S8, canon, artwork etc.

[elisi]

I've had this sitting on my desktop for at least a week now, and I've been realising that if I don't post it now, I won't be able to until after my parents have left... so in 2+ weeks' time. And honestly I'd rather get it out of the way. I'll do my best to reply to comments, but be warned that I'll be slow! That is of course presuming that you find this interesting enough to comment on...


First of all - I love canon. I’ve analysed and defended pretty much *anything* on the show... AYW, Caleb, S3/4 Cordy, the AR - I determinedly look at the positive side of everything. Basically I feel very, very protective of my show and my characters - even Adam or Kennedy. I love the whole ‘verse, warts and all.

I don’t feel like that towards the comics. I’m curious where Joss is going, but I do not have that compunction to defend him or his story - because it doesn’t feel like my show. The change in format is too great. This post is my attempt at examining why. No spoilers.

1) kindkit put it beautifully here:

I'm with you in general, but I have to say, I disagree about the canon issue. Yes, Joss Whedon is writing. But the show was never just Joss. It was Joss, plus the actors, the other writers, the directors, etc. Which is not to deny that Joss was very much the guiding hand (at least when he was around), but the show was the product of an ensemble of talents.

Whether it's good, bad, or indifferent, the comic is not the show. It's a completely different format. There's no Sarah Michelle Gellar, no Tony Head, nobody interpreting Joss's (or another writer's) lines, supplementing them with body language, etc. [There is, of course, an artist, but that's not quite the same thing as a group of actors.] Because the format is so utterly different, I don't consider the comic to be canon, any more than I'd consider a film version of a play to be "canon" to the play (even if the playwright adapted the script--I'm thinking specifically of Tom Stoppard's film version of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead, which I love but which is not the play). I don't consider the Harry Potter films canon, and I wouldn't even if JKR wrote them herself. Similarly, I don't consider Joss's interviews and commentary tracks to be canon--the things he says there may be what he meant, what he wanted the show to be, but I go by what I see onscreen.

The comic is, in my view, its own world, which will develop its own internal canon as it continues. When I write fic, I will write in either show canon or (perhaps) comics canon, but I won't treat them as the same.

There is quite simply not anywhere near the input that we got in the show itself. To quote JM:

But also, like a war, I guess I don't hang out with them because there is a lot of painful memories, because we'd work 12-15 hours a day, which is a lot longer than other TV shows, by the way. We worked a whole lot more than other TV shows, and we were always trying to find more elements, more special effects, more things to put on that brain because it was never good enough. We were always pushing for more, and I feel privileged to have gone through it with them, but at the same time, even watching it sometimes I get some painful memories. It was the best experience of my life, but it was not easy. And I'm proud of it, yeah.

So the input is vastly, vastly reduced. That straight off makes a big difference. One writer and one artist working on a scene is far removed from a whole crew of people, with actors re-shooting a scene numerous times, using different inflections, movements, wording. Look at the dailies for a start.


2) Then there’s the format. No movement, no sound, no music. It’s not the same. And this of course ties in with the whole likeness issue. To quote moscow_watcher (original comment here):

Not to start the whole canon/not canon debate, but on a purely visceral level I don't perceive this drawed Buffy as the one who moved, talked, sang, laughed and cried onscreen. I can be a happy Spuffy shipper who reads and occasionally writes fanfiction and gets her Spuffy fix on fanfiction archives; and, at the same time, I can enjoy the adventures of these new and improved Buffy and Xander who remind me Nikita and Michael a lot.

There was the line ‘drawing the characters, not the actors’ that struck me again recently. It has bugged me since the first time I read it, but suddenly I realised why...

Every now and again someone asks what if they made a film or something, but used different actors - what would people think? Essentially this is what the comics do - they use different actors. And that is why it just doesn’t work for me. SMG is my Buffy! SMG gave Buffy her face, her voice, her mannerisms, her expressions. It is SMG’s Buffy who breaks my heart every time I watch ‘Prophecy Girl’ (“Giles I’m 16 years old... I-I don’t want to die!”), it’s SMG’s Buffy I cheer on in ‘Anne’, SMG’s Buffy that takes my breath away in ‘The Gift’ with her beautiful swan dive, SMG’s Buffy who kicks ass in ‘Chosen’.

