Thirteen Thoughts: 3. S11 Episode thoughts.

[elisi]

So, what is Chibnall Who like, judged by its first season? Well, it’s nice. Fine, really. Bit pedestrian, with a few flashes of greatness and one massive clusterfuck. (Or, as some people have said, safe.) The thing is, if it hadn’t been for Kerblam! really pissing me off I might not be writing anything at all, because I have precious little to say. If this hadn’t been Doctor Who I’d probably just have drifted away the way I do when something doesn’t really capture me. Doesn’t mean it’s bad — lots of people have come back to the show, so it’s obviously working for others — just that it’s not what I’m looking for in a TV show. (What that something is, isn’t easy to pin down, so I shan’t try. *g*) Anyway, this is all very weird for me, cause I'm a Pollyanna and just being mostly meh isn't like me. :(

This post is just me going through the episodes, mostly just so I can point towards it and say ‘These are my thoughts on S11’. I sort of group the episodes together in my head, so will do them in groups (or individually) as necessary. More or less keeping to the order they appeared in, skipping Kerblam! since that one gets a whole section of its own.



S11 Episode Thoughts
Regeneration Episode
The Woman Who Fell to Earth

Regeneration episodes fall in a category of their own, and this one was pretty great. Lots of Thirteen finding her feet, great introductions to the companions, Tim Shaw was… so-so, but he was also a good metaphor for toxic masculinity, so his patheticness sorta worked *for* him, rather than against. It was funny, inventive, and we had a great sense of the place (yay Sheffield!) right from the sunny start to the night time industrial darkness that the Doctor crashed down into. New everything, and it worked well. A great start, zero complaints (well, they killed Grace, that was pretty bad…). OK, apart from ONE complaint this was a great start.


Episodes That Are Just Sort of There
The Ghost Monument
Arachnids In The UK
The Tsuranga Conundrum
The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos

It’s unfortunate that most of Chibnalls episodes this season just never really worked. I don’t know if he was rushed, if he quite simply can’t write to the required level or if it’s a combination of several factors (I know the writer of Tsuranga dropped out and Chibnall had to somehow salvage it). I hope in future he just hires good writers and does less writing himself. The main issue is that this is… nearly half the season. And it was just sort of ‘well that was okay’. Although — going with my ‘I’lll settle for serviceable’ icon and my expectations — I suppose they just about fill the ‘serviceable’ criteria. Of course there’s always an episode or two which doesn’t work, but I think the issue with these is that although I was perfectly adequately entertained while they were on, and some of them had good stuff (say, the Doctor asking her new friends to travel with her), they made no particular lasting impact. I don’t dislike them, but overall I was far more engaged during S22 of Classic Who, which is apparently the ‘worst’ Classic season. (I liked Timelash, so there!)

Anyway I’ll go through the eps and jot down a few thoughts on each:

The Ghost Monument
From a viewing perspective this one is my least favourite of Chibnall’s. The concept is great, and there are a few good ideas, but it never gels, never feels dangerous and if it hadn’t been for the fact that the Doctor gets the TARDIS back at the end I’d happily just forget all about it. (I don’t hate it, it’s not awful, it just needed more everything.)

Arachnids In The UK
Massive spiders are good. Like, that’s an excellent Doctor Who idea, and the show used them pretty well. The GIANT one bursting through the bathtub is still a highlight, and I can’t believe it hasn’t been done before. Also we got to meet Yaz’s family, which was nice, and not!Trump was nicely done, but overall the No Guns!/the show forgetting Yaz was a police officer/the lack of resolution let it down. Which is sad, because it had the bones of being good, and even had good messages about pollution and rich people buying their way out of any problems.

The Tsuranga Conundrum
This one was my favourite of this lot, and I wouldn’t mind re-watching it. Sure it was mostly ‘a bunch of stuff that happened’ with no particular message, but the Pting was adorable and weird and different, we had a nice female war hero (who sacrificed herself nobly, like they do in stories such as this), we got to find out more about Ryan and he got some insight into his father’s possible motivations, the Doctor got to be clever and overall it was a fun episode that looked great and just zipped along nicely.

The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos
*Sigh* Again, this could have been great. Tim Shaw setting himself up as a god should have been prime Doctor-mirror material, Graham wanting to avenge his wife should have been a great opportunity for the Doctor to open up about her past, the Captain with amnesia should have been another brilliant Doctor mirror… and yet, nothing. All wasted opportunities. And then they locked up Tim Shaw in a stasis chamber, a fate really quite similar to what Ten did to The Family of Blood (as others have pointed out before me), and that was supposed to be the nice option.


