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Awww, bitty Buffy...
Funnily enough we watched Buffy last night... shiny new DVDs are fun! :) Also had a look at a few extras, one of which is Hepburn's video to 'I Quit'. Darcy's comment I think was something like "Great - they're all bossy dykes!" Which they are - the song is pretty much about breaking up with their goth/vamp 'doubles'... still a good song though! *g*
Anyway, decided to just start at the beginning and therefore watched WttH and 'The Harvest'.
Of course they're all so YOUNG and SWEET and Buffy is very much a living proof of why Slayers need a Watcher. (And Giles is so adorable! ::squishes him::). But Buffy is very much your typical teen - so snippy with Giles, although she automatically gravitates towards him. She's hurting from what slaying has done to her (left her friendless and alone), but her heart still shines through, in that if someone needs help she can't stop herself. But no matter how sweet she is, I still prefer her later - she's very... straightforward here. I prefer her with layers - like an ogre. *g*
Angel looks *very* pretty (Darcy: "I'd forgotten how skinny he was then.He really filled out later!"), and the first look (shadowy outline) is very James Dean. But the clothes are horrible (that shiny jacket? A whole new world of badness!) and the acting possibly worse. That he turned into my beloved Angel from AtS is... nothing short of miraculous!
The Master is entertainingly camp and I rather liked Luke (So ugly, so evil). Darla... ah Darla. Sometimes excellent, other times so wrong considering how they fleshed out her character later. My current theory is that The Master did some sort of spell on her to keep her in line (no running off with handsome young rebels any more). ETA: Oh and I'd forgotten that she's the one who picks out Cordy to be Luke's next victim in The Bronze... no wonder she is so particularly angry with her in AtS S2!
Willow is mostly just cute - the main thing I noticed was actually the Jesse & Xander story line. Jesse isn't mentioned much later in the show, but I think what happened to him has a very big psychological effect on Xander. They have this exchange, before Xander (accidentally) dusts him:
Xander: Jesse! I know there's still a part of you in there.
Jesse: Okay... Let's deal with this. Jesse was an excruciating loser who couldn't get a date with anyone in the sighted
community! Look at me. I'm a new man!
Pretty much all of his singleminded hatred of vampires can be led back to what happened to Jesse - vampires killed his (best) friend and turned him into an evil, callous stranger. There's probably an essay in there somewhere.
ETA: And yet Jesse uses the word 'I' ("I'm a new man") - it also reminded me of Willow's way of describing herself when she went evil. Hmmm.
Don't have time for much more. But I'll try to write down my thoughts after each episode. Loved all sorts of bits and pieces - Flutie taping Buffy's report back together, 'Ballad for Dead Friends', Giles slamming down the 'Vampyr' book... *happy sigh*
Anyway, decided to just start at the beginning and therefore watched WttH and 'The Harvest'.
Of course they're all so YOUNG and SWEET and Buffy is very much a living proof of why Slayers need a Watcher. (And Giles is so adorable! ::squishes him::). But Buffy is very much your typical teen - so snippy with Giles, although she automatically gravitates towards him. She's hurting from what slaying has done to her (left her friendless and alone), but her heart still shines through, in that if someone needs help she can't stop herself. But no matter how sweet she is, I still prefer her later - she's very... straightforward here. I prefer her with layers - like an ogre. *g*
Angel looks *very* pretty (Darcy: "I'd forgotten how skinny he was then.He really filled out later!"), and the first look (shadowy outline) is very James Dean. But the clothes are horrible (that shiny jacket? A whole new world of badness!) and the acting possibly worse. That he turned into my beloved Angel from AtS is... nothing short of miraculous!
The Master is entertainingly camp and I rather liked Luke (So ugly, so evil). Darla... ah Darla. Sometimes excellent, other times so wrong considering how they fleshed out her character later. My current theory is that The Master did some sort of spell on her to keep her in line (no running off with handsome young rebels any more). ETA: Oh and I'd forgotten that she's the one who picks out Cordy to be Luke's next victim in The Bronze... no wonder she is so particularly angry with her in AtS S2!
Willow is mostly just cute - the main thing I noticed was actually the Jesse & Xander story line. Jesse isn't mentioned much later in the show, but I think what happened to him has a very big psychological effect on Xander. They have this exchange, before Xander (accidentally) dusts him:
Xander: Jesse! I know there's still a part of you in there.
Jesse: Okay... Let's deal with this. Jesse was an excruciating loser who couldn't get a date with anyone in the sighted
community! Look at me. I'm a new man!
