianto are keeping their relationship a secret! 'How? Why?' I asked, utterly thrown. First of all there's the fact that Jack kissed Ianto when he came back to life at the end of 'End of Days'. Didn't anybody notice? (OK, so Jack is Jack, but still...) Also they're actually dating now, not just having co-dependent sex (or whatever), and Jack has even told Ianto how he feels - so why?
Now, don't think I disapprove of this state of affairs. Oh no. It makes things so much more interesting. And we'll get some sort of 'revelation scene' at some point, and I love those.
In the meantime though, I can't help but wonder... why? I don't think it's Jack wanting to keep Ianto 'hidden', because I can't see him being 'ashamed' of their relationship in any way. Maybe they just want to keep it private and personal? I can definitely see Ianto as someone who enjoys having secrets - and Jack as not wanting to have his feelings publicly scrutinised.
And really, it isn't anybody else's business what they do in their spare time. I can totally see them being all manly and not wanting anyone to know.
ETA:tencrush has provided an excellent - and beautifully logical - explanation here :)
Stupid show. Apparently it was just Tosh being oblivious. Ah well. It means that we really *can* imagine that Gwen & Ianto have fun talking about Jack's manners in bed! :)
I have seen people wondering what Jack sees in Ianto - apart from the obvious, of course. Now I like that there's not some big reason, no heroic act or obvious thing to point to. It makes it more tangible to me, grounds it in reality, which is a good thing in a 'verse where there is so much stuff that is larger than life. Because in so many ways love is about the little things - those tiny little personal quirks that make someone special and different from everyone else: Like wearing a napkin for eating pizza, like always carrying a stopwatch (and using said item for hitting on someone), like always wearing a suit to work, even though the job doesn't require it, like always making the coffee just right, and so on. (Gwen's love for Rhys proves this point beautifully btw.)
But I also had a hunch, and 'Adam' confirmed that, in as much as it ever will be. Why is Jack drawn to Ianto? Because he couldn't kill Lisa - because it is not in his nature to be a killer. Oh he can dole out violence if necessary, cause he's *certainly* not a wimp in any way (as we have seen time and again). But I think it's significant that the long teaser in 'Kiss Kiss Bang Bang' ended with Ianto hesitating whilst the Blowfish taunted him. And then Jack shot it - Jack who's the eternal soldier, and has far too much blood on his hands. "You always remember who you've killed - don't you Jack?" Adam asks, and Jack knows it is true. (What a line, by the way. Wonderful!)
Also look at Jack's past, and his former partners (using the word in its loosest term):
John, who is a mirror of Jack - living a life without meaning (but having fun!), and where killing people is rather regrettable, but nothing more. (+ countless partners who just provided good sex.)
The Doctor, who of course changed Jack and gave him a purpose ('If you can't do something smart, do something right!'). But the Doctor isn't an untainted hero - the Doctor can be ruthless and vengeful, and the Doctor will do whatever it takes to win, if necessary.
And then we have Ianto... is it any wonder that Jack is drawn to Ianto, who refuses to kill his girlfriend, even with a gun to his head? Who (foolishly) tries to see humanity where there's none? We see the same thing with Gwen, Jack's other love - the woman who always tries to connect to the human aspect of any situation. (Working with TW is changing her, as we see, but that's a different topic. My point is that there is a definite logic to who Jack falls for, and why.)
I know 'Adam' wasn't the greatest of episodes, but I loved what it did - especially with Ianto, and Jack and Ianto. Because it was 'the tea-boy' who first rumbled Adam, the 'Watcher', the one with the diary. The one who notices things others do not. It is *so* perfect. And then Adam took his revenge. There were several reasons for this: To show that Adam was *evil* (and not just misguided or 'alien' or whatever), and to set up the Jack/Ianto scene, which is the heart of the episode I think.
The word 'mind-rape' gets thrown around a lot in the Buffy-fandom, but it usually means a removal of memories, which is what Adam does initially: By inserting himself he cancels out whatever defines the characters - what they hold most dear, or what has scarred them most: For Gwen it's Rhys, for Owen his mother (or rather her abuse), for Tosh her isolation and love of maths, and for Ianto Lisa - and what followed (I don't *think* Jack and Ianto are lovers in the Adam-verse). But what Adam goes on to do to Ianto might actually fit better with the term 'mindrape' - it reminds me of River in Serenity, of Spike & Angel after getting their souls. Something terrible inserted that shouldn't be there, acts that the characters would never commit of their own accord (re. Spike & Angel, then I'm thinking in terms of William and Liam). It really is a violation - and I think that Adam chooses Ianto's very specifically, so it'll hurt as much as possible.
Anyway, then we get that wonderful Jack/Ianto scene. Jack gets out his 100% correct lie detector, and when it doesn't go off he just brushes it away (Ianto: It reads as truth./Jack: I don't believe it.). He knows that Ianto wouldn't do what he's claiming to have done. It's that simple. And I love that. There are shades of the Buffy-verse 'Sleeper' episode, but only shades - Buffy knows that souled!Spike wouldn't kill, but he *is* still a vampire with a long and bloody past, and she can't discount that. But Jack knows that there is no possible way for Ianto to be telling the truth - and that deep understanding, that surety is what the whole story turns on. (Ianto: Something in me wants to kill./Jack: No. This isn't you.) [It all goes kinda over the top when Jack 'regresses' them all to find their original memories, but I still like the sentiment: They're a group, and they trust and *know* each other. And Jack, despite his 'messiah' complex, really is a lot older than all of them. It's easy to forget.]
(ETA: By the way, yes I think Ianto is quite probably capable of killing someone, if it was desperately necessary. But it would be a *big* deal for him, and he would certainly never derive any pleasure from it.)