‘Pure’/‘Fixed Point’/Educational Historicals
Rosa
Demons of the Punjab

‘Pure’ historicals, where they can’t interfere with events/have to work to keep history intact, no matter how horrible. Solidly good and educational, and ones where it was difficult to imagine the stories being possible with another Doctor. Occasionally very difficult viewing — staying seated so Rosa could be arrested, walking away from Prem being shot — but history is full of horrible events and I thought it tackled the stories very well. Also great to have writers who are not white and male. MORE PLEASE. And not just historicals, lets have an Afrofuturism story or similar? (That is the one thing about Classic Who — everyone is white. Well, the Seventh Doctor era does quite well with representation — sometimes better than current TV — but overall Classic Who is so overwhelmingly white it’s ridiculous.) The one caveat is that you can feel the strain of the show in tackling these stories. The Doctor is interventionist by nature, and walking away feels wrong on several levels. They are beautiful, beautiful stories, and I am 100% glad we got them, but it’s like they’re a second out of of synch with what a Doctor Who story should be.


Proper Celebrity Historical
The Witchfinders

OTOH this was a Proper Celebrity Historical, with killer mud and aliens and the Doctor interfering for all she’s worth. This episode pretty much single-handedly restored my faith in the show, as I was genuinely debating whether to just quit after Kerblam! Although it also highlighted the issues so far. I was genuinely worried that the Doctor wouldn’t save the woman who was being drowned for witchcraft. That is: I was worried that the Doctor had quite simply stopped fulfilling her story purpose. (This shouldn’t be a question. This shouldn’t be something we worry about, unless there is good cause.) But then all was well and it was just Actual Doctor Who and they hadn’t forgotten how to make the show! :D And the Doctor finally had problems because of her gender (which was good, because ignoring it completely is just unrealistic) and we got actual insights into Yaz and Graham wore a hat and Alan Cumming ate ALL THE SCENERY and flirted with Ryan and the villain was complex and god, I had missed this show.


Highlight of the season
It Takes You Away
The undisputed highlight of the season; weird, thought-provoking, magical. If the Doctor’s speech to the solitract had been somewhat better written/had more weight/had a longer set-up, it’d have been a straight A. But that’s a minor drawback for an otherwise brilliant episode, with a blind actress playing a blind part (!) and absent fathers dealing with loss and Graham getting to see Grace and generally lots of character stuff. And the Doctor got long scenes with Yaz, confirming that the Doctor has ‘a Type’, and that type is ‘Smart Young Human Woman’. I didn’t really like the labyrinth part, but it was well done, and the mythological allusions worked great. Also everything being literally mirrored and… yeah, I should write more, and maybe one day I will. Also it was the only episode of the season that I immediately re-watched. (In my head, the only interesting/‘real’ episodes are probably The Woman Who Fell To Earth, The Witchfinders and this one. The pure historicals are great, but sort of a different category of story. Which might explain why I’m so dissatisfied — a season that feels 3 episodes long isn’t much.)


The New Year’s Special
Resolution
Big Dalek episode. Perfectly fine, apart from the Doctor referring to the Dalek as a refugee and the awful awful scene with the family ‘having to have a conversation’. Oh the dead gay. (Again!) Almost lumped it in with Episodes That Are Just Sort of There, but it had a proper story and there was a Dalek and Ryan’s dad and I quite enjoyed it. Also it looked great, we had the neat parallel of the Dalek making its casing from Sheffield steel, just like the Doctor made her screwdriver. And the Doctor giving Ryan’s dad grief about his behaviour. In my head this one is the bookend to the season, rather than Battle of Ranskoor av Kolos. And the bit where they were trying to throw the Dalek into a sun and all that was just gorgeous. I liked it more than it comes across here, but I just can’t really think of anything to say. (I am really not good at just ‘reviews’ and ‘I liked this’ and ‘I disliked that’. Hence never really writing about anything I like, if I can’t do meta.)


I have not talked about the elephant in the room, because guess what, that is the ONE episode I had a lot of thoughts about. And be warned, they’re not terribly positive. (/understatement) Since I hate being negative, we’ll see when I get round to posting…

Comments

[promethia_tenk]

Yup, it was sure a . . . season of television.

[elisi]

There were moving pictures and music and all sorts!

