elisi | Thoughs on B/R and B/S... a comparison of speeches

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Thoughs on B/R and B/S... a comparison of speeches

What do you know... more thoughts! These were mainly brought on by reading Spring Summers’ Spikecentricity analyses, which set some wheels in motion. Particularly re. Buffy/Riley and Buffy/Spike.

I have to start with Spike’s speech in ‘Touched’. It’s beautiful and even those who don’t like it know that it’s an important moment. The only part that people tend to have a problem with is ‘You’re a hell of a woman’ because of the Riley echoes from ‘As You Were’. But... I started thinking. Not about ‘As You Were’, but about the time when Riley made his big ‘I love everything about you’ speech. But rather than just talking, I’ll show you what I mean. Below are the two speeches, Buffy’s reaction and the love-interest’s conclusion:

RILEY in ‘The Replacement’:
Riley: Buffy... if you led a perfectly normal life, you wouldn't be half as crazy as you are. I gotta have that. I gotta have it all. I'm talkin' toes, elbows, the whole bad-ice-skating-movie obsession, everything. There's no part of you I'm not in love with.

Buffy looks up at him. He glances at her. She smiles a little, then looks out her window.

Buffy: We better get there soon. If Xander kills himself, he's dead. (frowns) You know what I mean.

Later:
Riley: Hey, I'm well aware of how lucky I am. Like, lottery lucky. Buffy's like nobody else in the world. When I'm with her it's like ... it's like I'm split in two. Half of me is just ... on fire, going crazy if I'm not touching her. The other half ... is so still and peaceful ... just perfectly content. Just knows: this is the one. (Smiles a little, continues packing for a moment, then looks up at Xander again.) But she doesn't love me.

--------

SPIKE in ‘Touched’:
Spike: [...] You listen to me... A 100+ years, and there's only one thing I've ever been sure of: you. (Buffy looks away; he reaches toward her face) Hey, look at me. I'm not asking you for anything. When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. (a tear rolls down Buffy's cheek) I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you. And I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.

[...]

Buffy: Spike? (he turns to face her) Could you...stay here?

Spike: Sure. (looks at a chair) That diabolical old torture device, the comfy chair. (takes off his coat) It'll do me fine.

Buffy: No, I mean...here. (touches the bed beside her) Will you just hold me?

Later:
Buffy: Do you see this? (holds up the scythe) This may actually help me fight my war. This might be the key to everything. And the reason I'm holding it is because of you. Because of the strength that you gave me last night.

[...]

Spike: ...I've lived for soddin' ever, Buffy. I've done everything. Done things with you I can't spell, but... I've never... been close... to anyone. Least of all, you. 'Til last night. All I did was... (smiles) hold you, watch you sleep. And it was the best night of my life.

So... Of course the situations and the relationships are wildly different. But both men make a no-holds-barred declaration of love - in Riley’s case Buffy barely responds at all, and changes the subject. In Spike’s case she gives him something more valuable than love - she lets him be close. She actually lets him in, which is a huge step for her too - I don’t think she’s ever let anyone in since she got hurt by Angel (And as Faith discovers - being the Slayer makes you lonely, no matter how many friends you have).

And this brings me to a point

molly_may made yesterday about the love/want in Spike’s dream:

I think that it's really telling that even in his dream Spike can't imagine Buffy saying that she loves him. Not because it's sad that he can't imagine being worthy of her love - he *isn't* worthy, he's a mass murderer with no moral compass - but that in his subconscious he *knows* he's not worthy, and that she shouldn't love him. He's not put off by her not declaring love for him in the dream - he accepts that as a perfectly rational response. And by knowing (even subconsciously) now that he's not worthy of her love, it's the first step on the road that will one day lead to him turning into someone who will be worthy.

I think that his speech in ‘Touched’ might possibly be the last step on that road... because he still doesn’t see himself as worthy. He is quite simply content loving her. Which is the key difference between Spike and Riley. To pick out the main difference of their speeches:

Riley: I gotta have that. I gotta have it all.