Comic!Buffy is OK - but she’s no more my Buffy than Kirsty Swanson.

Tied in with this is the art work itself. I think I originally described it as ‘competent’ and that’s pretty much how I see it still. Having pondered the issue somewhat I think the artist in question is more of a craftsman than an artist. Maybe this is something inherent in working with other people’s stories, I don’t know. (For examples of stuff that really makes me excited about the art, here are pictures by Wendy Pini and Will Eisner.)


3) Then there is that fact that Buffy was *finished* after S7. The show wasn’t cancelled, it ended. Sunnydale was wiped off the map, and since Sunnydale and Buffy always went together, it really was the final, definitive ending.

Interestingly this is why I’m far more excited by the S6 comics of Angel. Poor AtS was cancelled and sent off to an early grave. Yes ‘Not Fade Away’ was the perfect ending, but we know they had a S6 planned and it *kills* me that we never got to see it. A comic will be a pale shadow of course, but still - we *should* have had a S6. (The WB are feelthy people. *spits* We will speak of them no more!)

But there was never going to be a S8.

So no, I’ll never consider the comics ‘show’ canon. Not even if S8 turns out to be utterly brilliant. It’ll be its own canon I think, since I’m sure there are people who’ll want to use it as a basis for fic etc. and that’s fine. But the show ended after S7.

Comments

[shadowscast.livejournal.com]

Yes to all of it! :)

[elisi]

I guess this is the meta accompaniment to your fic. :)

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

Kirsty Swanson was my Buffy for a very long time.

[elisi]

In many ways Kirsty Swanon is still Darcy's Buffy (although he really, really likes SMG).

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

Yes.

[elisi]

:)

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Yes, Joss Whedon is writing. But the show was never just Joss. It was Joss, plus the actors, the other writers, the directors, etc.

When I was younger and more evil one of my favourite pub wind-ups was to try and convince people that Manchester United doesn’t exist. The team was founded in 1878. Since then it’s changed managers, players, coaches, ground, owners, even the name. Over half the team got wiped out in the 1958 air-crash and had to be re-built from scratch and Bobby Charlton. There’s absolutely nothing left of the original team in the current one. Not a single molecule. Despite that I always, always lost those arguments:-(

BtVS the show may be over and the actors in career limbo somewhere over metaphorical Munich but the story goes on {g}

[elisi]

In which case you'll probably be delighted that there's talk of Angel the Movie with Johnny Depp and Orlando Bloom... ;)

[kathyh]

Yes, exactly. I'll still buy the comics because I'm interested in what Joss writes, but my canon they are not. I don't think you can even consider them to be what a Buffy TV Season 8 would have been like as Joss has been freed from the constraints of televison (not necessarily a good thing) and can go as over the top as he pleases with military hardware and boy's toys.

[elisi]

I don't think you can even consider them to be what a Buffy TV Season 8 would have been like
That's another good point. Although he might to do something neat with the army stuff - who knows? (Yes I *am* an eternal optimist....)

[sweet-ali.livejournal.com]

Really well said. I've never been a comic book reader, so that was a definite reason that I wasn't getting these, but all the reasons you listed why, despite Joss declaring this season 8, this will never be season 8 for me. Like you've said, there's a whole lot more to Buffy than Joss. You know, as much as I like the guy.

[elisi]

Like you've said, there's a whole lot more to Buffy than Joss. You know, as much as I like the guy.
Exactly - I love him very much, but...

[shapinglight]

Agree with you completely. Also about season 6 of AtS. Like you, I don't think NFA ends on a cliffhanger but I agree AtS was cut short before it should have been. There was more story to tell.

I'm looking forward to the AtS season 6 comic enormously. I hope it actually happens.

FWIW, I also think Brian Lynch is a better comics writer than Joss.

