elisi: Edwin holding a tiny snowman (Buffy - Best Show Ever by touristrgirl)
elisi ([personal profile] elisi) wrote2006-09-08 01:16 pm
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'Essay: Hells Bells' by One Bit Shy

You might remember me mentioning One Bit Shy before - he always has the most fascinating insights in this comments on Arbitrar Of Qualty's posts (I reposted his Spike/FFL thoughs a while ago). Well a few weeks ago AOQ reviewed 'Hells Bells' (and he *really* didn't like it). OBS sprang to the the defence writing what is the most indepth and insightful analysis of the episode I've ever read. So here it is.

If ever you hated Xander for walking out of the wedding - if ever you wanted to kick the writers for what they did - read this! Actually read it even if you love the episode - I'm sure you'll find something new! (Quotes from AOQ's original post in italics.)

BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"


This may prove to be the most difficult response I've had to compose yet.
For, you see, contrary to the typical reaction to this episode - including
yours - this is a clear Excellent for me. And not just that. One of my
favorite BtVS episodes of all time - currently sitting #7 on my BtVS top ten
list. Having a contrary view isn't such a deal - I just rated the much
despised As You Were a Good - my guilty pleasure - fully understanding the
disdain so many have for what surely is a ridiculous episode. I get that.
I don't get this. Mind you, I don't expect the rest of the world to see
this as a top ten episode. But I don't get how something as moving as I
believe this episode is can be trashed as readily as people do. And I don't
get people's overwhelming focus on Xander when there is another half to this
partnership - Anya - who plays a thunderously important part in this
episode, in the foundation of the whole situation, and in where this points
to the future. It's like half of the episode and most of its foundation and
purpose is being blacked out. Weird.

So it is with some trepidation that I leap into this fray. Hopefully I'll
get out of here alive.

I made a comment last week about how hearing about the hellish antics
that'd happen when the two families collided was more fun than
actually watching it, and I stand by that.


Heh. This must be the predictable part of the review. Cliche maybe? (Just
kidding.)

The early sequences manage
a few smiles with Xander's dad successfully managing, when shown in
small doses, that trick of irritating everyone except the audience with
his unplumbed depths of crass. Plus, Clem is in a few scenes. Hi,
Clem! Interspersed with that, we have a few tender moments amongst our
heroes, which don't tend to stand out but are acceptable. The gag at
the end of the Buffy/Xander exchange is a highlight, though: "I hope
I'm as lucky as you guys someday." "You wanna get lucky? I've
still got, what, fifteen, twenty minutes?" The affection in the
delivery and the characters' history make it funnier.


I enjoy the humor in the early scenes. Finding Xander's cufflinks on cousin
Carol's ears. Decorating the Sunnydale Bison Lodge by putting a bridal veil
on the bison head. (No, it doesn't really look like a bison head to me, but
it's supposed to be one.) Spike having nothing to say about his date other
than - well, this is his date. Date for the wedding. (Though I suppose
it's good that he's out and about enough to dig up a date.) Clem is
wonderful going with the circus folk story.

Clem: Well, there are ancient ways.... Clowning, as an occupation, grew out
of the commedia del'arte, and, uh, ancient sports, of course.

The whole circus folk pretense is fun and, of course, totally ridiculous,
what with all the insane looking demons at the wedding. Later, when Dawn
and the demon teen are casually talking about whose parents are worse, I
idly muse about how much of the Sunnydale scene really is pretense, and how
many casual encounters like theirs really go on. Brings to mind Buffy's
fast food friend dancing with Clem at Buffy's birthday party. Though, of
course, human's and demons still don't mix well as a whole, so we get
Xander's drunk father calling one "Squidly" and mocking him with wiggling
fingers below his chin to imitate the demon's strange appendages. And sweet
cousin Carol who just wants everyone to get along - so she can do some
serious husband hunting. Hey, that's good enough reason for me to be nice
to the demons.

Cousin Carol: No! No, the Harrises are very broad-minded. We're
Episcopalians.

I also enjoyed the initial encounter with D'Hoffryn

D'Hoffryn: Ah. Hymen's greetings.
Dawn: Hy - what?
D'Hoffryn: Hymen, the God of Matrimony. His salutations upon you. May the
love we celebrate today avoid an almost inevitable decline.

What a decidedly vengeance demon way of offering good luck. Heh. (I wonder
if D'Hoffryn might actually know Hymen. "His salutations upon you," almost
sounds like a personal message.) I think it's interesting seeing
D'Hoffryn's tender concern for Anya this episode - rather different than
what we saw back in S3 when he refused to return Anya's demon powers.
Perhaps, as THE vengeance demon, he really can't bear to see a broken heart,
has a big dose of sentimental fool in himself. Granted, turning to
vengeance as an act of sentiment is kind of sick, but - hey - evil demon
here. His idea of proper behavior isn't the same as you and I. But more
than most demons we see, he does care a lot about his idea of proper
behavior. We saw that with his polite offer to Willow. And I think he
probably believes the single most appropriate response to what was done to
Anya is to return her to her calling.

Or maybe this is D'Hoffryn's act of vengeance upon Anya.... I wonder if
D'Hoffryn would know the difference.

Back to the wedding. I enjoy the humor shown, but that's not what's
best to me about the various scenes swirling around the wedding party and
guests. What I really like, and why I've spent so much time on this part of
the show, is how all the show's players are brought together for a little
snapshot of where they are right now - which by Sunnydale standards is
pretty darned happy. Granted, that gets seriously messed up at the end.
(That intrusion - not Xander/Anya specific - is something I'll return to a
few episodes into the future.) But for a moment - a pretty long moment
actually - this episode serves a function somewhat akin to what The Prom did
in S3 by giving the characters a chance to just be happy.

And show the audience how much some of them have achieved. Willow and Tara
enjoying each other's company again, on the simplest terms. You can tell
that they really want to put the past behind them and find a way to just be
together. Xander and, especially, Anya initially in a mighty fine place.
And most especially Buffy, with a sparkling smile that she can't get rid of,
fully engaged in the events and people around her. Something that would
seem nigh on impossible such a short time ago.

I think this is nowhere clearer than her scenes with Xander and their simple
pure affection. "You're one of the decent ones, Xander." One of the sadder
parts of the season for me has been Buffy's estrangement from her friends.
But somewhere, maybe it was sitting on the bed with Willow at her lowest and
realizing that she had much the same kind of weakness within herself, maybe
not fully realizing it, Buffy forgave Willow for the spell that brought her
back and connected with Willow's life again. And she's closer to Tara than
she ever was. And now quietly re-affirming her love for Xander, her gallant
protector, the guardian of her heart.

Not exactly a return to the old days of musketeer like unity I know - I
think they've all grown up too much into their own lives to really pull that
off anymore. But the bonds tying Buffy to her friends remain, and it's nice
to see.

There are other interesting moments too. Xander and Willow sentimentally
remembering the fluke. "Your double X's don't look too bad there, either."
And of course the Buffy/Spike scene that you mention below.

All of it amidst the barely controlled chaos of an impending wedding with
the improbable mixing of families and friends that are strangers to each
other and so on that itself feels very true to me for that kind of scene.

With all the personal struggles thrown at all of our characters this
season - shortly to be more - it's worth pausing to appreciate the good
times offered. Not everything that happens to them is bad. And their
resilience keeps coming through.

Also, Anya's
vows are great - the first time, anyway.


They, and some of her comments around them, are a statement of what she has
made of herself - with Xander's assistance. A good dose of her amusing, yet
endearing quirkiness that makes her and these vows so funny. But they're
also a progression of understanding and appreciation for Xander and what
life has to offer. Her excitement over spending the rest of her life with
her best friend. And especially her final version of the vows.

