Why the scene between the Doctor and [spoiler] was perfect!

[elisi]

So, Jack. On first view, the Cantina scene struck me as brilliant (obviously) but very short. See my favourite Jack-meets-the-Doctor-post-CoE fic is Even the Damned - a story set in a bar (of course), and featuring a long and excellent conversation between the Doctor and Jack, culminating in the Doctor imparting his wisdom with these words:

***

"It's the one fundamental right of sentient beings, to love each other."

Jack looked up at those dark, inhuman eyes, so familiar and so strange. He felt . . . something. Something that stirred in the terrible emptiness and ashes that had filled his chest for months now.

The Doctor raised his eyebrows slightly, the puppyish cast it gave his face almost jarringly out of place with the subject matter under discussion. "Even the damned love," the Doctor told him with dead certainty. "And even the damned can be loved."

***

And the more I think about it, the more I'm realising that the scene we got gives us that *exactly*. That one little note communicates a whole wealth of different things:

1) I forgive you. Because Jack won't forgive himself:

Gwen: "It’s wasn’t your fault."
Jack: "I think it was. Stephen and Ianto. And Tosh and Owen and Suzie and... All of them. Because of me."

The Doctor knows exactly what Jack is going through, and because of who he is, and what he means to Jack, he can hopefully help Jack to begin to come to terms with what he did.

2) It's OK to move on.

The Doctor: "You can spend the rest of your life with me. But I can't spend the rest of mine with you. I have to live on. Alone."

Ianto: "So... one day, you'll see me die of old age. And just keep going."
Jack: "Yeah."

But the Doctor found Martha - and Donna. (And River and Astrid and...) And they didn't diminish his feelings for Rose at all. Writing this, it strikes me that the way the Doctor lost Rose isn't too dissimilar to how Jack lost Ianto - neither partner willing to leave the man they loved to fight alone.

3) Don't be alone. This might be the most important lesson that the Doctor is trying to impart. He thought that the pain of losing people was too big a price to pay, and tried the lonely life - and discovered that he *needed* someone. [to stop him] Being alone isn't better.

4) I'm sorry. For everything that's happened to him, probably...

The Doctor: "I’m sorry, but I can’t! Sometimes I can. Sometimes I do. Most times I can save someone or anyone. But not you."

I'm not sure this is all immediately obvious to Jack - but, presuming he develops an actual relationship with Alonso, it'll all become clear... Because Alonso isn't just a pretty face. He's sweet and honest and kindhearted and brave - a genuinely *good* person, I think I can safely say. Not to mention one who has helped the Doctor save the day! And I think it'll mean the world to Jack that *this* was who the Doctor set him up with. He probably expected anger or disappointment ("Everything Torchwood did and you’re part of it?!") - but much worse. Instead he gets a gift that I'm sure he feels he doesn't deserve. But I'm sure it's what he needs.

Jack/Ianto was a wonderfully complex and complicated 'ship, because they were both such damaged and secretive people. Or, to borrow a quote from the_royal_anna:

But my other love story is this one: that when you're broken, sometimes the only thing you have that isn't broken are the relationships that keep hold of you even when you can’t keep hold of them.

They kept me spellbound for three seasons, and I'd have watched them for 10 more, happily. However, at the point Jack is now, he needs something different. As JB said - he went back to the stars to see if he could learn to love again. And Alonso could, hopefully, be the first step on the way.

And this leads me to a slightly different topic... I don't really hang out in the TW fandom much, but I've been told that people are pretty OK with Jack/Alonso. Now as a hardcore Jack/Ianto 'shipper, who was *heartbroken* when Ianto died and very apprehensive about a S4 of TW (partly because of a possible new love-interest for Jack) I shall give my perspective. Because I think Jack/Alonso is just lovely.

I think it's because Alonso isn't a character specifically created to be a love-interest. Those kinds of characters don't tend to work very well, just look at Riley or Kennedy. But Alonso is his own character, with his own story and background, and doesn't depend on Jack for his existence.

I'm still not quite sold on TW S4 (CoE carried such finality, it felt like the ending of the 'verse), but I'm more optimistic now. I would LOVE to see Alonso as a regular (or just doing a guest appearance), although I've no idea how he'd fit in...

Comments

[spikewriter]

Interesting thinky thoughts (hey, it's early). I looked at the moment in the bar as the start of Jack's healing, that this was the moment when he was willing to open himself up again. Because Jack's like the Doctor in that way: he long outlives those he loves and he knows he's going to have to do that. In a sense, the Doctor's saying, "Don't be alone." (Hopefully, the Doctor himself has learned that lesson.)

I didn't see Alonso as being a new regular for TW S4 (for one thing, I think Russell Tovey has other irons in the fire), but I was glad for that moment of healing and Jack looking much happier at the end of the scene than he had at the beginning.