[promethia_tenk]

It's funny. Your continual annoyance with Thirteen just makes me like her more. And I need to reiterate to you that this is wrong and backwards and I need it fixed.

But the season itself? Was just boring. I got nothing.

[elisi]

It's funny. Your continual annoyance with Thirteen just makes me like her more. And I need to reiterate to you that this is wrong and backwards and I need it fixed.
So if I like her more, you'll like her less? We... may have a problem. ;)

But the season itself? Was just boring. I got nothing.

[beer_good_foamy]

Pretty much agreed. I wasn't entirely sold on the America-pandering of "Rosa", as well-made and well-meaning as the episode was, and the labyrinth was the one big smudge on the otherwise very good "It Takes You Away", "Witchfinders" was good except I kept expecting Baldrick to pop up.

The one caveat is that you can feel the strain of the show in tackling these stories. The Doctor is interventionist by nature, and walking away feels wrong on several levels. They are beautiful, beautiful stories, and I am 100% glad we got them, but it’s like they’re a second out of of synch with what a Doctor Who story should be.

What was that quote from RTD re: "Voyage of the Damned"?
The disaster movie fights the essential nature of the Doctor, because he becomes just Any Old Survivor - a clever one, yes, the leader, yes, but a hapless victim of events. He's lacking. Now, when the plot turns and he changes ('No more!' he says), then he's in charge again and good old Doctor Who kicks in...

I'm not entirely sure I agree that that should always be the case, but... There should at least be an awareness that it's unusual for the Doctor to sit back and let events take place. There's a different story to tell around that that I'm not entirely sure that episode nailed.

[elisi]

Pretty much agreed.
I'd say 'Yay', but going 'yay' over something essentially 'meh' seems weird...

I wasn't entirely sold on the America-pandering of "Rosa", as well-made and well-meaning as the episode was
I didn't mind it. A lot of people seem to love it, and many more went to look her up afterwards, so... On the whole I think it was a good thing. El Sandifer's issue ('If you wait long enough, change will come. Don't expect anything to get better anytime soon') is another issue though...

and the labyrinth was the one big smudge on the otherwise very good "It Takes You Away",
Not just me then! I liked the mythological connotations, but overall it was just weird and a bit... unpleasant? Like that bit had crossed over from Sabrina.

"Witchfinders" was good except I kept expecting Baldrick to pop up.
... Damn, now I want that to happen.

What was that quote from RTD re: "Voyage of the Damned"?
Good old RTD.

I'm not entirely sure I agree that that should always be the case, but... There should at least be an awareness that it's unusual for the Doctor to sit back and let events take place. There's a different story to tell around that that I'm not entirely sure that episode nailed.
*ponders* Now I am comparing it to Classic Who, where there are stories like Earthshock or Warriors of the Deep or Caves of Androzani, where part of the story is that the Doctor can't win, even though he tries... But then, none of them are historicals. It's the Fixed Point issue, I think. Where say S6 was built around a Fixed Point and the narrative turned around it, here it's used as a tool for 'not intervening'. (OK, maybe not literally a Fixed Point, but if they change things too much Yaz might stop existing.) It's a sort of terrible catch-22, but the Doctor walking away is still absolutely awful and I don't know how they could have done that differently without changing the whole set-up. /random musings

[promethia_tenk]

I think the crucial difference between the problem Rusty identifies with Voyage of the Damned and the way that Rosa and Punjab function in this season is that Rusty was fighting the purpose of a Doctor Who story to no purpose. We weren't exploring something important about the Doctor's psyche or about, like, the nature of time and loss by putting the Doctor in a disaster film. It was just the Doctor, in a disaster film, not fitting in and looking bad.

Whereas I would definitely class Rosa and Punjab in with . . . Father's Day, Fires of Pompeii, Waters of Mars, Androzani, even something like Vincent and the Doctor? In that, yes, they're outside the formula of Doctor Who, but that breaking the formula is creating greater meaning through the contrast.

As for those stories specifically: I in no way want 'the Doctor has to do nothing' to become its own genre, but dammit, I like that they're putting the Doctor into a situation and making her have to make a choice about the fundamental level on which she needs to approach it rather than just plowing through on her usual MO. I would really like it if the show found a way to . . . have the Doctor learning how to use a fuller range of responses. Sometimes you save one person, sometimes you overthrow the government, but a lot of times? The right answer is somewhere in between. And the show, historically, has been very bad at that middle ground.

