Thoughts.
If you came this way,
Taking any route, starting from anywhere,
At any time or at any season,
It would always be the same
(T.S. Eliot, Little Gidding - many apologies)
I had a sort of mini-epiphany. I've said that the show now feels [in texture] like Classic Who, and that you could jump from then to now with no problem.
And I think that's the thing. The show has been re-booted, but it's still anchor-less. There is no part of it that makes it a continuation of New Who. (Except for Thirteen wearing Twelve's clothes and the shorter format etc etc, that's not what I am talking about.)
So far Thirteen is absolutely the Doctor, no doubt about it, and she's brilliant, but like... sort of in parallel to the past? Her stories could be set at any point. She could be a Classic Doctor, like... a re-cast Five? And you needn't change a thing.
I'm not saying this is bad. But it means there is nothing that really grabs me.
So, instead of complaining I'm off to watch Classic Who! Watched Battlefield last night (S26, ep 1, Seven's final season) and loved it to pieces. Next up is Ghostlight which![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
thisbluespirit bought for me. ♥ And once I'm done with Seven I'll start on Six properly. Hurrah for the 50+ years of show!
Taking any route, starting from anywhere,
At any time or at any season,
It would always be the same
(T.S. Eliot, Little Gidding - many apologies)
I had a sort of mini-epiphany. I've said that the show now feels [in texture] like Classic Who, and that you could jump from then to now with no problem.
And I think that's the thing. The show has been re-booted, but it's still anchor-less. There is no part of it that makes it a continuation of New Who. (Except for Thirteen wearing Twelve's clothes and the shorter format etc etc, that's not what I am talking about.)
So far Thirteen is absolutely the Doctor, no doubt about it, and she's brilliant, but like... sort of in parallel to the past? Her stories could be set at any point. She could be a Classic Doctor, like... a re-cast Five? And you needn't change a thing.
I'm not saying this is bad. But it means there is nothing that really grabs me.
So, instead of complaining I'm off to watch Classic Who! Watched Battlefield last night (S26, ep 1, Seven's final season) and loved it to pieces. Next up is Ghostlight which
thisbluespirit bought for me. ♥ And once I'm done with Seven I'll start on Six properly. Hurrah for the 50+ years of show!
no subject
My comments are very biased and subjective! 10 out of 10 DW fans would argue with me. Although to be fair, they would also argue with the other 9.
In chronological order:
The Time Meddler (not especially meta, but the first time we meet another of the Doctor's race. Four parter and with rather a fun script and guest turn by Peter Butterworth, although I find it harder going than a lot of other, much less good serials for reasons I can't quite put my finger on. The Monk is great, though, and time travel is a feature.)
The Power of the Daleks (mainly Daleks, but the first regeneration & David Whittaker's always got excellent character focus, and it is at least now available in cartoon format, even if that gives me uncanny valley problems)
The War Games (I know it's 10 episodes, and again, more significant than meta-ish (first revelation of who the Doctor is and where he comes from), but it actually has enough plot to sustain itself and is excellent)
Three's era is more difficult to comment on because Barry Letts actually paints in quite a bit of backstory for the Doctor, which is generally fairly consistent (and some of it ties in with some of the glimpses of the child Doctor in Twe've's era) BUT it's often a case of six episodes of alien invasion to two brief backstory scenes, so YMMV. I merely point out some of where to look:
Terror of the Autons (again, fairly straightforward, but brings in the Master and the CIA)
(The Time Monster - I am not at all sure this is worth watching just for the Daisiest Daisy. Three would say yes, but basically up to your own personal Three-ometer levels Also involves time travel. Not great, though! But much loved by UNIT family fans.)