[elisi]

This should make you happy! :)

[swsa.livejournal.com]

I'm with you. I love the show obsessively and I'll defend it to the death and I wouldn't part with a single episode (except maybe OAFA), but I feel zero attachment to the comics. I bought the first one and haven't even cracked it open. I doubt I'll buy any more. The only place I break ranks with you is that I think of the AtS comics in just the same way. Not interested, and it won't count for me. I probably actually feel even stronger about those, just because with BtVS I at least feel like Joss had a story he wanted to continue. AtS comics seem pretty obviously an opportunity to cash in after they got the BtVS sales figures, and considering Joss will be a "consultant" while others write? I'm not sensing a lot of passion behind the project.

[shapinglight]

and considering Joss will be a "consultant" while others write?

Hi there. Hope you don't mind me chipping in. Just wanted to say that the fact Joss will only be a consultant is something I regard as a good thing. The writer of the series, Brian Lynch, is actually a way better comic book writer than Joss IMO and - if it helps - he really, really gets Spike.

[crossreactivity.livejournal.com]

The canon vs. not-canon debate is really interesting. I don't like the comics either, for a lot of reasons but mostly because the format doesn't appeal to me. As you and many others have said, a lot of the magic of BtVS was the actors on the show bringing the script to life. That said, I'm not convinced that the comics aren't canon because I believe canon is the characters Joss created and the story he chose to tell about them.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer comes to Sunnydale, meets Giles the Watcher, befriends Willow and Xander, fights demons and saves the world again and again... we all know how it goes, up through S7 when Sunnydale becomes a crater and Buffy faces a future where she is no longer "one girl in all the world". The S8 comics clearly pick up after that and go on to tell us what Buffy is doing post-Chosen. The format may not be the best, but the basic facts (for example, that she is teamed up with Xander training slayers) don't change regardless of how well or how poorly the story gets told. I'm sure others will disagree with me, but I have trouble with the idea that "execution" (i.e. film, sound, music, actors) has anything to do with whether or not the story itself is canon.

[swsa.livejournal.com]

But I think there is an argument to be made about the execution/format changing the story when you realize that if BtVS had been told from the start in story form, Angel wouldn't exist, Spike would be dead after about 5 appearances, Dawn would be about 10 years old when she first showed up, Anya would've never been seen after Doppelgangland, Faith's arc would've been drastically shortened/altered. Those are HUGE things that were all actor/network driven that would've most likely only happened if the story was told through television episodes.

[calturner.livejournal.com]

Wonderful post! I completely agree with you. :)

I'm enjoying the comics so far, but I can't really take them seriously. They're fun, but that's about as far as it goes for me. They're definitely not canon to me.

[elisi]

It seems a lot of people like my thoughts. :) Comic!Buffy is nice, but *my* Buffy is in Rome.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I wrote a much longer response here but in short, I'm afraid I don't really agree with you.

Or at least, let me put it this way: if the comics aren't Buffyverse canon, then Angel isn't Buffyverse canon either...

[elisi]

if the comics aren't Buffyverse canon, then Angel isn't Buffyverse canon either...
Now that I don't really get. But will comment on your post later.

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

Well said! I have to say I'm enjoying the comics, and looking forward to seeing where people take the storyline in terms of fic, but I don't feel quite the same attachment and personalization (for lack of a better term!) to the comics.

Though I love Giant!Dawn, and I'm hoping Amy's boyfriend turns out to be Warren :D

[ellalthea.livejournal.com]

I never thought of the warren angle...that could be awesome.

[ellalthea.livejournal.com]

I would disagree with you-I see the comic book as being Buffy in its true form. No constraints of tv executives, actor's capabilities, etc. Joss Whedon finally is able to tell the story that he has always wanted to. He also isn't going to be the only writer on this comic book. If anything, I would be surprised if he didn't retcon show cannon to redo it the way he wanted.

A big difference in our opinions is probably due to the fact that I am a huge comic book fan. I read between 5-10 comic books a week, it is my preferred format. I believe saying it isn't cannon is too extreme, and frankly not an opinion I would want to offer without having read at least ten issues. Rarely can a comic book be properly judged only two issues in.

[elisi]

Rarely can a comic book be properly judged only two issues in.
That is very true. And I'm fully prepared to love the story deeply if it turns out to be good. But it's just not *my* show. Comic!Buffy is *a* Buffy not *the* Buffy - not *the* Buffy that I loved on the show.