Anya: Okay. For the last time. 'I, Anya, want to marry you, Xander,
because ... I love you and I'll always love you. And ... before I knew you,
I was like a completely different person. Not even a person, really ... and
I had seen what love could do to people, and it was ... hurt and sadness.
Alone was better. And then, suddenly there was you, and ... you knew me. You
saw me, and it was this ... thing. You make me feel safe and warm. So, I
get it now. I finally get love, Xander. I really do.'

This is Anya at her happiest - and you can see how thoroughly tied to Xander
that happiness is.... Recited as Xander miserably walks through the rain.
I wonder. Would it have made a difference if he could have heard that? Or
might it have only made it worse?

Then Xander gets a vision of the future. The nightmare scenario is a
very effective bit of storytelling. The slices of life show things
gradually get older and uglier over the years. Tantalizing little
details make this short sequence richer. Take NightmareScenario!Xander
(hereafter prefixed "NS!") being unable to work because of a failed
attempt to help Buffy against something unspecified. Hey, it's a
premise that ties into something that's been discussed in past X/A
scenes. Also, the vision ends with NS!Xander attacking and possibly
killing NS!Anya. That would be exactly Xander's worst fear at a time
like this, and it's the only thing that could... well, okay, nothing
could make the ending of HB work. (Hmm, does it seem like a certain
review is about to take a very sharp bitter turn?) But if anything
could, it'd be this.


And Anya cheating on him - with a demon. That it's a demon is as important
as the cheating.

While this is Xander's vision, built out of his fears, it's still worth
mentioning how a couple of things tie into Anya's own fears. (Xander is
probably well aware of those fears, so it's not so unreasonable for them to
make their way into his vision.) One is her fear of growing older and no
longer being desirable to Xander. Another being betrayal - the inevitable
betrayal that her past life taught her. From her vows, "I had seen what
love could do to people, and it was ... hurt and sadness." There is some
irony that she's the one who cheats in this vision.

Before we get to any bitter turnings, let me say that the episode had
me at this point, especially since the followup to "all they bring
each other is pain" is Buffy and Spike. They may be doomed to be one
of those couples who're more fun for me when they're pining for
each other than when they're actually together, since this is a great
little exchange, very well scripted and performed. Funny, but only in
a better-to-laugh-than-mope kinda way. "But it hurts?"
"Yeah." "Thanks."


Buffy's private, "You're welcome," that follows is the clincher for me. An
appreciation for what Spike did for her - in spite of the problems - that at
this point likely includes a sense of owing him. He's well earned whatever
little she can give him, even though that be nothing more than a sop to his
pride by being hurt that he brought a date.

I'm not sure why exactly you prefer the pining, but for me, that along with
their separation is when their relationship is honest. I'm not sure that
it's more stable than any other time, but it's the only time that they can
both express their true feelings, and squeeze in the most affection and
respect. And honest frustration.

After Xander and Willow share a best-friends moment, the show veers
into the realm of the generic with, sure enough, one of the pre-weds
running away and leaving the other at the altar. Ugh.


That reads to me as seeing only the generic events without the meaning
played out during them. This device is used so often because it's one of
life's greatest point of no return moments when one can no longer postpone
the decision. It's naturally dramatic with its own built in tension. It's
also nigh on impossible to replace with something else. That's just where
the dividing line rests.

So in choosing this scenario, they're just putting the drama in its proper
place, and more importantly, letting it do its work by itself while the real
story of why can be focused on without having to expend special effort on
where and when.

What makes the story not generic is the unique set of causes brought by
Xander and Anya. When we see Anya take her terrible walk at the end, that's
not a generic person left at the altar. That's Anya with the whole weight
of her shattered life worn on her face. A life we've followed intimately
for 3 years, and have come to love. One that's taken instantly from the
peak of her life to utter despair, with particular meaning unique to her.
Personal. Not generic.

It's a wedding. Weddings are automatically cliche practically by
definition. The cliche doesn't matter. It's what behind it that does.

I admit, and
I'm ashamed to do so, that I did laugh at Buffy's dissertation
about the mini-tor. As everyone should know, I generally dislike that
long-running gag of Buffy stammering out absurd excuses and having
people believe them. I think the sheer unadulterated excess is what
made it into a guilty laugh here. Otherwise, things quickly go awry as
our heroes have to hide the fact that something's wrong. Never been
fond of watching that stuff, even though HB keeps my goodwill a little
by showing it in bits and pieces rather than in long scenes.


I'm quite fond of Buffy's attempts to entertain the audience. The charades.
The juggling. I loved how Krelvin gallantly handed a ball to Buffy when she
dropped one of hers. There's a sweet humor to this in line with the things
I discussed above.

But by
the time everyone erupts into a big brawl, it's clear that the
episode has lost its way, wandering into uncomfortable barely-comedic
farce, which seems especially inappropriate given the heaviness of what
we've just seen. These sequences stick out in memory as the bulk of
the episode, regardless of how much actual time they take up, because
they feel very very very long.
Come to think of it, I'm going to take the stance that the
farce/drama balance is out of whack, since now I'm wondering if maybe
these scenes weren't even supposed to be that funny so much as a way
to look at Mr. Harris and compare/contrast with NS!Xander. This
didn't even occur to me until it was time to write the review.


I'm not sure what exactly you mean by that, but the fight *is*
representative of the core issues working to stop the marriage. The
horrible role models that are Xander's parents, and their disasterous
marriage. And the conflict between being demon and being human. So, no,
it's not just farce.

In the end we take a second to sabotage the drama we've built up by
having it just be an Evil Thing.


I'm curious. Did you buy into the idea that he was Xander's future self? I
really don't know how convincing that is. When I first saw this episode, I
had just started watching the series and understood very little of it. The
next time I saw it, I knew it wasn't really Xander all along.

At least the idea of having lots of
be-cursed monsters gunning for Anyanka is fine.


Ummm. And here we start my despair. The nature of this monster is a huge
deal. He's not just some evil thing. He's specifically Anya's creation.
Nor does his revelation sabotage the established drama. It complicates it
by bringing Anya into it as a cause.

We'll come back to that, but here's your subversion of the cliche. It's not
just Xander (the guy) working through his issues and walking out. We've
also got Anya's literal demon (Sunnydale - remember? - how many times are we
reminded of what the hellmouth does?) acting to sabotage the wedding.
Indeed, this demon is the proximate cause of the wedding not coming off. So
this version of the cliche has the girl left at the altar stopping the groom
from taking his vows via a monstrous representation of her own sordid past.

The fight scene is
pretty good, even if the demon-voice speech isn't. But then, since
the visions came out of Xander's fears, he then decides that it means
they shouldn't get married. Um...


Um. Sort of.

Words cannot adequately convey my distaste and contempt here, and
attempting to do so may only expose my weaknesses as a writer, but
I'm going to try my best. I don't buy this. Not for an instant.
The wedding is crashed by pure plot device, an external force altering
things for no adequate dramatic reason.


That would be the plot device that brings Anya into what goes wrong. Makes
the story about her issues as well as Xander's. The device that completely
muddles blame and even what's right.

Xander decides that his
deepest desire is to not do anything that could hurt Anya, so he rips
her heart out and sends her running back to D'Hoffryn. Yeah, I can
really see how his thought processes would work that way. Note my
employment of sarcasm, a rhetorical device in which a sentence is used
to express the opposite of its stated meaning.


I will try to avoid comparable sarcasm, for your position is hardly unique,
and is, I believe born of simply misunderstanding the real depths of this
story - even what it's about. Xander's story matters a lot. And he is the
vehicle for the terrible decision. But ultimately this story is more about
Anya than Xander. Not just what happens to Anya. But who she is. Xander
faces his own demons and tries to make a decision. Maybe bad. Maybe not.
But he's always known this about himself and does not walk out of this
wedding fundamentally different. Anya is confronted by her own literal
demon (both in the sense of what she created and the demon she once was),
can't handle it, is destroyed by it, and she walks out a demon.