[elisi]

It was just the Doctor, in a disaster film, not fitting in and looking bad.
LOL. And it's interesting that his purpose (or at least the purpose RTD made him find) was... his privilege.

SLADE: Hang on a minute. Who put you in charge and who the hell are you anyway?
DOCTOR: I'm the Doctor. I'm a Time Lord. I'm from the planet Gallifrey in the constellation of Kasterborous. I'm nine hundred and three years old and I'm the man who's going to save your lives and all six billion people on the planet below. You got a problem with that?

Which I suppose is an interesting look into the Doctor's psyche, if you want to try to read things into it...

Whereas I would definitely class Rosa and Punjab in with . . . Father's Day, Fires of Pompeii, Waters of Mars, Androzani, even something like Vincent and the Doctor? In that, yes, they're outside the formula of Doctor Who, but that breaking the formula is creating greater meaning through the contrast.
Yeah, I'm not against it at all. I think it is a good thing to do, and somehow Demons of the Punjab feels *worse* (they walk away from a single man being shot by his brother) than say, Pompeii (they blow up a volcano, killing thousands).

I would really like it if the show found a way to . . . have the Doctor learning how to use a fuller range of responses. Sometimes you save one person, sometimes you overthrow the government, but a lot of times? The right answer is somewhere in between. And the show, historically, has been very bad at that middle ground.
Generally the Doctor has gone back to his box and flown away. Which I was reminded of, watching The Masque of Mandragora (to pick a random example, it just happens to be the most recent ep), because (as far as I could tell) lots of people die (Giuliano will come back to a palace littered with dead bodies), but the Doctor does a quip about salami and is happy he saved the day. If you think about it, it jars horribly.

(I sort of just woken up, apologies if this is rather vague.)

[masakochan]

but the Doctor walking away is still absolutely awful

Have you ever seen any of the First Doctor's serial 'The Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Eve'? Wikipedia at least has a decent summary of the serial considering that it's one of the 'missing ones'.

Thirteen not intervening and people being angry with that- reminds of me a bit of it. Mainly just cuz' the audience reaction is a bit like Steven's utter anger at the Doctor saying that there's nothing they can do and just need to leave.

[promethia_tenk]

That's a good point. I've not seen that one, but the idea that you can't muck about with history goes alllllll the way back to the beginning. It's in the bones of the show:

-The Aztecs is Barbara wanting to change history, the Doctor having to tell her no, and her failing.

-The character who really 'broke the seal' on history and started the historicals where it wasn't sacrosanct was the Meddling Monk, who was, in fact, trying to do a seemingly good thing (save Britain from a Viking invasion) that would have disastrous consequences on the whole history of Britain. (I mean, his purpose was the screw up history, but it could look noble from the outside. He really is a far better foil for the Doctor than the Master is in a lot of ways, dammit. Bring back the Monk!)

-The crime that Two and Six are both put on trial for is meddling.

-My favorite serial that got forgotten way too fast: Face of Evil, a.k.a. the one where we actually see what can happen when the Doctor saves the day and saunters off carelessly without thinking through the consequences. And Underworld, a.k.a., the one where we find out why the Time Lords don't mess with other civilizations.

Rusty and Moff did a really good job of deconstructing the Doctor's power complex, but the Doctor's basic carelessness and disruptiveness is in a lot of ways a subtler and more deeply woven problem. Heck, it is the show, basically, and therefore far tricker to deal with without killing the show, but I don't think that means it shouldn't be addressed?

[elisi]

but the Doctor's basic carelessness and disruptiveness is in a lot of ways a subtler and more deeply woven problem. Heck, it is the show, basically, and therefore far tricker to deal with without killing the show, but I don't think that means it shouldn't be addressed?
I don't mind addressing it, but currently it's like it's sticking its head in the sand.

[elisi]

I have yet to watch any of the First Doctor (well, except for the very beginning, I have seen up to & including The Edge Of Destruction), but it's not unique. It crops up (someone mentioned Pompeii I think?) and of course it's what Water of Mars turns on.

Of course the Doctor isn't a god, and sometimes walking away is the only option. But the Doctor's role is usually to upset the status quo and be a disruptive Trickster, so when that aspect goes missing for an extended period we *should* worry...

[c_carol]

I agree with pretty nearly every single word of this. Very well done.

The only episode that I'd rate differently is 'Witchfinders'. The bad theology annoyed me so much that it sort of dragged down what was otherwise a decent-enough episode. (And I acknowledge that this is mostly me overreacting to what's really a very minor flaw in the story.) Also, while the characters and their interactions were fun, the actual alien menace itself was a bit boring.