Pretty much all of his singleminded hatred of vampires can be led back to what happened to Jesse - vampires killed his (best) friend and turned him into an evil, callous stranger. There's probably an essay in there somewhere.
ETA: And yet Jesse uses the word 'I' ("I'm a new man") - it also reminded me of Willow's way of describing herself when she went evil. Hmmm.
Don't have time for much more. But I'll try to write down my thoughts after each episode. Loved all sorts of bits and pieces - Flutie taping Buffy's report back together, 'Ballad for Dead Friends', Giles slamming down the 'Vampyr' book... *happy sigh*
continued again...
Spike blinked. "Huh?"
"What was his name?"
"Who?...oh. You mean...bloody hell." Spike pinched the bridge of his nose in a weary gesture. "My real name is William, all right? Hand me that sodding bottle."
"His name was William," Xander corrected in a voice that didn't quite break. "William the Bloody?"
"Had the nickname before I met Dru, yeah. Didn't mean what you think it means."
"What was he like?"
"I was a complete ponce, actually."
"Um, does that translate into American as 'excruciating loser'?"
"Well." Spike blinked. "Yeah, close enough."
"Then that's exactly what he said." Xander closed his eyes against the ringing sound, and took another drink.
He didn't register Spike's question until he felt Spike's hand on his arm. "Who are you talking about?"
Spike was still keeping arm's length away, he saw when he opened his eyes. "Giles said - 'You're not looking at your friend. You're looking at the thing that killed him.'"
Spike's hand slipped off Xander's arm, and Spike backed off almost imperceptibly. "You had a friend, and he got turned."
"And I staked him." Tears pricked Xander's eyes, but he slammed the bottle down on the floor and shouted at Spike, "But it wasn't Jesse! I didn't kill Jesse! He was already dead, nothing was left but the fucking demon walking around in his body!"
"And I'm not William, I'm the demon that killed him?"
"Yes!"
"So if I remember playing toy soldiers in the nursery when I was five and getting strapped for forgetting my Latin when I was ten and all that rot - what, that never happened to me?"
He couldn't answer the question. He couldn't think about the question. "They all said it, over and over. 'Xander, you didn't kill Jesse.'" He was pleading, begging Spike for something, and he didn't know what but he was pretty sure he couldn't survive if he didn't get it.
"Xander," Spike's voice was hollow and far away, "You killed Jesse."
That was it.
The smell of rum was strong and Xander's pants were wet and the bottle was rolling on its side where Spike had knocked it over. His arms were around Xander and Xander was sobbing.
"You killed Jesse," he repeated, whispering it in an incongruously soothing tone while he stroked Xander's hair. "You killed your friend Jesse."
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I love fic that explores stuff in that way - and this was very well done. It's funny, because I've just read a review of 'Doppelgangland' and been thinking about the Vamp!Willow problem - they choose to send her back because they can't stake her. Also:
Buffy: Willow, just remember, a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was.
Angel: (without thinking) Well, actually... (gets a look from Buffy) That's a good point.
It's a grey area! I don't think that Spike is right in your story necessarily, but he isn't wrong either.
How much do I love this 'verse... *happy sigh*
Thank you so much for sharing! :)
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I did remember you aren't so much down with the S/X, but I hoped this would be okay, being limited to hugging. :)
The Vamp!Willow thing is troubling to me, too. Why does the Willow vampire deserve more consideration than any other vampire? Isn't her killing people in the Wishverse just as bad as her killing people in their version of Sunnydale?
I can sort of justify it, though, thinking that they were engaging in a Prime Directive (ala Star Trek) thinking regarding the Wishverse; vamp!Willow belongs in that universe and has to play out her role there free of extra-dimensional interference.
Buffy: Willow, just remember, a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was.
Angel: (without thinking) Well, actually... (gets a look from Buffy) That's a good point.
Yeah, I think that's a really key moment for our understanding of the relationship between a vampire and the human who was turned ... but of course the frustrating thing is, we never find out what Angel was originally going to say! From his tone it was clear he was going to contradict Buffy, but in what way exactly?
These questions interest me. As you can probably tell. :)
Giles' original description of what it's like to be turned (the person is gone and it's a demon walking around in their body, even if the demon has the person's memories) really doesn't seem to entirely agree with what we later learn of Spike's history, and what we see Harmony go through. On the other hand it seems to be a perfect description of what happens to Fred when Illyria takes over.
I don't think that Spike is right in your story necessarily, but he isn't wrong either.
Well, he has a slightly biased perspective, of course!