Part of the hell of it is, S6 has attempted to set this up so that it
doesn't come out of nowhere, but it's been done so in such a
hopelessly inept manner that it'd be hilarious if it weren't
depressing. We've seen Xander get apprehensive about matrimony, and
then convincingly seen such fears written off as the perfectly normal
kind. Lately we've seen him get annoyed with the wedding, and then
we've been reminded that the wedding does not equal the marriage.
There's even OMWF, in which Xander's need for everything to be just
right causes that episode's single biggest flaw and is never properly
addressed. The end result is that the great fears that supposedly
shape this decision do in fact come out of nowhere, and are entirely
unconvincing.


OK. Let's look at the foundation for Xander's part. Starting with set up
elements that you observe above. I don't see you directly say it, but it
appears to me that you're implying that this set of pre-wedding jitters
doesn't add up to walking out. I agree. It doesn't. And it didn't. The
wedding was going to happen - until the demon entered the picture. By
themselves those worries weren't near enough to stop the wedding. Indeed,
on the whole I think they really were just jitters - and probably didn't
contribute much at all to his decision. With a couple of exceptions you
don't mention that I'll get to in a sec.

There is one generalized fear of commitment - best reflected in Xander's
reluctance to announce the engagement. That probably was largely founded on
Xander's deeper fears that come out in this episode, but at the time was too
generalized, too formless to actually stop anything.

Second, I think it's highly questionable how much he was really acting of
his own volition when he backed away. It's certainly impossible for the
decision to have been well reasoned. The man was the victim of powerful
magic that took his worst, darkest fears and made them come to life. Made
him live them as real. That's a profoundly shocking experience, still quite
fresh in his mind. There is no way that he can be close to past that so
quickly. No way that he can be rational about it. No way that he can be
anything but terrified at what's inside him. He tried to kill Anya with a
frying pan for heaven's sake. That's still running through his head when he
says he can't get married. Yes, I know he says the he understands the
visions weren't real and that he understands that it's something within him
and it's his fault and so on. But so what? Of course he says that. He's
being noble and taking the responsibility onto himself. But that doesn't
take away the powerful mojo just worked on him. I don't know how anybody
could go on with a wedding right after what he's gone through.

The proximate cause of Xander walking out rests squarely on that demon.
Without him the wedding goes on. With him it doesn't. It's the demon's
stated purpose and the result he achieves. Xander is just his agent - his
patsy. And that demon isn't the product of anything Xander has done. He's
the product of Anya's vengeance demon past. The wedding doesn't fail
because of Xander's loss of courage. It fails because a thousand years of
cruel acts of vengeance are finally catching up to Anya.

Everybody is in such a stew about not seeing this coming for Xander and
missing that it's Anya that broke up the wedding. That's the twist. And
it's a good one. Hell, even Anya hasn't figured it out yet.

Even so, the visions given to Xander do matter. Probably will continue to
affect him. Partly because you don't forget something like that. Partly
because they do illuminate his nature and his fears. And partly because the
message that marriage to Anya isn't a good idea likely is correct. Let's
look at Xanders' two core fears.

Becoming his parents - the one most directly shown in the visions. This is
the single biggest defining characteristic of Xander. People have already
pointed out some of the long standing references to that in BtVS going back
to S1. His dream in Restless where going upstairs - taking his parents'
path - isn't the way out for him. Sleeping outside on Christmas Eve to get
away from the yelling. Sitting with his friends in the basement pretending
not to hear the yelling, crashing and broken glass from upstairs. And
assorted other references. But these scattered mentions through the series
don't represent scattered incidents in his life. For him this was
pervasive. It was every day life growing up in the Harris household.
Xander's whole personality is built out of that experience and his fear of
becoming that himself.

You're right that this aspect of Xander is rather less than overtly
referenced in the lead up to the marriage - that most of the jitters exist
naturally in the way they would with anyone. We, the audience, don't really
need to see overt references to an established part of Xander's personality,
but that's not the excuse. I think it's really part of the story. Xander
moved out of the basement a little more than a year ago. Put physical
distance between himself and that awful environment. That's good - and
certainly has helped him grow up in a number of ways. But that doesn't mean
that this core aspect of him has just gone away. He's only 21 and has still
spent 90+% if his life living at home. He's nowhere near over that - he's
just pushed it out of his mind for a while. Enough to let him get married.
But a shock reference can bring it all flooding back in. The kind of shock
the demon provides. And the kind of shock of actually watching his parents
in their full drunken glory at his wedding. People keep looking for the
lead in clues to how this is going to ruin the wedding. But they've got it
backwards. It's the wedding that draws it out of Xander. His problem is
that he *wasn't* thinking about it - and probably should have been.

The thing about the visions isn't so much that they remind him of his fears.
Rather, the literal living of them, showed him like never before how
grounded those fears were. What he learned at the wedding is that he really
was capable of being that. It's no longer an abstract possibility. He felt
how naturally all of it came to him. The person in the visions is someone
he really could be. And until that moment he hadn't truly faced it. Hadn't
worked out how to stop that from happening. Perhaps it really would be wise
to come to better terms with his own nature before entering a marriage. I
don't know - nobody does - including Xander and Anya - how things really
would have worked out. Whether the marriage would have been a good bet.
But it's not a crazy reason to draw Xander up short.

The other issue is, "Am I marrying a demon?" - This is probably the lesser
of the immediate concerns for Xander. (Though crucial for Anya.) And one
that probably mainly manifests as being afraid that he can't accept Anya as
she really is - tying into the first fear, which includes turning on his
wife. But the core of it has always been can he - should he - cope with the
vengeance demon part of Anya. It's something he's dealt with every day that
he's known Anya since the prom date where she regaled him with vengeance
stories. All his efforts to show Anya how to be human are also about taking
her away from her demon background. But it never really goes away. She
talks about it frequently - even is proud of it. Just recently we heard
Anya speak of why demons are better than people. Xander may be a demon
magnet when it comes to women, but his normal instinct is still to grab the
weapons and go kill the demon. In that sense he's a decidedly odd one to be
living with an ex-vengeance demon. But, of course, Anya is mighty endearing
too, and he's learned to live with her strange background and way of
thinking that he often doesn't approve of - assuming he even gets it. But
the concern lurks.

And on this front there has been a big honking bit of foreshadowing that
goes by the name of Halfrek. You see, Xander knows *about* Anya's past.
But he doesn't know vengeance demons. Halfrek is a sight to behold. And,
of course, that's the first thing he latches onto. Is that what Anya looked
like? But it was never really about looks. The real question - is that
what Anya was? Look at their first encounter.

Halfrek: I have been called, and vengeance shall I wreak. Cower, masculine
one ... tremble as you face my wrath!
Anya: Xander, I'm starting to think that maybe we should do a pot-luck
thing.
Xander: Honey?
Halfrek: Hello. I am here to tear this man apart. How many pieces do you
wish?
Anya: Halfrek!
Halfrek: Anyanka? Oh my god!

Suggesting that he be torn in pieces I'm sure doesn't thrill Xander, but the
disturbing part is that Halfrek and Anya are clearly good friends thrilled
to see each other. Now he sees what Anya used to be. What she still
relates to. He wishes it ended there. But it didn't. Halfrek went on to
perform a nasty little piece of vengeance in Dawn's name that Xander had a
front row seat for. It was bad enough seeing Halfrek in action, and so
remorseless in attitude. (Justice demon? They all deserved this?) But the
real kicker is that Halfrek went merrily along with her vengeance even
though it caught up her friend Anya, in the process. Is that what Anya was
like too? Is that something still inside Anya? Is that a clue to what
could happen to him? Hmmm. Did Anya boot Halfrek from the guest list
afterwards?

