elisi | OMG

I am... curious and excited. It's been 10 years since he was in charge it'll be interesting to see how he's changed (or not).

Re. the whole Timeless Child stuff then I'm wondering if it'll become something like the 'human mother' thing that was just NEVER mentioned again. That'd be nice. *g*

Human mother's just one or two lines though, whereas ignoring the Timeless Child would mean retconning at least a whole season, probably two. ;__;

MAYBE IT WILL ALL BE A DREAM?

Imagine the sheer AUDACITY!

I HOPE SO

We can always just say that it was.

After all, Doctor Who doesn't have a canon.

It does and it doesn't, it depends how I feel that afternoon.

Yeah.

I need to find that image again, with the different levels.

I stopped watching several seasons back so I have no idea what this Timeless Child business is, but it's Doctor Who! They can and have literally reset the universe, can't they just reset the universe again without this Timeless Child in it?

long story short: The Timeless Child is a name used to describe the Doctor when the s12 finale revealed that they showed up originally as a child from a different dimension and completed alone. A scientist, Tecteun, shows up and adopts her. The kid falls off a cliff one day, and the scientist sees them regenerate (this has never happened before). Tecteun then spends decades doing super unethical experiments on the child finding out how regeneration works- before finally cracking the code and trying it out on her self. Obvs it works because Tecteun finds a way to inject the ability into others, and thus the Time Lord society has started. The Doctor is eventually thanked for their service by being strapped into an electric chair, and having all memory of their first "life" tortured out of them.

Wow that's dumb. Maybe we can just all pretend it never happened.

kaffy_r has done a nice write up of the positives here. (Possibly unintended positives, but you know lets look at the silver lining.)

The one thing I would add it is that presumably Tecteun is meant to be 'The Other' - the mysterious third figure who set up the Time Lord civilisation along with Rassilon & Omega.

Also Sacha Dhawan is an AMAZING Master. Stepping into Missy's shoes is a thankless task, but he single-handedly made me excited about the show again. (When he was onscreen.)

I think I've stayed away from all the Timeless Child rage because I wasn't enraged about it in the least. I actually liked it. All the "It means the Doctor Isn't a Timelord!" arguments fell flat for me because a) Why do we trust everything the Master says? b) If Gallifreyan Timelords worked that hard to keep the Doctor thinking she was a Timelord, then they must think of her as a Timelord, too. I mean, Timelords can decide who Timelords are.

I suppose it's too late to do a post about this, largely because ... too late.

Same here. It adds a lot of serious layers when the main character is revealed to essentially be an immigrant that an entire society built itself off the back of, after stealing said immigrant's special ability.

also imo there some hilarious takes on Companions reactions to the revalation like Clara thinking back to when she got up to get a drink of water, and saw Twelve looking into a fridge- then turning his head towards her, and his eyes glowing like a damn cat's- then cutting back to Clara in present just dead-panning out "Yeah, that figures." xD

It adds a lot of serious layers when the main character is revealed to essentially be an immigrant that an entire society built itself off the back of, after stealing said immigrant's special ability.

Oh. My. God. This is brilliant. Why did I not see this? Would you mind if I put together a post about this, as long as I completely credit you with handing me an incredible lightbulb moment?

Sure! And I'll send you other links to really good takes that expand on said 'the Doctor is an immigrant' layer- I just need to dig through my tumblr first. :D

Many thanks!

Ichi
Ni
San

These are fantastic; thanks. I'm going to link to them in the post I've already completed.

I've seen that take around and I like it I just don't think it's something Chibs intended or plans to do anything with. (Though maybe if he's on tumblr he might now...)

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masakochan - 2021-09-25 13:12 (UTC) - Expand

Omg, I just read you icon. That is amazing.

I too skipped the Timeless Child rage. I wasn't instantly enamored of the idea either, but at least Chibbs was taking a risk for once. I'm willing to see where he's going with it, and the anti-colonialist commentary seemed plenty clear to me. It's a potent idea.

There's also been a heavy vein of 'the Doctor is a monster who's lived too long' in modern Who that . . . I understand why it's there from the Doctor's perspective, but has always sat uneasy with me as something coming from the show's side? And this just shoots an arrow straight through the heart of it.

