![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Entry tags:
Touched.
Well colour me stunned! AOQ gave 'Touched' an 'Excellent'. And not just that, but it also finally made him see the point of Spuffy:
Spike still has his obsessive faith (no pun intended) in Buffy, so he hunts her down to try to spark a little civil war. The resulting conversation... well, to say the least, it's impressive. It dances through Faith, how much of this Buffy has brought upon herself, the B/S arc from S6, identity as a Slayer and as a person, and makes it all seem like a cohesive train of thought. Buffy's so certain, such a convincing speechmaker, even when talking about depression and uncertainty. For his part, Spike says some of the wrong things (i.e. "connecting") and even in his monologue towards the end he can't always stay on topic, but Buffy does the favor of listening to the complete thought, and everyone's the better for it. As is so often the case, the actors deserve a good part of the credit for making it work so well, especially for the facial expressions, right down to Spike's "is this for real?" look that closes the scene. All in all, the outpouring of honest sentiment ranks among the series highlights. It's been quite a journey for them getting to this point, considering how things started, and how convincing this feels.
Just talking from a personal standpoint, I've always been resistant to a B/S relationship, despite liking both characters a lot. Part of it was that unsouled Spike was more interesting and consistent with the show's mythology when he was more evil. Ergo, it was degrading to Buffy's character to be with him, and discounting the crazier "shippers," I don't think the series ever intended to let us forget that. It's a big part of why "Crush" and "Dead Things" worked. Then it took a few episodes before I adjusted to S7 Spike as his own man. Another aspect is that I've never been a fan of couples that physically fight all the time, "cutely" or violently, nor with any semblance of using rape as a way show how much the misunderstood guy really cares. And through all this, I was feeling Angel's absence hanging over everything. Now? After "Touched," I think I can finally pledge my full support to the idea of putting these two back together... depending on what the show wants to do, of course.
Just wow. But - I have a few thoughts of my own...
Don't have a lot to say about the Faith & The Potentials side of things. It moves everything along, they come up with a good plan, First!Mayor is brilliant and all the sex comes across as just the sort of thing people do when things are desperate - they reach out for each other. Connect. Touch.
But about Buffy and Spike... now when I watch I just turn into a complete sap. It's not the speech (although it's wonderful, and I'll get to that in a minute). It's "Will you just hold me?" The implications of that moment are so deep, and build on so much, that I can't begin to explain what it means to me. So I won't even try - instead I'll focus on the speech:
1) It's a faint echo of Riley's speech in AYW. That bit never worked for me in AYW, because Riley got dumped into the story with no knowledge of what was happening, told Buffy "So your life sucks - hey, you're still a special lady!" and promptly vanished. It gave Buffy the incentive/strength to break up with Spike, but it didn't really change anything beyond that - two episodes later she was trying to kill her friends. Now in 'Touched' Spike has been around for years and years, knowing *exactly* what Buffy's been through and is actually able to make a real, permanent difference to her with his words.
2) It's a parallel to Riley's declaration of love in 'The Replacement'. I've dealt with that before in this post, and for now all I'll do is quote![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
scarlettgirl's reply:
The difference is that with Riley, his love was hinged on Buffy making him feel a certain set of emotions. When he no longer felt he was getting his emotional fix from Buffy he made the choice to end the relationship.
With Spike, whether he was getting the emotional validation from Buffy that he craved or whether she was beating him into the pavement and making him feel like dust, HE STILL LOVED HER. His love was not based on emotional feedback.
Riley loved Buffy and the way Buffy made him feel. Spike loved Buffy despite how Buffy made him feel.
Spike wins.
(Of course it's perfectly reasonable to want the person you're in a relationship with to love you back, and Riley was justified in leaving. But he also admitted defeat when doing so.)
3) It's a mirror of Buffy's speech to Spike in 'Never Leave Me', whichawmp has written about. Check it out, it's wonderful! And it demonstrates perfectly what is so wonderful about S7 Spuffy - they make each other stronger. As Hunter Maxin put it:
Spike does what Angel never did, never could, and never tried. Spike makes her stronger. Spike gives her faith. Spike gives her a reason to win.
4) This one is new - I only just thought of it. Spike's speech is the perfect response to Buffy's dilemma in CWDP. Remember her superiority/inferiority complex? Spike gets past it:
Buffy: 'Cause even though they love me, it doesn't mean anything 'cause their opinions don't matter. They don't know. They haven't been through what I've been through. They're not the slayer. I am. Sometimes I feel - this is awful - I feel like I'm better than them. Superior.
Spike: I’ve been alive a bit longer than you and dead a lot longer than that. I’ve seen things you couldn’t imagine and done things I’d prefer you didn’t. I don’t exactly have a reputation for being a thinker. I follow my blood which doesn’t exactly rush in the direction of my brain so I make a lot of mistakes. A lot of wrong bloody calls. A hundred plus years and there’s only one thing I’ve ever been sure of. You.
Here Spike puts himself in the superior position. He's older, he's been trough more things, and while that doesn't make him better in any way, he can pull rank as it were.
