Thoughts on 'The Wish'.

[elisi]

Watched ‘The Wish’ last night - and what do you know? Some rambling followed.

This episode is a fascinating look at the characters... it made me think an awful lot. Originally I just wanted to watch it for Buffy - all this talk of how Buffy turned into a complete bitch in later seasons - how much of a basis is there for that theory in ‘The Wish’? Not sure if I actually came to any conclusions, but here are my thoughts - ordered by character:


The Master: I never really liked him in S1, but here he’s delightful - the scene where he drinks what I presume is blood out of a teeny little cappuccino cup? Adored it. It’s all about the power for him, and I think in some ways his outlook is very much like Wolfram & Hart - lets use what the humans have created to destroy the world.

Willow: Vamp!Willow is interesting - she was obviously vamped when she was still shy, little nerdy Willow and is very playful - enjoying her power, enjoying being everything she was not. Very much like William actually. She’s let all the stuff she suppressed come to the surface. But although she is deviant and very unpleasant I didn’t find her all that scary - comparing her with Dark!Willow she's a much lighter baddie, if you can see what I mean. Dark!Willow is full of anger and hate and rage - she doesn’t play. Willow went through a lot in the years that separate her from Vamp!Willow and it shows - there is a darkness to her that’s very different.

Xander: Oh, Xander - now him I found chilling. NB does nasty very, very well. We saw some of it in ‘The Pack’, but it’s fully fledged here. Vamp!Xander is not playful - he’s more calculating. He enjoys watching. All the daftness of human Xander have vanished, leaving a cold, brutal killer. Vamp!Xander is an Angelus in the making, and under the guidance of The Master he would have been exceptional. All of which made me wonder - where is all that in human Xander? It’s a side we rarely - if ever - see. Which I guess is something that ties him to Angel again... who - looking at Liam - could have guessed at what lay inside?

Angel: I don’t know if I could have loved Angel more in this episode. I mean look at this bit of dialogue:
Angel: I waited. I waited here for you. But you never... I was supposed to help you. [...] The Master rose. He let me live... to punish me. I kept hoping maybe you'd come. My destiny.
My destiny!!!!! I just wanted to hug him. The only character to be *exactly* the same! ::loves:: (I don’t think I can say any more - I mean what more is there to say? Except that he looked really hot! Mmmm, eye candy!)

Buffy: Oh, but she’s an interesting one. This is Buffy without friends and family - Buffy the Vampire Slayer with everything stripped away. Buffy who’s only the Slayer, not the girl as well. But it’s fascinating to see how ‘Buffy’ she is anyway:

She doesn’t take orders - is not an obedient little Slayer like Kendra:
Giles (on the phone to Buffy’s Watcher): Yes, I understand, but it's imperative that I see her. Here. (listens) Well... when will you? (listens) Yeah, well, you are her Watcher. I'd expect her to at least check in to...
She doesn’t sit around waiting, she makes a plan and implements it straight away. She’s good at taking advantage of unexpected help (Angel). And very good at slaying of course.

It’s the other things that stand out though:
Buffy: World is what it is. We fight. We die. Wishing doesn't change that.
She’s very weary and disillusioned. She doesn't have Faith’s joy of life. She slays because that’s what she’s good at - it’s her duty, her life. If she met Dracula and he told her she was a killer, she’d just shrug. Of course she’s a killer.

How does she compare to S6 - S7 Buffy? I’m not sure... There is a hardness to her, that we very seldom see on the show. The real Buffy is torn - in ‘Selfless’ she shuts down into that hard core, so she can kill Anya - but Wishverse Buffy would never need to - she’s there already. Which of course gets her killed. Because Spike was right (as he very often is) - it’s her ties to the world that keep her alive. And in S6 and S7 she fights very hard to keep hold of those ties - to keep hold of her life. She can be harsh and cruel when she gets desperate, but I think this is because of who she is and what she is. There is that hard core inside her that she can fall back on - if she has to, she can strip everything away. And it isn’t pretty, but it gets the job done. And that’s what matters. It’s how she killed Angel.

But I don't think that she wants to be that Buffy - the cold, cruel one. She wants to be happy and to be loved. It's just that as life gets harder and harder, and her calling continually forces her to maker ever more difficult choices, she has to fight all the more to keep hold of Buffy-the-girl.