ETA: Actually, I am annoyed at Chibbs for bringing Jack Harkness back for the last New Year's special and then utterly failing to address any of this. Jack is the 'the Doctor's a monster who's lived too long' mirror and you bring him back immediately surrounding the Doctor finding out that, actually, they're probably immortal too, and you just . . . don't do anything with it?! Huh?

ETA2: Moff had a habit of taking the things Rusty screwed up and fixing them by making them literally true, and frankly Chibbs has one-upped him by making the Doctor something like the principle of immortality itself. And how he's handing it all right back to Rusty with that boulder sitting right in the middle of it. Let us have no retconning here: make Rusty deal with what he has wrought.

Edited 2021-10-04 12:06 (UTC)

and the anti-colonialist commentary seemed plenty clear to me.

Which makes my obliviousness even more embarrassing to me.

but has always sat uneasy with me as something coming from the show's side?

I never noticed the "he's a monster" part, (or maybe I just chose to ignore it, because I never thought of him as a monster, even if he did monstrous things), and I was glad for some chewy backstory, because Classic Who was terribly deficient in that respect, but I definitely noted the "he's lived too long" bit. The "OMG I'm terrible, why don't I just die" suggestion is a bit too Emo Kid for me.

WRT Jack, I'm just annoyed that he brought Jack back without doing a damned bit of anything with him at all. And I worry, now that the Barrowman blowback doesn't seem to be dying anytime soon, that we'll never get Jack again. Damn it.

one-upped him by making the Doctor something like the principle of immortality itself.

OOOooo, yes!

Let us have no retconning here: make Rusty deal with what he has wrought.

Indeed. Heh.

Which makes my obliviousness even more embarrassing to me.
Oh like we don't alllllll have those moments. This is what the fandom hive-mind is for: we are smarter together.

I never noticed the "he's a monster" part, (or maybe I just chose to ignore it, because I never thought of him as a monster, even if he did monstrous things)
Good call, frankly.

I definitely noted the "he's lived too long" bit. The "OMG I'm terrible, why don't I just die" suggestion is a bit too Emo Kid for me.
I found watching Rusty Who, and particularly Ten, for the first time an infinitely trying experience (I got into the fandom with Eleven, and watched Rusty as season five was airing as it was immediately obvious to me that this was going to be one of ~those shows and I would need the background, no matter how much I had to pull my hair to get it.) The thing that finally . . . contextualized it all for me and let me watch with a bit more equanimity was River showing up and going 'dear god, you're hard work young'--effectively taking three seasons of epic angst and just cutting it off at the knees. It was like thank you, finally.

Of course, Stolen Earth/Journey's End came up immediately afterwords and I literally died of eye-rolling. But! It was nice there for a second.

I remember nattering to elisi about the Doctor is a monster who's lived too long thing when I rewatched The Lazarus Experiment after having seen The Timeless Children because TC improved TLE immensely for me, so I went and found it:

So, in the episode as it's written, there is a parallel made between Lazarus, who is pursuing immortality without regard for any suffering or other moral considerations that might apply, with the Doctor who may regret his quasi-immortality but is not actually, so far as we know/knew, doing anything in contradiction of his natural-born biological nature or surviving by killing other people (I know there's some grey here, but he's not sucking people dry and leaving their corpses to keep going ETA: If the Doctor is surviving at the expense of other people, it is a consequence of the way he chooses to live his life, not of any inherent biology and the fighting thereof. If the Doctor went off to live in a cabin the woods, it's not like he'd wither up and die unless he kept sacrificing people to keep himself young. If people are dying for the Doctor's sake and if he is at fault for this, his own lifespan has nothing to do with it). The Doctor finds his long life to be tragic, but this is the result of circumstances rather than a matter of his biological nature being inherently tragic, damaged, or morally wrong. The show and possibly the Doctor try to ask us whether the Doctor is a monster because of his extended lifespan (not that his extended lifespan and the Doctor's angst over it isn't a contributing factor to Ten becoming a monster, but they are not, in themselves, monstrous.) So while I find the Doctor's commentary on his own experience of long life to be interesting, I feel like the episode itself is setting up a faulty parallel? Not that there isn't value to be drawn from contrasting them as well, but it's just always sat wrong with me, much like the 'is the Doctor a god?' stuff. No, he isn't, next question. (I have more patience with Twelve questioning these things because he, as far as we all knew, did now have an unnaturally prolonged life. Well, ok, I'm not actually annoyed with Ten for thinking these things either, but I dislike the show giving it much credence.)