Spike: When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me.

Riley asks for it all and gets next to nothing. Spike asks for nothing and gets it all.

I think that’s a rather good lesson.

I hope you're all having a good Red Nose Day! :)

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This brings us to another classic argument, the "I love you because you make me feel .

With Riley's speech, we see that Buffy makes him feel passion, fire and peace. He's laying the onus of his emotional well being on Buffy. Spike has also echoed this dynamic in his "you make me feel like a man" speech but in reality his love for Buffy is so much deeper and untainted.

The difference is that with Riley, his love was hinged on Buffy making him feel a certain set of emotions. When he no longer felt he was getting his emotional fix from Buffy he made the choice to end the relationship.

With Spike, whether he was getting the emotional validation from Buffy that he craved or whether she was beating him into the pavement and making him feel like dust, HE STILL LOVED HER. His love was not based on emotional feedback.

Riley loved Buffy and the way Buffy made him feel. Spike loved Buffy despite how Buffy made him feel.

Spike wins.

I have nothing to add! Spike always wins!

As he should.

I love your way with words!

Pithy.

Very beautifully put. "beams at you"

The difference is that with Riley, his love was hinged on Buffy making him feel a certain set of emotions. When he no longer felt he was getting his emotional fix from Buffy he made the choice to end the relationship.

That is just an excellent analysis of it, kudos. the phrase you use here, "emotional fix" suddenly makes me wonder if going to vamps for suck jobs isn't really all that out-of-character for him at all (I had never quite made that connection before.)

Riley asks for it all and gets next to nothing. Spike asks for nothing and gets it all.

This was lovely to read in it's entirety, but this got me. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I love it!

Oh, very pleased that you liked it. And reading lots of reviews of early S5, it's interesting to be reminded how S and R slowly swap places in Buffy's world. I like the symmetry I guess.

Beautiful analysis. But oh it just reminds me how much I hate Riley! :)

*Thank you*! I don't hate Riley... the poor guy was just wrong for Buffy in all sorts of ways.

And it's nice to see you! :)

Yay for your brain :)
Ha! I watched The Replacement the other night too, and I must admit I thought when Riley says he feels like he's being split in two was supposed to echo what happened in the episode. Yet, I suppose it's a hint that because he feels like that, no good will come of the relationship, because the whole point of the ep was to put Xander back together, not split him in two.
Spike's speech in Touched is about the only time I would like to be Buffy - just to hear that. Hmmm.
Re-watching S4 and S5 I kinda cringe at the B/R - I always watch Something Blue until the cookie bit and then switch off the DVD :)

V, good thoughts re. the 'split-in-two thing. I'm going to quote Spring Summers here:

Comparisons are being drawn between Xander & Anya and Buffy & Riley, and the compare-contrast mode becomes overt in the final scene, when Riley tells Xander that Anya “digs the whole package.”

Because Buffy doesn't. And that's the problem... here's another bit that's just perfect:

...to quote Season 2 Angel again:

“Passion. It lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting. And though unwanted, unbidden – it will stir. Open its jaws, and howl.”

So . . . maybe Buffy is not going to be able to keep passion at bay forever. As Spike says in this episode, while caressing the face of the Buffy-mannequin whose head he has just violently, passionately kicked off: “Oh, Slayer. One of these days.” One of these days, though unwanted, unbidden, Buffy’s passion will stir. It will open its jaws, and it will howl loud enough to bring a house - and then a whole town - down, down, down. One of these days.

But for now, Buffy moves along, half-dead, committing a partial suicide which will become full-blown at Season’s end. She is ignoring passion...

The woman sure can write!!!

And I've had 'Touched'-speeches! :)

And B/R... at least I can laugh along with Darcy! He does the whole eyeroll thing everytime there is a <>deep and meaningful B/R scene.