That's why Halfrek is here. To show what Anya was and maybe still could be.
The thing about Anya is that as lovable as she can be, as much work as she's
put into being human, there still remains the question of how human she's
really become. Does she in fact get it? Xander's invested a lot in the
humanizing of Anya. The last thing he wants to believe is that he's come up
short. Especially not after all the genuine love he's received from her.
But, you know, sometimes love really isn't enough. Just look at Spike. And
Xander can't avoid the worry. Halfrek won't let him. All the crazy demons
at the wedding won't let him. The demon that Anya herself created, and
who's come back to ply his own vengeance directly on Xander won't let him.
The vision including Anya cheating on him with a demon won't let him.

And it shouldn't. This is the greater reason why they shouldn't marry.
It's Anya, much more so than Xander, that really isn't ready for marriage.
Because mentally, she never quite stopped being demon. Now it's true
physically as well.

Bottom line: this doesn't feel organic to the characters involved.

Look deeper.

This feels like the writers wanted yet another episode to end with
someone sobbing.


They wanted to take Anya where she needs to go.

I've pointed out a parallel between Anya and Spike before. Here is where it
comes to full flower. They each are or were immortals attempting to become
more human for the sake of love. They each used the object of their love as
their moral guide. They each made tremendous progress in their own fashion,
making themselves valuable and appreciated in their own way. But they both
fail in the end for the same reasons. The are unable to face their evil
demon sides and understand what's wrong with them. There's no guilt. No
remorse. No atonement. They just don't get it.

It's funny seeing all the outrage over the notion of letting Spike be
anything more than pure evil. But Anya was far more powerful than Spike,
and plied her trade far longer than him. What trail of blood and tears do
you suppose she has? Yes, Anya was made physically human and hasn't plied
her vengeance trade in years. But Spike hasn't been killing people either.
And Anya doesn't have Spike's excuse of no soul to explain her lack of
remorse.

Well, now it's Anya's turn for that to catch up with her. It's her sordid
past - literally - that has stepped forth to tear apart her wedding. She's
getting a taste of her own justice. And with all the wailing about how mean
Xander is to Anya, I must have missed the part where she told Xander that
any of this was her fault.

Anya was living a fairy tale. It was sweet and fun and even had a dashing
knight wooing her. Alas, it couldn't last. She was kidding herself and
everybody.

But Anya's is an epic tale - just like Spike. One that is not done. What
will Anya get out of this? Is she human? Or is she demon?

So...
One-sentence summary: All smoke and mirrors.
AOQ rating: Weak


I love Anya and Xander. As individuals. And as a couple. Their pairing is
my favorite of all BtVS (and AtS for that matter) couples. And the one I
think worked best for the couple - except maybe Spike and Dru. Their love
was true, and they gave so much too each other. Anya was incredibly
fortunate to have found Xander as a role model for living human. Anya so
desperately needed that, and Xander gave his heart and soul. It was a great
gift that can't be lost even through this. Anya gave much back to Xander
too. She made him a man in ways he didn't know was in him. He's so much
stronger for it than I think he believed he had a right to be.

I have no joy in such a bitter split. But I don't think it negates any of
what came before. What they had was as genuine as it gets in this series.
But I think it had to end. Anya has to find redemption. And Xander can't
take her there.

I'm sorry the episode offends you so much. It is possible to see it
otherwise. This is one of my favorite BtVS episodes ever. It's a tragic
end to a great part of this couple's lives, and a scary place to step
forward from. But it's thrilling drama to me.

OBS

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I jumped in with a comment saying how excellent the analysis was and also said:

I was half-expecting AOQ to give 'Hells Bells' an
Excellent, since he has in the past very much enjoyed episodes where
the angst is piled on (IWRY, 'Wild At Heart'). Funny how these things
turn out... :)

elisi
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To which OBS replied:

Yeah, but hardly anybody responds well to this. Xander's stated reason for
his decision is constructed to virtually assure loathing for him and what he
did. Leaving someone at the altar invokes a kind of automatic emotional
feeling that this is one of the great sins that man can commit - the kind
that has a special place in hell reserved for it. Xander's explanation by
itself is the kind that demands to know why he proposed in the first place
and built Anya's hopes and dreams to their highest conceivable point, where
tearing them down hurts the most, over something he should have known all
along. By normal standards it's just not a good enough reason to renege on
such a solemn promise.

I believe that's a deliberate construct in the writing. Maximum pain for
Anya. Maximum guilt for Xander. Maximum misdirect away from the other
underlying cause - the one with greater lasting implications. But I think
the writers may have done too good a job at it and somehow disguised the
elephant in the living room. I mean that was a literally larger than life
demon standing in the middle of the room for everybody to see and hear,
telling Anya directly that he's a victim of her vengeance returned to pay
her back by using Xander as a patsy to ruin her wedding. I think that
counts as in plain view. Yet everybody blames Xander. AOQ himself
describes it as Xander ripping out Anya's heart and sending her running to
D'Hoffryn.

I wonder what the writers think of this reaction. Did they expect it? It's
not like they didn't include things about the demon/human conflict in the
story past and present. I suppose that something like wanting people to
wear the traditional burlap and blood larva may be too amusing to recognize
as representing Anya's ongoing identification with demonhood. But it's
actually kind of blatant - practically blurting that she misses being a
demon. There's been a goodly amount of that of late what with going on
about why demons are better than people and being so buddy buddy with
Halfrek even though Hally is transparently trying to drive a wedge between
Anya and Xander.

At the wedding you've got a room literally divided between humans and demons
that breaks into a wild brawl. Pretty strong symbolism. But in case you
don't get it, Xander pulls Buffy aside so that he personally can kill the
demon with a ridiculously large blunt object. Do you think he might have an
issue with the demon part of Anya? And D'Hoffryn - the lord of all
vengeance - doesn't even mention Xander to Anya. He blames Anya. Says she
let them domesticate her and vengeance is where she belongs. Do you think
there might be an unresolved internal conflict of Anya's besides Xander?

And does anybody remember how she became a vengeance demon to begin with?
Might Anya have a wee problem with rejection perhaps? One that she's
obsessed over for as long as we've known her and whose grand plan for
dealing with it is for it never to happen again? The girl's got issues.

But Xander's poor attempt to explain and take on the burden of it being all
his fault somehow overwhelms all else and really does make it all his
fault - in other people's eyes at least. Did the writers intend that?

OBS
rahirah: (Default)

[personal profile] rahirah 2006-09-08 01:51 pm (UTC)(link)
I think the major problem is simply that Anya's evil past was usually played for laughs. Xander is seldom subject to the kind of moral condemnation for having a relationship with Anya that Buffy is subjected to for having a relationship with Spike. Xander sleeping with Anya is seen as no big deal. So when we're all of a sudden supposed to believe that Anya's past is so horrific that it prevents the wedding, it doesn't work--not because Anya's past isn't horrific, but because in the past that horror has been mostly played for comedy. Plus Xander's fears about his own worst self are text, while any fears he may have about Anya are subtext.

Like much of the last two seasons, it's not so much the concept that fails as the execution of that concept.

[identity profile] shadowscast.livejournal.com 2006-09-09 02:20 am (UTC)(link)
Nicely put!

I think the evil of Anya's whole vengeance-demon gig is never really taken seriously before "Selfless." And when it is, it's a shock.

[identity profile] ladycat713.livejournal.com 2006-09-08 02:15 pm (UTC)(link)
It's funny seeing all the outrage over the notion of letting Spike be
anything more than pure evil. But Anya was far more powerful than Spike,
and plied her trade far longer than him. What trail of blood and tears do
you suppose she has? Yes, Anya was made physically human and hasn't plied
her vengeance trade in years. But Spike hasn't been killing people either.
And Anya doesn't have Spike's excuse of no soul to explain her lack of
remorse.


True but these are the Scoobies led by Buffy who instantly forgave Angel once his soul was crammed back into him and Anya has the added bonus of having changed species as well. Plus part of what she did around them was erased when her necklace was broken so it's just a story to them. And unlike Spike she didn't have to follow in the footsteps of another worse vengeance demon the way Spike did with the damage Angel caused.