But with knowledge of The Timeless Children we have instead someone who is conducting harmful and cruel experiments in order to prolong his own life talking to someone who was themselves the subject of similar experiments and who has seen an entire civilization transformed by them and irrevocably warped. Not that the Doctor knows that's what's going on, of course, but it gives the whole thing this undercurrent that sizzles. For once when the Doctor gets all judge-y, a part of me is going, ok, fair enough, you do know. Even if he also doesn't know . . .

It's a bit of an extension of Moff's policies of fixing Rusty's mistakes by making things literally true? The Doctor has been made into the very principle of immortality itself. A bit, in a way, of a god. The only one who does have license to make absolute statements on the subject. Not entirely sure how I feel about that still, but if you're going to do something, frankly, do it right.

WRT Jack, I'm just annoyed that he brought Jack back without doing a damned bit of anything with him at all. And I worry, now that the Barrowman blowback doesn't seem to be dying anytime soon, that we'll never get Jack again. Damn it.
This! Alas. I mean, Jack was infinitely better served by Torchwood than he ever was on DW, but ONE COULD HOPE. And now, as you say, any future returns seem increasingly unlikely.

Indeed. Heh.
I was also deeply amused by this:

https://theoneandonlytruejack.tumblr.com/post/663310176367132672

because I'm pretty sure the chain of retconning means that now Rusty has to bring Gallifrey back, and isn't that a delicious irony?

There's also been a heavy vein of 'the Doctor is a monster who's lived too long' in modern Who that . . . I understand why it's there from the Doctor's perspective, but has always sat uneasy with me as something coming from the show's side? And this just shoots an arrow straight through the heart of it.
It's funny because I see it completely opposite? Time Lords - like, normal ones who don't become renegades and throw a life away every other day - have regenerations that last 1000 years each approx. Meaning that an average Time Lord lives 10,000 years at least. possibly up to 13,000 if they're properly careful. The Doctor whinging about being 'living too long' when he's barely 1000 is ridiculous. (Sidebar: It makes perfect sense wrt Ten etc etc, the man had issues.) It CAN make sense if viewed through the lens of having lost his whole species and thus being the only one living that long. But in and of itself it's not a bad or unnatural thing, it's like a human hanging out with dogs and lamenting that they're too old when they're 20 or 30.

frankly Chibbs has one-upped him by making the Doctor something like the principle of immortality itself. And how he's handing it all right back to Rusty with that boulder sitting right in the middle of it. Let us have no retconning here: make Rusty deal with what he has wrought.
*claps* I hadn't thought of this, I LOVE IT.

The Doctor whinging about being 'living too long' when he's barely 1000 is ridiculous.
Well, he's probably lying about his age, but you make a good point, and I would dearly love to see Romana show up and make it.

But in and of itself it's not a bad or unnatural thing, it's like a human hanging out with dogs and lamenting that they're too old when they're 20 or 30.
*heavy snort* I'm gonna remember that one.

*claps* I hadn't thought of this, I LOVE IT.
I am most definitely over-hyping myself for Rusty's return and there is a heavy serving of schadenfreude involved, but like . . . how can I not? SO, WE MEET AGAIN, RUSSEL. LET'S SEE WHAT YOU'VE GOT THIS TIME. *muaahhhhhhhaahahah*

Well, he's probably lying about his age, but you make a good point, and I would dearly love to see Romana show up and make it.
omg Romana... What bribery do you think he'd accept? (Also I'm not sure he's lying as such, I'm with Moffat and think he just doesn't know. *g*)

*heavy snort* I'm gonna remember that one.
I am pleased.

I am most definitely over-hyping myself for Rusty's return and there is a heavy serving of schadenfreude involved, but like . . . how can I not? SO, WE MEET AGAIN, RUSSEL. LET'S SEE WHAT YOU'VE GOT THIS TIME. *muaahhhhhhhaahahah*
Mmm. This AND having to bring back Gallifrey.