Did any of that make sense? I just feel like I was waffling. Now I’d love for all you clever people to bring up lots of excellent points that I’d never even though of. :)

Comments

[shapinglight]

Don't know if I really have anything to add - great analysis, especially of Buffy and Xander.

I think we see very little of that controlling aspect on Xander on the show, but it does emerge somewhat in the way he views the women in his life - all of them - as being his somehow. Of course, all the women in his life are more powerful than he is, so that dark side of him never gets a chance to come out.

[elisi]

all the women in his life are more powerful than he is, so that dark side of him never gets a chance to come out.
That's a good point. I guess we see a bit of it in 'The Zeppo' - and he can be incredibly cruel ('Seeing Red', 'Selfless') when hurt. It's more of a dormant thing I suppose... although maybe one reason he's often so nasty to Spike is that Spike's someone 'lower' than him - someone he has power over. Hmmm, interesting.

[shapinglight]

There's definitely a nasty element of bullying in Xander's behaviour towards Spike in season 6- especially in Normal Again and Entropy. It comes across as that he feels bad because of what happened with Anya and he just takes his feelings out on the one person he knows can't fight back. He's his father's son after all.

However, instead of dealing with this, ME chose to bury it, which was sort of sad. I'd rather have seen Xander acknowledge it and deal - which needn't have meant apologising to Spike or anything. Maybe we're supposed to take the fact that he didn't behave that way in season 7 as him dealing with it, I don't know.

[kathyh]

Fascinating analysis. I loved your points about the differences in Vamp!Willow and Dark!Willow and this

Vamp!Xander is an Angelus in the making, and under the guidance of The Master he would have been exceptional. All of which made me wonder - where is all that in human Xander? It’s a side we rarely - if ever - see. Which I guess is something that ties him to Angel again... who - looking at Liam - could have guessed at what lay inside?

That's really interesting. I've never thought of similarities between Xander and Liam, but I wonder if their common characteristic is anger. Xander buries it, but it is there, and it can burst out in some quite nasty ways i.e. with Buffy in Dead Man's Party and Anya and Spike in Entropy. Liam always strikes me as an angry young man too, both with his father and with his life.

[elisi]

I wonder if their common characteristic is anger.
Hmmm, good point. Liam was of course a lot older - could Xander have ended up the same way? It's quite possible, if he hadn't had his friends. If we look at Liam in 'Spin the Bottle' he's a much more innocent as a teenager - but with a lot of anger - particularly aimed at his father.

I knew someone would have something clever to say about it.

[kathyh]

but with a lot of anger - particularly aimed at his father.

Yup, they both had huge father issues. As you say though Xander had his friends and it doesn't appear as if Liam did.

I knew someone would have something clever to say about it.

I never have anything clever to say!

[fishsanwitt]

I'm waiting for the all the clever people too :)

This made *perfect* sense. I love it when you dissect an episode. It makes me want to go and watch the episodes again.

Thank you! ::hugs::

[elisi]

I'm waiting for the all the clever people too :)
Heeeee! :)

This made *perfect* sense. I love it when you dissect an episode.
Squee! *Thank you*! ::smiles:: (and many hugs to you too!)

[annabelle528.livejournal.com]

I don't have anything to add, but I love reading your ideas and everyone else's insightful comments. :)

[elisi]

Thanks for commenting. :)

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Great analysis of the characters in the Wish, very perceptive.

I think you've really nailed the difference between Vamp and Dark!Willow. Vamp!Willow is a good girl playing at being bad, there's a world of difference in what she and Dark!Willow mean by "Bored Now".

She slays because that’s what she’s good at - it’s her duty, her life. If she met Dracula and he told her she was a killer, she’d just shrug.
Exactly and the difference between her and post-resurrection Buffy is that even in the depths of S6 she wasn't indifferent to being called a demon/killer.

I'd like to defend Xander a little, he seems to acquiring underdog status in the comments. I thought he was actually pretty tolerant of Spike in S6 until he sees him with Anya and righteous or not I think he would've been just as angry if it had been Riley. When Xander's angry he lashes out, much like Spike in LMPTM, but his anger is a rather blunter instrument, he reverts to his father's style. One difference I can see between Wishverse Xander and Angelus is that Xander as in real life doesn't seem to want to be a leader. But your point about him watching is quite chilling given what he says about seeing everything in Potential.