Holden: All chosen. All destiny. Who could live with that for seven years and not feel superior?
Buffy: I'm not. My God, if anything, I -
Holden: What?
Buffy: I just - if you knew what I've done, what I've let myself become. My best friends don't even - You'd laugh, you heard some of the things I've done to them. [...] I have all this power. I didn't ask for it. I don't deserve it. [...] I feel like I'm worse than anyone. Honestly, I'm beneath them. My friends, my boyfriends. I feel like I'm not worthy of their love.
Spike: I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I’ve seen your kindness and your strength. I’ve seen the best and the worst of you and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You are a hell of a woman. You’re the one, Buffy.
And then Spike can lift her up again: He's seen it all. The good, the bad, the really, really ugly. Riley might have said 'None of that touches you', but what did he know? Spike on the other hand can say it, knowing that Buffy has to take him seriously. He isn't a lovestruck Angel, or a clueless Riley. He's Spike - the one who tried to pull her into the darkness, but who can also acknowledge that her light still shines brightly. So brightly that it brought him out from the dark and into the light.
Spike still has his obsessive faith (no pun intended) in Buffy, so he hunts her down to try to spark a little civil war. The resulting conversation... well, to say the least, it's impressive. It dances through Faith, how much of this Buffy has brought upon herself, the B/S arc from S6, identity as a Slayer and as a person, and makes it all seem like a cohesive train of thought. Buffy's so certain, such a convincing speechmaker, even when talking about depression and uncertainty. For his part, Spike says some of the wrong things (i.e. "connecting") and even in his monologue towards the end he can't always stay on topic, but Buffy does the favor of listening to the complete thought, and everyone's the better for it. As is so often the case, the actors deserve a good part of the credit for making it work so well, especially for the facial expressions, right down to Spike's "is this for real?" look that closes the scene. All in all, the outpouring of honest sentiment ranks among the series highlights. It's been quite a journey for them getting to this point, considering how things started, and how convincing this feels.
Just talking from a personal standpoint, I've always been resistant to a B/S relationship, despite liking both characters a lot. Part of it was that unsouled Spike was more interesting and consistent with the show's mythology when he was more evil. Ergo, it was degrading to Buffy's character to be with him, and discounting the crazier "shippers," I don't think the series ever intended to let us forget that. It's a big part of why "Crush" and "Dead Things" worked. Then it took a few episodes before I adjusted to S7 Spike as his own man. Another aspect is that I've never been a fan of couples that physically fight all the time, "cutely" or violently, nor with any semblance of using rape as a way show how much the misunderstood guy really cares. And through all this, I was feeling Angel's absence hanging over everything. Now? After "Touched," I think I can finally pledge my full support to the idea of putting these two back together... depending on what the show wants to do, of course.
Just wow. But - I have a few thoughts of my own...
Don't have a lot to say about the Faith & The Potentials side of things. It moves everything along, they come up with a good plan, First!Mayor is brilliant and all the sex comes across as just the sort of thing people do when things are desperate - they reach out for each other. Connect. Touch.
But about Buffy and Spike... now when I watch I just turn into a complete sap. It's not the speech (although it's wonderful, and I'll get to that in a minute). It's "Will you just hold me?" The implications of that moment are so deep, and build on so much, that I can't begin to explain what it means to me. So I won't even try - instead I'll focus on the speech:
1) It's a faint echo of Riley's speech in AYW. That bit never worked for me in AYW, because Riley got dumped into the story with no knowledge of what was happening, told Buffy "So your life sucks - hey, you're still a special lady!" and promptly vanished. It gave Buffy the incentive/strength to break up with Spike, but it didn't really change anything beyond that - two episodes later she was trying to kill her friends. Now in 'Touched' Spike has been around for years and years, knowing *exactly* what Buffy's been through and is actually able to make a real, permanent difference to her with his words.
2) It's a parallel to Riley's declaration of love in 'The Replacement'. I've dealt with that before in this post, and for now all I'll do is quote
scarlettgirl's reply:The difference is that with Riley, his love was hinged on Buffy making him feel a certain set of emotions. When he no longer felt he was getting his emotional fix from Buffy he made the choice to end the relationship.
With Spike, whether he was getting the emotional validation from Buffy that he craved or whether she was beating him into the pavement and making him feel like dust, HE STILL LOVED HER. His love was not based on emotional feedback.
Riley loved Buffy and the way Buffy made him feel. Spike loved Buffy despite how Buffy made him feel.
Spike wins.
(Of course it's perfectly reasonable to want the person you're in a relationship with to love you back, and Riley was justified in leaving. But he also admitted defeat when doing so.)
3) It's a mirror of Buffy's speech to Spike in 'Never Leave Me', which
awmp has written about. Check it out, it's wonderful! And it demonstrates perfectly what is so wonderful about S7 Spuffy - they make each other stronger. As Hunter Maxin put it:Spike does what Angel never did, never could, and never tried. Spike makes her stronger. Spike gives her faith. Spike gives her a reason to win.