The non Buffy Scoobies didn't instantly forgive Angel but they certainly treated him a lot better than Spike who never killed one of thier own or tried to end the world.


The Scoobies prefer to live in denial and they can't really deal with anything that shakes thier worldview. To them soul good=no soul bad, human good=demon bad. Spike is demonized (so to speak) about the AR but Xander is allowed to pretend it never happened with his own AR of Buffy. His getting people killed by summoning the singing demon is never mentioned again even though there has to have been a lot of deaths judging by the firetrucks. It could have made some interesting turmoil character wise if someone he knew from work or somewhere else had mentioned a loved one going up in smoke and Xander breaking down later in guilt. Willow tries to end the world but is welcomed back in with open arms. I don't care how grief stricken someone is if they tried to off the planet(and came close to succeeding) I wouldn't want them back in my house with my little sister they threatened to unmake any time soon.

It would have been a better season 7 without all those unneeded characters around and we could've seen them deal with the evil caused by souled humans and and maybe a realization by Buffy that the soul's not the thing because it didn't stop Warren and it didn't keep Willow from trying to end the world (her love for Xander did that) .Plus then if Angel had shown up then they could've had someone say something about how Spike found a way to get a soul in very little time yet there's no indication that besides waiting to get the shanshu , Angel has expressed little interest in finding a way to anchor his soul.

And does anybody remember how she became a vengeance demon to begin with?
Might Anya have a wee problem with rejection perhaps? One that she's
obsessed over for as long as we've known her and whose grand plan for
dealing with it is for it never to happen again? The girl's got issues.


She was cheated on by her boyfriend/husband/lover and she turned him into a troll.

I thought I'd put my 2 cents in even if I'm a little uncertain who I'm putting it in to.I hope this is clearer than I think it is. I'm kinda sleepy.

[identity profile] jgracio.livejournal.com 2006-09-08 03:15 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm not sure what the writers were trying to do HB. And while the analysis of OBS makes sense, I simply don't know if that's what the writers were going for or simple angst, more angst for everyone. It helps that I don't hold the writers of BtVS as being anything close to perfect, very good sometimes, not so good other times.

Also, the demon character of Anya, which was pretty much always used for laughs, instead of seriously as Spike's was, makes it hard to see her as a serious character, one to be taken seriously. If that was the objective, well, flawed execution then.

[identity profile] lusciousxander.livejournal.com 2006-09-08 03:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Second, I think it's highly questionable how much he was really acting of
his own volition when he backed away. It's certainly impossible for the
decision to have been well reasoned. The man was the victim of powerful
magic that took his worst, darkest fears and made them come to life. Made
him live them as real. That's a profoundly shocking experience, still quite
fresh in his mind. There is no way that he can be close to past that so
quickly. No way that he can be rational about it. No way that he can be
anything but terrified at what's inside him. He tried to kill Anya with a
frying pan for heaven's sake. That's still running through his head when he
says he can't get married. Yes, I know he says the he understands the
visions weren't real and that he understands that it's something within him
and it's his fault and so on. But so what? Of course he says that. He's
being noble and taking the responsibility onto himself. But that doesn't
take away the powerful mojo just worked on him. I don't know how anybody
could go on with a wedding right after what he's gone through.


WORD! Thank you, OBS, people usually miss the fact that Xander has an awful home life which had a major role on his choice of canceling the wedding, it's funny when 21 year old Xander with his worst nightmare still fresh in his mind *must* pick the rational choice at that moment, I can't believe how people forget his bitter scared gaze at his parents fighting *before* he said "I don't wanna hurt you, not that way" to Anya.

Granted, Xander made a mistake by leaving his mess to Anya to deal with, but to say that Xander didn't take full responsibility for the wreck of their relationship is utterly wrong. He didn't *even* blame Anya's victim for violating his mind with all these visions. He took the whole responsibility on his shoulders, he apologized, he wanted to make things better. I say he was much of a man in handling this than he did with his break up with Cordelia.

Thank you so much for this amazing post, Elisi. I'm having it in my memories. ^_^

[identity profile] lusciousxander.livejournal.com 2006-09-16 11:30 am (UTC)(link)
Did you mean to say 'much more of a man'?

LOL, and I call myself a teacher. Well, I am a teacher, since last week, I teach 4th grade, but I suck at grammar. Hopefully I'll improve with time. *winks* Yes, I meant he is much more of a man in handling his situation with Anya than with Cordelia. Of course, he ruined it all in that last scene in Entropy *shakes head in disappointment*

(And I though you'd like this essay! *g*)

*g* Any Xander topic makes me happy. Except the ones about him being The Heart because I talked, and talked, and talked about that to the point of exploding. My fave Xander topic will always be the one about his attitude towards Spike and Angel. And I'm sick of people who think that just because Xander can't get Buffy, he doesn't want her with anyone. People! Open your eyes, please! Are you watching the same show I'm watching? What about Scott Hope, Riley, Richard, Wood, also Spike in season 7 post-Sleeper? I probably missed the jealousy and resentment from Xander towards these men, or you guys have the deleted scenes which are not included in the DVDs.

[identity profile] lusciousxander.livejournal.com 2006-09-18 11:41 am (UTC)(link)
Oh but I love that scene! "It's good enough for Buffy." is one of my favourite lines *ever*. And the fact that Xander says that Anya makes him feel sick because she slept with a 'soulless evil thing' - when this is now what she is herself - that's irony for you. It ain't nice, and it ain't pretty, but by god it is good tv!

Totally with you. I actually love the scene. Amazing acting as well as writing. Nice turns of plot, and Xander scared the hell out me, lol, way more than Angelus. Nicholas Brendon did his best work in that scene. The emotions played nicely in his face, (Few Xander fans like Xander's jerk moments, but I adore them, because Nick plays an amazing jerk guy. As Joss said, he has more edge than his character requires)

My fave line was "The mature solution is for you to spend your whole life telling stupid, pointless jokes, so that no one will notice that you are just a scared, insecure little boy!" After six years, someone actually yells the truth. Right after this Xander's days of joking stopped. Not only that but thankfully he started talking about his feelings to diffrent people, instead of hiding them.

You know this scene shows how much of his father Xander is. If there was any proof that his choice to stop the wedding was right it's this scene.

[identity profile] aycheb.livejournal.com 2006-09-08 03:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you for posting this!

Those AOQ threads grow so big, so erratically, that I end up missing half the good stuff. I loved what OBS said about it being a last chance to see everyone momentarily happy together, I hadn’t really though about it that way but, yes. Also a fan of Hell’s Bells but I never hated Xander for what he did.

The thing about the visions isn't so much that they remind him of his fears. Rather, the literal living of them, showed him like never before how grounded those fears were.

I agree with everything OBS says about there being no set up for Xander’s real fears in the lead up to the wedding (or for that matter in his song in OMWF) and I think like him that that was good writing, the reasons why he couldn’t marry her were the reasons he asked her to do it, she was his way out of the basement and he’s hoped he’s left that place behind him. But he hadn’t.

People had been complaining throughout the season about how dismissive Xander was of Anya. Here he got to see exactly how that might pan out, both in the visions and by watching his father putting down his mother. That shot when he looks over from Anya to see the two of them fighting - he was almost persuaded by her argument that the demon visions were just a trick and then he saw they weren’t. However, the way that sequence plays suggests that although the episode raises the idea that the wedding not happening is karma for Anya, the writers were saving that issue for later (it ended up being addressed quite brilliantly in Selfless, notably after there’d been some exploration of the less funny side of Anya’s past). I think this episode was about Xander, his demons not hers. But it still made my heart hurt for both of them.
ext_7351: (S/B kiss the sky)

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/_jems_/ 2006-09-08 03:56 pm (UTC)(link)
I get the argument, I do, and I think that Xander probably did the right thing when he called off the wedding. But in the end I still go "you suck, Xander", because he walks out and leaves Anya to deal with the consequences of his decision. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth that doesn't wash out over the next 28 episodes, and even colors how I view the X/A relationship on rewatch. You wanna be a man who doesn't hurt the woman you love? How about starting right away instead of walking away?