As for the unmentioned story, I think I'm going to go with 'it didn't actually happen.' Doctor Who canon is _flexible_, OK? Sometimes you have to flex it quite a lot.

[elisi]

I agree with pretty nearly every single word of this. Very well done.
*is pleased* Thank you! I'm glad I bothered to write it all up.

The only episode that I'd rate differently is 'Witchfinders'. The bad theology annoyed me so much that it sort of dragged down what was otherwise a decent-enough episode.
Ah yes. Trying to work out why it didn't bother me more (because I care about theology!), it's partly that I expect TV to get theology wrong (whereas I detest Kerblam! for getting the Doctor wrong, surely that's the baseline?) and partly that on a Watsonian level the Doctor probably doesn't know a great deal about theology, so it's forgivable. (The WRITER on the other hand should learn better!)

Also, while the characters and their interactions were fun, the actual alien menace itself was a bit boring.
I was just so pathetically grateful to have the show back that I didn't care. The fact that the alien was a bit rubbish sort of almost made it better? It was just a perfectly ordinary episode of Doctor Who, the kinda thing that could sit in any season and be okay, but not great.

As for the unmentioned story, I think I'm going to go with 'it didn't actually happen.' Doctor Who canon is _flexible_, OK? Sometimes you have to flex it quite a lot.
Hey, I've decided that the whole of Torchwood: Miracle Day was eaten by the crack (from S5) so it never happened at all! But I am too angry about Kerblam! to let it go. *pokes angry post* I'll probably end up posting, just to get it out of my system.

[orangerful]

oh good, I thought it was just me. I got pretty bored with this season and gave up. :( Maybe I'll go back once it's on Amazon so I can stream them easily and not have to watch all the commercials on BBC America. Or maybe not. I haven't been in love with Who since season 5.

[elisi]

oh good, I thought it was just me. I got pretty bored with this season and gave up. :(
Nope, not just you.

I haven't been in love with Who since season 5.
That is sad. :( I love... the *show*, I love the concept, the history, the everything. I'm working my way through Classic Who and although some of it is, um, not good, the accumulation of understanding and knowledge is very enjoyable. And some of the new show has been difficult and dark, but it's intrigued me and made me think and delved into corners usually left alone (often with good cause, but hey). But when I would much rather watch a six-parter from 1975, with dodgy effects and big rubber monsters than a shiny new episode from 2018, because the old one has substance and the new one feels empty... the new one has a problem.

[orangerful]

Yeah, the pressure to churn them out every week definitely shows. I was kind of excited when they took so much time for 13, hoping they were working hard on some solid scripts but...yeah. I just miss being excited for a new episode, instead of it feeling like work to sit down and watch because you didn't know if it was going to be amazing or just boring. (luckily, the completely bad is few and far between...not non-existent but better than most)

[elisi]

You should read The Writers Tale - the work (especially all the behind the scenes) is amazing, it's a LOT more work than most ordinary TV shows.

And yeah, I know what you mean. S11 has just been... vaguely OK. I wasn't expecting meta (I was terribly spoiled with Moffat), but Classic Who is perfectly entertaining... And other people seem to find Chibnall perfectly entertaining too, so I guess that's good.

[sea_thoughts]

The Woman Who Fell to Earth - a pretty brutal first episode, Tim Shaw leaves a trail of dead bodies, Grace was just the last one. :/

The Ghost Monument - the most memorable moment in this episode comes right at the end (which isn't good, really), when the Doctor hears the TARDIS and we all thought of the Moment's speech to the War Doctor: "You know the sound the TARDIS makes? That wheezing, groaning? That sound brings hope wherever it goes… To anyone who hears it, Doctor. Anyone. However lost. Even you." And Thirteen's face lights up and she whispers "Come to Daddy - I mean, Mummy! I mean - I really need you right now!" :') I think the idea had potential but it wasn't explored enough.

Arachnids In The UK - concept was great (it's amazing that Who hasn't done giant spiders before) but again, execution was lacking.

The one caveat is that you can feel the strain of the show in tackling these stories. The Doctor is interventionist by nature, and walking away feels wrong on several levels. They are beautiful, beautiful stories, and I am 100% glad we got them, but it’s like they’re a second out of of synch with what a Doctor Who story should be.