The Three Doctors (also here the Doctor gets the ability to pilot the TARDIS back and from now on can control it better, hence you can sometimes get more time travel elements, which was almost impossible previously)
(Carnival of Monsters - technically involves time travel as a plot point and some Time Lord backstory, but I'm not sure how much)
Planet of the Spiders (this is mythology/backstory central, but also comes with bonus epic 70s padding to end all padding, and the worst guest acting ever BUT it is pretty fundamental in who the Doctor is & wraps up some character points/continuity from The Green Death and Invasion of the Dinosaurs)
I know
The Deadly Assassin
The Face of Evil (not so much a mythology one, and I find it ploddingly directed, but the whole plot comes out of a thing Four did in Robot during his regeneration)
(Technically Image of the Fendahl has some ancient Gallifrey stuff, but rather gabbled in ep3. I love Image for other reasons, but it is not worth watching solely for that. This is a completist list, despite the obvious thing I will no doubt have omitted.)
Underworld. (Caveat: you don't want to watch Underworld! But there are some interesting ideas mixing the terrible consequences of Gallifreyan history and random Greek myths. If you are feeling completist, watch episode 1. If you watch eps 2-3 with the terrible CSO production nightmare in which everyone was literally trying to get through their lines while not falling over because of the budget crises where there wasn't one due to reasons, DO NOT BLAME ME. Episode 4 is okay.)
The Invasion of Time (I have to put this on here, but I'm not sure what vision of Gallifrey this is. Although, that said, what it does have, which is really great, is John Arnatt as Borusa, the Doctor's former teacher - in this incarnation, we can see a very plausible and interesting relationship between them. Plus, we get to see Outside on Gallifrey. It looks like a quarry)
(Sidenote for The Ribos Operation & Armageddon Factor which open and close out the Key to Time season and bring in the Black and White Guardians, who seem to be sort of like Time Lord Gods, but real, if mysterious. Graham Williams loved mythology stuff. It's a shame that he was frequently up against so much production crap, because his vision could have been rather fairy tale-ish and interesting, but he got hit by Inflation and Tom Baker's ego.)
Shada (I actually have not watched this yet - am stretching out my last precious Unwatched serials a bit but I gather it includes quite a bit of Time Lord mythology stuff and is also available in about four different versions, take your pick)
State of Decay (middle of the E-Space trilogy, but stands reasonably alone; some stuff about ancient Gallifreyan history and vampires that I rather loved when I watched it for the first time last year. I want to commit fic on the subject some time, which means it at least worked for me)
(Warrior's Gate (E-Space tril part 3) is not, but if you speculate that the Tharils are the E-Space's Time Lords, it all gets very meta. This is the one that is basically one of those baffling 1980s pop videos reimagined as a DW serial but genuinely great at the same time.)
Arc of Infinity (lots of Gallifreyan stuff, but also anti-matter chickens in Amsterdam, which says it all really, oh, and Colin Baker appears)
Mawdryn Undead (Guardian Trilogy pt 1 - I think this might be one of the most promising to try - multiple time zones, Time Lord history trouble, and past mythology returning. Although also people with spaghetti on their head...)
The Five Doctors (Required watching, if only for the ability to chorus "No, not the mind probe!" A.k.a the Anniversary Party of Rassilon with three Doctors, one imposter, and a wax dummy. Plus, the Time of the Doctor has a really nifty callback to a plotpoint from it. Play the Game of Rassilon if you will, but probably best not to play the Drinking Game of Rassilon as it could be hazardous to your health. Inserts Video of Rassilon)
(I have not watched The Twin Dilemma but I understand as well as being possibly the actual Worst Serial Ever, it also contains an old mentor of the Doctor's. They got drunk together??)
Trial of a Time Lord (next in line after Mawdryn, although obviously with the caveat that a lot of stuff fell through, messing up the ending (and some of Mindwarp). Even so, it might give some more of what you're looking for, and it's hard to be too hard on something where the lead writer died before he wrote the final installment and then the script editor resigned and ran off with the only existing draft of the ending, refusing to let anyone see it, so they had to get Pip & Jane Baker to rush in and do their best as a substitute.)
Bonus time travel for
The Chase (is a chase through time! The Daleks chase the Doctor in their Dalek time machine and most episodes have a new location. If you like the Ian-Barbara-One-Vicki line up, I think it's fun.)