[identity profile] lusciousxander.livejournal.com 2006-09-08 04:30 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree that he did a bad action by leaving, not by cancelling the wedding of course because that was actually wise. However, didn't he try to fix the damage? First thing he asked about when he came back was "Where's Anya?" meaning he wanted to fix it. He told her sorry many times, he asked her to get back with him so he can fix it, he tried to start things over, but Anya didn't want to. She wanted to hurt him like he hurt her, which is understandable, but that doesn't mean that Xander didn't try to fix things. He tried, Anya said no, he's gone through depression, no one was winning.

His actions were wrong but his intentions were good, he didn't want to hurt her like his father hurt his mother, his mind was a mess, it's hard to expect him to act *rational* when he'd been through hell. Granted, that doesn't excuse his actions, and leaving Anya at the altar *also* doesn't excuse Anya becoming a demon again and trying to curse Xander. Both Xander and Anya did something wrong, differnce is Xander tried to fix the damage, Anya didn't try to fix her damage until Selfless.

[identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com 2006-09-08 04:24 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm sorry. Still not convinced by this one. I didn't end "Hell's Bells" by hating Xander, but the followup to this episode, in which he refuses to discuss his fears and why he walked out in the first place left me with little sympathy. Anya's lovely wedding vows also did not show an unrepentant demon chortling over her past. They showed someone daring to trust a man after 1,000 years of believing they all deserved vengeance, and... oops! Kind of depressing message there about love in general, aside from any possible subtexts about the specific characters.

I also didn't find a lot of the funny stuff all that funny. It was too awkward and painful. And kind of creepy, too, in spots, such as the scene were Xander goes "I've still got, what, fifteen, twenty minutes" (considering the content of his nightmare vision, I'm supposed to believe he's not serious there?), and the way Buffy just kills that guy Anya took vengeance on, and then they make jokes about covering the body with flowers. Um, ugh? A few too many mixed messages there.

[identity profile] lusciousxander.livejournal.com 2006-09-08 04:40 pm (UTC)(link)
I didn't end "Hell's Bells" by hating Xander, but the followup to this episode, in which he refuses to discuss his fears and why he walked out in the first place left me with little sympathy.

When did he refuse to talk about it later? He took full responsibility for his actions and that alone made him a noble man for me, instead of blaming Anya for the wreck, he blamed himself, even though Anya's victim played a major part in ruining the wedding. I'm positively sure Xander would have gone through with it if he didn't live through his worst nightmare.

As for the jokes, the show is full of disturbing situations being joked about, like Anya trying to get Xander's friends to wish something against him. That was played for comedy, but it was awfully horrible when you think about it, especially listening to Anya's wishes. Granted, Anya is in pain and we all wish awful stuff on the people that hurt us, but the fact that she *knew* they may come true, makes Anya an awful person in comparison of Xander who left her because he didn't want to hurt her.

[identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com 2006-09-08 05:05 pm (UTC)(link)
When did he refuse to talk about it later? He took full responsibility for his actions and that alone made him a noble man for me, instead of blaming Anya for the wreck, he blamed himself, even though Anya's victim played a major part in ruining the wedding. I'm positively sure Xander would have gone through with it if he didn't live through his worst nightmare.

See, this gets into "Entropy," and all the hedging - he's doing great with his apology, and "I want to take away the hurt," and then she asks him a point-blank question about whether or not he wants to get married. Bearing in mind that he had been the one to originally propose, that she'd called him on being afraid of going ahead with the engagement early in S6... at that point, he had the opportunity to tell her what it was that he was afraid of, and didn't. He doesn't talk about it. He doesn't tell her why. He just says "I'm not ready." So... yeah, I get that he blamed himself, but do I think he owed Anya a real explanation after he waited to the maximum heartbreak moment to realize he wasn't ready? Yes, I still think so.

Did Anya's vengeance victim spoil the wedding? Of course, and in that case, I point to the scriptwriting really dropping the ball on not making it clear we were supposed to see this as Anya's just desserts, if that's what we were indeed meant to think. Although I'm at a loss, personally, to see how you'd wrangle that, exactly, since if the cursed man's vengeance is justified, then what was so wrong with Anya's original vengeance wish? Vengeance is just? Or is it unjust? Is it a matter of degrees? To me, that was a crucial question that was pretty thoroughly glossed over.

As for the jokes, the show is full of disturbing situations being joked about, like Anya trying to get Xander's friends to wish something against him. That was played for comedy, but it was awfully horrible when you think about it, especially listening to Anya's wishes

This falls under that metaphorical-monsters-versus-real-ones debate - Anya's wishes are the metaphorical monsters, obviously horrible, but their main purpose is to present us with an exaggeration of her feelings. She's hurt enough to want Xander dead. Okay. But Xander's joke, even if I look at it as metaphor, means that he's already thinking about Buffy as a first choice over Anya before he gets his nightmare vision. It's the sort of thing that dilutes my impression of him doing the walkout for Anya's own good. He's terrified, and I get that he's terrified, but him putting it as "I don't want to hurt you" in the context of his dream... that's pushing a noble motive on something that really seemed to be more about his fear.

[identity profile] lusciousxander.livejournal.com 2006-09-08 06:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Do I think he owed Anya a real explanation after he waited to the maximum heartbreak moment to realize he wasn't ready? Yes.

One of Xander's worst qualities is that he keeps his feelings for himself, he rarely tells people about how he feels, his problems, his need for help. The only time I remember Xander opening up to someone was when he mentioned to Andrew that he did something bad to Anya and that it left him empty, which was actually good, but I wish he talked about it to someone who cared like Buffy or Willow or even Anya.

Now about Xander explaining himself, I've often saw him as a bad explainer, he has good intentions but he doesn't know how to explain them, like when he went to Faith in Consequences to help her, he couldn't explain himself right and Faith misunderstood him for coming to have sex.

As for the conversation, Xander's answer to Anya's "Do you want us to get married?" was: Someday, yes, very much. When we're ready. I don't want you to take this as a bad thing. It's good. I love you, I love you so much, I'm just trying to be honest with you.

It wasn't only Xander's mishandling of it that ruined it, Anya also didn't seem to listen to him. He was talking about how guilty he was and how he wanted to do things right while she was focused on casting disturbing vengeance on him. Then she's angry that her vengeance didn't work and storms out without trying to work things with him.

if the cursed man's vengeance is justified, then what was so wrong with Anya's original vengeance wish? Vengeance is just? Or is it unjust? Is it a matter of degrees?


I'm not sure I get you here, do you mean that the cursed man was justified in ruining Anya's wedding?

She's hurt enough to want Xander dead.

That's fine, but the fact that she'll *make* it happen is wrong no matter how hurt she was. Just like when Cordelia dumped Xander, and he wanted to humiliate her in return, he was hurt but his actions are still wrong.

But Xander's joke, even if I look at it as metaphor, means that he's already thinking about Buffy as a first choice over Anya before he gets his nightmare vision.

I actually laughed at that joke because it was just that: a joke. Xander does seem to put Buffy and Willow in a high level, even higher than the level Buffy and Willow put him in, that's probably because Xander considers them family while they consider him just a friend. Looking at his home life and desperate need for a family and Buffy and Willow were the only ones who showed him that love, "I don't know what I would do without you and Will," he said to Buffy in Seeing Red, it's not a shock that Buffy and Willow will rank so high in his heart and mind.

but him putting it as "I don't want to hurt you" in the context of his dream... that's pushing a noble motive on something that really seemed to be more about his fear.