I can see where you're coming from, and I *do* really like comic books as it happens, but it was the TV show that I adored and the comics can never fill the void the show left behind. For me the show is so much more than just the story Joss wanted to tell...

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

word!

except, I don't care for AtS S6. but that's just me

The thing about the comic is, i read them because i want to know what happens to my characters but i miss so much the actual interaction between them, I mean what's Buffy withouth her tone of voice when she quips? OR Giles' when he's being serious or even Andrew? you know I was complaining I did't like him in the last issue but i'm sure if those lines were on the show they would have made an impression on me... I don't know, this post just reminds me why i miss the shows so much.

[elisi]

i miss so much the actual interaction between them, I mean what's Buffy withouth her tone of voice when she quips? OR Giles' when he's being serious or even Andrew?
*deep sigh* I know exactly what you mean. *misses show liek whoa*

And swirling coats. I miss swirling coats. (points to icon)

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I think Buffy isn't finished yet. There's more to the character, more to learn, especially after bringing more slayers into the world, how will Buffy deal with that, how will she regain her trust in her friends again, how will she deal with this changed world.

It's so much like AtS S5, it's a new format for the show. Angel joining the evil firm. Maybe if AtS ended in S4, people won't accept S5 in comic format as well, because it's a weird new thing we're not used to. Still even AtS would be weird, because there's no W&H anymore, most of Angel's friends are dead, there's only Angel, Spike, Illyria and maybe Gunn.

Personally, I'll read S8 and S6 comics and enjoy them. I miss these characters so much and I'm all for new ideas and developments. I guess the fact that I'm more interested in the Scooby gang than the Angel gang is what makes me more interested in S8 comics than S6 comics, still planning to read them and hopefully enjoy them as well.

[elisi]

I miss these characters so much and I'm all for new ideas and developments.
Oh me too. But the comics just aren't... they just aren't filling the void. Not more than any other fanfic. Comic!Buffy is *a* Buffy, not *the* Buffy, and it makes me sad and makes me miss the show even more.

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

Sadness and woe! As a good comics fan, weaned on Astonishing X-Men, I've been a "Season Eight is Canon" fan from the first announcement. (Goes off to weep over the first two issues).

And no, there is no coherant argument there. Other than assuming that comics are canon is predicated on liking the medium.

[elisi]

Oh but I *do* like the medium! The amount of money I've spent on 'Elfquest' could buy a lot of things...

It's just that Comic!Buffy isn't the same as Show!Buffy. Comic!Buffy is *a* Buffy, not *the* Buffy. (And no, it wouldn't matter if the drawings were photo realistic and as exquisite as a Vermeer. The leap is too great.)

[courtnificus.livejournal.com]

As far as I'm concerned, the comics are fanfic. Really, really good fanfic that just happens to be written by Joss; who, after all, has said time and time again that he is the biggest 'Buffy' fan of all. Well, this is his interpretation of what could have happened after the show finished. And I use the word finished for a reason, because that's what it did. I agree wholeheartedly with you that the story brought to us in the show was a collaborative effort on the part of many people. Joss was the brains of the opertation, but, to continute that metaphor, the rest of the cast and crew made up the body. The buffy in the comic is Joss' Buffy, not (yet anyway) anybody else's.
All of that said, I'm buying them, and plan to keep doing so. I think the trick is to not try forcing it into something it isn't -- the show.

[elisi]

Well, this is his interpretation of what could have happened after the show finished. And I use the word finished for a reason, because that's what it did.
Yes! Exactly! I'll keep reading too, since I'm sure Joss will tell a good story - but it's not the show.

[garfpooky.livejournal.com]

I definitely agree. It's nice to see what Joss had in mind for the characters, and although it takes place in time after S7, I'd hardly call it S8 canon. Reading it in comic book form is just way too drastic a change...and not only that, so many elements in the show have gone through drastic changes. Sunnydale's gone...and there's thousands of slayers whereas for the longest time we believed there could only be one (or 2, lol). It's too much to wrap my mind around. :P It's just not the same Buffy anymore... :\

[elisi]

Just realised I never replied to this comment! Sorry!

It's too much to wrap my mind around. :P It's just not the same Buffy anymore... :\
*sigh* I know. But then there is an *awful* lot of great fanfic out there...