The episode also touches upon what you can do with characters - and what constitutes OOCness. Everything Adam does uptil Ianto is what we all do in fic: Branch the characters off into a different direction. Different life experiences lead to different destinations. But forcing Ianto into a role that could never be his demonstrates where the dividing line is, and why it is so important to understand it. (I love this show. It's often clumsy in how it frames its ideas, but the thinking behind is sound. I can't think of anything else that has tackled this subject in this way. Can you tell that what constitutes OOCness happens to be a pet-subject of mine? *g*)
Also I think this is one of the points where it differs very much from Doctor Who: DW is about the Doctor front and center. But Torchwood is an ensemble show. Like Buffy it has a focal character, but the group is important, and the group matters and the group can cope quite well on its own, a lot of the time.
(Speaking of the Doctor, then I remembered him when Jack was talking to Adam: Good job - it's what we do best. Wipe out aliens. Because oh, he hasn't changed Torchwood as much as he'd like the Doctor to think, oh no. I wonder if any future conflict will come from that - I'd like that. Because the Doctor ain't exactly a shining beacon of love when it comes to dealing with threats either.)
One final thought re. Jack/Ianto: Are they lovers in the Adam-verse? Probably not, but... there is Ianto's wink to Tosh, indicating that there are also naughty secrets kept in his diary. And there is his and Jack's instinctive closeness - whether this is because they're lovers, or whether it's just a subconscious thing (*so* many shades of 'Tabula Rasa') I don't know. But what I did notice was when Jack hugged Ianto, after finding him all distraught in the Hub, he doesn't just hold him, he softly strokes the back of his head (see here and here. Oh and he holds him here.) It's a tiny thing, the smallest little detail, and yet it just speaks to me of deep familiarity. I'm probably deluded, but still. I live for details like that.
Of course there's also Ianto's final words before taking his retcon pill: Coming here... gave me meaning again. You. The way he says that just gives me chills. And then Jack kisses him. This just confirms again why I love it (and every other couple that I ship): The conflicts, the story, comes from *within*, from the tension between the characters. (Compare with Jack/Gwen: the 'story' comes mostly from the fact that they can't be together - an outside factor. Jack & Ianto have been with each other for a long while now, and things are still complicated. They are totally the Spuffy of the Who-niverse!) (Which makes Capt. John Drusilla! *g*)
Assorted thoughts on 'Adam'. What did the episode do and why?
- It had fun playing with the format. The credits had Adam inserted, Jonathan in 'Superstar'-style. And we got different versions of our characters - most notably sweet nerd!Owen, instead of our normal jerk!Owen. I could almost *hear* the writers say 'So - you don't like him the way he is? Well what about this version then?' Yes he was adorable, but I'd have the real one any day - I don't think nerd!Owen would never have opened the Rift to get Jack back f.ex. (It's almost like seeing Wes in 'Spin the Bottle'. I prefer my characters tortured.)
- Show the audience things we would not otherwise know: Like the fact that Owen could love Tosh. And of course all the flashback memories of Grey. Also that Gwen and Rhys really have something special - that she could fall for him all over again. Not to mention the fact that telling him the truth (and not Retconning him in 'Meat') was the right call - Rhys was freaked, obviously, but he knew what Gwen's job entailed (including the pills that make you forget) and trusted Jack. Lovely continuity. Also the writers then push the re-set button. Gotta love sci-fi.
- Re. Grey: Loved it all (wonky acting and all) and I'm sure it'll be important. Grey himself was too cute for words, and the outfits reminded me of Star Wars (in the best possible way). And Boe-Shane was a desert, huh? Or very desert-like anyway. I'll have to mull that one over. There's Star Wars of course, and Dune, and the clothes were just perfect. The whiteness, the goggles, the scarf - beautiful. There is something in the back of my head that I can't put my finger on - something to do with the fact that Jack was a desert child. Loved the sand in the box at the end though. There was also Adam's mention of Jack's unique memories - and the fact that some were buried (he buried those of Grey himself, on purpose) and some 'absent'. Would this be the two years the Time Agency stole? Hmmm... And did Jack wipe out *all* his childhood memories, or just the few that Adam uncovered?
- The episode also played with the whole memory/identity thing. I'm reminded of 'Origin':
Illyria: Are these the memories you needed back? Does this now make you Wesley? Our lives, our memories make us who we are, for better or worse. Owen is a jerk, and we now *know* that this is because of his childhood ('I love you because you're my son, but that doesn't mean I have to like you!'). There are occasional cracks in the armour - will these get larger? Will he ever be able to get through all the mess and admit to his feelings? I for one am happy to wait and see. (I could write a whole post just on Owen. But I really, really do not have time.) I also loved this exchange: Tosh: I'm going to lose so much. / Jack: None of it was real. What constitutes 'real' is one of my favourite themes from the Buffy-verse. I was happy to see it again. (Just look at: We have something, Buffy. It's not pretty, but it's real, and there's nothing either one of us can do about it. See what I mean about Jack/Ianto fitting into my shipping patterns?)
- I don't know if it was deliberate, but Adam reminded me of 'Legion' from Red Dwarf - an entity with no life of its own, destined to die without someone to leech life from. Legion was of course played for laughs, which Adam *really* wasn't. Oh and there's also that episode of Red Dwarf that starts with them all waking up to discover two days missing. (Incidentally I think Jack also ret-conned Rhys, even though we didn't see it.)
- Final thought on Adam: He was in the Void. Here's what the Doctor said in 'Army of Ghosts':
The space between dimensions. There's all sorts of realities around us, different dimensions - billions of parallel universes all stacked up against each other. The Void is the space in-between. Containing absolutely nothing. Imagine that - nothing. No light, no dark, no up, no down. No life. No time. Without end. My people called it the Void, the Eternals call it the Howling. But some people call it Hell.
I love it when my shows get 'religious'/theological/philosophical. Oh yes. More please, as soon as you like! Question being of course - how did he get there? Do evil creatures really go to hell? And how did he get out? (Even more important.) And does it all tie in with the whole 'there's nothing' that Jack (& others) kept repeating in S1?
I think that's it. It's plenty for now, anyway.I am terribly torn as to whether to allow comments or not, because I probably won't have much time to answer (presuming people reply, that is) [ETA: Hey - RL cut me some slack today, yay!], and I don't want anyone to harsh my squee, please? (Which is one reason I've been staying away from most discussions. I just like to sit in a corner and admire my new show in peace. I *know* all the problems, OK? JB's OTT acting. The stuff that's contrived and makes no sense. But I don't care. I've always said that I can cope with wonky storytelling, as long as the characters make sense and are interesting. Torchwood has tested that claim and found it to be true.)