The Daleks Master Plan is mostly missing, but the Daleks chase the Doctor across time again! With bonus plot and extra episodes! (We only have three episodes, though, so it's a bit hard to make out how it would have gone - some parts awesome, some parts terrible, plus fourth-wall breaking crack as far as we can tell)
The Evil of the Daleks - another David Whittaker Dalek script. It's again v good from what you can tell & the one surviving episodes. Might be worth a try if you can get hold of the BBC audio version, but those vary a lot on how visual the episode was (although they do have linking narrative recorded by the companions).
The Time Warrior
Time-Flight (another contender for worst story ever! Someone hi-jacks a Concorde to prehistory and the Master has even worse cunning disguise than usual)
Timelash (and another! Herbert is quite good, though, and I'm fond of the tacky tinsel tunnel and the sad glove puppet alien and the fact that Six apparently shows Peri his photo album on a regular basis, but YMMV. Ditto above.)
:-) (Please don't try to kill me later even if I probably deserve it!)
ETA: I should also note that I still have quite a few Pertwee-era gaps, so I may well be missing some more stuff there.
no subject
It's so beautiful. Thank you very much indeed. I shall be keeping this open in a tab in my 'currently watching' reference section.
Also I think this list takes in almost all the most hated stories, so it is boldly going where DW recs lists may never have gone before...
I feel so oddly proud about this. Though you did all the work, of course. #watching DW wrong
My comments are very biased and subjective! 10 out of 10 DW fans would argue with me. Although to be fair, they would also argue with the other 9.
*snort*
The War Games (I know it's 10 episodes, and again, more significant than meta-ish (first revelation of who the Doctor is and where he comes from), but it actually has enough plot to sustain itself and is excellent)
I have watched that one! I was talking with
Planet of the Spiders (this is mythology/backstory central, but also comes with bonus epic 70s padding to end all padding, and the worst guest acting ever BUT it is pretty fundamental in who the Doctor is & wraps up some character points/continuity from The Green Death and Invasion of the Dinosaurs)
This is the first good thing I've ever heard about that one. I've only ever seen it referenced as a punchline.
I know [personal profile] elisi has seen it, but if I'm being completist, I have to at least nod to Genesis of the Daleks for origin stories, CIA interference, the first real non-TARDIS time travel and "Do I have the right?" (but also TERRY NATION OH GOD. sorry.)
That is the next thing I'm watching, so we're covered!
Underworld. (Caveat: you don't want to watch Underworld! But there are some interesting ideas mixing the terrible consequences of Gallifreyan history and random Greek myths. If you are feeling completist, watch episode 1. If you watch eps 2-3 with the terrible CSO production nightmare in which everyone was literally trying to get through their lines while not falling over because of the budget crises where there wasn't one due to reasons, DO NOT BLAME ME. Episode 4 is okay.)
Oh man, *giggles* I am exactly the kind of person who this sort of thing makes me want to drop everything and watch this immediately. BUT I HAVE BEEN DULY WARNED.
Graham Williams loved mythology stuff. It's a shame that he was frequently up against so much production crap, because his vision could have been rather fairy tale-ish and interesting, but he got hit by Inflation and Tom Baker's ego.
*whiney noises* That sounds great.
(Warrior's Gate (E-Space tril part 3) is not, but if you speculate that the Tharils are the E-Space's Time Lords, it all gets very meta.
Thank you, I absolutely will!
Arc of Infinity (lots of Gallifreyan stuff, but also anti-matter chickens in Amsterdam, which says it all really, oh, and Colin Baker appears)
You know those moments when you're like 'what would someone think if they walked by right now with not idea what we're talking about?'
Mawdryn Undead (Guardian Trilogy pt 1 - I think this might be one of the most promising to try - multiple time zones, Time Lord history trouble, and past mythology returning. Although also people with spaghetti on their head...)
Yes, it all sounds yummy. Including the spaghetti.