Open its jaws, and howl.”
Er.....that sounds a bit like the mouth of hell, and Willow's bit in "Lessons" There's... I saw, I saw the Earth, Giles. I saw its teeth........It's gonna open. It's gonna swallow us all.
But that's terribly optimistic of me, isn't it?
And I've had 'Touched'-speeches! :)
Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Hmm, I guess it sounds rather hellmouthy, but then this is Angelus being poetic, so I guess that's rather fitting.

Heee! ::giggles::
(Will write proper e-mail soon!!!!!)

Terrific food for thought. I think you contrasted the relationships very nicely, and it clarifies the world of difference between what
Riley and Spike ultimately had to offer in a relationship.

I think a nonSpuffy fan would point to the Bronze scene in Dead Things, however, and say, "Well, what about 'You belong here in the dark with me'? How is that not all about Spike?" As a devil's advocate, I would argue that at an early point in both relationships (once Spike fell for Buffy), Riley was a much better choice than Spike. He represented the normal, stable relationship that Buffy needed and I don't think there's anything wrong with that idea. Ironically, by the time Spike made that declaration of love, he had become, in many ways, the steady, reliable "go-to guy" (both in love and in a fight) that Buffy really did need in her life.

The problem with Riley not being the long haul guy for Buffy was not so much because she literally "needed a little monster in her man", but because he couldn't understand Buffy outside of her role as his girlfriend. (I think his request that Buffy take him and their relationship seriously--because she really didn't--was reasonable, but what I see as his implicit expectation that she needed to change to fit the relationship was not.) In addition, what passed for stability with Riley was, in my opinion, an inability to change in any significant way. Spike, on the other hand, grew and changed over the course of his relationship with Buffy, both in how he loved Buffy and what he expected from her, but also in the person he became.

Oh, loverly thoughts! I think the problems in the B/R relationship are there right from the start. From 'Something Blue':

Willow: The pain is not a friend.
Buffy: But I can't help thinking — isn't that where the fire comes from? Can a nice, safe relationship be that intense? I know it's nuts, but.. part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in hand with pain and fighting.
.....
Buffy: And the bad-boy thing — over it. Okay, I totally get it. I'd be really happy to be in a nice relationship with a decent, reliable.. Oh my God! Riley thinks I'm engaged.

Buffy very deliberately goes for something 'nice, decent and reliable' rather than passion. Which is probably why she never sees that something's wrong. Also she's shut off her heart after Angel hurt her... she never lets Riley in, and I'm not sure she could even if she wanted to. He was right in that she didn't love him (like he loved her), but you can't make someone love you.

Spike was for a long time very bad for Buffy (Bronze-scene being the prime example) - just like Riley he was for a while 'trying too hard'. But unlike Riley he understood what she had been through and he never gave up.

Oh, I'm too tired for this. I hope that made some sort of sense.

Hmm...I like the comparison of the passages that you quote.

My take on things are that Riley's not wrong; two people in a lasting committed relationship should feel that way about each other, otherwise, what's the point. And I can see Spike saying something very similar, even if he never said it. And when he's talking to her in Touched and he says he's not asking for anything, it doesn't mean that he doesn't want anything from her, he's just clarifying what it means when he says that he loves her. And I can see Riley saying something very similar, and in fact he did in As You Were.

After what happened with Angel, Buffy closed off her heart and really could not give of herself to anyone. The difference between the two guys is that Spike was willing to accept anything from Buffy, while Riley decided he didn't want to. That's really laid out in their male bonding scene in Into The Woods (and man I could wax poetic about that scene all day). There are merits to each decision. Riley's decision was definitely healthier, and he left for his own good. He healed, moved on, and found some one else he was happy with. And can you imagine him in season 6 trying to date Buffy while she was dealing with her depression? Spike had the strength (physical and emotional) to deal with Buffy, while Riley did not. Spike's decision was unhealthier, and their relationship ended up being self-destructive, but, he stuck it out through thick and thin, in the end it turned out to be worthwhile. He got his soul back, became her Champion, and she gave him her love. He helped to heal her heart.