Also pardon opinions that might be stated as facts. I just wanted to get this out of the way, it's been eating my brain for long enough.
Oh - and do NOT spoil me for'Reset' 'Dead Man Walking', OK? Won't see it until Sunday...
And now onto the canon slash... with some thoughts on 'Adam' tacked on at the end. Because this show makes me *think*, and that is what I love.
I've been pondering the pretty boys recently, and thinking back I'm fairly sure that I've always shipped them - more or less.
You see, they were *interesting* and pretty and thus became my OTP. However, post-'To The Last Man' the thing entered a whole new level and my entire focus when watching Torchwood has now shifted. That doesn't mean that I like the rest less, quite the opposite in fact. Because of my obsession with our two boys I am now far more invested in the show than before.
Anyway - let's get back to the beginning.
First of all, it pleases me no end that Jack/Ianto is hinted at in the first ep:
Jack: And this is Ianto Jones. Ianto cleans up after us and gets us everywhere on time.
Ianto: I try my best.
Jack: And he looks good in a suit.
Ianto: Careful, that's harassment, sir.
And Jack's expression is such a 'wouldn't mind a piece of that' that it just makes me laugh. Not that I noticed back then, I think, but I certainly liked Ianto and his role, and could definitely see the slashy potential. Then of course came 'Cyberwoman' which appeared to destroy any hope of Jack & Ianto getting together (although Jack *did* French-kiss Ianto back to life, so...), as well as Ianto's character. (Will get back to that, but at the time I was very cross indeed.)
Also I was just now struck by the 'gets us everywhere on time' - timekeeping is [part of] his job. Hmmm. This ties in beautifully with the stopwatch of course, but also that he is the one who remembers, the one who keeps records etc. I like it.
Now I know a lot of people found it hard to see how Ianto could be screaming at Jack that he was a monster in one episode, and then chatting him up a few weeks later (months? Not sure about the TW timeline in S1). Anyway, writing this meta I looked through old posts of mine, and this is what I had to say about Ianto in Countrycide (and please note that I *hadn't* seen the first 10 minutes of the ep and thus missed the talk mentioning Lisa & the significant looks that followed!):
- Ianto. Why is he there? I mean he appears to hate everything, so why hasn't he left? I'm sincerely hoping they're going to give him some sort of reason for hanging around - because currently he's just annoying me. He's obviously 'the outsider', doing a bit of 'telling, not showing' when the need arises. Please, please let him have a crush on Jack...
And lo and behold my prayers were answered a few episodes later! But what I find interesting with hindsight is the fact that I thought that Jack/Ianto would not be at all illogical, I just worried that they wouldn't go there. (Die-hard Spuffy & Spangel 'shipper here, I am used to my OTPs having feelings that are 'intense, but changeable'.) Thankfully though, the writers did have a plan - maybe they have more of a brain that I give them credit for. (And apparently I see every character on TW as bisexual. Guess it's Jack who does it...)
Anyway, I still think that the Stopwatch scene is one of the most awesome things ever. It was one of those that made me go 'Wait - hold on - did Ianto just say what I thought he said???'
I *love* stuff like that. It just flipped everything upside down in the most wonderful way. And speaking of crediting the writers, then just after 'Cyberwoman' we got 'Small Worlds' - the ep with the [evil] faires where
a) Jack loses a woman he loved.
b) Jack is again ruthless, doing what has to be done despite the intense misery he causes.
I think Ianto (being very observant) would notice these things. (How much do I love that he keeps a Diary? Entirely too much. The Watcher parallels just keep coming.)
ETA: Ha! I am right. According to The Captain's Blog on the BBCA site. Ianto is the only one not around for the fairy incident, and thus misses the impact:
Other Staff issues: After what happened with Jasmine, nobody is talking to me (except Ianto).
Still, why does Ianto hit on Jack? I don't know. And this is what I like about it. I can think of a dozen reasons off the top of my head, but I don't know which ones are correct... and that, to me, is what makes it real. It is messed up, and fairly unhealthy, but it is also two people seeking solace, I think.
Also, there's the fact that Ianto's crush is clearly not invisible to the rest:
OWEN: Don't compare yourself to me. You're just a tea boy.
IANTO: I'm much more than that. Jack needs me.
OWEN: In your dreams, Ianto. In your sad wet dreams when you're his part-time shag, maybe.
'End of Days'
And what does Ianto mean? Is it just the fact that he really *is* Jack's 'part-time shag', even though Owen doesn't know it? (Or does he know? Do the others know, back in S1? I can't tell. Owen's line can be read both ways. *is frustrated*)
But - let's get back to 'Cyberwoman' and the way Ianto lashes out at Jack.
IANTO: I won't do it. You can't make me. You like to think you're a hero. But you're the biggest monster of all.
Love and hate run close together, and the sort of full-on, no holds barred bust-up between Jack and Ianto can definitely be seen in a positive light. Look at Spike and Buffy in 'Get it Done', or Spike and Angel in 'Destiny' (please tell me that that fight means that they hate each other 4eva and then I shall laugh at you for the rest of the week! *g*) - or, this is actually an even better example, look at Buffy and Xander in 'Selfless' (which is slight sacrilege since that episode is close to genius and 'Cyberwoman'... isn't) - anyway, the hero is off to kill her friend's [evil] girlfriend, and my goodness they rip into each other... The reason they're both so angry that they care about each other and both feel betrayed.
We see Ianto chiding Jack for never asking him about his personal life - but this is *Torchwood*, no one ever asks. But the fact that Ianto is hurt by it, shows that he cares about what Jack thinks, and wants him to be interested. (Maybe. It's one way of looking at it. See what I mean about looking at the show through 'shipper glasses?)
Anyway, I think Ianto does a lot of soul searching after what happened. I think he realises that Jack was right. That Lisa wasn't human anymore.