Actually, the scene continues beyond what I posted here, and Spike does refine his position on the question a bit more. The later part has more plot-specific exposition, so I didn't want to post it, but hm, maybe I can just snip the relevant bits (again, this is in lieu of an essay on my thoughts on this question!) Um, here:
***
Eventually the tears stopped and a weary calmness sank through Xander. He knew he was a disgusting snotty mess, so when Spike handed him a bloodstained t-shirt and said "clean yourself up," he wiped his eyes and blew his nose on it, barely conscious of the multiple levels of ew factor.
"We should have done something to save him," he said, and he didn't even mean it in a self-recriminatory way - it was just such an amazing wash of relief to finally admit it.
But - "No," said Spike. "You couldn't have. You had to dust him."
"Because vampires are evil?" Xander glared at him and tossed the t-shirt at some corner. "Like you and Angel?"
"Pretty much, yeah," Spike agreed easily. "Not like you had a gypsy curse or a government pain chip to hand, right? And even if you did, that's not the kind of thing you do to a friend. Better to just dust him, make a clean end of it."
"We could have - it was Jesse. We could have done something."
"He would have killed you. If he got away he would've killed plenty more people - that's what vampires do, innit? He was your friend, yeah, but he was a monster, too."
"Willow turned into a monster and I didn't kill her," Xander said in a voice so small he could barely hear himself. "Anya, too."
[...]
Spike shifted, put his elbow on his knee. "So. You finished telling me the story of Scoobies gone bad?" He caught Xander's glare at the light tone. "Hey, reformed mass murderer myself, you know."
"See, that's the point. You reformed. Willow got through it. Anya gave up her powers. But we never gave Jesse a chance."
Spike lit up another cigarette before answering - it was the fourth he'd smoked since Xander started talking. "Look, Buffy tried to dust me more than once, and she was bloody well right to do it - just too bad for all the poor sods I killed afterwards that she failed. And from what you just told me, she was ready to kill Willow and Anya, too, when it looked like she had to to protect the innocent. Maybe none of the three of us should be walking this earth. But fate's a capricious bitch, so here we are."
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As before, very interesting and this I could actually see happening! Thank you!
These questions are what makes me love the show so much!
vamp!Willow belongs in that universe and has to play out her role there free of extra-dimensional interference.
Yes that's my take on it too - and also I think that since they have a way out, they take it. Jesse was killed by accident - although Buffy might have staked him eventually, like she had to stake Angelus. But they never stake Harmony - and let Spike live in S4 'because they know him'. Personal attachments play an important role!
Re. how much remains of the original person, then I think it's variable. (Otherwise nothing makes sense. *g*) It also raises questions about the demons that inhabit the body - where do they come from? What are they like before? How much of their personality shines though?
And now my head is beginning to hurt...
But I love your point about Illyria/Fred. I'd never thought of that.
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The Scooby gang has a serious tendency to value the lives of people they know over those of people they don't. Sometimes it gets downright troubling.
It also raises questions about the demons that inhabit the body - where do they come from? What are they like before? How much of their personality shines though?
All of which are very unanswered questions! :D
Personally I've come to the conclusion (decision?) that the demons are "born" in the people at the moment of turning (vampire reproduction). The demon doesn't really have an separate existence, it's just a new part of the person. It doesn't have memories of its own, or a personality per se, but it does have a whole wack of instincts and impulses.
Anyway, that seems to mostly work with what we see in canon!
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Illyria knows everything about being Fred enough to fool her own parents. Illyria never felt guilt or affection at all before being born into Fred, but Illyria in Fred feels them stringly enough to be dominated by Fred's emotions more often than not.
On the other hand, the Fred/Illyria relationship is not the same as the vamping relationship.
We usually see vampires pervert the stronest feelings of the human and dissolve the superego entirely. Illyria keeps those strongest feelings as the only ones that remain just as strong.
Of course we have no other Illyrias to compare. And we know the variability of Liam/ vamp Liam, William/ vamp William, Anne/ vamp Anne, Willow/ vamp Willow, and Lawson/ vamp Lawson provides abundant material to reach any conclusion you like.
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Exactly. She can do a Fred impersonation (and with time she begins to understand Fred's feelings), but unlike say Spike and Angelus she feels no ties to the people Fred was close to.
Sometimes it gets downright troubling.
I know what you mean, but I think it's a very human tendendy - if there was trouble we'd all save our own family first I think.
Your 'demons are born' theory is very interesting. I like it a lot! :) Must ponder.
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You probably wouldn't like the story as a whole, though—it's very Spandery.