[sp23.livejournal.com]

I thought he was actually pretty tolerant of Spike in S6 until he sees him with Anya and righteous or not I think he would've been just as angry if it had been Riley

Oh, I can't agree with this at all. I could never see Xander taking after Riley with an axe! He would have been incredibly hurt (even though he didn't have a leg to stand on since he was the one that called off the wedding), possibly angry, but not insane. It was the fact that Anya was with Spike that set him off. His tolerance of Spike in S6 was pretty limited, too. He didn't waste any time kicking Spike to the curb in Afterlife. Spike was acceptable when Spike was useful.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Not an axe but a gun maybe if one were handy. And as with the axe he might've got as far as pointing it but he turned out to be looking for a fight not a kill or why be upset when Spike wouldn't fight back? I'm not sure about the kicking him to the curb in Afterlife - it seemed more that he hadn't thought how Willow's secrecy would affect Spike until then and actually seemed a little abashed. Neither Spike or Xander seemed to care much for each other, they were tolerant that's all.

[elisi]

He didn't waste any time kicking Spike to the curb in Afterlife.
I think aycheb is right that Xander lashes out when he's hurting. In the 'Afterlife' scene, he's very worried that they screwed up Buffy's resurrection - so when he sees Spike, he jumps at the opportunity to justify himself. Later though, he voices Spike's point about concequences to Tara... (also of course there's all his lingering Angel issues that he quite happily transfers to Spike).

In 'Entropy' he would probably have reacted differently if it was, say, Riley. But because it's Spike he can give vent to all his built-up frustration. Spike is evil - Spike deserves it! It's HUGE avoidance on his own part to face what he did. It ain't pretty, but it makes sense.

[elisi]

Great analysis of the characters in the Wish, very perceptive.
Thank you! :)

there's a world of difference in what she and Dark!Willow mean by "Bored Now".
I very nearly brought that up... Dark!Willow's 'Bored now' is incredibly chilling.

even in the depths of S6 she wasn't indifferent to being called a demon/killer.
Very good point. Oh - maybe that's a way to view the "It's killing me" line from AYW. Being with Spike is killing the part of her that's human? OK, I'm just wildly speculating now - too much heat.

your point about him watching is quite chilling given what he says about seeing everything in Potential.
Ooooh, that's a nice one. I was thinking of the scene where Vamp!Willow tortures Angel and Vamp!Xander says that he'll just watch. ::shudder::

[mikeygs.livejournal.com]

*deep, calming breathes*

I think the Vamp!Willow and Vamp!Xander incarnations are actually pretty similar to the 'real' life counterparts if they were given the power to be that way. Particularly Xander. He's a nice, courteous on the surface, but I think deep down there's a resentment there at never being *quite* good enough from a societal standpoint as well as where Buffy's concerned. We see hints of that in The Pack as well as in Hells Bells during his dream. But what if Xander was given a superpower? It's an interesting prospect.

Your Buffy points are interesting...I'm not sure what I think quite yet. After a bit of ruminating, maybe I'll post about that later. Wish!Buffy seems to not care at all, while Real!Buffy seems to care too much and tries very, very hard to quash that.

[elisi]

I think the Vamp!Willow and Vamp!Xander incarnations are actually pretty similar to the 'real' life counterparts if they were given the power to be that way.
I just now thought of Willow in 'Smashed'. She gets very close to Vamp!Willow - using her powers to make the world her way - only satsifying herself. She's obviously not torturing people for fun (she's not evil!) but she is worryingly lacking in restraint.

But what if Xander was given a superpower? It's an interesting prospect.
There is a very good fic waiting to be written I think... by someone who's good at writing Xander though. I honestly don't know what would happen. ::ponders::

Wish!Buffy seems to not care at all, while Real!Buffy seems to care too much and tries very, very hard to quash that.
It's a fascinating character study. And I really don't know what to think either. My original intention when watching this was to see how cold Wishverse!Buffy was and to try to compare her to S6-S7 Buffy to see how they differed. Because Buffy of the later seasons gets called cold and bitchy and harsh so very often. But compared to Buffy in The Wish? You can see how hard she tries. I'm still trying to work out what I think about it all, and if I ever come to any sort of conclusion will hopefully make a post about Bitchy!Buffy.

Also: *deep, calming breathes*? Was it that good? Or bad?

[mikeygs.livejournal.com]

Because Buffy of the later seasons gets called cold and bitchy and harsh so very often.