And as for sleeping with him - well I'm a Spuffy fan:
BUFFY: He's everything I hate. He's everything that ... I'm supposed to be against. But the only time that I ever feel anything is when...
Of course Ianto isn't Buffy. Really, really isn't. He doesn't fall into Jack's bed in a fit of passion - no, he carefully plans it. And I don't think he *hates* Jack, I think his feelings are a lot more complex than that (not that Buffy's feelings for Spike aren't complex of course). GDL apparently said in an interview that Jack was Ianto's 'Lover, parent and guardian' which is nicely messed up.
Anyway, I think it is very significant that it's Ianto who initiates things. Maybe its his way of letting Jack know that he's forgiven him? Maybe it's a way of acknowledging that he really is attracted to Jack? Maybe it's a way of wielding some power over Jack, since Ianto knows that Jack fancies him? Maybe it's just reaching out to someone he knows understands?
Still, I think Jack is being honest when he tells the real Capt. Jack that 'there's no-one'. Because he is still hurting (/traumatised) by being abandoned by the Doctor, and by not understanding why he is the way he is. He is quite simply unable to move on because the past still has such a grip on him.
But then we get his crossover into Doctor Who, and not only are his questions answered, but he also gets to spend an entire year as a prisoner, with ample time to ponder his life and his choices.
And in the end he chooses Torchwood - and Ianto (and Gwen).
Ianto: Are you going back to him?
Jack: I came back for you.
[dies. iz ded. comes back to life to see Jack backtrack. bother.]
I love that the first time they're alone together he asks for a date. (Rather awkwardly - I doubt he's actually ever asked anyone on an actual date before.)
Anyway, this all made me very happy. But then came *that* scene in 'To The Last Man'. It's short (just like the stopwatch one), but it left me with the same slightly slack-jawed expression on my face. 'Did Jack just say what I thought he said???'
fodian has done a frame-by-frame, sentence-by-sentence run-through of the scene that you should all go read, because she says pretty much exactly what I'd say. So much going on underneath. So many layers. So many kinks hit simultaneously.Although to be honest I'm not that bothered about the kiss. They could have cut it after 2 seconds and it'd have been fine by me - because the kiss was just the end, the conclusion, the consequence of what was said. Like Jack's 'See you in my office in 10 minutes'. It's the stuff before that's important. Because suddenly my messed up 'ship turned into a love story. And that heavy thud? Was me falling. The thing is that when it comes to ships, I'm not really one for love-at-first-sight-made-for-each-other couples. Don't get me wrong, Buffy/Angel break my heart, and Doctor/Rose are too adorable for words. But what makes *me* tick is the ship where it's *not* love (alone) that brings the characters together - where there is more at work than just hormones or being 'soulmates'. As I said to Kathy a little while ago:
The way Ianto is always there in the background, the way Jack instinctively turns to him, the way they watch each other... Just watch me drown.
(On the other hand, when a couple like that *do* admit to feelings it kills me.)
*happy sigh*
Then came 'Meat', which threw me again. Partly the Gwen stuff, because apparently they really are going for the Jack/Gwen/Rhys love triangle, which of course works wonderfully and gives everyone copious amounts of angst to deal with. It doesn't really worry me from my Jack/Ianto shipping POV though, since I'm sure that if Jack could he'd settle down in a happy threesome.
Now, don't think I disapprove of this state of affairs. Oh no. It makes things so much more interesting. And we'll get some sort of 'revelation scene' at some point, and I love those.
In the meantime though, I can't help but wonder... why? I don't think it's Jack wanting to keep Ianto 'hidden', because I can't see him being 'ashamed' of their relationship in any way. Maybe they just want to keep it private and personal? I can definitely see Ianto as someone who enjoys having secrets - and Jack as not wanting to have his feelings publicly scrutinised.
And really, it isn't anybody else's business what they do in their spare time. I can totally see them being all manly and not wanting anyone to know.
ETA:
tencrush has provided an excellent - and beautifully logical - explanation here :)Stupid show. Apparently it was just Tosh being oblivious. Ah well. It means that we really *can* imagine that Gwen & Ianto have fun talking about Jack's manners in bed! :)
I have seen people wondering what Jack sees in Ianto - apart from the obvious, of course. Now I like that there's not some big reason, no heroic act or obvious thing to point to. It makes it more tangible to me, grounds it in reality, which is a good thing in a 'verse where there is so much stuff that is larger than life. Because in so many ways love is about the little things - those tiny little personal quirks that make someone special and different from everyone else: Like wearing a napkin for eating pizza, like always carrying a stopwatch (and using said item for hitting on someone), like always wearing a suit to work, even though the job doesn't require it, like always making the coffee just right, and so on. (Gwen's love for Rhys proves this point beautifully btw.)
But I also had a hunch, and 'Adam' confirmed that, in as much as it ever will be. Why is Jack drawn to Ianto? Because he couldn't kill Lisa - because it is not in his nature to be a killer. Oh he can dole out violence if necessary, cause he's *certainly* not a wimp in any way (as we have seen time and again). But I think it's significant that the long teaser in 'Kiss Kiss Bang Bang' ended with Ianto hesitating whilst the Blowfish taunted him. And then Jack shot it - Jack who's the eternal soldier, and has far too much blood on his hands. "You always remember who you've killed - don't you Jack?" Adam asks, and Jack knows it is true. (What a line, by the way. Wonderful!)
Also look at Jack's past, and his former partners (using the word in its loosest term):
John, who is a mirror of Jack - living a life without meaning (but having fun!), and where killing people is rather regrettable, but nothing more. (+ countless partners who just provided good sex.)
The Doctor, who of course changed Jack and gave him a purpose ('If you can't do something smart, do something right!'). But the Doctor isn't an untainted hero - the Doctor can be ruthless and vengeful, and the Doctor will do whatever it takes to win, if necessary.
And then we have Ianto... is it any wonder that Jack is drawn to Ianto, who refuses to kill his girlfriend, even with a gun to his head? Who (foolishly) tries to see humanity where there's none? We see the same thing with Gwen, Jack's other love - the woman who always tries to connect to the human aspect of any situation. (Working with TW is changing her, as we see, but that's a different topic. My point is that there is a definite logic to who Jack falls for, and why.)