Xander's lack of a role model is probably what had made him this insecure, and believing that he'll turn out into the monster of his father. His dream in Restless gives a great insight into his fear of his father. The first question Xander asked when the visions ended, "What did I do? Did I hurt her?" So it's clear that Anya is the reason he called off the wedding for, he didn't want to hurt her. He didn't want to turn into his father, but his choice was wrong. Walking away made him his father, losing himself into depression, drinking all the time, yelling insults at Anya, beating Spike who can't defend himself, all that made Xander his father, all that was probably what his father did to him and his mother.

Xander is a decent guy, but needs someone to guide him, sadly no one tried to, even Anya was too happy to have a boyfriend and didn't call Xander on his flaws, which is something she *should* have done. How can he shape into a man if no one would point out his mistakes? Xander only started to grow up when Anya yelled, "The mature solution is for you to spend your whole life telling stupid, pointless jokes, so that no one will notice that you are just a scared, insecure little boy!" What a fine man Xander would have turned out to be if Anya had yelled that at him before.

[identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com 2006-09-08 09:38 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't want you to get the idea that I'm a Xander-hater - I'm not - or that I don't get what you're saying here about his motivations and character, which all sound perfectly accurate to me. But a couple of things:

It wasn't only Xander's mishandling of it that ruined it, Anya also didn't seem to listen to him.

On one hand, I'd have to give points to that conversation in "Entropy" for successfully replicating how people in such a situation would talk - after all, they do have different priorities at that moment. Anya shows up there to talk to him, but she isn't hearing what she needs to hear. Xander wants to make things right, but doesn't know how. Still, the ball is really in Xander's court there - Anya IS the wronged party. After being humilated at the altar, she doesn't actually owe him an honest listen. He's the one who needs to be eating crow, he knows it, and there's actually a wonderful little pause in that conversation right before he gives his cagey answer that shows that he also knows that he's flubbing it, right at that exact second. "Entropy," hideously painful as it is, is terribly well done. But it doesn't make Xander come out looking like roses, and I don't think we're meant to see that as Anya's fault.

I'm not sure I get you here, do you mean that the cursed man was justified in ruining Anya's wedding?

I mean that the very idea of a Vengeance Demon, who made her career out of getting revenge on the behalf of wronged women is a terribly potent symbol that wasn't dealt with at all in the case of "Hell's Bells," and that's actually the biggest thing I'd have to ding the episode for. The episode is mostly about Xander, and his fear of becoming his abusive father. Anya's old Vengeance Victim is just a catalyst to set things off, because HE wants revenge for something that Anya did to him. The woman that man must've originally wronged is just as invisible to that equation as the Phantom Nightmare Anya that the guy dreams up for Xander to worry about. So you get a story about how men cause women pain, never mind the reason, and you know? That was kind of what Anya's vows were about. That she'd thought she'd found a love that wasn't like that.

even Anya was too happy to have a boyfriend and didn't call Xander on his flaws, which is something she *should* have done. How can he shape into a man if no one would point out his mistakes?

Umm... I gotta say, this one kinda bothers me. Why isn't it Xander's job to fix Xander? Anya does point out his flaws - she's perfectly blunt with him their entire relationship - and yet still loves him... that's a problem? He has issues with himself that he doesn't share, and that's no one's fault but his own. Blaming Anya for not criticizing him enough? I can't really follow you around that bend.

[identity profile] lusciousxander.livejournal.com 2006-09-09 12:33 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't want you to get the idea that I'm a Xander-hater - I'm not - or that I don't get what you're saying here about his motivations and character, which all sound perfectly accurate to me.

No, it's alright, your points are so accurate and make sense. Xander haters don't make sense, they just hate him blindly. If you're interested, I'm writing a one act of five scenes play about fans and bashers, I finished the Xander scene and now I'm writing the Spike scene :)

Still, the ball is really in Xander's court there - Anya IS the wronged party. After being humilated at the altar, she doesn't actually owe him an honest listen.

But how is he going to explain if she wasn't all ears? I agree with you that he's probably not saying what she wants to hear, but as he said, he's being honest, he's not ready right now but once he's ready, he will marry her. I wish he had explained *why* he's not ready instead of the many "I love you"s and "I'm sorry"s he kept repeating over and over.

Actually I feel for Anya in that scene, she's the wronged party, hurt, humiliated. But even though she's hurt, I just can't excuse her attempts to kill Xander later. I know what they represent, but still, her attempts to kill him aren't metaphoric, they're real. If vengeance demons can grant wishes for themselves, we'd have ended up with a world where Xander doesn't exist. Can you imagine how scary that'd be? Erasing Xander's whole existence? So even though I sympathize with Anya a lot, I just can't excuse her actions in Entropy. (The killing attempts, not sleeping with Spike.)

IMHO, I never really liked the whole vengeance demons deal. The storyline is amazing, but the concept itself I don't support. Are we meant to think that vengeance demons give justice? On the contrary, I think they're as evil as vampires, even if they actually grant wishes to the wronged people. People should be given a second chance, just like Buffy gave Spike a second chance, just like Oz gave Willow a second chance, and both Spike and Willow stayed faithful because they were given a chance to mend their mistakes.

It just occurred to me that Xander was never given a second chance, not with Cordy or Anya. Interesting.

Blaming Anya for not criticizing him enough?

I'm not blaming Anya, I'm just saying that if his lame jokes which he uses to hide his pain bother her, she should have said so. She shouldn't just embrace that flaw, because keeping fears and pain inside is not healthy. I've never been a fan of accepting your partner even with his/her flaws. If someone had a flaw that bothered me, I'd just say it, and tell him that this is not the way to go.

Xander doesn't really know he's flawed sadly, he's like some people I know, who make mistakes over and over but they don't *know* that their behavior is wrong. Should I let them act that way? No, I'd tell them alone that people don't act that way, and they should behave better around others. You can't learn everything by yourself sometimes, some people learn their flaws from others and try to be better with the help of others.

Like when Xander learned that he needed to tell Anya that he loved her, how did he learn? From Buffy pointing out that Anya is convenient to Xander, that he doesn't love her. The fact that Buffy pointed out Xander's mistake followed by the wreck of Buffy and Riley's relationship which began with Riley's insecurity about Buffy's love for him made Xander realize that if he didn't act fast, he'll lose Anya. So he made the right move and told her he loved her, and all thanks to Buffy.

[identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com 2006-09-09 04:50 pm (UTC)(link)
See, the good thing about this conversation is that you're making me feel like appreciating the more nuanced points in X/A relationship, whereas if I just focus on the wedding episode, I end up seething. : )

I'm writing a one act of five scenes play about fans and bashers, I finished the Xander scene and now I'm writing the Spike scene

Hah! I'd love to see it. Does Xander walk into a room and announce that he hates all demons? ; )

IMHO, I never really liked the whole vengeance demons deal. The storyline is amazing, but the concept itself I don't support. Are we meant to think that vengeance demons give justice? On the contrary, I think they're as evil as vampires, even if they actually grant wishes to the wronged people.

I agree completely with this, and that's actually why this storyline pisses me off. I felt there was a huge point waiting to be made about how vengeance is a really bad thing that, to my mind, never really got made. In "The Wish," where vengeance demons are introduced, Cordelia doesn't even realize that what she's saying could come true. Anya is essentially an evil genie, like the monster-genie in The Wishmaster, who's just there to take advantage of people when they're feeling and rash and hurtful and doesn't even care if the wish backfires on the wisher. "The Wish" is about hurtful feelings taking on a life of their own, and it's only becuase Buffy is involved in the wish that the spell gets broken it all. It's one of those great early-season episodes that shows how Buffy and her friends together have a better chance of defeating monsters because of teamwork, because now we've seen what happens when there IS no team.