Having TWO historical stories in one series where Team TARDIS has to NOT do anything to save the day would have been a bit much even if the Doctor had been proactive in the rest of her episodes but the problem is that for most of S11 (with the exception of Witchfinders and It Takes You Away), the Doctor is passive and concerned with maintaining the status quo no matter what. This approach is actually justified in these episodes but that throws the others in which it isn't into sharp relief.

The Witchfinders - Alan Cumming was marvellous, the focus on femininity and women's role in society was REALLY welcome, the Doctor FINALLY took a stand and this is a period of history that doesn't get a lot of attention (especially if you compare it to the Elizabethan Period that comes straight before it and the Civil War that comes after) so full marks from me.

It Takes You Away - gorgeous, what Who does best. My only quibble was the Doctor and Yaz coming down hard on Ryan for mentioning that Hanna's dad might have abandoned her due to her mum's death when Yaz at least knows that's what happened to Ryan and then it turned out that was almost EXACTLY what Hanna's dad had done and there was no apology made to Ryan at all.

[sea_thoughts]

The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos - Graham wanting to avenge Grace seems to come out of nowhere after he finally came to terms with her death in the previous (wonderful) episode. And I completely agree that locking Tim Shaw in stasis was NOT the nice option, wtaf Chibnall. It reminded me a little bit of the end of Prisoner of Azkaban when Harry prevents Wormtail being murdered, only to say that he should be taken back to Azkaban and have his soul sucked out. So much more merciful! O_o It's a shame because this is the one episode where we had some actual conflict in Team TARDIS and it wasn't resolved properly at all.

Resolution - the Dalek was great (single Dalek stories do tend to be much better than when they're in a horde); I loved the joke about UNIT being shut down due to cutbacks and their various services being outsourced, although it was also painful and I really hope that wasn't Chibnall's way of saying we'll never see Kate Lethbridge-Stewart again because WHYYYYY. It was really good to see Ryan's dad, I was starting to wonder if he would be the kind of character who's always talked about but never seen. I may be mean-spirited but I kind of thought Ryan would let him go into the sun, it's not as if he had done much but I guess that is the real tribute to Grace, not locking Tim Shaw away. The scene with the family was awful, it reminded me of the worst moments from the RTD era except I don't think RTD would have been so mean-spirited and he definitely wouldn't have called the Dalek a 'refugee'. Another WTF moment: the companions STAYING in the TARDIS and not one of them running to check on the Doctor while she confronted the Dalek, we didn't even get a scene of them inside wondering what was going on! Nor did any of them question the Doctor about why the fight with the Dalek was 'personal' or about her fighting the Daleks before.

[elisi]

Graham wanting to avenge Grace seems to come out of nowhere after he finally came to terms with her death in the previous (wonderful) episode.
See I don't mind that? Accepting that she is dead doesn't mean forgiving the one who killed her. I thought it was a very good and believable character-beat, and also loved how matter-of-fact he was about it. Not a young hot head (*cough* Peter Quill *cough*) but an older man quite simply making a statement. There were A MILLION PARALLELS that could have been made to the Doctor's past and yet... nothing. Boo!

when Harry prevents Wormtail being murdered, only to say that he should be taken back to Azkaban and have his soul sucked out. So much more merciful! O_o
I had forgotten that. But then it's 20+ years since I read it. But yeah, it's hugely problematic all round. Much like letting the big spider die of suffocation. Actually... Locking up Tim Shaw could be seen as a metaphor for how Thirteen is dealing with her past? I.e. she isn't at all, she's just locking it away.

although it was also painful and I really hope that wasn't Chibnall's way of saying we'll never see Kate Lethbridge-Stewart again because WHYYYYY.
Imagine how fab Thirteen & Kate would be... Also people might think they were sisters or something, their hair is quite similar...

I may be mean-spirited but I kind of thought Ryan would let him go into the sun, it's not as if he had done much but I guess that is the real tribute to Grace, not locking Tim Shaw away.
I like that.

I don't think RTD would have been so mean-spirited and he definitely wouldn't have called the Dalek a 'refugee'.
Not in a million years.

Another WTF moment: the companions STAYING in the TARDIS and not one of them running to check on the Doctor while she confronted the Dalek, we didn't even get a scene of them inside wondering what was going on! Nor did any of them question the Doctor about why the fight with the Dalek was 'personal' or about her fighting the Daleks before.
They are PAINFULLY passive. Can we have ANY sort of pushback please? I miss Martha dragging up a chair and refusing to budge until the Doctor told her the truth, or Donna just slapping him. Or Amy or Clara who were experts at forcing him to talk.