I know 'Adam' wasn't the greatest of episodes, but I loved what it did - especially with Ianto, and Jack and Ianto. Because it was 'the tea-boy' who first rumbled Adam, the 'Watcher', the one with the diary. The one who notices things others do not. It is *so* perfect. And then Adam took his revenge. There were several reasons for this: To show that Adam was *evil* (and not just misguided or 'alien' or whatever), and to set up the Jack/Ianto scene, which is the heart of the episode I think.
The word 'mind-rape' gets thrown around a lot in the Buffy-fandom, but it usually means a removal of memories, which is what Adam does initially: By inserting himself he cancels out whatever defines the characters - what they hold most dear, or what has scarred them most: For Gwen it's Rhys, for Owen his mother (or rather her abuse), for Tosh her isolation and love of maths, and for Ianto Lisa - and what followed (I don't *think* Jack and Ianto are lovers in the Adam-verse). But what Adam goes on to do to Ianto might actually fit better with the term 'mindrape' - it reminds me of River in Serenity, of Spike & Angel after getting their souls. Something terrible inserted that shouldn't be there, acts that the characters would never commit of their own accord (re. Spike & Angel, then I'm thinking in terms of William and Liam). It really is a violation - and I think that Adam chooses Ianto's very specifically, so it'll hurt as much as possible.
Anyway, then we get that wonderful Jack/Ianto scene. Jack gets out his 100% correct lie detector, and when it doesn't go off he just brushes it away (Ianto: It reads as truth./Jack: I don't believe it.). He knows that Ianto wouldn't do what he's claiming to have done. It's that simple. And I love that. There are shades of the Buffy-verse 'Sleeper' episode, but only shades - Buffy knows that souled!Spike wouldn't kill, but he *is* still a vampire with a long and bloody past, and she can't discount that. But Jack knows that there is no possible way for Ianto to be telling the truth - and that deep understanding, that surety is what the whole story turns on. (Ianto: Something in me wants to kill./Jack: No. This isn't you.) [It all goes kinda over the top when Jack 'regresses' them all to find their original memories, but I still like the sentiment: They're a group, and they trust and *know* each other. And Jack, despite his 'messiah' complex, really is a lot older than all of them. It's easy to forget.]
(ETA: By the way, yes I think Ianto is quite probably capable of killing someone, if it was desperately necessary. But it would be a *big* deal for him, and he would certainly never derive any pleasure from it.)
The episode also touches upon what you can do with characters - and what constitutes OOCness. Everything Adam does uptil Ianto is what we all do in fic: Branch the characters off into a different direction. Different life experiences lead to different destinations. But forcing Ianto into a role that could never be his demonstrates where the dividing line is, and why it is so important to understand it. (I love this show. It's often clumsy in how it frames its ideas, but the thinking behind is sound. I can't think of anything else that has tackled this subject in this way. Can you tell that what constitutes OOCness happens to be a pet-subject of mine? *g*)
Also I think this is one of the points where it differs very much from Doctor Who: DW is about the Doctor front and center. But Torchwood is an ensemble show. Like Buffy it has a focal character, but the group is important, and the group matters and the group can cope quite well on its own, a lot of the time.
(Speaking of the Doctor, then I remembered him when Jack was talking to Adam: Good job - it's what we do best. Wipe out aliens. Because oh, he hasn't changed Torchwood as much as he'd like the Doctor to think, oh no. I wonder if any future conflict will come from that - I'd like that. Because the Doctor ain't exactly a shining beacon of love when it comes to dealing with threats either.)
One final thought re. Jack/Ianto: Are they lovers in the Adam-verse? Probably not, but... there is Ianto's wink to Tosh, indicating that there are also naughty secrets kept in his diary. And there is his and Jack's instinctive closeness - whether this is because they're lovers, or whether it's just a subconscious thing (*so* many shades of 'Tabula Rasa') I don't know. But what I did notice was when Jack hugged Ianto, after finding him all distraught in the Hub, he doesn't just hold him, he softly strokes the back of his head (see here and here. Oh and he holds him here.) It's a tiny thing, the smallest little detail, and yet it just speaks to me of deep familiarity. I'm probably deluded, but still. I live for details like that.
Of course there's also Ianto's final words before taking his retcon pill: Coming here... gave me meaning again. You. The way he says that just gives me chills. And then Jack kisses him. This just confirms again why I love it (and every other couple that I ship): The conflicts, the story, comes from *within*, from the tension between the characters. (Compare with Jack/Gwen: the 'story' comes mostly from the fact that they can't be together - an outside factor. Jack & Ianto have been with each other for a long while now, and things are still complicated. They are totally the Spuffy of the Who-niverse!) (Which makes Capt. John Drusilla! *g*)
Assorted thoughts on 'Adam'. What did the episode do and why?
- It had fun playing with the format. The credits had Adam inserted, Jonathan in 'Superstar'-style. And we got different versions of our characters - most notably sweet nerd!Owen, instead of our normal jerk!Owen. I could almost *hear* the writers say 'So - you don't like him the way he is? Well what about this version then?' Yes he was adorable, but I'd have the real one any day - I don't think nerd!Owen would never have opened the Rift to get Jack back f.ex. (It's almost like seeing Wes in 'Spin the Bottle'. I prefer my characters tortured.)
- Show the audience things we would not otherwise know: Like the fact that Owen could love Tosh. And of course all the flashback memories of Grey. Also that Gwen and Rhys really have something special - that she could fall for him all over again. Not to mention the fact that telling him the truth (and not Retconning him in 'Meat') was the right call - Rhys was freaked, obviously, but he knew what Gwen's job entailed (including the pills that make you forget) and trusted Jack. Lovely continuity. Also the writers then push the re-set button. Gotta love sci-fi.