I just think most of that is based on canon hyperbole because honestly? I'm not seeing how she's all that bitchy. Distant and removed in certain cases? Yep. Telling some hard truths? You betcha.

Also: *deep, calming breathes*? Was it that good? Or bad?

Oh, it's very good. I was so close to sticking my two cents in upthread and a few months ago, I probably would have. I guess I'm just getting apathetic to the whole 'let's get down on S7' thing. :P

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

OoO! Very interesting. Especially on Xander. I never really thought about where that VampXander came from. Now you got me thinking.

You make a couple of really key points about Buffy. But despite the alternate universe Buffy still doing things her own way, I would still tend to parallel this alternate Buffy to the Kendra of 'What's My Line?' days. This alternate Buffy is ALL about the duty. Her duty. Nothing else matters.


When Buffy first meets Kendra in 210 it's this:

'What's My Line Part 2'
***************************************************************************
Buffy: So. You were sent here?

Kendra: Yes, by my Watcher.

Buffy: To do what, exactly?

Kendra: To do my duty. I am here to kill vampires.
****************************************************************************

Blunt and to the point. It's very clear cut. This is what she does. No exceptions.

'The Wish'
***************************************************************************
Buffy: Well, point the way. I might as well do some good while I'm in
this town. (goes to get her weapons)

Giles: You can't just walk in there and...

Buffy: Look, you wanna stay here and play make-believe, fine. (puts her
crossbow strap over her shoulder) I'm not gonna be any help to you
anyway. There's only one thing I'm good at.

Giles: At least let's muster some kind of force.

Buffy: I don't play well with others. Now, I'm gonna ask you this once,
and then I'm gonna get testy. Where's the club?
***************************************************************************

AND

***************************************************************************
Buffy: (interrupts) Look, I don't have time for stories. Where's the
Master?
***************************************************************************

TheWish!Buffy is the same way. She's all about getting the job done. And she's pissed as hell when people get in her way.

(continued)

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

Kendra also didn't understand the concept of a friend, mostly because she never had any, in the same way that TheWish!Buffy didn't.

'What's My Line Part 2'
***************************************************************************
Buffy: Back off, pink ranger! This is my friend.

Kendra: Friend?

Buffy: Yeah. As in person you hang with? Amigo?

Kendra: I don't understand.
***************************************************************************

Visiting this quote again...

'The Wish'
***************************************************************************
Giles: At least let's muster some kind of force.

Buffy: I don't play well with others.
***************************************************************************

In the same way, they both see Angel(us) in the same way.

'What's My Line Part 2'
****************************************************************************
Buffy: Yes! Right. (to Kendra) Look, you saw me with Angel, and he is a
vampire, but he's good.

Kendra: Angel? You mean Angelus? I've read about him. He is a monster.
***************************************************************************

AND

***************************************************************************
Kendra: He's a vampire. He *should* die. Why am I de only person who
sees it?
***************************************************************************

'The Wish'
***************************************************************************
Angel turns to face Buffy and grabs his
wound.

Angel: Buffy...

He crumbles to ash. Buffy takes it like he's just another dead
vampire, and marches over to another fray to continue the fight.
***************************************************************************

And then there is this one. No person skills whatsoever.

'What's My Line Part 2'
***************************************************************************
Kendra attacks him and pushes him out of the back room and onto the
floor.

Buffy: Doesn't anyone just say 'hello' where you come from?
***************************************************************************

'The Wish'
***************************************************************************
When the people have all run away, he turns to run back to his car, but
a third vampire slams the rear van door into his face, knocking him flat
on his back. They try to grab him to load up, but the one at his feet
suddenly finds himself flying through the air and landing hard on his
back. The other two attack, but meet with similar fates. The first one
runs at his attacker again, but gets staked. The attacker grabs another
and stakes him. The others flee. Giles looks up at the person standing
at his feet.

Giles: Buffy Summers?

Buffy: That's right. Wanna tell me what I'm doing here?
***************************************************************************

They both operate like machines moving through their job, doing exactly what needs to be done, nothing more. No emotions, no personality. Just hard core stone.

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

(continued)

TheWish!Buffy that ME created here really speaks about what Buffy had told Kendra way back when. That you need passion to fight. That it's not all about perfection....

'What's My Line Part 2'
***************************************************************************
Kendra: Emotions are weakness, Buffy. You shouldn't entertain dem.