[sea_thoughts]

See I don't mind that? Accepting that she is dead doesn't mean forgiving the one who killed her.

That's true, I guess it's more the lack of build up to Graham (who's been generally the one with common sense) suddenly declaring he's going to kill someone. Which goes into the lack of character building in general.

Locking up Tim Shaw could be seen as a metaphor for how Thirteen is dealing with her past? I.e. she isn't at all, she's just locking it away.

Yeah, so when is it going to escape and bit her in the bum?

Imagine how fab Thirteen & Kate would be... Also people might think they were sisters or something, their hair is quite similar...

I would love it! The Doctor would be exceedingly flattered, Kate maybe not so much? XD

They are PAINFULLY passive. Can we have ANY sort of pushback please? I miss Martha dragging up a chair and refusing to budge until the Doctor told her the truth, or Donna just slapping him. Or Amy or Clara who were experts at forcing him to talk.

Yeah, I miss Rory telling the Doctor he's dangerous because he makes people want to impress him, or Danny saying that the Doctor lights the fire but he's the one who'll carry you out. :/

[elisi]

That's true, I guess it's more the lack of build up to Graham (who's been generally the one with common sense) suddenly declaring he's going to kill someone. Which goes into the lack of character building in general.
And Graham is the one with far more character work than the others...

Yeah, so when is it going to escape and bit her in the bum?


I would love it! The Doctor would be exceedingly flattered, Kate maybe not so much? XD
Dr: Oooh, we could be sisters! Here, we should take a selfie!
Kate: ... Can we not?

Yeah, I miss Rory telling the Doctor he's dangerous because he makes people want to impress him, or Danny saying that the Doctor lights the fire but he's the one who'll carry you out. :/
Uh-huh. I think it was one of the things that endeared me to Peri? Sure, she and the Doctor argue all the time, but she is constantly calling him out!

Here, have a very typical exchange (this one's from the start of Vengeance on Varos):

DOCTOR: That's it.
PERI: I don't believe it.
DOCTOR: I haven't told you what I've done, yet.
PERI: You sound confident. I don't want to know.
DOCTOR: What is the matter with you?
PERI: Every time you sound confident nowadays, something terrible seems to happen.
DOCTOR: Does it? What do you mean?
PERI: Well, since we left Telos, you've caused three electrical fires, a total power failure, and a near collision with a storm of asteroids. Not only that, you've twice managed to get yourself lost in the Tardis corridors, wiped the memory of the flight computer and jettisoned three quarters of the storage hold. You even managed to burn dinner last night.
DOCTOR: I have never said I was perfect.
PERI: If you recall, last night I was supposed to have a cold supper.
DOCTOR: That was an unfortunate accident.
PERI: Before each and every unfortunate accident, you've said in a loud, confident voice, that's it. And to be honest, Doc, I am getting tired of clearing up the mess and being thrown around the Tardis like the teddy bear of some psychotic baby.

[sea_thoughts]

Graham is the one with far more character work than the others...

I know!! *facepalm*

Dr: Oooh, we could be sisters! Here, we should take a selfie!
Kate: ... Can we not?

"We do NOT look like sisters."
"Look, a bit of wear and tear isn't a bad thing-"
"MOVING ON."

I think it was one of the things that endeared me to Peri? Sure, she and the Doctor argue all the time, but she is constantly calling him out!

I think Peri would get a lot more respect if it weren't for those skimpy outfits that Nicola Bryant was forced to wear "for the dads" (blergh). She doesn't let anyone get away with ANYTHING.

[elisi]

LOL at your Dr/Kate interactions. GO ON CHIBBERS! You know you want to.

I think Peri would get a lot more respect if it weren't for those skimpy outfits that Nicola Bryant was forced to wear "for the dads" (blergh). She doesn't let anyone get away with ANYTHING.


She deserved ALL THE NICE THINGS!

[elisi]

a pretty brutal first episode, Tim Shaw leaves a trail of dead bodies, Grace was just the last one. :/
Oh yeah, very dark, but also lots of light moments (Thirteen is a hoot!) and i was fully expecting Chibnall Who to be dark. I don't mind dark, as long as its good. If the rest of the season had stuck to the tone (and quality) of this ep, things would have been a lot better!