So I don't think Anya's vengeance wishes were ever meant to be seen as good or just - Halfrek's preference for "justice demon" felt more like a joke about PC address (a little borderline tasteless there, if you take that comparison too seriously) - but yes, I do believe in second chances. Which is why is was so shocking when Anya then consciously made her wishes to hurt Xander, and tried to encourage others to do so. But then, what was the point there, in playing that for laughs, that female rage is amusing when there's no teeth in it? Ha ha ha, she can't get no satisfaction? Um, yuck.

So... yeah, I got some issues with the way the vengeance issue was handled - or not handled - in Season 6. There was so much hurtfulness going around, and the team was so fractured, and yet all we really got was the DarkWillow story in which she got her vengeance on Warren in an admittedly gross but still not far enough off from the average action movie to really drive the point home that this was bad. No one mourned for Warren. It really feels to me like there a dropped thread there, about how vengeance creates tears in life's fabric that can't be repaired, that really wasn't picked up again until Season 7's "Selfless."

Xander doesn't really know he's flawed sadly, he's like some people I know, who make mistakes over and over but they don't *know* that their behavior is wrong.

Ah, I see. I think this is one of those cases where just little difference in how you see the character makes for a big interpretation change - I'd always seen Anya's line in "Entropy," about how he jokes to cover his insecurity, as the sort of thing she hadn't thought of to put into words until that exact moment. The kind of thing you really don't see until you're hurt enough, and then everything looks different. Likewise, I'd always figured that Xander pretty much knew he used humor to cover his insecurities, but as it was the only thing he thought he had going for him, being the "funny" guy, he had no incentive to stop.

And I do very much love that scene in "Into the Woods" where he tells Anya he loves her. It was one of those Season 5 moments where I really loved Xander, because even though he was getting in Buffy's face, he at least managed to turn that around and apply it to his own life, to take his own advice.

[identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com 2006-09-09 05:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Good point! That's actually why I never had a problem with the complete illogic of Angel's gypsy curse - if the point was to make him suffer, and anyone around him who might comfort and support him in his souled state, then it does make a certain sense, in that destroying-everything-in-its-path sort of way. For justice, I think you need rules and the agreement of society that this is a fair thing. Vengeance, by definition, would not be fair; it would be extreme and out-of-proportion, causing more damage than it heals.

This is why I think the vengeance demon concept spoke to me so strongly on a feminist level - are demons drawn especially to wronged women because they can't typically get justice? Hmmm...

[identity profile] lusciousxander.livejournal.com 2006-09-09 06:17 pm (UTC)(link)

Hah! I'd love to see it. Does Xander walk into a room and announce that he hates all demons? ; )

Here it is: http://lusciousxander.livejournal.com/32108.html#cutid1

Although it's more about Xander's biggest fan and basher debating, warning: They're so awful! lol

that really wasn't picked up again until Season 7's "Selfless."


Selfless is my favorite episode in season seven, I just love it to death! An amazing character study episode for Anya, just as amazing as Fool For Love. It also had the Scoobies being friends again, more development in the Willow-Anya relationship (They've always been the female Spander to me), the mention of Xander's lie, a Xander-Buffy fight (I'm a big fan of those, especially that they ususally drop all their anger when they're faced with danger, and work together to defeat it even though few minutes ago they were fighting. Kinda like me and my sister: We fight then few seconds later we talk normally as if nothing happened, we never said sorry to each other after any fight but we seem to forget all about it after few seconds of silence) and eventually the last scene between Xander and Anya which was just amazing, I actually heart it more than the one in Into The Woods.

Something I wanted to mention about Anya's character before Hell's Bells. I think one of the things I disliked about her, Spike and Tara is that they idolized their lovers to the point of being in denial most of the time when it came to their lovers' mistakes. In some way Anya, Spike and Tara were Xander, Buffy and Willow's sheep. Anya started to see Xander's flaws after the not-wedding, Tara started to see Willow's flaws after All The Way, Spike started to see Buffy's flaws somewhere during season six, even though in a way, I believe Spike still idolized her.

That said, I do remember some occasions where Anya had criticized Xander, but I think they were more said in an innocent tactless way than her actually wanting to hurt Xander's feelings.

[identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com 2006-09-13 05:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Thanks for the link! I have to say, you really captured the way the character-hater and character-lover end up making equally offensive arguments to support their claims. Brrrr....

I do remember some occasions where Anya had criticized Xander, but I think they were more said in an innocent tactless way than her actually wanting to hurt Xander's feelings.

I'm still not 100% with you on this thou-must-criticize stance, although I see what you're saying about a lover or partner being too accepting and willing to look the other way - these are the building blocks of which the codependency house are built, and you can definitely see a lot of that in Spuffy, although I'm also not 100% sure that codependency was even being condemned by the writers all of the time. ("Touched," in S7, really hit that nerve for me - so what Buffy really needs is unconditional support to feel good about herself? Um...) But I've seen criticism taken too far, too - the kind of thing were the husband makes acerbic comments about the wife eating dessert, because isn't she fat enough? There were shades of that in Xander's dream in "Hell's Bells," so that too, is a danger in a relationship, blurring that line between hurtful commentary and loving concern. Ultimately, I don't think anyone actually wants to be hurtful to someone they love, nor should they. But that has to go both ways.

[identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com 2006-09-13 07:19 pm (UTC)(link)
No worries! : ) For my own 'shipper purposes, I do very much place that speech as you point out here, as an example of how Spike at his best tends to shore Buffy up, at the very least remind her that she's not alone.

But! There's still the way his speech ends up getting a little bit confusing as a followup to Buffy's ejection from her house in "Empty Places." I mean, what is it that Buffy's supposed to be lacking there, followers who will just do what she's asking without question, or simple self-confidence? I know it's meant to be the latter, but there's a place where those two ideas overlap that still bugs on me from a thematic standpoint. Like so much of S7, I keep feeling like there's the edge of a really intense idea there, hovering just out of reach, something about the relationship between leaders and followers and how it maps to more personal relationships, but... it never really came through for me. The idea of Buffy-as-leader, that dynamic, is still something I'm interested in, but the only place left to explore it anymore is in fic.

[identity profile] lusciousxander.livejournal.com 2006-09-14 08:56 am (UTC)(link)
Thanks for the link! I have to say, you really captured the way the character-hater and character-lover end up making equally offensive arguments to support their claims. Brrrr....

Thank you so much! The Spike one is done if you wanna read it :D Last post I made in my LJ.

I'm still not 100% with you on this thou-must-criticize stance, although I see what you're saying about a lover or partner being too accepting and willing to look the other way -

I'm not really into criticizing, I mean if your lover is doing something wrong, you gotta tell them, that's what I'm for. Look at Tara and Willow, Tara knew that Willow was doing something wrong when she wanted to do the spell to bring Buffy back. When Xander objected that it was wrong, Tara said yes it was, then she was 'accusing' Xander of backing out. I mean she knew it was wrong, she already told Dawn it was, but since it was *Willow*, then everything is okay. *That's* what I'm against. Tara was told twice by Xander in different episodes that Willow is doing something wrong but Tara would still be in denial because she loves Willow so much.

As for criticizing, I'm against Xander's criticizing of Buffy in some episodes. He was too angry and would just hurt her. Sometimes he has a point like when he said, "You're gonna forget all about Miss. Calendar's murder to get your boyfriend back." He was right, but his way of saying it just screams JERK.

I think what I mean by good criticizing is Xander's way of telling Anya that humans don't say "Go Away" they say "Have a nice day." The way he said it, the "That's my girl!" after she listened to him. That's sweet and nice and right. He wasn't hurting her feelings, and he really wanted her to fit in and thinking of her benifit.

[identity profile] morgantree.livejournal.com 2006-09-08 06:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Again, Elisi, thanks so much for giving us another incredible piece of analysis by One Bit Shy.

I think I want to marry him.
yourlibrarian: Angel and Lindsey (LyinginWait: r_becca)

[personal profile] yourlibrarian 2006-09-16 03:42 am (UTC)(link)
Such a lot of interesting points, both OBS's post and the discussion here.