Play the Game of Rassilon if you will, but probably best not to play the Drinking Game of Rassilon as it could be hazardous to your health. Inserts Video of Rassilon)
*helpless giggles*
Even so, it might give some more of what you're looking for, and it's hard to be too hard on something where the lead writer died before he wrote the final installment and then the script editor resigned and ran off with the only existing draft of the ending, refusing to let anyone see it, so they had to get Pip & Jane Baker to rush in and do their best as a substitute.)
Oh dear, that does sound tragically doomed.
plus fourth-wall breaking crack as far as we can tell
Oh, I love fourth-wall breaking crack. So much.
:-) (Please don't try to kill me later even if I probably deserve it!)
I shall do my very best. But this is the most exciting list of Classic Who suggestions I have ever seen, so.
no subject
It does include some typical classics as well, but yeah. It's a very odd list to make, but fun & I think it should be said that I just love all DW hopelessly. I have my preferences, and my objective self will criticise much of it & rate things as much as any fanboy, but my heart was lost a long time ago. So if you turn out to really like anything I've been v flippant about here, know that I actually like it, and have probably watched it ten times already. (I even watch Underworld, although I do fast-forward the middle two episodes, because there are limits).
This is the first good thing I've ever heard about that one. I've only ever seen it referenced as a punchline.
The thing with Planet of the Spiders is that it has huge amounts of padding and the Two-legs on Metebelis 3 really are the worst guest actors. (I'm not sure why - I've seen some of them being fine in other things, so who knows what behind the scenes stuff was going on, I don't want to be mean to the poor souls stuck in what were always going to be thankless roles). However, it was written by Barry Letts and he does tie in a lot of Three's story thematically, with things he had seeded in previous stories (The Green Death, which is awesome, and Invasion of the Dinosaurs, which has pretty much the same greatness/padding ratio as Spiders, only with terrible CSO dinosaurs). So, it's a mix and there are also some things that hover on offensive (not unusually), and I don't want to spoiler stuff, but it is a good thematic ending for Three and the regeneration scene is one of the best even now. So, yeah, it's an odd one to place, which is why I wouldn't normally put it on a recs list, but if we're looking at things from this angle, then it's also got a lot that's worth watching for. It is a real mix, though.
Oh man, *giggles* I am exactly the kind of person who this sort of thing makes me want to drop everything and watch this immediately. BUT I HAVE BEEN DULY WARNED.
It has Leela in it, so it can't be the absolute worst, but the CSO really is that bad and the poor actors were literally going out onto green baize flooring and trying not to fall over while saying their lines without the usual rehearsal period in order to get it done. I have the DVD and the making of is an exciting epic, while the actual serial is considerably less so!
fairy tale-ish and interesting, but he got hit by Inflation and Tom Baker's ego.
*whiney noises* That sounds great.
He started out with a budget crisis, as Philip Hinchcliffe had overspent the previous year before leaving and then wound up battling the inflation crisis in the late 70s, plus the strikes, power cuts and three day weeks. Tom Baker also took against him (Hinchcliffe had worked with him really well and I think hadn't really wanted to go, but the BBC just randomly moved producers round at the time), although I should add that Tom in latter years really regrets that things went to his head as they did, and that Graham Williams having died, he never got the chance to apologise to him as he has to others.
I mean, some of Williams's stuff could be random, but it would definitely have been extremely interesting to have seen what Williams and Douglas Adams would have done between them if they had not been simultaneously battling strikes, inflation, and on occasion, Tom. But he does seem to have been the first Classic Who producer to actually have been keen on the potential mythology of the Time Lords and the universe the Doctor operated in - like Barry Letts, he had also been a writer himself, which seems to make a difference to how they both approached it, but Barry Letts was keen on characterisation and green issues and things like that, while Graham Williams seems to have had a more fantastical bent in there.