- Re. Grey: Loved it all (wonky acting and all) and I'm sure it'll be important. Grey himself was too cute for words, and the outfits reminded me of Star Wars (in the best possible way). And Boe-Shane was a desert, huh? Or very desert-like anyway. I'll have to mull that one over. There's Star Wars of course, and Dune, and the clothes were just perfect. The whiteness, the goggles, the scarf - beautiful. There is something in the back of my head that I can't put my finger on - something to do with the fact that Jack was a desert child. Loved the sand in the box at the end though. There was also Adam's mention of Jack's unique memories - and the fact that some were buried (he buried those of Grey himself, on purpose) and some 'absent'. Would this be the two years the Time Agency stole? Hmmm... And did Jack wipe out *all* his childhood memories, or just the few that Adam uncovered?
- The episode also played with the whole memory/identity thing. I'm reminded of 'Origin':
Illyria: Are these the memories you needed back? Does this now make you Wesley? Our lives, our memories make us who we are, for better or worse. Owen is a jerk, and we now *know* that this is because of his childhood ('I love you because you're my son, but that doesn't mean I have to like you!'). There are occasional cracks in the armour - will these get larger? Will he ever be able to get through all the mess and admit to his feelings? I for one am happy to wait and see. (I could write a whole post just on Owen. But I really, really do not have time.) I also loved this exchange: Tosh: I'm going to lose so much. / Jack: None of it was real. What constitutes 'real' is one of my favourite themes from the Buffy-verse. I was happy to see it again. (Just look at: We have something, Buffy. It's not pretty, but it's real, and there's nothing either one of us can do about it. See what I mean about Jack/Ianto fitting into my shipping patterns?)
- I don't know if it was deliberate, but Adam reminded me of 'Legion' from Red Dwarf - an entity with no life of its own, destined to die without someone to leech life from. Legion was of course played for laughs, which Adam *really* wasn't. Oh and there's also that episode of Red Dwarf that starts with them all waking up to discover two days missing. (Incidentally I think Jack also ret-conned Rhys, even though we didn't see it.)
- Final thought on Adam: He was in the Void. Here's what the Doctor said in 'Army of Ghosts':
The space between dimensions. There's all sorts of realities around us, different dimensions - billions of parallel universes all stacked up against each other. The Void is the space in-between. Containing absolutely nothing. Imagine that - nothing. No light, no dark, no up, no down. No life. No time. Without end. My people called it the Void, the Eternals call it the Howling. But some people call it Hell.
I love it when my shows get 'religious'/theological/philosophical. Oh yes. More please, as soon as you like! Question being of course - how did he get there? Do evil creatures really go to hell? And how did he get out? (Even more important.) And does it all tie in with the whole 'there's nothing' that Jack (& others) kept repeating in S1?
I think that's it. It's plenty for now, anyway.
Also pardon opinions that might be stated as facts. I just wanted to get this out of the way, it's been eating my brain for long enough.
Oh - and do NOT spoil me for
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I love that the first time they're alone together he asks for a date. (Rather awkwardly - I doubt he's actually ever asked anyone on an actual date before.) ... Yes, I thought the same - liked that scene.
Last season I wasn't an Ianto fan at all - but as this one is going, so far my worry is that he (and Rhys) are going to get hurt by Gwen/Jack. Probably more Gwen than Jack.
I am really loving this season - some great episodes - and even if their characters have been pushed around, it is good to see the people!
Cap'n John = Drusilla ... mmmmmm Great thought there ... LOL
btw - you have missed a letter out at the beginning of a paragraph 2/3 way down - your wrote "mid-rape" and I presume you meant miNd-rape.
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Beautifully put together - I love reading your in-depth thoughts as you ususally manage to say what I am parially thinking - but you do a better job than I would ever manage.
Aw, thank you. I very often have a feeling that I am horribly clumsy when trying to put my thoughts across (some people's meta is all effortless and stuff - mine usually feels like it's held together with sticky tape).
Yes, I thought the same - liked that scene.
It also highlighted how Jack is still a stranger in the normal world, which is easy to forget. So he's not just nervous, he's also trying to follow 21st century conventions. It kinda makes me want to pet him. :)
Last season I wasn't an Ianto fan at all - but as this one is going, so far my worry is that he (and Rhys) are going to get hurt by Gwen/Jack. Probably more Gwen than Jack.
Last season I loved Ianto uptill 'Cyberwoman', then hated the writers for what they'd done to him until the stopwatch scene, when I forgave a *lot* (if not all), but this season I've just fallen for him completely. He might be my favourite now...
I am really loving this season - some great episodes - and even if their characters have been pushed around, it is good to see the people!
Well first seasons are notoriously wonky - just look at s1 of Buffy or Angel.
Cap'n John = Drusilla ... mmmmmm Great thought there ... LOL
Oh he *so* is. Or maybe Darla... ;)
btw - you have missed a letter out at the beginning of a paragraph 2/3 way down - your wrote "mid-rape" and I presume you meant miNd-rape.
Thank you!!!! That's the sort of thing stupid spell checkers don't catch! And thank you for reading - means an awful lot! :)
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And I won't spoil "Reset", though I loved it. Loved, loved, loved... but I won't spoil it!
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Thank you! It was one of those things that I just *had* to write down...
I probably shouldn't have read it though as I haven't watched Adam , but I'm officially intrigued!
You must be rather puzzled too, I should imagine!
And I don't even ship Jack and Ianto...
In which case thou art a brave soul to enter this delusional shippers ravings.
And I won't spoil "Reset", though I loved it. Loved, loved, loved... but I won't spoil it!
Thank you for the non-spoilage, and I can't *wait* unti lI'm able to join in the squee. ::is impatient::
(Oh and I posted another chapter of 'Mrs Saxon's Diary' a while ago when you were MIA, if you want to catch up? Hope things are easing up for you! *hugs*)
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You made me remember something as well. Something I've been wondering whether or not people noticed. More and more I come to the conclusion that they might not have. I mean, I only saw when I watched the episode for the second time (and had to replay a couple of times to be sure)
You said: like always carrying a stopwatch (and using said item for hitting on someone)
In 'they keep killing Suzie, just before they resurrect Suzie, Jack throws Ianto the stopwatch. Also, the BBC America site Jack's blog for that same episode says: Upcoming issues: Need to requisition a new stopwatch. Old one damaged while moving a desk. So, the stopwatch is Jack's, which makes the fact that Ianto keeps showing up with it even sweeter to me. :)
Before I saw Jack throw the stopwatch to Ianto, I never really understood Ianto's 'I've still got that stopwatch'. Because if it was his, he'd always have it, and Jack would know that. Right?