4) This one is new - I only just thought of it. Spike's speech is the perfect response to Buffy's dilemma in CWDP. Remember her superiority/inferiority complex? Spike gets past it:
Buffy: 'Cause even though they love me, it doesn't mean anything 'cause their opinions don't matter. They don't know. They haven't been through what I've been through. They're not the slayer. I am. Sometimes I feel - this is awful - I feel like I'm better than them. Superior.
Spike: I’ve been alive a bit longer than you and dead a lot longer than that. I’ve seen things you couldn’t imagine and done things I’d prefer you didn’t. I don’t exactly have a reputation for being a thinker. I follow my blood which doesn’t exactly rush in the direction of my brain so I make a lot of mistakes. A lot of wrong bloody calls. A hundred plus years and there’s only one thing I’ve ever been sure of. You.
Here Spike puts himself in the superior position. He's older, he's been trough more things, and while that doesn't make him better in any way, he can pull rank as it were.
Holden: All chosen. All destiny. Who could live with that for seven years and not feel superior?
Buffy: I'm not. My God, if anything, I -
Holden: What?
Buffy: I just - if you knew what I've done, what I've let myself become. My best friends don't even - You'd laugh, you heard some of the things I've done to them. [...] I have all this power. I didn't ask for it. I don't deserve it. [...] I feel like I'm worse than anyone. Honestly, I'm beneath them. My friends, my boyfriends. I feel like I'm not worthy of their love.
Spike: I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I’ve seen your kindness and your strength. I’ve seen the best and the worst of you and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You are a hell of a woman. You’re the one, Buffy.
And then Spike can lift her up again: He's seen it all. The good, the bad, the really, really ugly. Riley might have said 'None of that touches you', but what did he know? Spike on the other hand can say it, knowing that Buffy has to take him seriously. He isn't a lovestruck Angel, or a clueless Riley. He's Spike - the one who tried to pull her into the darkness, but who can also acknowledge that her light still shines brightly. So brightly that it brought him out from the dark and into the light.
no subject
I love season 7 Spuffy too. It took me a while but I do. It's even better when someone very opposed to the relationship like this AOQ bloke comes round to it.
Am interested to know what the reaction of that insane Spike-hater was - assuming he's stuck around.
no subject
Another candidate for worst episode of the entire series. There's very
little here except wall-to-wall pandering to the hard core Spike fans.
First, we see that the entire reason for everyone dropping Buffy as
leader was so Joss could show that Spike is the only one she can count
on for support, so the Spike fen could sigh happily and say "Look!
Everyone in Buffy's house is an ungrateful little bitch who doesn't
appreciate her, but Spike does! He's the best, most perfect man ever!"
Then we have three incredibly awkward and uncomfortable sex scenes
whose only purpose is to show how much more "romantic" Buffy and Spike
are as a couple because they sleep together without having sex.
And finally, it's Spike who gives Buffy the strength and confidence to
go face Caleb. Aw, isn't it sweet? I guess the message Joss is sending
here is that women should take back their abusive boyfriends because
they're really great people who can be good sources of strength and
support.
And even though Faith had a better plan than Buffy (better, because she
actually *had* a plan, unlike Buffy), the writers decreed that it
couldn't work because she (and everyone else) needed to be punished for
not following Buffy on her suicide mission. So, yay for Buffy. Writer
fiat FTW.
It's hard to believe that a show that used to be so good could get
*this* bad. It's mind-boggling, really.
no subject
It's also hard to believe that anyone who hated the whole thing so much hasn't long since gone off to do something a bit more useful with his time than witter endlessly on about how the BtVS writers messed up (because the story didn't go the way he wanted it to go).
no subject
no subject
no subject
> I find it hard to believe you persist in posting about something you
> hate.
*shrug* Maybe I just feel the need to introduce a different point of
view into the overwhelming lovefest these review threads have become?
Ah well. It's his funeral!
no subject
no subject
It's funny, because his fiance has loved the Spuffy stuff, whereas he has been a bit more sceptical - he never hated it or anything, but mostly commented on how it couldn't really become anything while Spike was still evil, and he was very cautious at the beginning of S7. I am *so* happy that he has finally been able to understand why it works so well. :)
no subject
Those Spike-haters must be so cross. Bet they thought they were going to recruit him.
Something else that cheered me up a while back is that my friend Sueworld2003 posts on a Doctor Who forum and there was a boy there - quite young, I think - who was watching BtVS/AtS for the first time. He started off loathing Spike - couldn't stand him in season 2. Both Sue and I thought that seemed a poor look-out, because blokes do usually like evil Spike even if they can't sant him later on. However, when Sue went back and checked after this boy had finished watching the whole series, he'd come round to Spike and in fact thought him the best character in the show.
Hoorah!
no subject
Just a bit! *g* The rest of us are being remarkably restained I must admit! Not a single 'Na-na-na-na-na!'
Hoorah!
Hoorah indeed! *is very pleased*
no subject
Just a bit! *g* The rest of us are being remarkably restained I must admit! Not a single 'Na-na-na-na-na!'
Ah, well, it's easy to do when you know you've won. I try to tell myself that when there are Bangels around too