I think the idea had potential but it wasn't explored enough.
Yes, the ending is lovely! ♥ The ending deserved a better episode to be attached to.

concept was great (it's amazing that Who hasn't done giant spiders before) but again, execution was lacking.
I enjoyed it! It was good fun. But that's sort of all.

This approach is actually justified in these episodes but that throws the others in which it isn't into sharp relief.
Yes this. The Doctor just KEEPS walking away. Or being left, helpless. These eps should stand out as unusual, but they seemed to follow a bigger pattern. :( And the thing is, those stories are very valid (there are some in the Classic show that are just brutal), but they should be an aberration.

so full marks from me.
It was like the show could finally breathe again! Also, Alan Cumming <3

and then it turned out that was almost EXACTLY what Hanna's dad had done and there was no apology made to Ryan at all.
I don't think I even noticed... But then the character work has been so hap-hazard that I sort of don't think about it much.

[sea_thoughts]

I don't mind dark, as long as its good. If the rest of the season had stuck to the tone (and quality) of this ep, things would have been a lot better!?

That's certainly true.

And the thing is, those stories are very valid (there are some in the Classic show that are just brutal), but they should be an aberration.

You can have these episodes but they should be the exception not the rule.

I don't think I even noticed... But then the character work has been so hap-hazard that I sort of don't think about it much.

It was mainly that Ryan turned out to have been right and it wasn't brought up at all.

[elisi]

That's certainly true.
Someone (on DoWntime, I think) said how they'd expected Chibnall Who to be more like his previous work - say the Doctor stuck at Earth, working with UNIT (so echoes of Torchwood & police procedurals) with that sort of tone, and I think that would have been a great idea; playing to his strengths, rather than trying (and mostly failing) to be whimsical.

You can have these episodes but they should be the exception not the rule.
*nods a LOT*

It was mainly that Ryan turned out to have been right and it wasn't brought up at all.
Well, I am sure RYAN felt vindicated.

[sea_thoughts]

Someone (on DoWntime, I think) said how they'd expected Chibnall Who to be more like his previous work - say the Doctor stuck at Earth, working with UNIT (so echoes of Torchwood & police procedurals) with that sort of tone, and I think that would have been a great idea

That would have been a nice callback to the Third Doctor and a good way of treading water while still doing interesting things.

Well, I am sure RYAN felt vindicated.

We'll never know, but I hope so!

[elisi]

That would have been a nice callback to the Third Doctor and a good way of treading water while still doing interesting things.
Wouldn't it just? And Thirteen is hilarious in 'everyday' situations.

... But it was me, an Internet Meme!

[(Anonymous)]

Having TWO historical stories in one series where Team TARDIS has to NOT do anything to save the day would have been a bit much even if the Doctor had been proactive in the rest of her episodes but the problem is that for most of S11 (with the exception of Witchfinders and It Takes You Away), the Doctor is passive and concerned with maintaining the status quo no matter what. This approach is actually justified in these episodes but that throws the others in which it isn't into sharp relief.
Yes, this.

I'm gonna have to defend Harry Potter, Wormtail wouldn't have had his soul sucked out, he'd get a life sentence in Azkaban. So yeah, I wouldn't exactly call it a Family of Blood situation, it is merciful.
(I mean, I could and would make a case that a life sentence -especially in Azkaban- is worse than a death sentence, but I know this is a controversial topic -and it's not the point here anyway, so.)

Re: ... But it was me, an Internet Meme!

[elisi]

Yes, this.
It's very annoying, because it actually stops the historicals from being as effective as they should be. The Doctor's non-intervention should stand out.

I'm gonna have to defend Harry Potter, Wormtail wouldn't have had his soul sucked out, he'd get a life sentence in Azkaban. So yeah, I wouldn't exactly call it a Family of Blood situation, it is merciful.
I thought that might be the case, but it's been that long since I read the books...

(I mean, I could and would make a case that a life sentence -especially in Azkaban- is worse than a death sentence, but I know this is a controversial topic -and it's not the point here anyway, so.)
The problem is 'locking Tim Shaw up for eternity' is seen as better than execution. Because that's a complex issue and not one that should come across as a happy ending.

Re: ... But it was me, an Internet Meme!

[(Anonymous)]

The problem is 'locking Tim Shaw up for eternity' is seen as better than execution. Because that's a complex issue and not one that should come across as a happy ending.
Oh, totally, no arguments there. Classic And I Must Scream situation, come on guys.

Re: ... But it was me, an Internet Meme!

[elisi]

All is harmony! :) (Between us, I mean.)