Oh, and I meant to say, I think in Chosen when Buffy's talking about her relationships and how she could never make them work and how she's not ready, she's talking about human relationships, ones that can last, namely her relationship with Riley. And what she needs to "bake" about is her ability to commit to a relationship in the way that Riley describes.

what she needs to "bake" about is her ability to commit to a relationship in the way that Riley describes.

Oh, yes!

This was all very well put. I think another distinction is the fact that Spike's a vampire... and I don't think that Buffy necessarily 'needs a little monster in her man', but that Spike 'doesn't have a life'... he has eternity to wait for Buffy. Riley has a life to lead, and although he wants to spend it with Buffy, he understands that she's not ready - and might never be. And he certainly is... see how quickly he marries Sam.

Thanks. And thanks for your post, because that was the first time I was able to put all that into words.

No problem! ;) It's awkward and messy, but I guess that's why it's so fascinating.

Riley asks for it all and gets next to nothing. Spike asks for nothing and gets it all.

Awwwww. I have absolutely nothing insightful to say, but I love the way you pointed that out.

Also, what is Red Nose Day?

Oh, thank you! Your clever thoughts make me have clever thoughts too!

Red Nose Day... after Live Aid and Band Aid, the comedians in Britain said, "Well, if a bunch of pop stars can do it, then so can we!" and 'Comic Relief' was born. It's every other year and a whole evening of tv is devoted to it - alternating between sublime comedy and films from Africa (and the UK) about people in poverty and struggling with HIV/Aids, domestic abuse etc. etc. It makes you laugh your head off one minute and cry your eyes out the next. And it raises A LOT of money!!!!

Oh, how I have always loved the symmetry between these two!

Loved your juxaposition between the different scenes! And no conclusion could be more clear and concise than your 'Riley asks for it all and gets next to nothing. Spike asks for nothing and gets it all.' Perfect.

I like it when I'm able to put thing concisely. :) Doesn't happen all that often.

I've been trying to come up with some sort of brilliant response and when I agree with so much that has already been said that's really hard to do. So, I'll just say I've really enjoyed your Riley/Spike comparisons and that you make some excellent points. I was glad to see Riley go and I hated the way he and Buffy parted, but he wasn't the ogre that too many try to make him be in order to make Spike look better. What Spike was able to do and what I don't think Riley would have ever been able to do is except Buffy just as she is. And now I'm paraphrasing Mr Darcy. ;p

he wasn't the ogre that too many try to make him be in order to make Spike look better.

Oh, no - compared to say Parker, he was practically a saint! ;)

He just couldn't cope with who she was and she wasn't able to love him. Have you see

sdwolfpup's vid 'Coin Operated Boy'? Because that says more about B/R and B/S than many essays!

Like I said, in a topic about B/R, Riley lack of self-esteem was the thing that doomed his relationship with Buffy. He really puts so much pression on her, it's not fair.
In Season Seven, Spike becomes more aware of what he is. So he stop being possessive and asks for nothing. For Buffy this is just a blessing. I mean, with Spike she can really be "just a girl".

Nothing to add, but yes. :)

ETA: Actually - I just remembered! Riley can be seen as a metaphor for male privilege. No wonder that Buffy never connects, because she threatens what he is.

Edited 2011-12-31 09:01 (UTC)

ETA: Actually - I just remembered! Riley can be seen as a metaphor for male privilege. No wonder that Buffy never connects, because she threatens what he is.

Interesting! I think I'm gonna read another meta about them.

Well you obviously know where to find it... :)

Riley can be seen as a metaphor for male privilege. No wonder that Buffy never connects, because she threatens what he is.

*slaps forehead* Excellent point! (I may have to do an S4 rewatch after all.)

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Thoughs on B/R and B/S... a comparison of speeches

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