Buffy: Kendra, my emotions give me power. They're total assets!

Kendra: (picks up her knife) Maybe. For you. But I prefer to keep an
even mind. (wipes the blade)
***************************************************************************
AND
***************************************************************************
Buffy: (plays with the stake) Oh, well, when we were fighting, uh,
you're amazing! Your technique, it's flawless, it's, hmm, better than
mine.

Kendra: I know.

Buffy: Still, I woulda kicked your butt in the end. And ya know why? No
imagination.
***************************************************************************
AND
***************************************************************************
Buffy: (looks Kendra in the eye) That would be anger you're feeling.

Kendra: What?

Buffy: You feel it, right? How the anger gives you fire? A Slayer needs
that.
***************************************************************************

Ultimately, both Kendra and TheWish!Buffy are killed by their enemy. And I think ME was trying to say, it's because they lacked the emotional component to keep them alive. The connection the the world. The fire to live. And that goes right back to Spike's little piece of wisdom.

[yourlibrarian]

Interesting observations! I particularly liked your thoughts about Willow and Buffy. Yes, Vamp!Willow is just rather aimless but Dark!Willow is full of her own power, resentful and competitive. It's a different vibe. And I liked what you wrote about Buffy trying to hang on to her humanity as a tie to life, and the idea you mentioned upthread that this is what Buffy meant when she told Spike being with him was killing her. The Wish!verse Buffy really does seem pretty dead inside.

As for Xander, I always thought he had a very distinct dark side, as opposed to Willow's which we really didn't see until S6. To me the most chilling thing about him was always his reluctance to take responsibility for his own actions. This came out particularly strongly in his breakup with Cordelia, although it came as early as his reaction post-possession in "The Pack." His tendency to deny or blame others for his own failures was often done in a jokey fashion but it's really a pretty sociopathic tendency. (Among the descriptors of a sociopathic personality is:
Glibness/superficial charm, Lack of remorse or guilt and Failure to accept responsibility for own actions.) Of course he also shows warmth and empathy, and many other positive traits which counter that. But as a vamp, those traits would disappear leaving behind a killer who would likely blame his victims for making him torture them.

I loved that comment about him preferring to watch Angel be tortured. It seems to me even there he wants to see the torture without bothering to be responsible for doing it.

[elisi]

Yes, Vamp!Willow is just rather aimless but Dark!Willow is full of her own power, resentful and competitive.
Perfect summary. And an intriguing character. Have you seen sdwolfpup's vid 'Red Oyster Cult'? I think you'd like it.

The Wish!verse Buffy really does seem pretty dead inside.
She a very interesting character - she's so much like Kendra, but a great deal of Kendra's stand-offishness is because she's not used to social interaction. Wishverse!Buffy seems to have made an informed choice that it's quite simply not worth it.

As for Xander, I always thought he had a very distinct dark side, as opposed to Willow's which we really didn't see until S6.
Very interesting points. Willow always had a thing for 'fixing life' to her liking (just see 'Lover's Walk' and 'Something Blue'), but until S6 she always feels very bad about it (if it goes wrong)... she's all with the guilt and the grovelling at the end of the two eps I mentioned. We never really see Xander expressing that kind of remorse, which does raise a lot of questions about the character. Lots of food for thought.

Thank you so much for your clever thoughts.

Vamp Breathing

[fictionalfemme.livejournal.com]

Hey, really enjoying the discussion so far. V.v. Interesting.

One point that was mentioned during the discussion though, about vampires not breathing, is that this really bugs me while watching Becoming also. When Spike grabs Dru and holds her neck until she gives a distressed squeak and passes out? Totally bugs! I try to tell myself that he's squeezing hard enough to cut off the flow of blood to her brain and [i]that[/i] is what causes her to go unconscious but it really just looks like he's asphyxiating her. *shakes head*

Anyway, looking forward to reading more of this. See ya around. ;)

Re: Vamp Breathing

[elisi]

I love it when people have discussion in my LJ - it's fascinating to follow.

Re. the Spike/Dru scene in 'Becoming', it's just one of those where we have to suspend disbelief. Just like the whole blood flow thing - how can vampires get an erection? I tend to just put it down to magic. bogwitch has an interesting essay about Ritual Magic and the Physiology of the Jossverse Vampire if you want to ponder more...

Anyway, nice to see you! :)