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Aw, thank you! That's quite a compliment. Although I'm sure the show will keep the story moving, so sooner or later I'll have to write something new! :)
In 'they keep killing Suzie, just before they resurrect Suzie, Jack throws Ianto the stopwatch. Also, the BBC America site Jack's blog for that same episode says: Upcoming issues: Need to requisition a new stopwatch. Old one damaged while moving a desk. So, the stopwatch is Jack's, which makes the fact that Ianto keeps showing up with it even sweeter to me. :)
I can't tell you how much I love you for this! I don't have S1 (didn't record it at the time, and certainly can't afford to buy it) so I can't re-watch! But the stopwatch being Jack's (or Torchwood's) makes perfect sense of things, yes. And Jack's note cracks me up completely. 'Old one damaged while moving a desk'??? Oh Jack - never change! And I'll bet the desk moved quite a bit! ;) Of course everyone has *presumed* that they had sex on the desk, but 'tis canon now! *is ridiculously happy*
Thank you again SO much!
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you can watch it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGO05J7rEmg
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Ah, but there's the rub, though, there's feelings?? Jack said himself, that makes you vulnerable. He's supposed to be their leader, sending his friends off to die as he says in Dead Man Walking (that's not a particularly spoilery comment, it's just an observation he makes) God, I ship them like mad, but I think the relationship's ultimately doomed because of that. Jack really can't afford to put himself in that position and I think he doesn't want the rest of the team to see him putting himself in that position, hence the hiding of their relationship.
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Thank you lots and lots for reading, and for your insight! :)
(And your icon cracks me up!)
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I thought it was interesting that Jack said what he said in Meat, about love making you vulnerable, because later he had to put it into practice quite literally. I don't think it was coincidental that Jack and Gwen were the ones hiding out on the ground and Rhys and Ianto were the ones being taken hostage. It showed exactly what he meant when Gwen immediately and instinctively reacted by giving herself up and Jack more or less cursed her for it under his breath. He can't do that, as much as he might like to, he can't afford to react that way and he can't afford to be seen to be reacting that way. I think a big part of his doe-eyed Gwen obsession is his jealousy of her and the fact that she can, does and will always put herself in that position of vulnerability, fuck the consequences, hence the not retconning Rhys thing. He envies that. That's my handwavey non shippy take on Jack/Gwen, anyway.
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Oh yes, I loved that. The way Jack says 'You *love* him', like it's almost an accusation. Love is dangerous.
I don't think it was coincidental that Jack and Gwen were the ones hiding out on the ground and Rhys and Ianto were the ones being taken hostage.
The same thought occurred to me! :)
It showed exactly what he meant when Gwen immediately and instinctively reacted by giving herself up and Jack more or less cursed her for it under his breath. He can't do that, as much as he might like to, he can't afford to react that way and he can't afford to be seen to be reacting that way.
*nods* When Ianto fights one of the bad guys a little later, and almost gets shot, Jack is all 'get up and follow them!' Partly of course because he knows Ianto can handle himself, but also, as you say, because he can't afford to show special favours.
I think a big part of his doe-eyed Gwen obsession is his jealousy of her and the fact that she can, does and will always put herself in that position of vulnerability, fuck the consequences, hence the not retconning Rhys thing. He envies that. That's my handwavey non shippy take on Jack/Gwen, anyway.
I like that. And - as I pointed out above - Ianto is was just the same with Lisa (in as much as it could be the same what with the different circumstances). But Jack is the one who always has to weigh the consequences, who'll do whatever it takes (which is where Adam miscalculated btw. Jack - like the Doctor - would destroy what he holds dearest if he had to).
Oh! ::has brainwave:: Are you familiar with AtS? (If not then my example won't mean anything.)
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You would not believe how many of my Angel kinks TW manages to hit... Angel is of course a superior show, but Torchwood is MADE OF CRACK!
Late Buffy, yes (I kind of like to pretend seasons 1-4 didn't really exist)
Heee! But bitty Buffy is so *sweet*! (Am also a late-season lover. I mean I started a comm and everything!) Anyway, I just realised that Buffy will also work if we look at 'The Gift' - she was willing to kill Angel to save the world, but not Dawn (younger sibling, hmmm...). The Angel parallel is more poignant, because Angel doesn't find a way out the way Buffy does, but nevermind - my point being that Grey might be the one person in the world that might cause Jack to fold. Achillies heel and all that. (Do not spoil me...)
Oh and thank you for the friending. Welcome and all that. *waves*
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I can't spoil you, we're on a completely different mid-season tangent in the current episodes with not much more than the obligatory nod to my OTP. Though I'm reliably informed that will be fixx0red soon. :) Thank God.
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I have an idea, but it's only wild speculation and I'm just happy to see where it goes.
I can't spoil you, we're on a completely different mid-season tangent in the current episodes with not much more than the obligatory nod to my OTP. Though I'm reliably informed that will be fixx0red soon. :) Thank God.
Heh. This is where being an old Spuffy (& Spangel) shipper is v. handy. I am used to surviving for weeks on nothing more than furtive glances and casual lines. :)
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We see Ianto chiding Jack for never asking him about his personal life - but this is *Torchwood*, no one ever asks. But the fact that Ianto is hurt by it, shows that he cares about what Jack thinks, and wants him to be interested.
I wasn't a Jack/Ianto shipper until about the sixth episode, when Ianto made it clear to Jack that he wasn't important enough to be considered as a last kiss. That's when it hit home how much Jack really affects Ianto, so much so that he causes Ianto to behave even out of character now and again. What you've said about the personal life thing - that's so true, and I don't think you only noticed it because you're a shipper.