Thinking another thing, though, if you take the idea that the woman on the platform was Susan, the Doctor's granddaughter (and the woman in white who appears to Wilf the White Guardian taking Susan's form), then we have an interesting thread here. The Doctor condemned his own granddaughter to destruction along with Gallifrey to stop the Time War. Jack caused the death of his grandson to save the children of the world. And although Wilf has Donna, he knows how much she's lost by losing her memories of the Doctor. In some ways, it's the sins of the fathers coming to rest on the children.

But the scene in the bar was marvelous, the Doctor just barely touching Jack's life once more. Plus, drunken adipose, which is always fun.

[elisi]

Interesting thinky thoughts (hey, it's early).
Thank you! And you're very lucid - especially considering the hour!

I looked at the moment in the bar as the start of Jack's healing, that this was the moment when he was willing to open himself up again.
Yes, exactly. It would have come sooner or later, I'm sure, but having the Doctor's 'permission' to start living again made an awful big difference I'm sure!

Because Jack's like the Doctor in that way: he long outlives those he loves and he knows he's going to have to do that.
Exactly. (They *must* end up together, surely...)

In a sense, the Doctor's saying, "Don't be alone." (Hopefully, the Doctor himself has learned that lesson.)
You know, I think he has. Regenerating probably helped, but in that first conversation with Wilf he acknowledged that being alone wasn't working out.

I didn't see Alonso as being a new regular for TW S4 (for one thing, I think Russell Tovey has other irons in the fire)
Oh I'll be VERY surprised if he's signed up (although a guest-spot would be nice).

but I was glad for that moment of healing and Jack looking much happier at the end of the scene than he had at the beginning.
Same here! :)

The Doctor condemned his own granddaughter to destruction along with Gallifrey to stop the Time War. Jack caused the death of his grandson to save the children of the world. In some ways, it's the sins of the fathers coming to rest on the children.
I really like this theme, grim as it is. Because thinking about it outside of the shows it is very important - what kind of world are we leaving for the next generation? What sins will they have to pay for?

But the scene in the bar was marvelous, the Doctor just barely touching Jack's life once more.
*nods* And although brief, it'll have a huge impact - far greater than any of the other encounters. (Not that saving people from Sontarans or oncoming traffic is not important, but the Doctor is, hopefully, helping Jack to turn his whole life around.)

Plus, drunken adipose, which is always fun.
Amen! :)

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

The Doctor condemned his own granddaughter to destruction along with Gallifrey to stop the Time War. Jack caused the death of his grandson to save the children of the world

Apologies for butting in to your comment, but that thought just intrigues me.

And you are so, so right about the drunken adipose!

[elisi]

Apologies for butting in to your comment, but that thought just intrigues me.
It's been a bad year for grandchildren...

[lostakasha.livejournal.com]

Loved this to bits.

I'm my still-developing DW brain, I'm thinking that the cantina visit may be a significant step in bringing Jack back to his destiny as The Face of Boe. Mind you, I'm still working things about as a newcomer to the fandom, and I'm not afraid to be totally off base. :)

It seems to me that Jack clings to the Doctor because he is his Doctor, his mentor, his object of deepest love and admiration, his soul, in a way. So perhaps that moment of grace in the cantina is what pulls Jack out of the abyss, and starts him on the way to become truly connected to the Doctor (in becoming TFOB). I'm really crummy at this meta stuff. I'm going back to work. Stay warm!

[elisi]

Loved this to bits.
*beams* It's just been going in circles in my head - I'm surprised it turned out so well. :)

Not sure I quite get your point about TFOB (why does he need the Doctor in order to become TFOB?), but I'm glad it works for you! :)

[gillo]

I loved that scene too, though the show had as many endings as LotR! I doubt if Russell Tovey would be available to film a whole TW series, but he might do cameos. (And a passing squee here about

Being Human

back on Sunday!) And Jack beginning to heal allows for a better intro to a new series.

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

Being Human is back Sunday? Squee!

[gillo]

It is indeed. Definitely squeeworthy!

[elisi]

I loved that scene too, though the show had as many endings as LotR!
The more endings the better imho! ;)

I doubt if Russell Tovey would be available to film a whole TW series, but he might do cameos.
Cameos would be lovely - esp since I can't really imagine what he'd *do* in Torchwood...

And a passing squee here about Being Human back on Sunday!
*squees with you*

And Jack beginning to heal allows for a better intro to a new series.
It definitely does, even if this glimpse is all we get. I'm choosing to loon on S4 of TW much like S5 of DW - it's regenerated and so it's a different shows swaggering off, wearing Old!TW's memories...

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

I've been wondering how they can possibly do a season 4 of TW. Are they officially planning one, or are you just speculating?

I can't see them actually having Alonzo as a full-time character on TW due to his Being Human commitments, but maybe he could be recurring. I'm assuming that if Jack is back he'll be back after lengthy walkabout, so Alonzo could be new backstory... maybe a few visits? Works for me!

I still can't quite see how they'll pull it off as Gwen is the only one left, and she'll have a new baby. I suppose they could set it in the future a bit, and recruit a whole new team...