Obviously, DW was made so differently then, and one of the things is that the producer/script writer team would commission scripts in advance, the BBC would then move them on (sometimes without warning and against their preferences) and the incoming team would then have to produce 4-6 serials that were the brainchild of the previous team, so you get this odd effect of each era merging into the next, and, sometimes, if they weren't permitted to stay very long, they almost only leave this odd echo of the scripts they commissioned that got made by somebody else. (Derrick Sherwin, for instance, set up UNIT and cast Liz Shaw and was excited about the whole thing, and got moved on before even the second serial of S7, and Terrance Dicks and Barry Letts moved in and had three more seven parters to make with the Doctor stuck on earth, while wanting to get time travelling again.) It's a funny thing, but it adds to the variety. Meta here is a giant jigsaw where you're not even sure the pieces belong to the same puzzle, but it's amazing what you can do with them (and some bits do fit together beautifully as planned). It's been a fun game, I think, anyway!
no subject
It has Leela in it, so it can't be the absolute worst, but the CSO really is that bad and the poor actors were literally going out onto green baize flooring and trying not to fall over while saying their lines without the usual rehearsal period in order to get it done. I have the DVD and the making of is an exciting epic, while the actual serial is considerably less so!
I didn't think it was a bad one, overall? That special effects are lolarious, but the story I thought was totally on par for the era. And it had Leela in it, as you say, so I frankly don't much care what else goes on.
I mean, some of Williams's stuff could be random, but it would definitely have been extremely interesting to have seen what Williams and Douglas Adams would have done between them if they had not been simultaneously battling strikes, inflation, and on occasion, Tom.
Sadly, I did not like that era nearly as much as I was hoping too. And Romana fell a bit flat for me as well (In fairness, she does have the thankless task of living up to her reputation, whereas I went into Leela's episodes with zero expectations and was blown away.) I do mourn for the Douglass Adams scripts that might have been, but I think most of the other writers didn't really have the comedic chops to pull off lighter Doctor Who? City of Death and Shada were great, Ribos Operation was good fun, Power of Kroll was just a solid, normal episode of the kind that could fit in any season, but most of the rest of it . . . just felt a bit insipid to me? And, yeah, Tom Baker's descent into hammier and hammier acting did not impress.
Obviously, DW was made so differently then, and one of the things is that the producer/script writer team would commission scripts in advance, the BBC would then move them on (sometimes without warning and against their preferences) and the incoming team would then have to produce 4-6 serials that were the brainchild of the previous team, so you get this odd effect of each era merging into the next
This has been super interesting and I'm glad you pointed it out to me. Such an odd change from our New Who mindset of giving each showrunner a clean slate. On the other hand, I kind of like the gradual transitionings and the odd, mixed seasons. (Season 18 thrilled me so immensely because suddenly Tom Baker was actually trying to act again and the scripts were so much better, omg and I knew that we were under new management and thus that I was probably going to like Five's era.
no subject
The underlying story is pretty decent, but it's the sheer amount of bad CSO and running down tunnels in the middle that tends to defeat nearly everyone, so yeah. But, as you say, Leela! I am also amused that team TARDIS start out in a really bad mood for no reason. (They read the script?)
Sadly, I did not like that era nearly as much as I was hoping to
It's a very mixed era, but I'd like to have seen how it went without all the crises - Graham Williams started with Philip Hinchcliffe leaving while having overspent all the budget already, Tom Baker was going off the rails, and rl chimed in with inflation crises and strikes, so it's kind of amazing there is any good stuff in there.
It seems fashionable now to hate the Hinchcliffe/Holmes period and love the Williams/Adams one (it was the reverse when I was first in fandom), but much as I enjoy a bit of fairytale and whimsy, I can't really agree overall, either. There are too many stories that should have been better, although, again, probably mainly due the combination of the above, which the producer-scriptwriter teams weren't to blame for. (One of the DVDs has a really interesting documentary about some of Graham Williams's ideas & how he was fascinated by possibly mythologies for the show and I was very struck - although, of course, how they would have worked, or if they'd have been any good, who knows? But as it turns out, it was the era of needing to do emergency surgery on the budget & JNT could do that, but Graham Williams was a writer first, and just couldn't, not in those circumstances.