Anyway, I've rambled on enough. But yes, amazing thoughts, jolly good and all that :D
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*shields eyes from rest of comment* Six episode oh what season? I've not seen ep 6 of S2 yet, you see, and the word 'spoiler-phobe' doesn't even begin to cover how much I hide from knowing what happens next. So if there's anything about 'Reset' in the rest of your comment I shall just leave it until Sunday (when I finally get to watch the ep) and answer then, OK?
Otherwise then I am impossibly pleased by how much you like my post. And I got *thisclose* to calling it a 'manifesto', but I don't really like those, so I didn't! ;)
Thank you lots and lots for reading, though - you've made me smile muchly!
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Re-reading things through (complete with comments) I love the whole discussion about why their relationship isn't "public" within the team. They obviously know something is up but there's still this air of secrecy, as seen in 2x04 when Tosh made it clear she thought that they were all single. I agree with the above comment; I think it's because Jack's scared of feeling too much for Ianto because he knows that he won't always be there to look after him. I did like that Jack specifically ruled him out in 2x01 though, when he said "I came back for you..." Hee!
<3
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Apparently obsessing makes me paranoid... I should probably be worried. Ah well. ;)
Now about your points:
I wasn't a Jack/Ianto shipper until about the sixth episode, when Ianto made it clear to Jack that he wasn't important enough to be considered as a last kiss.
I hadn't actually considered that before... well maybe, but it's a year since I saw S1 and it's all a little hazy. (Of course Jack was supposedly giving Ianto CPR, even though it looked like he was snogging his face off! *g*) Lots of food for thought there certainly, the way the issue of Lisa and everything that happened gets brought up, and how Ianto and Jack are dealing with that.
What you've said about the personal life thing - that's so true, and I don't think you only noticed it because you're a shipper.
Heh. Thank you. But reading through the transcript it just really stuck out - I don't think even sweet Gwen has asked Ianto about his personal life.
Seriously, everything you've said is perfectly thought through.
This just makes me blush. (And also feel that I can't really take credit because these thoughts just ATE MY HEAD! I couldn't help it...)
I completely agree that the dynamic of Jack/Ianto is fascinating because as a viewer we really don't know anything about them, or their motives. That's why I adore them. Because they're real, and confusing, and just so completely human.
*nods*
Re-reading things through (complete with comments) I love the whole discussion about why their relationship isn't "public" within the team.
Fascinating, isn't it? 'Meat' really made me sit up, because until then I'd just *presumed* that everyone knew. But they don't and that just makes it 100 times more intriguing. I can totally see Gwen getting all 'You were keeping SECRETS!', and Jack being all 'Hey - *you* slept around with Owen! Ianto and I are not cheating on anyone and what we do in our own time is none of your business!' (I like Gwen btw, but I think she'll get upset and then get pwn'd! I iz ev0l. I think she'll be most upset with Jack though, and not Ianto.)
Pointed here by insevens...
(Anonymous) 2008-02-25 08:16 pm (UTC)(link)I must say that when Torchwood first arrived in the states, there were several comments about how much of it would be subtext and subtle direction. So, since my biggest experience from television is American, kept looking for the "subtle" signs between Gwen and Jack and was finding NOTHING... I did notice in the Cyberwoman episode that both Jack and Ianto's reactions seemed to be so...as you mentioned, it was personal betrayal they were dealing with, a betrayal of feelings. I attributed it to Jack being still enraged at the way the doctor abandoned him and transferring the emotions to Ianto, which IMO, it's probably partially true.
Then, in Countrycide, all the lightbulbs went on. There's a moment there where Ianto is getting food from some roadside vendor or something and as he returns to the group Jack looks at him and smiles a soft half-smile that absolutely told me how hard Jack had fallen for Ianto. And that exchange of looks when Ianto says Lisa is the last person he kissed -- Jack looked furious and Ianto defiant!
This season is all pure fun, because Ianto seems so much more secure that he can tease Jack and Jack seems so much more relaxed that he can enjoy the teasing... And how the others don't notice is beyond me... they have moments that seem to be straight out of the "married people handbook"!
Re: Pointed here by insevens...
Aw, thank you! I'll probably have to add to it - or write more - as the season progresses, which is really weird. I'm not used to canon that's constantly updated! ;)
Like you, I can tolerate wonky storylines as long as the characters keep me involved!
The joy of good characters is that you can take them anywhere, and they'll be enjoyable.
I must say that when Torchwood first arrived in the states, there were several comments about how much of it would be subtext and subtle direction.
*laughs hysterically* Um... OK, so that's actually a valid point re. Jack/Ianto, but otherwise? TW is the least subtle show *ever*. :)
So, since my biggest experience from television is American, kept looking for the "subtle" signs between Gwen and Jack and was finding NOTHING.
I really enjoyed the messed-up-ness that was Gwen/Owen though. And Jack/Gwen is... I dunno. Guess they needed him to hit on at least *one* woman. ;)
I attributed it to Jack being still enraged at the way the doctor abandoned him and transferring the emotions to Ianto, which IMO, it's probably partially true.
Ah, that's an interesting take, and yes I can see that. Jack would have HUGE problems with betrayal and dishonesty because of the Doctor.
And that exchange of looks when Ianto says Lisa is the last person he kissed -- Jack looked furious and Ianto defiant!
Well I missed that when it first aired, so I only heard of it later (after they got together) - but I'm not sure that's my reading (having just re-watched it again, thank you youtube!). More that Jack actually feels for Ianto (and has himself just lost Estelle), so oddly it kinda becomes something they bond over... Just my reading. But then that's the fun of this ship - it really *is* very subtle and underplayed and we can all read into the scenes what we want.
This season is all pure fun, because Ianto seems so much more secure that he can tease Jack and Jack seems so much more relaxed that he can enjoy the teasing...
It's wonderful! I'm sure there'll be angst at some point, but the fact that they can be both fun, *and* angsty, is brilliant!
And how the others don't notice is beyond me... they have moments that seem to be straight out of the "married people handbook"!
I *know*! Bizarre. Can't wait until someone works it out! :)
Oh and thank you so much for your long comment.