[elisi]

I've been wondering how they can possibly do a season 4 of TW. Are they officially planning one, or are you just speculating?
I'm pretty sure it's official. No idea what RTD's got planned though. (As I said to gillo above, I'll look on it as if it's regenrated: Same memories, different show.)

I can't see them actually having Alonzo as a full-time character on TW due to his Being Human commitments, but maybe he could be recurring. I'm assuming that if Jack is back he'll be back after lengthy walkabout, so Alonzo could be new backstory... maybe a few visits? Works for me!
Same here! :)

I still can't quite see how they'll pull it off as Gwen is the only one left, and she'll have a new baby. I suppose they could set it in the future a bit, and recruit a whole new team...
Well there's Lois to take Ianto's job, and Johnson might join... Guess we'll have to wait and see. *is still in mourning for Ianto*

[dameruth.livejournal.com]

Hullo -- thanks for the fic rec. :) *waves*

FWIW, I thought the Cantina scene in EoT was pretty darn good, too, given that I thought we'd be getting nada (or close to it) in canon. I do love how it seems to have been everyone's assumption (even RTD's!) that Jack would end up in a bar somewhere. XD

I liked Jack/Alonso, too, despite being yet another sad Jack/Ianto shipper. Really, when you have a character like Jack who will literally live forever, it's just too darn depressing to think of him never finding someone else to be with. Also, Alonso is a good choice, even if it doesn't turn into a long-lasting thing.

[elisi]

Hullo -- thanks for the fic rec. :) *waves*
Oh TOTALLY my pleasure. *waves back*

FWIW, I thought the Cantina scene in EoT was pretty darn good, too, given that I thought we'd be getting nada (or close to it) in canon
*nods* Your fic is like the *ideal*, but I knew we'd never get that. So to be able to look at what we *did* get and realise that it does a lot of the things we wished for (and more besides - selenak pointed out how it subverts two long running gags: One, the Doctor's "Stop it" and Two, the fact that Jack always salutes the Doctor) is just marvellous! (Why yes, I *do* love convoluted sentences!)

I do love how it seems to have been everyone's assumption (even RTD's!) that Jack would end up in a bar somewhere. XD
It just goes to show how well we all know Jack! :)

I liked Jack/Alonso, too, despite being yet another sad Jack/Ianto shipper. Really, when you have a character like Jack who will literally live forever, it's just too darn depressing to think of him never finding someone else to be with.
*nods* Jack breaks my heart far too much!

Also, Alonso is a good choice, even if it doesn't turn into a long-lasting thing.
My thoughts exactly. Because he oviously *does* have his own life, and won't make Jack his whole world. (I loved that about Ianto, but this should be different!)

[crossoverman.livejournal.com]

Here via selenak.

Great meta! I thought that scene was really well played and you got to the heart of why - it's forgiveness and permission to move on.

And I think the same thing - I'm more optimistic about TW Season 4 now, since I wasn't that in love with Jack running away even though I understood why he did it. I felt like CoE was a good ending - and fit so perfectly with the theme of the series: you don't leave Torchwood until you die. But a new series of TW would be interesting with a somewhat healed Jack... and Gwen in charge!

And a guest spot for Alonso would be awesome :D

[elisi]

Great meta! I thought that scene was really well played and you got to the heart of why - it's forgiveness and permission to move on.
Thank you! It quite literally wouldn't leave me alone until I'd written it down.

And I think the same thing - I'm more optimistic about TW Season 4 now, since I wasn't that in love with Jack running away even though I understood why he did it.
*nods* Even if this scene is all we get, then at least it is a bridge of sorts, showing the beginning of the process of healing.

I felt like CoE was a good ending - and fit so perfectly with the theme of the series: you don't leave Torchwood until you die.
Oh yes - CoE was the perfect ending. I'm still not sure *now* they'll resurrect it, although I'll look on it more as a regeneration than a continuation (if that makes sense).

But a new series of TW would be interesting with a somewhat healed Jack... and Gwen in charge!
Hmmm. We'll have to wait and see...

And a guest spot for Alonso would be awesome :D
He could come in and save the day! :)

[robling-t.livejournal.com]

But Alonso is his own character, with his own story and background, and doesn't depend on Jack for his existence.

This; after Ianto, the viewer is going to need someone in that position who can demonstrate that he has his own identity and isn't merely a substitute or a sop being thrown to the audience 'cos Jack Needs Sex. Whatever Jack gets into has to be a relationship that offers visible contrast to what we've seen before, and that requires either an independently-established character like Alonso or establishing a character before involving them with Jack, not just walking in with "oh, and here's Generic Boyfriend Unit #562, let me show you him" from Jack's perspective.

[elisi]

Also, in Alonso's case, we *know* that he's a pretty awesome person - the writer doesn't have to 'sell' him, something which tends to backfire 9 times out of 10 when trying to introduce a new character. At least when that character is replacing another.

Sorry - it's late and my brain is frazzled. Glad you enjoyed my thoughts! :)