That said, I clearly enjoy Key to Time overall more than you! (But, hey, I like nearly all of Classic Who anyway. :-D)
and the scripts were so much better, omg and I knew that we were under new management and thus that I was probably going to like Five's era.
I like Five a lot, too. I wish Chris Bidmead had stayed longer. He was weird, but it was the right kind of weird for DW!
no subject
My other big winners have been Genesis of the Daleks, Face of Evil, Horror of Fang Rock (mostly for Leela and Four'n'Leela, the story was whatever), City of Death, Shada, the whole arc from Warrior's Gate to Castrovalva, Kinda (runner up for best thing ever: Classic Who edition), and Snakedance.
(I started from Four and have been watching straight through. I'm up to Terminus.)
no subject
LOL, that's brilliant. I want my Official Librarian badge back now. :-D It's a fun one, and gets underrated a lot, I think.
My other big winners have been Genesis of the Daleks, Face of Evil, Horror of Fang Rock (mostly for Leela and Four'n'Leela, the story was whatever), City of Death, Shada, the whole arc from Warrior's Gate to Castrovalva, Kinda (runner up for best thing ever: Classic Who edition), and Snakedance.
A nice mix! You even liked some big fan favourites; is that too heretical for you? Kinda is definitely amazing, though, and Snakedance, too - always high on my list! (One of my big Eric Saward grudges is that, as script editor, he convinced Chris Bailey who wrote those two that he was a rubbish script writer, and that was that. *shakes fist at Eric Saward*)
(I'm not sure whether I'm not relieved or disappointed that you didn't love Underworld, though, but honestly nobody can love that much CSO. Not even for Leela, who is indeed awesome.)
I started from Four and have been watching straight through. I'm up to Terminus.
That's impressive speed! Good luck with Terminus. I expect Nyssa will be removing her clothes any time soon. Oh, and then Enlightenment!
no subject
*pins badge on you with all due pomp and circumstance*
It was just so full of different things! And all of them were interesting! And actual, proper, timey-wimey such as would do Moff proud <3 Could not be happier with it.
You even liked some big fan favourites; is that too heretical for you?
Lol. No, I've no problem with liking the things everybody thinks are great (the crowd is right sometimes). I'm just never too surprised when I find myself disagreeing with everybody.
(I think I'm also with the consensus agreement that the stories set on Gallifrey are a bit dull? But I do like them for the background they provide.)
Kinda is definitely amazing, though, and Snakedance, too - always high on my list! (One of my big Eric Saward grudges is that, as script editor, he convinced Chris Bailey who wrote those two that he was a rubbish script writer, and that was that. *shakes fist at Eric Saward*)
This is villainy of the highest order. Alas for what could have been!
(I'm not sure whether I'm not relieved or disappointed that you didn't love Underworld, though, but honestly nobody can love that much CSO. Not even for Leela, who is indeed awesome.)
I liked a lot of the ideas in it quite a lot! (and its connection to Face of Evil with the Time Lords/the Doctor screwing up a whole civilization with their careless interference--that was great). But the script was only middling and the execution indeed awful, so . . . I'd watch it again, sometime.
That's impressive speed! Good luck with Terminus. I expect Nyssa will be removing her clothes any time soon. Oh, and then Enlightenment!
Yeah, I'm through three episodes and she just spontaneously dropped her skirt and I was like . . . huh ?!?!? (Will that get explained, or did I miss something, or is it just weird?)
no subject
*nods* And that's pretty much my feelings about them, too.
Yeah, I'm through three episodes and she just spontaneously dropped her skirt and I was like . . . huh ?!?!? (Will that get explained, or did I miss something, or is it just weird?)
I believe the explanation in-verse is that she's feeling ill and getting hot and, she says, "My stomach feels so distended!" (er, as one does). The real reason was that someone wrote in to complain about having covered up the companions too much since Leela's day, and Janet Fielding and Sarah Sutton both got stuck with more revealing outfits, plus Nyssa casting off her garments. Mind you, to be fair, at some point Turlough will also strip off for equality! /o\